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Re: [CalontirDance] Starting tempo for Korobushka?

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  • Katriana
    Tsire Tuzevo wrote: [...] ... certainly is fun ... Tsire, my line always used to be well, the Hustle and the Bunny Hop are... I said that once too often at
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 27 6:59 PM
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      Tsire Tuzevo wrote:
      [...]
      > we can add "traditional" Lindy Hop to our next dance event because it
      certainly is fun
      > and I've certainly been doing that a long time too.

      Tsire, my line always used to be "well, the Hustle and the Bunny Hop are..."
      I said that once too often at Pennsic, and, well... Did you know you can
      do the Bunny Hop with Italian Dance Steps?
      http://www.calonsong.org/Dancestuff/saltarello_di_lapino.htm

      katriana
      keeper of odd stuff
    • Bill Morris
      Look, now you ve pressed one of My buttons. If we dismiss everything which isn t well documented, then we ll have to toss out much of the Inns of court, the
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 27 7:03 PM
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        Look, now you've pressed one of My buttons.

        If we dismiss everything which isn't well documented, then we'll have to
        toss out much of the Inns of court, the early Burgundian, and even Arbeau.
        There are so many ambiguities in the primary sources that many of our dances
        are at best wild guesses. As far as I know, none of our sources were
        intended to provide authoritative instruction to students without the aid of
        teachers and a living tradition. Even Playford has more then a few sticky
        points, and it blows away most of the other sources.

        On a more philosophical note, and just as a personal preference. I like to
        see people with Scandinavian persona's attempting to do the best
        reconstruction we can do of Scandi dancing, etc. We know that there was
        dancing during the time of the Icelandic family sagas. And we're pretty
        sure that it didn't bear much resemblance to Negri and Caroso. So if you're
        trying to avoid in-authenticity...

        Also I refuse to just give up. If we know that 12th century Bohemians
        danced at harvest festivals, then there must space in the SCA for the best
        available re-creations of 12th century Bohemian dance. Even if the best
        documentation would make a hippopotamus gag.

        Another more subtle problem we all face is that we are trying to re-create
        mostly social dance forms, not performance traditions. If, for instance, we
        are re-creating an authentic Elizabethan feast with dancing, then the period
        thing is for the dancing to be done by the populace, not by a small group
        that is specially trained and rehearsed. Hasapikos might very well be done
        at a medieval Greek wedding. But it would be done by the wedding guests,
        not by performers.

        Mableth
      • Bill Morris
        I agree that, if possible, we would prefer to use period dance. My point was that if we _must_ have Korbushka (tune documentable to early 19th century
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 27 7:03 PM
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          I agree that, if possible, we would prefer to use period dance.

          My point was that if we _must_ have Korbushka (tune documentable to early
          19th century according to some references of my Dad's), then it would be
          preferable to do something that is at least _possibly_ compatible with
          period practice, instead of the English Country dance version which is about
          as period as a Monty Python sketch.

          There is a big difference between good and bad. However there is also a big
          difference between bad and worse.

          Mableth



          -----Original Message-----
          From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com]
          On Behalf Of Tsire Tuzevo
          Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:00 AM
          To: calontirdance@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [CalontirDance] Starting tempo for Korobushka?

          CAUTION: Mableth has inadvertently hit one of Tsire's BIG RED BUTTONS OF
          DANCE DOOM!

          "Traditional" undocumented vs broadway legend undocumented is, well,
          undocumented to just about the same degree. Attempting to create a case for
          legitimacy for this seriously out of period dance by introducing 'Slavic
          Traditional' steps goes counter to the goal of enhancing the living history
          of our period through dance. This is frustrating and muddles the fun vs
          period false argument that I constantly hear.
          It is possible that I'm beating a dead horse uphill both ways in the snow
          here. If that is the case we can add "traditional" Lindy Hop to our next
          dance event because it certainly is fun and I've certainly been doing that a
          long time too. In my head, the out of period Korobushka, Slavic steps or no,
          is equally the outlier. I'm in no way upset at Mableth, he's just making a
          suggestion. I'm just frustrated that this is even still a viable idea in SCA
          dance with all the researchable, documentable, knock-your-socks-off dancing
          available.

          Thanks for indulging me in my Big Red Button Rant Folks - Now back to your
          regularly scheduled DanceList.
          Tsire
        • Tsire Tuzevo
          Mableth, I admire your zeal and your goals. Generally what I m talking about here is not doing the known documented out of period things. Korobushka s music is
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 28 8:06 AM
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            Mableth,

            I admire your zeal and your goals.

            Generally what I'm talking about here is not doing the known documented out of period things. Korobushka's music is known and documented to the early 19th century. This should not get a pass, especially with the 'fun' or 'traditional' arguments. I'll make and attempt on Orchesographie, Noblita, and other in-period primary sources for this reason as well. They are known and documented to the time period rather than definitively outside it.
            As for your notes about who's dancing what where - who's English dinner are we at? If it's peasantry you may be correct, if it's the court and nobles ( as we all attempt to be) then late in our period we'd be dong imported Italian dances. Evidence of dance classes being a strong part of the noble culture in England is quite easy to find. You may want to check up on the assertion that the English weren't doing performance dance. Also Check Orchesographie for performance dance from France and Caroso, Dominico and Negri for performance dance from a similar time frame in Italy. Heck check the Nuremberg manuscripts too, there's a lovely set of confused reconstructions of italian and French dances in there as well as a treatise on how awful it is to dance Italian dance and be German. It's my favorite kind of evidence that something was done. It has to be done to be complained about. Much like our beloved and reviled Korobushka.



            Katriona -

            Let me see a tripple step into an aerial flip in Italian steps - Bring it on baby! Bring it on!

            Tsire


            _________________________________________________________________
            Discover the new Windows Vista
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          • Rowan
            SNIP there s a lovely set of confused reconstructions of italian and French dances in there as well as a treatise on how awful it is to dance Italian dance and
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 28 1:04 PM
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              SNIP
              there's a lovely set of confused reconstructions of italian and French
              dances in there as well as a treatise on how awful it is to dance Italian
              dance and be German. It's my favorite kind of evidence that something was
              done. It has to be done to be complained about.
              SNIP

              I always was partial to the church proscriptions and bans as the evidence
              for something being done. If the church says its a Sin then you know it
              must have been popular! ;)

              HL Rowan Houndskeeper
              (Is that better Conna? :)
              Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir
              rowan@...

              "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too
              dark to read." - Groucho Marx


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Christian M. Cepel
              Did the Vatican keep records of excommunications? You don t want those evil gits from sneaking back in by the back door... It s a good idea to keep records.
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 28 1:14 PM
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                Did the Vatican keep records of excommunications? You don't want those
                evil gits from sneaking back in by the back door... It's a good idea to
                keep records. Dancing minions of Satan!

                Rowan wrote:
                > SNIP
                > there's a lovely set of confused reconstructions of italian and French
                > dances in there as well as a treatise on how awful it is to dance Italian
                > dance and be German. It's my favorite kind of evidence that something was
                > done. It has to be done to be complained about.
                > SNIP
                >
                > I always was partial to the church proscriptions and bans as the evidence
                > for something being done. If the church says its a Sin then you know it
                > must have been popular! ;)
                >
                > HL Rowan Houndskeeper
                > (Is that better Conna? :)
                > Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir
                > rowan@...
                >
                > "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too
                > dark to read." - Groucho Marx
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >

                --
                Christian M. Cepel - Thistledowne Productions - http://thistledowne.org
                Computer Support Specialist, Sr. - University of Missouri - Columbia
                College of Education - School of Info Science & Learning Technologies
                VRCbd, KidTools & StrategyTools Support Systems Projects, and Truman,
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