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RE: [CalontirDance] Starting tempo for Korobushka?

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  • Tsire Tuzevo
    CAUTION: Mableth has inadvertently hit one of Tsire s BIG RED BUTTONS OF DANCE DOOM! Traditional undocumented vs broadway legend undocumented is, well,
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 27, 2007
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      CAUTION: Mableth has inadvertently hit one of Tsire's BIG RED BUTTONS OF DANCE DOOM!

      "Traditional" undocumented vs broadway legend undocumented is, well, undocumented to just about the same degree. Attempting to create a case for legitimacy for this seriously out of period dance by introducing 'Slavic Traditional' steps goes counter to the goal of enhancing the living history of our period through dance. This is frustrating and muddles the fun vs period false argument that I constantly hear.
      It is possible that I'm beating a dead horse uphill both ways in the snow here. If that is the case we can add "traditional" Lindy Hop to our next dance event because it certainly is fun and I've certainly been doing that a long time too. In my head, the out of period Korobushka, Slavic steps or no, is equally the outlier. I'm in no way upset at Mableth, he's just making a suggestion. I'm just frustrated that this is even still a viable idea in SCA dance with all the researchable, documentable, knock-your-socks-off dancing available.

      Thanks for indulging me in my Big Red Button Rant Folks - Now back to your regularly scheduled DanceList.
      Tsire


      To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.comFrom: billyamymorris@...: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 18:51:39 -0600Subject: RE: [CalontirDance] Starting tempo for Korobushka?




      Any chance of doing the older (Slavic) steps to Korobushka? I realizethey're still not documentable, but they fit the music, and they'retraditional (i.e. nobody knows how old they are).Mableth-----Original Message-----From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Christian M. CepelSent: Monday, February 26, 2007 1:39 PMTo: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [CalontirDance] Starting tempo for Korobushka?Good advice, and yes, I will be at Bellwode even if I have to move mountains (real mountains, not Missouri mountains) to get there. I hope to very much be involved and if anything can be done to improve/correct any of my efforts, I'll surely accept with much gratitude.Based on the step-close, step-close thing it seems that even Crotchet = 102 wouldn't be too agonizing and would leave a good amount of headroom for acceleration before feet start smoking. I think I'll go with this for now unless someone has better ideas and go ahead and publish to the web.Available for review in the next half hour or so at http://music.shireofthestandingstones.org/index.php?Content=MusicTsire Tuzevo wrote:> Some notes on Korobushka from the Dance perspective:> As much as I despise the popularity of such an out of period thing, I dothink the 'Tetris' music is some cool stuff to play. As for tempo: I likemost ECD at about 120. For the speed-it-up dances you have to be careful tostart it slowly enough to have some where to speed up to, but fast enoughthat the dancers don't have to defy gravity to extend steps. In one measure,the dancer steps and closes 2 times. Think about walking, stepping once perbeat, and you can figure out what will feel comfortable, slow but not tooslow, moderate-comfy, fast and insane. > Generally I will visit with a Pit Chief before a ball to set tempi asearly in the process as makes him or her feel comfortable. If you will be atBellwode Symposium, I'd be happy to sit and do a tempo check with you or youcan sit in on the one the Conna and I will inevitably do before the eveningdancing. > Tsire>>> To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.comFrom: christian@...: Mon, 26Feb 2007 11:43:25 -0600Subject: [CalontirDance] Starting tempo forKorobushka?>>>>> I haven't heard this played in a long time by a dance ensemble, so I can'tremember where they began the tempo at and accelerated from. I like the wayit flows at crotchet = 120, but since it accelerates, I was wondering if theinitial tempo marking should be perhaps something like crotchet = 108? I'msure the musicians can play it at nosebleed speed, but I've never danced toit so I've no idea what is reasonable. This is the last detail I need tohammer out before putting it up on the site.Man I soooo need a newer versionof Finale. If anyone knows how to suppress/hide 3 of the 4 staves in a groupin a system (not all systems) in Finale 2001d I'd love to know how... Idon't believe it's possible. The whole thing fits well on a single page, butif I was able to lose those three staves on the intro line, it would give metons of room to increase the size of the note elements, spacing betweenstaves and spacing between systems. May have to break into the musicschool's computer lab for a quick edit.-- Christian M. Cepel - ThistledowneProductions - http://thistledowne.orgComputer Support Specialist, Sr. -University of Missouri - ColumbiaCollege of Education - School of InfoScience & Learning TechnologiesVRCbd, KidTools & StrategyTools SupportSystems Projects, and Truman,Library Whistlestop Project - Web Design &Programming - 573.999.2370 >


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    • Carol O'Connell
      ... When Contantia plays the ³Duck Dance² on recorder, it sounds really medieval... ;) Conna [Non-text portions of this message have been
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 27, 2007
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        On 2/27/07 8:59 AM, "Tsire Tuzevo" <tsire@...> wrote:

        > CAUTION: Mableth has inadvertently hit one of Tsire's BIG RED BUTTONS OF
        > DANCE DOOM!
        <giant snip>

        When Contantia plays the ³Duck Dance² on recorder, it sounds really
        medieval...

        ;)

        Conna



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Katriana
        Tsire Tuzevo wrote: [...] ... certainly is fun ... Tsire, my line always used to be well, the Hustle and the Bunny Hop are... I said that once too often at
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 27, 2007
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          Tsire Tuzevo wrote:
          [...]
          > we can add "traditional" Lindy Hop to our next dance event because it
          certainly is fun
          > and I've certainly been doing that a long time too.

          Tsire, my line always used to be "well, the Hustle and the Bunny Hop are..."
          I said that once too often at Pennsic, and, well... Did you know you can
          do the Bunny Hop with Italian Dance Steps?
          http://www.calonsong.org/Dancestuff/saltarello_di_lapino.htm

          katriana
          keeper of odd stuff
        • Bill Morris
          Look, now you ve pressed one of My buttons. If we dismiss everything which isn t well documented, then we ll have to toss out much of the Inns of court, the
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 27, 2007
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            Look, now you've pressed one of My buttons.

            If we dismiss everything which isn't well documented, then we'll have to
            toss out much of the Inns of court, the early Burgundian, and even Arbeau.
            There are so many ambiguities in the primary sources that many of our dances
            are at best wild guesses. As far as I know, none of our sources were
            intended to provide authoritative instruction to students without the aid of
            teachers and a living tradition. Even Playford has more then a few sticky
            points, and it blows away most of the other sources.

            On a more philosophical note, and just as a personal preference. I like to
            see people with Scandinavian persona's attempting to do the best
            reconstruction we can do of Scandi dancing, etc. We know that there was
            dancing during the time of the Icelandic family sagas. And we're pretty
            sure that it didn't bear much resemblance to Negri and Caroso. So if you're
            trying to avoid in-authenticity...

            Also I refuse to just give up. If we know that 12th century Bohemians
            danced at harvest festivals, then there must space in the SCA for the best
            available re-creations of 12th century Bohemian dance. Even if the best
            documentation would make a hippopotamus gag.

            Another more subtle problem we all face is that we are trying to re-create
            mostly social dance forms, not performance traditions. If, for instance, we
            are re-creating an authentic Elizabethan feast with dancing, then the period
            thing is for the dancing to be done by the populace, not by a small group
            that is specially trained and rehearsed. Hasapikos might very well be done
            at a medieval Greek wedding. But it would be done by the wedding guests,
            not by performers.

            Mableth
          • Bill Morris
            I agree that, if possible, we would prefer to use period dance. My point was that if we _must_ have Korbushka (tune documentable to early 19th century
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 27, 2007
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              I agree that, if possible, we would prefer to use period dance.

              My point was that if we _must_ have Korbushka (tune documentable to early
              19th century according to some references of my Dad's), then it would be
              preferable to do something that is at least _possibly_ compatible with
              period practice, instead of the English Country dance version which is about
              as period as a Monty Python sketch.

              There is a big difference between good and bad. However there is also a big
              difference between bad and worse.

              Mableth



              -----Original Message-----
              From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com]
              On Behalf Of Tsire Tuzevo
              Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:00 AM
              To: calontirdance@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [CalontirDance] Starting tempo for Korobushka?

              CAUTION: Mableth has inadvertently hit one of Tsire's BIG RED BUTTONS OF
              DANCE DOOM!

              "Traditional" undocumented vs broadway legend undocumented is, well,
              undocumented to just about the same degree. Attempting to create a case for
              legitimacy for this seriously out of period dance by introducing 'Slavic
              Traditional' steps goes counter to the goal of enhancing the living history
              of our period through dance. This is frustrating and muddles the fun vs
              period false argument that I constantly hear.
              It is possible that I'm beating a dead horse uphill both ways in the snow
              here. If that is the case we can add "traditional" Lindy Hop to our next
              dance event because it certainly is fun and I've certainly been doing that a
              long time too. In my head, the out of period Korobushka, Slavic steps or no,
              is equally the outlier. I'm in no way upset at Mableth, he's just making a
              suggestion. I'm just frustrated that this is even still a viable idea in SCA
              dance with all the researchable, documentable, knock-your-socks-off dancing
              available.

              Thanks for indulging me in my Big Red Button Rant Folks - Now back to your
              regularly scheduled DanceList.
              Tsire
            • Tsire Tuzevo
              Mableth, I admire your zeal and your goals. Generally what I m talking about here is not doing the known documented out of period things. Korobushka s music is
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 28, 2007
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                Mableth,

                I admire your zeal and your goals.

                Generally what I'm talking about here is not doing the known documented out of period things. Korobushka's music is known and documented to the early 19th century. This should not get a pass, especially with the 'fun' or 'traditional' arguments. I'll make and attempt on Orchesographie, Noblita, and other in-period primary sources for this reason as well. They are known and documented to the time period rather than definitively outside it.
                As for your notes about who's dancing what where - who's English dinner are we at? If it's peasantry you may be correct, if it's the court and nobles ( as we all attempt to be) then late in our period we'd be dong imported Italian dances. Evidence of dance classes being a strong part of the noble culture in England is quite easy to find. You may want to check up on the assertion that the English weren't doing performance dance. Also Check Orchesographie for performance dance from France and Caroso, Dominico and Negri for performance dance from a similar time frame in Italy. Heck check the Nuremberg manuscripts too, there's a lovely set of confused reconstructions of italian and French dances in there as well as a treatise on how awful it is to dance Italian dance and be German. It's my favorite kind of evidence that something was done. It has to be done to be complained about. Much like our beloved and reviled Korobushka.



                Katriona -

                Let me see a tripple step into an aerial flip in Italian steps - Bring it on baby! Bring it on!

                Tsire


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              • Rowan
                SNIP there s a lovely set of confused reconstructions of italian and French dances in there as well as a treatise on how awful it is to dance Italian dance and
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 28, 2007
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                  SNIP
                  there's a lovely set of confused reconstructions of italian and French
                  dances in there as well as a treatise on how awful it is to dance Italian
                  dance and be German. It's my favorite kind of evidence that something was
                  done. It has to be done to be complained about.
                  SNIP

                  I always was partial to the church proscriptions and bans as the evidence
                  for something being done. If the church says its a Sin then you know it
                  must have been popular! ;)

                  HL Rowan Houndskeeper
                  (Is that better Conna? :)
                  Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir
                  rowan@...

                  "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too
                  dark to read." - Groucho Marx


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Christian M. Cepel
                  Did the Vatican keep records of excommunications? You don t want those evil gits from sneaking back in by the back door... It s a good idea to keep records.
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 28, 2007
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                    Did the Vatican keep records of excommunications? You don't want those
                    evil gits from sneaking back in by the back door... It's a good idea to
                    keep records. Dancing minions of Satan!

                    Rowan wrote:
                    > SNIP
                    > there's a lovely set of confused reconstructions of italian and French
                    > dances in there as well as a treatise on how awful it is to dance Italian
                    > dance and be German. It's my favorite kind of evidence that something was
                    > done. It has to be done to be complained about.
                    > SNIP
                    >
                    > I always was partial to the church proscriptions and bans as the evidence
                    > for something being done. If the church says its a Sin then you know it
                    > must have been popular! ;)
                    >
                    > HL Rowan Houndskeeper
                    > (Is that better Conna? :)
                    > Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir
                    > rowan@...
                    >
                    > "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too
                    > dark to read." - Groucho Marx
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    --
                    Christian M. Cepel - Thistledowne Productions - http://thistledowne.org
                    Computer Support Specialist, Sr. - University of Missouri - Columbia
                    College of Education - School of Info Science & Learning Technologies
                    VRCbd, KidTools & StrategyTools Support Systems Projects, and Truman,
                    Library Whistlestop Project - Web Design & Programming - 573.999.2370
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