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RE: [CalontirDance] Starting tempo for Korobushka?

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  • Bill Morris
    Any chance of doing the older (Slavic) steps to Korobushka? I realize they re still not documentable, but they fit the music, and they re traditional (i.e.
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 26, 2007
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      Any chance of doing the older (Slavic) steps to Korobushka? I realize
      they're still not documentable, but they fit the music, and they're
      traditional (i.e. nobody knows how old they are).

      Mableth

      -----Original Message-----
      From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com]
      On Behalf Of Christian M. Cepel
      Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 1:39 PM
      To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [CalontirDance] Starting tempo for Korobushka?

      Good advice, and yes, I will be at Bellwode even if I have to move
      mountains (real mountains, not Missouri mountains) to get there. I hope
      to very much be involved and if anything can be done to improve/correct
      any of my efforts, I'll surely accept with much gratitude.

      Based on the step-close, step-close thing it seems that even Crotchet =
      102 wouldn't be too agonizing and would leave a good amount of headroom
      for acceleration before feet start smoking. I think I'll go with this
      for now unless someone has better ideas and go ahead and publish to the web.

      Available for review in the next half hour or so at
      http://music.shireofthestandingstones.org/index.php?Content=Music



      Tsire Tuzevo wrote:
      > Some notes on Korobushka from the Dance perspective:
      > As much as I despise the popularity of such an out of period thing, I do
      think the 'Tetris' music is some cool stuff to play. As for tempo: I like
      most ECD at about 120. For the speed-it-up dances you have to be careful to
      start it slowly enough to have some where to speed up to, but fast enough
      that the dancers don't have to defy gravity to extend steps. In one measure,
      the dancer steps and closes 2 times. Think about walking, stepping once per
      beat, and you can figure out what will feel comfortable, slow but not too
      slow, moderate-comfy, fast and insane.
      > Generally I will visit with a Pit Chief before a ball to set tempi as
      early in the process as makes him or her feel comfortable. If you will be at
      Bellwode Symposium, I'd be happy to sit and do a tempo check with you or you
      can sit in on the one the Conna and I will inevitably do before the evening
      dancing.
      > Tsire
      >
      >
      > To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.comFrom: christian@...: Mon, 26
      Feb 2007 11:43:25 -0600Subject: [CalontirDance] Starting tempo for
      Korobushka?
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > I haven't heard this played in a long time by a dance ensemble, so I can't
      remember where they began the tempo at and accelerated from. I like the way
      it flows at crotchet = 120, but since it accelerates, I was wondering if the
      initial tempo marking should be perhaps something like crotchet = 108? I'm
      sure the musicians can play it at nosebleed speed, but I've never danced to
      it so I've no idea what is reasonable. This is the last detail I need to
      hammer out before putting it up on the site.Man I soooo need a newer version
      of Finale. If anyone knows how to suppress/hide 3 of the 4 staves in a group
      in a system (not all systems) in Finale 2001d I'd love to know how... I
      don't believe it's possible. The whole thing fits well on a single page, but
      if I was able to lose those three staves on the intro line, it would give me
      tons of room to increase the size of the note elements, spacing between
      staves and spacing between systems. May have to break into the music
      school's computer lab for a quick edit.-- Christian M. Cepel - Thistledowne
      Productions - http://thistledowne.orgComputer Support Specialist, Sr. -
      University of Missouri - ColumbiaCollege of Education - School of Info
      Science & Learning TechnologiesVRCbd, KidTools & StrategyTools Support
      Systems Projects, and Truman,Library Whistlestop Project - Web Design &
      Programming - 573.999.2370
      >
    • Christian M. Cepel
      We have some cheese and lunchmeat products in the tray of our fridge that I think are Traditional. Ok.... to give this some legitimate content and because I
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 26, 2007
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        We have some cheese and lunchmeat products in the tray of our fridge
        that I think are Traditional.

        Ok.... to give this some legitimate content and because I wanted to but
        forgot to include it in the previous posting, I'm needing some help with
        the clefts in the original.... They are all G clefts, no G 8va clefts,
        but that doesn't seem right, so... Could someone who's familiar with
        the instrument tessituras make certain that the proper clef is being
        used for what is likely the proper part.... I think the top two lines
        are soprano by the notation that one is an alternate, but I'm not sure
        about the others (except the bass of course which is an F clef).

        I haven't added the other midis to korobushka, but will once I get home
        this evening.

        Bill Morris wrote:
        > Any chance of doing the older (Slavic) steps to Korobushka? I realize
        > they're still not documentable, but they fit the music, and they're
        > traditional (i.e. nobody knows how old they are).
        >
        > Mableth
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com]
        > On Behalf Of Christian M. Cepel
        > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 1:39 PM
        > To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [CalontirDance] Starting tempo for Korobushka?
        >
        > Good advice, and yes, I will be at Bellwode even if I have to move
        > mountains (real mountains, not Missouri mountains) to get there. I hope
        > to very much be involved and if anything can be done to improve/correct
        > any of my efforts, I'll surely accept with much gratitude.
        >
        > Based on the step-close, step-close thing it seems that even Crotchet =
        > 102 wouldn't be too agonizing and would leave a good amount of headroom
        > for acceleration before feet start smoking. I think I'll go with this
        > for now unless someone has better ideas and go ahead and publish to the web.
        >
        > Available for review in the next half hour or so at
        > http://music.shireofthestandingstones.org/index.php?Content=Music
        >
        >
        >
        > Tsire Tuzevo wrote:
        >
        >> Some notes on Korobushka from the Dance perspective:
        >> As much as I despise the popularity of such an out of period thing, I do
        >>
        > think the 'Tetris' music is some cool stuff to play. As for tempo: I like
        > most ECD at about 120. For the speed-it-up dances you have to be careful to
        > start it slowly enough to have some where to speed up to, but fast enough
        > that the dancers don't have to defy gravity to extend steps. In one measure,
        > the dancer steps and closes 2 times. Think about walking, stepping once per
        > beat, and you can figure out what will feel comfortable, slow but not too
        > slow, moderate-comfy, fast and insane.
        >
        >> Generally I will visit with a Pit Chief before a ball to set tempi as
        >>
        > early in the process as makes him or her feel comfortable. If you will be at
        > Bellwode Symposium, I'd be happy to sit and do a tempo check with you or you
        > can sit in on the one the Conna and I will inevitably do before the evening
        > dancing.
        >
        >> Tsire
        >>
        >>
        >> To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.comFrom: christian@...: Mon, 26
        >>
        > Feb 2007 11:43:25 -0600Subject: [CalontirDance] Starting tempo for
        > Korobushka?
        >
        >>
        >>
        >> I haven't heard this played in a long time by a dance ensemble, so I can't
        >>
        > remember where they began the tempo at and accelerated from. I like the way
        > it flows at crotchet = 120, but since it accelerates, I was wondering if the
        > initial tempo marking should be perhaps something like crotchet = 108? I'm
        > sure the musicians can play it at nosebleed speed, but I've never danced to
        > it so I've no idea what is reasonable. This is the last detail I need to
        > hammer out before putting it up on the site.Man I soooo need a newer version
        > of Finale. If anyone knows how to suppress/hide 3 of the 4 staves in a group
        > in a system (not all systems) in Finale 2001d I'd love to know how... I
        > don't believe it's possible. The whole thing fits well on a single page, but
        > if I was able to lose those three staves on the intro line, it would give me
        > tons of room to increase the size of the note elements, spacing between
        > staves and spacing between systems. May have to break into the music
        > school's computer lab for a quick edit.-- Christian M. Cepel - Thistledowne
        > Productions - http://thistledowne.orgComputer Support Specialist, Sr. -
        > University of Missouri - ColumbiaCollege of Education - School of Info
        > Science & Learning TechnologiesVRCbd, KidTools & StrategyTools Support
        > Systems Projects, and Truman,Library Whistlestop Project - Web Design &
        > Programming - 573.999.2370
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >

        --
        Christian M. Cepel - Thistledowne Productions - http://thistledowne.org
        Computer Support Specialist, Sr. - University of Missouri - Columbia
        College of Education - School of Info Science & Learning Technologies
        VRCbd, KidTools & StrategyTools Support Systems Projects, and Truman,
        Library Whistlestop Project - Web Design & Programming - 573.999.2370



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Tsire Tuzevo
        CAUTION: Mableth has inadvertently hit one of Tsire s BIG RED BUTTONS OF DANCE DOOM! Traditional undocumented vs broadway legend undocumented is, well,
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 27, 2007
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          CAUTION: Mableth has inadvertently hit one of Tsire's BIG RED BUTTONS OF DANCE DOOM!

          "Traditional" undocumented vs broadway legend undocumented is, well, undocumented to just about the same degree. Attempting to create a case for legitimacy for this seriously out of period dance by introducing 'Slavic Traditional' steps goes counter to the goal of enhancing the living history of our period through dance. This is frustrating and muddles the fun vs period false argument that I constantly hear.
          It is possible that I'm beating a dead horse uphill both ways in the snow here. If that is the case we can add "traditional" Lindy Hop to our next dance event because it certainly is fun and I've certainly been doing that a long time too. In my head, the out of period Korobushka, Slavic steps or no, is equally the outlier. I'm in no way upset at Mableth, he's just making a suggestion. I'm just frustrated that this is even still a viable idea in SCA dance with all the researchable, documentable, knock-your-socks-off dancing available.

          Thanks for indulging me in my Big Red Button Rant Folks - Now back to your regularly scheduled DanceList.
          Tsire


          To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.comFrom: billyamymorris@...: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 18:51:39 -0600Subject: RE: [CalontirDance] Starting tempo for Korobushka?




          Any chance of doing the older (Slavic) steps to Korobushka? I realizethey're still not documentable, but they fit the music, and they'retraditional (i.e. nobody knows how old they are).Mableth-----Original Message-----From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Christian M. CepelSent: Monday, February 26, 2007 1:39 PMTo: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [CalontirDance] Starting tempo for Korobushka?Good advice, and yes, I will be at Bellwode even if I have to move mountains (real mountains, not Missouri mountains) to get there. I hope to very much be involved and if anything can be done to improve/correct any of my efforts, I'll surely accept with much gratitude.Based on the step-close, step-close thing it seems that even Crotchet = 102 wouldn't be too agonizing and would leave a good amount of headroom for acceleration before feet start smoking. I think I'll go with this for now unless someone has better ideas and go ahead and publish to the web.Available for review in the next half hour or so at http://music.shireofthestandingstones.org/index.php?Content=MusicTsire Tuzevo wrote:> Some notes on Korobushka from the Dance perspective:> As much as I despise the popularity of such an out of period thing, I dothink the 'Tetris' music is some cool stuff to play. As for tempo: I likemost ECD at about 120. For the speed-it-up dances you have to be careful tostart it slowly enough to have some where to speed up to, but fast enoughthat the dancers don't have to defy gravity to extend steps. In one measure,the dancer steps and closes 2 times. Think about walking, stepping once perbeat, and you can figure out what will feel comfortable, slow but not tooslow, moderate-comfy, fast and insane. > Generally I will visit with a Pit Chief before a ball to set tempi asearly in the process as makes him or her feel comfortable. If you will be atBellwode Symposium, I'd be happy to sit and do a tempo check with you or youcan sit in on the one the Conna and I will inevitably do before the eveningdancing. > Tsire>>> To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.comFrom: christian@...: Mon, 26Feb 2007 11:43:25 -0600Subject: [CalontirDance] Starting tempo forKorobushka?>>>>> I haven't heard this played in a long time by a dance ensemble, so I can'tremember where they began the tempo at and accelerated from. I like the wayit flows at crotchet = 120, but since it accelerates, I was wondering if theinitial tempo marking should be perhaps something like crotchet = 108? I'msure the musicians can play it at nosebleed speed, but I've never danced toit so I've no idea what is reasonable. This is the last detail I need tohammer out before putting it up on the site.Man I soooo need a newer versionof Finale. If anyone knows how to suppress/hide 3 of the 4 staves in a groupin a system (not all systems) in Finale 2001d I'd love to know how... Idon't believe it's possible. The whole thing fits well on a single page, butif I was able to lose those three staves on the intro line, it would give metons of room to increase the size of the note elements, spacing betweenstaves and spacing between systems. May have to break into the musicschool's computer lab for a quick edit.-- Christian M. Cepel - ThistledowneProductions - http://thistledowne.orgComputer Support Specialist, Sr. -University of Missouri - ColumbiaCollege of Education - School of InfoScience & Learning TechnologiesVRCbd, KidTools & StrategyTools SupportSystems Projects, and Truman,Library Whistlestop Project - Web Design &Programming - 573.999.2370 >


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        • Carol O'Connell
          ... When Contantia plays the ³Duck Dance² on recorder, it sounds really medieval... ;) Conna [Non-text portions of this message have been
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 27, 2007
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            On 2/27/07 8:59 AM, "Tsire Tuzevo" <tsire@...> wrote:

            > CAUTION: Mableth has inadvertently hit one of Tsire's BIG RED BUTTONS OF
            > DANCE DOOM!
            <giant snip>

            When Contantia plays the ³Duck Dance² on recorder, it sounds really
            medieval...

            ;)

            Conna



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Katriana
            Tsire Tuzevo wrote: [...] ... certainly is fun ... Tsire, my line always used to be well, the Hustle and the Bunny Hop are... I said that once too often at
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 27, 2007
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              Tsire Tuzevo wrote:
              [...]
              > we can add "traditional" Lindy Hop to our next dance event because it
              certainly is fun
              > and I've certainly been doing that a long time too.

              Tsire, my line always used to be "well, the Hustle and the Bunny Hop are..."
              I said that once too often at Pennsic, and, well... Did you know you can
              do the Bunny Hop with Italian Dance Steps?
              http://www.calonsong.org/Dancestuff/saltarello_di_lapino.htm

              katriana
              keeper of odd stuff
            • Bill Morris
              Look, now you ve pressed one of My buttons. If we dismiss everything which isn t well documented, then we ll have to toss out much of the Inns of court, the
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 27, 2007
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                Look, now you've pressed one of My buttons.

                If we dismiss everything which isn't well documented, then we'll have to
                toss out much of the Inns of court, the early Burgundian, and even Arbeau.
                There are so many ambiguities in the primary sources that many of our dances
                are at best wild guesses. As far as I know, none of our sources were
                intended to provide authoritative instruction to students without the aid of
                teachers and a living tradition. Even Playford has more then a few sticky
                points, and it blows away most of the other sources.

                On a more philosophical note, and just as a personal preference. I like to
                see people with Scandinavian persona's attempting to do the best
                reconstruction we can do of Scandi dancing, etc. We know that there was
                dancing during the time of the Icelandic family sagas. And we're pretty
                sure that it didn't bear much resemblance to Negri and Caroso. So if you're
                trying to avoid in-authenticity...

                Also I refuse to just give up. If we know that 12th century Bohemians
                danced at harvest festivals, then there must space in the SCA for the best
                available re-creations of 12th century Bohemian dance. Even if the best
                documentation would make a hippopotamus gag.

                Another more subtle problem we all face is that we are trying to re-create
                mostly social dance forms, not performance traditions. If, for instance, we
                are re-creating an authentic Elizabethan feast with dancing, then the period
                thing is for the dancing to be done by the populace, not by a small group
                that is specially trained and rehearsed. Hasapikos might very well be done
                at a medieval Greek wedding. But it would be done by the wedding guests,
                not by performers.

                Mableth
              • Bill Morris
                I agree that, if possible, we would prefer to use period dance. My point was that if we _must_ have Korbushka (tune documentable to early 19th century
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 27, 2007
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                  I agree that, if possible, we would prefer to use period dance.

                  My point was that if we _must_ have Korbushka (tune documentable to early
                  19th century according to some references of my Dad's), then it would be
                  preferable to do something that is at least _possibly_ compatible with
                  period practice, instead of the English Country dance version which is about
                  as period as a Monty Python sketch.

                  There is a big difference between good and bad. However there is also a big
                  difference between bad and worse.

                  Mableth



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com]
                  On Behalf Of Tsire Tuzevo
                  Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:00 AM
                  To: calontirdance@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [CalontirDance] Starting tempo for Korobushka?

                  CAUTION: Mableth has inadvertently hit one of Tsire's BIG RED BUTTONS OF
                  DANCE DOOM!

                  "Traditional" undocumented vs broadway legend undocumented is, well,
                  undocumented to just about the same degree. Attempting to create a case for
                  legitimacy for this seriously out of period dance by introducing 'Slavic
                  Traditional' steps goes counter to the goal of enhancing the living history
                  of our period through dance. This is frustrating and muddles the fun vs
                  period false argument that I constantly hear.
                  It is possible that I'm beating a dead horse uphill both ways in the snow
                  here. If that is the case we can add "traditional" Lindy Hop to our next
                  dance event because it certainly is fun and I've certainly been doing that a
                  long time too. In my head, the out of period Korobushka, Slavic steps or no,
                  is equally the outlier. I'm in no way upset at Mableth, he's just making a
                  suggestion. I'm just frustrated that this is even still a viable idea in SCA
                  dance with all the researchable, documentable, knock-your-socks-off dancing
                  available.

                  Thanks for indulging me in my Big Red Button Rant Folks - Now back to your
                  regularly scheduled DanceList.
                  Tsire
                • Tsire Tuzevo
                  Mableth, I admire your zeal and your goals. Generally what I m talking about here is not doing the known documented out of period things. Korobushka s music is
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 28, 2007
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                    Mableth,

                    I admire your zeal and your goals.

                    Generally what I'm talking about here is not doing the known documented out of period things. Korobushka's music is known and documented to the early 19th century. This should not get a pass, especially with the 'fun' or 'traditional' arguments. I'll make and attempt on Orchesographie, Noblita, and other in-period primary sources for this reason as well. They are known and documented to the time period rather than definitively outside it.
                    As for your notes about who's dancing what where - who's English dinner are we at? If it's peasantry you may be correct, if it's the court and nobles ( as we all attempt to be) then late in our period we'd be dong imported Italian dances. Evidence of dance classes being a strong part of the noble culture in England is quite easy to find. You may want to check up on the assertion that the English weren't doing performance dance. Also Check Orchesographie for performance dance from France and Caroso, Dominico and Negri for performance dance from a similar time frame in Italy. Heck check the Nuremberg manuscripts too, there's a lovely set of confused reconstructions of italian and French dances in there as well as a treatise on how awful it is to dance Italian dance and be German. It's my favorite kind of evidence that something was done. It has to be done to be complained about. Much like our beloved and reviled Korobushka.



                    Katriona -

                    Let me see a tripple step into an aerial flip in Italian steps - Bring it on baby! Bring it on!

                    Tsire


                    _________________________________________________________________
                    Discover the new Windows Vista
                    http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Rowan
                    SNIP there s a lovely set of confused reconstructions of italian and French dances in there as well as a treatise on how awful it is to dance Italian dance and
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 28, 2007
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                      SNIP
                      there's a lovely set of confused reconstructions of italian and French
                      dances in there as well as a treatise on how awful it is to dance Italian
                      dance and be German. It's my favorite kind of evidence that something was
                      done. It has to be done to be complained about.
                      SNIP

                      I always was partial to the church proscriptions and bans as the evidence
                      for something being done. If the church says its a Sin then you know it
                      must have been popular! ;)

                      HL Rowan Houndskeeper
                      (Is that better Conna? :)
                      Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir
                      rowan@...

                      "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too
                      dark to read." - Groucho Marx


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Christian M. Cepel
                      Did the Vatican keep records of excommunications? You don t want those evil gits from sneaking back in by the back door... It s a good idea to keep records.
                      Message 10 of 13 , Feb 28, 2007
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                        Did the Vatican keep records of excommunications? You don't want those
                        evil gits from sneaking back in by the back door... It's a good idea to
                        keep records. Dancing minions of Satan!

                        Rowan wrote:
                        > SNIP
                        > there's a lovely set of confused reconstructions of italian and French
                        > dances in there as well as a treatise on how awful it is to dance Italian
                        > dance and be German. It's my favorite kind of evidence that something was
                        > done. It has to be done to be complained about.
                        > SNIP
                        >
                        > I always was partial to the church proscriptions and bans as the evidence
                        > for something being done. If the church says its a Sin then you know it
                        > must have been popular! ;)
                        >
                        > HL Rowan Houndskeeper
                        > (Is that better Conna? :)
                        > Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir
                        > rowan@...
                        >
                        > "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too
                        > dark to read." - Groucho Marx
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        --
                        Christian M. Cepel - Thistledowne Productions - http://thistledowne.org
                        Computer Support Specialist, Sr. - University of Missouri - Columbia
                        College of Education - School of Info Science & Learning Technologies
                        VRCbd, KidTools & StrategyTools Support Systems Projects, and Truman,
                        Library Whistlestop Project - Web Design & Programming - 573.999.2370
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