Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [CalontirDance] Re: [CalontirBards] What's the story on Al Cafrin - How much arranging makes a new arrangement? - Sent to wrong list

Expand Messages
  • Christian M. Cepel
    Oooh.. have to be careful to be clear because it s email and no nuances come across. I am in no way impugning Geoffrey, his arrangement (love the descant), or
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Oooh.. have to be careful to be clear because it's email and no nuances
      come across.

      I am in no way impugning Geoffrey, his arrangement (love the descant),
      or his honesty btw. For all I know Al gave him permission, or there's
      some other reason why things are ok.

      I was simply using the example because I came across it and it got me
      curious to get a question answered that has been bugging me for a long
      long time.
    • Carol O'Connell
      Carolingian/Belle Qui--that s Arbeau. Didn t Arbeau provide the harmony lines in his original? I m still at work, so I can t check my copy of Orcheosography
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Carolingian/Belle Qui--that's Arbeau. Didn't Arbeau provide the harmony
        lines in his original? I'm still at work, so I can't check my copy of
        Orcheosography (or apparently even spell it--LOL!).

        Within the SCA, I think there are several arrangements of Belle Qui, all
        with pretty much the same harmony. (Steve Hendrick's site also has a nice
        one.) I suspect they all simply transcribed Arbeau into modern notation, but
        I don't know for sure. But Playford, for example, only provided the melody
        line, so those harmonies vary greatly from arranger to arranger.

        I know hardly anything about music arrangement copyright. My gut tells me
        that you're right--Geoffrey's descant would be protected under copyright. I
        also know that Avatar/Al Cofrin considers his original transcription work to
        be under copyright protection. I don't know that this applies to this
        particular piece of music, but he did tell me, in general, that for a lot of
        the pieces in his book, he went back to the original sources and transcribed
        them into modern notation. And on others, he wrote a harmony where none
        existed. That sort of thing.

        In my opinion, it sounds like the bagpiper arrangements you describe--well,
        I think they're cheaters. I don’t think it's right at all to tweak a few
        notes here or there and then stick my own name on it. But if I started with
        the historic melody line only, then did my own harmony--that's all mine.

        If I only wanted to tweak it in a few spots, for use within my own group
        only (and not sell it for profit), I'd leave the arranger's name on it and
        make a footnote about where it was tweaked and by whom. 'Cause really all
        you're doing is adding an embellishment or improvisation to the original.
        But that's all just my personal opinion, for what it's worth. :)

        And the three arrangements (Jenny, War, and Hole) are all from Avatar's
        book. Seriously, put this book on your birthday wish list. ;)

        And you should definitely meet him. Avatar's group, Istanpitta, will be
        playing at the St. Louis Ren Faire (in Wentzville--a very easy drive from
        Columbia). The Fair runs over four weekends in May/June. I don't remember
        which weekend he'll be there; he typically plays only one weekend out of the
        four. I'll post when I hear.

        Conna




        On 2/8/07 5:30 PM, "Christian M. Cepel" <christian@...> wrote:

        > Hrm... how to explain. First let me preface this with a statement by
        > saying that the reason I'm asking is because I'm doing transcriptions
        > and such and I'd like a road map to negotiate these treacherous waters.
        >
        > Supposing that Al's arrangement is copyrighted, meaning by which, that
        > he reserves the right to grant use to other people who might re-notate
        > his arrangement. (i.e., as a starting place to then be modified) I.e.,
        > the copyright is not on the page layout and font and how it looks, but
        > on the musical content. Al has (I gather) not offered unlimited rights
        > to his arrangement, and therefore using it in another notation, even
        > with some original material would be forbidden. (in this case, 2 notes
        > and a descant line)
        >
        > The Geoffrey arrangement of the Carolingian Pavane is note for note
        > exactly the same except for one note in the 11th measure in the 2nd
        > voice, and one note in the 12th measure. Just to be thorough, I should
        > also note that the notation has been transposed down an octave (not in
        > pitch, but in notation) so that a G clef might be used on the stave
        > rather than a G clef sub 8va. Geoffrey's descant (which is wonderful
        > btw) is added below that.
        >
        > As Geoffry has allowed a much greater use of his music than Al has, he
        > has essentially released copyrighted material with restrictions as his
        > own with fewer restrictions in violation of the restrictions of the
        > source material. Without restrictions, there would be nothing to stop me
        > or anybody else from copyrighted piece verbatim, changing a couple of
        > notes and then releasing it as our own with no acknowledgment of the
        > original arranger.... in a sense, even implying that the entire
        > arrangement was done by me. This particular thing does come down to a
        > matter of honesty I think, and the same standards used to define
        > plagiarism should be used when deciding something like this if there
        > were a grievance.
        >
        > I was using this example to ask the questions....
        > 1. How much has to be changed before a piece of music can be considered
        > a different arrangement with no credit given to the source
        > 2. Can a rights restricted arrangement be used as a starting place for a
        > new arrangement if X% is going to be changed, and then the new
        > arrangement be copyrightable with it's own rights assignments?
        >
        > I wonder... We do this all the time with bagpipe settings for the
        > BCFDP&D, and it's always bothered me. We'll change a note we don't like
        > or a doubling or grip, and then stick a new 'arrangement' credit on it.
        >
        > I also wonder because there are three pieces I mentioned earlier in the
        > CB23 packet that look stylistically engraved in an identical manner to
        > Al Cofrin's, which leads me to wonder if they are actually original
        > arrangements or what we call in the bagpipe band "white-out" or "cut and
        > paste" arrangements, or if Al released his computer source files to
        > others to edit, or perhaps a template (which would be a clever idea).
        > Just curious. They are Jenny Pluck Pears, War (Guerre) Bransle, and Hole
        > in the Wall (I don't care what you say people!!! I love it :) )
        >
        > Anyways.
        >
        > I guess I can hope to one day meet Mr Cofrin. I'm glad that there isn't
        > bad blood as I had begun to suspect.
        >
        > Best,
        >
        > "Merry" Turlough Merriwether Lutre
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Carol O'Connell wrote:
        >> Hi! Here I am!
        >> Fernando e-mailed me for info for the Bards¹ list (I¹m not on that list).
        >> Anyway, hope the info is useful.
        >>
        >> The other pieces you asked about are also from Al¹s book (Early Dances). And
        >> thanks for taking off the website right away! The Cofrin books really are
        >> terrific. I use those books more than any others?and by a long shot. I
        >> highly recommend them.
        >>
        >> I¹m not sure what the question is. Geoffrey has two nice arrangements (Ly
        >> Bens and Contrapasso) that we use a lot. He¹s from Dragonscale Consort, in
        >> the Middle. He¹s a very nice fellow, and I¹m sure he¹d give you permission
        >> to use his pieces if you asked him, but I don¹t think he gives a full-use
        >> permission on his music, either.
        >>
        >> Anyway, I think I missed something. What¹s the question?
        >>
        >> Thanks!
        >> Conna
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> On 2/8/07 11:42 AM, "Christian M. Cepel" <christian@...> wrote:
        >>
        >>> Thank you. Very complete answer. So I'm partially right and partially
        >>> wrong. It also means that I need to get CrystalBall23 pdf off the
        >>> stone's music site asap. Ok. Done. Sorry to Conna and Al.
        >>>
      • Katriana
        I m not going to touch the copyright questions, except to point out that anything published before 1923 is free of copyright. If you follow the link I gave in
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          I'm not going to touch the copyright questions, except to point out that
          anything published before 1923 is free of copyright. If you follow the
          link I gave in my earlier email (on the camerata list) there is a photo
          reproduction of Orchesography

          http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=musdi&fileName=219/musdi219.db&recNum=61

          which dates from 1589. The top line is the drum beat and the next four
          lines are the melody, "alto" tenor and bass. The bar line that goes
          through the C clef is G (if I remember correctly). I believe you will
          find that most modern versions use Arbeau as a starting point (which is
          what I was recommending to you) and then "tweak" the tune if they feel
          it necessary. Doing your own transcription off the original should be
          completely free for you to use. The English words I gave you were
          transcribed (not translated) from the 1948 Mary Stewart Evans
          translation, republished by Dover.

          http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/dicatlg.html
          has a list of many dance books available at the Library of Congress
          online, you might also look at the English Dancing Master by John
          Playford (well, compiled by John Playford), it is the source of most of
          the English Country Dances we do in the Society.

          katriana
        • Christian M. Cepel
          ... Splendid. Thank you for your answers. I looked at the http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=musdi&fileName=219/musdi219.db&recNum=61 original last
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Carol O'Connell wrote:
            > And the three arrangements (Jenny, War, and Hole) are all from Avatar's
            > book. Seriously, put this book on your birthday wish list. ;)
            >
            Splendid. Thank you for your answers. I looked at the
            http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=musdi&fileName=219/musdi219.db&recNum=61
            original last night and found it to be different than Al's (thought I
            didn't look too deeply once I found differences as I was just confirming
            that it was indeed an 'arrangement' and not a 'transcription', but of
            course the music says that on on transcriptions he says 'transcription' :)

            I think it would indeed be a worthwhile investment. (plus it will help
            endear me to him in case I wanna ask him for permission to do stuff with
            it *conniving look* *grin*).

            Based on what you said above, three people have put their names to
            Avatar's arrangements. Is that not odd, or is it common?
          • Carol O'Connell
            Rock on, Music Goddess! And I had no idea bout the LOC link. Thanks! That s very handy. So in Katriana s link to the Arbeau page in the LOC, the Superius line
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 9, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Rock on, Music Goddess! And I had no idea bout the LOC link. Thanks! That's
              very handy.

              So in Katriana's link to the Arbeau page in the LOC, the Superius line
              starts on a G, just like on all the published pieces. (You determine the "C"
              note by the line that goes through the boxy-looking clef mark at the far
              left. And the C with the vertical line is just the time signature thingy.)

              Thanks, Katriana!

              Conna

              On 2/8/07 6:38 PM, "Katriana" <calonkat@...> wrote:

              > I'm not going to touch the copyright questions, except to point out that
              > anything published before 1923 is free of copyright. If you follow the
              > link I gave in my earlier email (on the camerata list) there is a photo
              > reproduction of Orchesography
              >
              > http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=musdi&fileName=219/musdi219.db&rec
              > Num=61
              >
              > which dates from 1589. The top line is the drum beat and the next four
              > lines are the melody, "alto" tenor and bass. The bar line that goes
              > through the C clef is G (if I remember correctly). I believe you will
              > find that most modern versions use Arbeau as a starting point (which is
              > what I was recommending to you) and then "tweak" the tune if they feel
              > it necessary. Doing your own transcription off the original should be
              > completely free for you to use. The English words I gave you were
              > transcribed (not translated) from the 1948 Mary Stewart Evans
              > translation, republished by Dover.
              >
              > http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/dicatlg.html
              > has a list of many dance books available at the Library of Congress
              > online, you might also look at the English Dancing Master by John
              > Playford (well, compiled by John Playford), it is the source of most of
              > the English Country Dances we do in the Society.
              >
              > katriana
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • Carol O'Connell
              ... I thought they all had their little tweaks and stuff. Right? And who knows which came first. Once upon a time, Avatar did tell me that these early
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 9, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                On 2/8/07 6:56 PM, "Christian M. Cepel" <christian@...> wrote:
                > <Giant snip>
                >
                > Based on what you said above, three people have put their names to
                > Avatar's arrangements. Is that not odd, or is it common?
                >
                I thought they all had their little tweaks and stuff. Right? And who knows
                which came first. Once upon a time, Avatar did tell me that these early
                published pieces contain a lot of musical errors (probably typesetting
                mistakes). Musicologists have all pretty much agreed on the typos, and they
                fix them in modern editions. Maybe this explains why you¹re finding three
                that are identical, but that don¹t quite match the original? They¹ve all
                ³stolen² from Arbeau and fixed the typos?

                I have to confess that this is not my field at all, and I¹m completely
                lacking in the patience to sit and compare each version against the other. I
                just wanna play them! ;) But Katriana knows all about this stuff, thank
                goodness!

                Cheers!
                Conna


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.