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Re: [CalontirDance] Re: [CalontirBards] What's the story on Al Cafrin - How much arranging makes a new arrangement? - Sent to wrong list

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  • Christian M. Cepel
    Hrm... how to explain. First let me preface this with a statement by saying that the reason I m asking is because I m doing transcriptions and such and I d
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
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      Hrm... how to explain. First let me preface this with a statement by
      saying that the reason I'm asking is because I'm doing transcriptions
      and such and I'd like a road map to negotiate these treacherous waters.

      Supposing that Al's arrangement is copyrighted, meaning by which, that
      he reserves the right to grant use to other people who might re-notate
      his arrangement. (i.e., as a starting place to then be modified) I.e.,
      the copyright is not on the page layout and font and how it looks, but
      on the musical content. Al has (I gather) not offered unlimited rights
      to his arrangement, and therefore using it in another notation, even
      with some original material would be forbidden. (in this case, 2 notes
      and a descant line)

      The Geoffrey arrangement of the Carolingian Pavane is note for note
      exactly the same except for one note in the 11th measure in the 2nd
      voice, and one note in the 12th measure. Just to be thorough, I should
      also note that the notation has been transposed down an octave (not in
      pitch, but in notation) so that a G clef might be used on the stave
      rather than a G clef sub 8va. Geoffrey's descant (which is wonderful
      btw) is added below that.

      As Geoffry has allowed a much greater use of his music than Al has, he
      has essentially released copyrighted material with restrictions as his
      own with fewer restrictions in violation of the restrictions of the
      source material. Without restrictions, there would be nothing to stop me
      or anybody else from copyrighted piece verbatim, changing a couple of
      notes and then releasing it as our own with no acknowledgment of the
      original arranger.... in a sense, even implying that the entire
      arrangement was done by me. This particular thing does come down to a
      matter of honesty I think, and the same standards used to define
      plagiarism should be used when deciding something like this if there
      were a grievance.

      I was using this example to ask the questions....
      1. How much has to be changed before a piece of music can be considered
      a different arrangement with no credit given to the source
      2. Can a rights restricted arrangement be used as a starting place for a
      new arrangement if X% is going to be changed, and then the new
      arrangement be copyrightable with it's own rights assignments?

      I wonder... We do this all the time with bagpipe settings for the
      BCFDP&D, and it's always bothered me. We'll change a note we don't like
      or a doubling or grip, and then stick a new 'arrangement' credit on it.

      I also wonder because there are three pieces I mentioned earlier in the
      CB23 packet that look stylistically engraved in an identical manner to
      Al Cofrin's, which leads me to wonder if they are actually original
      arrangements or what we call in the bagpipe band "white-out" or "cut and
      paste" arrangements, or if Al released his computer source files to
      others to edit, or perhaps a template (which would be a clever idea).
      Just curious. They are Jenny Pluck Pears, War (Guerre) Bransle, and Hole
      in the Wall (I don't care what you say people!!! I love it :) )

      Anyways.

      I guess I can hope to one day meet Mr Cofrin. I'm glad that there isn't
      bad blood as I had begun to suspect.

      Best,

      "Merry" Turlough Merriwether Lutre




      Carol O'Connell wrote:
      > Hi! Here I am!
      > Fernando e-mailed me for info for the Bards¹ list (I¹m not on that list).
      > Anyway, hope the info is useful.
      >
      > The other pieces you asked about are also from Al¹s book (Early Dances). And
      > thanks for taking off the website right away! The Cofrin books really are
      > terrific. I use those books more than any others‹and by a long shot. I
      > highly recommend them.
      >
      > I¹m not sure what the question is. Geoffrey has two nice arrangements (Ly
      > Bens and Contrapasso) that we use a lot. He¹s from Dragonscale Consort, in
      > the Middle. He¹s a very nice fellow, and I¹m sure he¹d give you permission
      > to use his pieces if you asked him, but I don¹t think he gives a full-use
      > permission on his music, either.
      >
      > Anyway, I think I missed something. What¹s the question?
      >
      > Thanks!
      > Conna
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > On 2/8/07 11:42 AM, "Christian M. Cepel" <christian@...> wrote:
      >
      >> Thank you. Very complete answer. So I'm partially right and partially
      >> wrong. It also means that I need to get CrystalBall23 pdf off the
      >> stone's music site asap. Ok. Done. Sorry to Conna and Al.
      >>

      --
      Christian M. Cepel - Thistledowne Productions - http://thistledowne.org
      Computer Support Specialist, Sr. - University of Missouri - Columbia
      College of Education - School of Info Science & Learning Technologies
      VRCbd, KidTools & StrategyTools Support Systems Projects, and Truman,
      Library Whistlestop Project - Web Design & Programming - 573.999.2370
    • Christian M. Cepel
      Oooh.. have to be careful to be clear because it s email and no nuances come across. I am in no way impugning Geoffrey, his arrangement (love the descant), or
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
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        Oooh.. have to be careful to be clear because it's email and no nuances
        come across.

        I am in no way impugning Geoffrey, his arrangement (love the descant),
        or his honesty btw. For all I know Al gave him permission, or there's
        some other reason why things are ok.

        I was simply using the example because I came across it and it got me
        curious to get a question answered that has been bugging me for a long
        long time.
      • Carol O'Connell
        Carolingian/Belle Qui--that s Arbeau. Didn t Arbeau provide the harmony lines in his original? I m still at work, so I can t check my copy of Orcheosography
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
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          Carolingian/Belle Qui--that's Arbeau. Didn't Arbeau provide the harmony
          lines in his original? I'm still at work, so I can't check my copy of
          Orcheosography (or apparently even spell it--LOL!).

          Within the SCA, I think there are several arrangements of Belle Qui, all
          with pretty much the same harmony. (Steve Hendrick's site also has a nice
          one.) I suspect they all simply transcribed Arbeau into modern notation, but
          I don't know for sure. But Playford, for example, only provided the melody
          line, so those harmonies vary greatly from arranger to arranger.

          I know hardly anything about music arrangement copyright. My gut tells me
          that you're right--Geoffrey's descant would be protected under copyright. I
          also know that Avatar/Al Cofrin considers his original transcription work to
          be under copyright protection. I don't know that this applies to this
          particular piece of music, but he did tell me, in general, that for a lot of
          the pieces in his book, he went back to the original sources and transcribed
          them into modern notation. And on others, he wrote a harmony where none
          existed. That sort of thing.

          In my opinion, it sounds like the bagpiper arrangements you describe--well,
          I think they're cheaters. I don’t think it's right at all to tweak a few
          notes here or there and then stick my own name on it. But if I started with
          the historic melody line only, then did my own harmony--that's all mine.

          If I only wanted to tweak it in a few spots, for use within my own group
          only (and not sell it for profit), I'd leave the arranger's name on it and
          make a footnote about where it was tweaked and by whom. 'Cause really all
          you're doing is adding an embellishment or improvisation to the original.
          But that's all just my personal opinion, for what it's worth. :)

          And the three arrangements (Jenny, War, and Hole) are all from Avatar's
          book. Seriously, put this book on your birthday wish list. ;)

          And you should definitely meet him. Avatar's group, Istanpitta, will be
          playing at the St. Louis Ren Faire (in Wentzville--a very easy drive from
          Columbia). The Fair runs over four weekends in May/June. I don't remember
          which weekend he'll be there; he typically plays only one weekend out of the
          four. I'll post when I hear.

          Conna




          On 2/8/07 5:30 PM, "Christian M. Cepel" <christian@...> wrote:

          > Hrm... how to explain. First let me preface this with a statement by
          > saying that the reason I'm asking is because I'm doing transcriptions
          > and such and I'd like a road map to negotiate these treacherous waters.
          >
          > Supposing that Al's arrangement is copyrighted, meaning by which, that
          > he reserves the right to grant use to other people who might re-notate
          > his arrangement. (i.e., as a starting place to then be modified) I.e.,
          > the copyright is not on the page layout and font and how it looks, but
          > on the musical content. Al has (I gather) not offered unlimited rights
          > to his arrangement, and therefore using it in another notation, even
          > with some original material would be forbidden. (in this case, 2 notes
          > and a descant line)
          >
          > The Geoffrey arrangement of the Carolingian Pavane is note for note
          > exactly the same except for one note in the 11th measure in the 2nd
          > voice, and one note in the 12th measure. Just to be thorough, I should
          > also note that the notation has been transposed down an octave (not in
          > pitch, but in notation) so that a G clef might be used on the stave
          > rather than a G clef sub 8va. Geoffrey's descant (which is wonderful
          > btw) is added below that.
          >
          > As Geoffry has allowed a much greater use of his music than Al has, he
          > has essentially released copyrighted material with restrictions as his
          > own with fewer restrictions in violation of the restrictions of the
          > source material. Without restrictions, there would be nothing to stop me
          > or anybody else from copyrighted piece verbatim, changing a couple of
          > notes and then releasing it as our own with no acknowledgment of the
          > original arranger.... in a sense, even implying that the entire
          > arrangement was done by me. This particular thing does come down to a
          > matter of honesty I think, and the same standards used to define
          > plagiarism should be used when deciding something like this if there
          > were a grievance.
          >
          > I was using this example to ask the questions....
          > 1. How much has to be changed before a piece of music can be considered
          > a different arrangement with no credit given to the source
          > 2. Can a rights restricted arrangement be used as a starting place for a
          > new arrangement if X% is going to be changed, and then the new
          > arrangement be copyrightable with it's own rights assignments?
          >
          > I wonder... We do this all the time with bagpipe settings for the
          > BCFDP&D, and it's always bothered me. We'll change a note we don't like
          > or a doubling or grip, and then stick a new 'arrangement' credit on it.
          >
          > I also wonder because there are three pieces I mentioned earlier in the
          > CB23 packet that look stylistically engraved in an identical manner to
          > Al Cofrin's, which leads me to wonder if they are actually original
          > arrangements or what we call in the bagpipe band "white-out" or "cut and
          > paste" arrangements, or if Al released his computer source files to
          > others to edit, or perhaps a template (which would be a clever idea).
          > Just curious. They are Jenny Pluck Pears, War (Guerre) Bransle, and Hole
          > in the Wall (I don't care what you say people!!! I love it :) )
          >
          > Anyways.
          >
          > I guess I can hope to one day meet Mr Cofrin. I'm glad that there isn't
          > bad blood as I had begun to suspect.
          >
          > Best,
          >
          > "Merry" Turlough Merriwether Lutre
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Carol O'Connell wrote:
          >> Hi! Here I am!
          >> Fernando e-mailed me for info for the Bards¹ list (I¹m not on that list).
          >> Anyway, hope the info is useful.
          >>
          >> The other pieces you asked about are also from Al¹s book (Early Dances). And
          >> thanks for taking off the website right away! The Cofrin books really are
          >> terrific. I use those books more than any others?and by a long shot. I
          >> highly recommend them.
          >>
          >> I¹m not sure what the question is. Geoffrey has two nice arrangements (Ly
          >> Bens and Contrapasso) that we use a lot. He¹s from Dragonscale Consort, in
          >> the Middle. He¹s a very nice fellow, and I¹m sure he¹d give you permission
          >> to use his pieces if you asked him, but I don¹t think he gives a full-use
          >> permission on his music, either.
          >>
          >> Anyway, I think I missed something. What¹s the question?
          >>
          >> Thanks!
          >> Conna
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> On 2/8/07 11:42 AM, "Christian M. Cepel" <christian@...> wrote:
          >>
          >>> Thank you. Very complete answer. So I'm partially right and partially
          >>> wrong. It also means that I need to get CrystalBall23 pdf off the
          >>> stone's music site asap. Ok. Done. Sorry to Conna and Al.
          >>>
        • Katriana
          I m not going to touch the copyright questions, except to point out that anything published before 1923 is free of copyright. If you follow the link I gave in
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
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            I'm not going to touch the copyright questions, except to point out that
            anything published before 1923 is free of copyright. If you follow the
            link I gave in my earlier email (on the camerata list) there is a photo
            reproduction of Orchesography

            http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=musdi&fileName=219/musdi219.db&recNum=61

            which dates from 1589. The top line is the drum beat and the next four
            lines are the melody, "alto" tenor and bass. The bar line that goes
            through the C clef is G (if I remember correctly). I believe you will
            find that most modern versions use Arbeau as a starting point (which is
            what I was recommending to you) and then "tweak" the tune if they feel
            it necessary. Doing your own transcription off the original should be
            completely free for you to use. The English words I gave you were
            transcribed (not translated) from the 1948 Mary Stewart Evans
            translation, republished by Dover.

            http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/dicatlg.html
            has a list of many dance books available at the Library of Congress
            online, you might also look at the English Dancing Master by John
            Playford (well, compiled by John Playford), it is the source of most of
            the English Country Dances we do in the Society.

            katriana
          • Christian M. Cepel
            ... Splendid. Thank you for your answers. I looked at the http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=musdi&fileName=219/musdi219.db&recNum=61 original last
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
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              Carol O'Connell wrote:
              > And the three arrangements (Jenny, War, and Hole) are all from Avatar's
              > book. Seriously, put this book on your birthday wish list. ;)
              >
              Splendid. Thank you for your answers. I looked at the
              http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=musdi&fileName=219/musdi219.db&recNum=61
              original last night and found it to be different than Al's (thought I
              didn't look too deeply once I found differences as I was just confirming
              that it was indeed an 'arrangement' and not a 'transcription', but of
              course the music says that on on transcriptions he says 'transcription' :)

              I think it would indeed be a worthwhile investment. (plus it will help
              endear me to him in case I wanna ask him for permission to do stuff with
              it *conniving look* *grin*).

              Based on what you said above, three people have put their names to
              Avatar's arrangements. Is that not odd, or is it common?
            • Carol O'Connell
              Rock on, Music Goddess! And I had no idea bout the LOC link. Thanks! That s very handy. So in Katriana s link to the Arbeau page in the LOC, the Superius line
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 9, 2007
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                Rock on, Music Goddess! And I had no idea bout the LOC link. Thanks! That's
                very handy.

                So in Katriana's link to the Arbeau page in the LOC, the Superius line
                starts on a G, just like on all the published pieces. (You determine the "C"
                note by the line that goes through the boxy-looking clef mark at the far
                left. And the C with the vertical line is just the time signature thingy.)

                Thanks, Katriana!

                Conna

                On 2/8/07 6:38 PM, "Katriana" <calonkat@...> wrote:

                > I'm not going to touch the copyright questions, except to point out that
                > anything published before 1923 is free of copyright. If you follow the
                > link I gave in my earlier email (on the camerata list) there is a photo
                > reproduction of Orchesography
                >
                > http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=musdi&fileName=219/musdi219.db&rec
                > Num=61
                >
                > which dates from 1589. The top line is the drum beat and the next four
                > lines are the melody, "alto" tenor and bass. The bar line that goes
                > through the C clef is G (if I remember correctly). I believe you will
                > find that most modern versions use Arbeau as a starting point (which is
                > what I was recommending to you) and then "tweak" the tune if they feel
                > it necessary. Doing your own transcription off the original should be
                > completely free for you to use. The English words I gave you were
                > transcribed (not translated) from the 1948 Mary Stewart Evans
                > translation, republished by Dover.
                >
                > http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/dicatlg.html
                > has a list of many dance books available at the Library of Congress
                > online, you might also look at the English Dancing Master by John
                > Playford (well, compiled by John Playford), it is the source of most of
                > the English Country Dances we do in the Society.
                >
                > katriana
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • Carol O'Connell
                ... I thought they all had their little tweaks and stuff. Right? And who knows which came first. Once upon a time, Avatar did tell me that these early
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 9, 2007
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                  On 2/8/07 6:56 PM, "Christian M. Cepel" <christian@...> wrote:
                  > <Giant snip>
                  >
                  > Based on what you said above, three people have put their names to
                  > Avatar's arrangements. Is that not odd, or is it common?
                  >
                  I thought they all had their little tweaks and stuff. Right? And who knows
                  which came first. Once upon a time, Avatar did tell me that these early
                  published pieces contain a lot of musical errors (probably typesetting
                  mistakes). Musicologists have all pretty much agreed on the typos, and they
                  fix them in modern editions. Maybe this explains why you¹re finding three
                  that are identical, but that don¹t quite match the original? They¹ve all
                  ³stolen² from Arbeau and fixed the typos?

                  I have to confess that this is not my field at all, and I¹m completely
                  lacking in the patience to sit and compare each version against the other. I
                  just wanna play them! ;) But Katriana knows all about this stuff, thank
                  goodness!

                  Cheers!
                  Conna


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