Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [CalontirDance] Re: [CalontirBards] What's the story on Al Cafrin - How much arranging makes a new arrangement? - Sent to wrong list

Expand Messages
  • Carol O'Connell
    Hi! Here I am! Fernando e-mailed me for info for the Bards¹ list (I¹m not on that list). Anyway, hope the info is useful. The other pieces you asked about
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi! Here I am!
      Fernando e-mailed me for info for the Bards¹ list (I¹m not on that list).
      Anyway, hope the info is useful.

      The other pieces you asked about are also from Al¹s book (Early Dances). And
      thanks for taking off the website right away! The Cofrin books really are
      terrific. I use those books more than any others‹and by a long shot. I
      highly recommend them.

      I¹m not sure what the question is. Geoffrey has two nice arrangements (Ly
      Bens and Contrapasso) that we use a lot. He¹s from Dragonscale Consort, in
      the Middle. He¹s a very nice fellow, and I¹m sure he¹d give you permission
      to use his pieces if you asked him, but I don¹t think he gives a full-use
      permission on his music, either.

      Anyway, I think I missed something. What¹s the question?

      Thanks!
      Conna




      On 2/8/07 11:42 AM, "Christian M. Cepel" <christian@...> wrote:
      >
      > Thank you. Very complete answer. So I'm partially right and partially
      > wrong. It also means that I need to get CrystalBall23 pdf off the
      > stone's music site asap. Ok. Done. Sorry to Conna and Al.
      >
      > I'm curious about those files I mentioned that are under the name of
      > another but that stylistically look identical to the layout used by Al
      > Cafrin's music. What's the deal there.
      >
      > Also, on the Calontir Camerata group, someone suggested I use this copy
      > instead with this comment
      >
      > ---------------------------
      >
      > http://members.cox.net/calonkat/Lilies2004/ has Geoffrey of Exeter's
      > transcription, which included a newly written descant line. As well as
      > some links for dance music if you want to find more, that would
      > definitely be free for distribution in the SCA.
      >
      > ---------------------------
      >
      > I mailed back last night the following, and I'd like to hear opinions here as
      > well.
      >
      > ---------------------------
      >
      > I'm having a little difficulty with the Geoffrey of Exeter
      > transcription. If the Cofrin transcription is indeed legally
      > copyrighted, then I don't think changing one note in 11th and 12th
      > measures of the second voice, and keeping every note of the other three
      > voices exactly the same would in any way be legal grounds for claiming
      > that Cofrin's copyright did not apply and that it could as you say be
      > free for distribution in the SCA. Maybe someone else knows musical
      > copyright law better than I do, but I think this is real shaky. The
      > descant line could of course copyrighted and rights extended to the SCA.
      >
      > I very much like the descant line btw.... Stylistically would it be
      > considered a match for the period? I'm not asking because I have
      > doubts, but rather because I do not know. I had the embarrassing
      > experience of saying how much I liked Duchess Rondallynn's Pavanne (
      > Implied in that is how I thought it sounded 'medieval' ) only to be told
      > that it was a Mannheim Steamroller (or was it Allen Parson's Project)...
      > anyways, completely modern.
      >
      > ---------------------------
      >
      > Any opinions? I'm a little confused about the second hand thing. I
      > thought Mistress Conna was on this list?
      >
      > Fvigil@... <mailto:Fvigil%40aol.com> wrote:
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > Conna indicates that she uses his arrangements because she thinks
      >> > they are better than the others available, and because she (and a
      >> > few other folks) have his specific permission to use them in their
      >> > music pits.
      >> >
      >> > She has permission to e-mail them privately to people who request
      >> > them from her, so that they can practice for each ball, and she
      >> > only sends them to people who tell her they will be there. But
      >> > those people do not have permission to use them for other things
      >> > without purchasing his book. (available at:
      >> > http://www.istanpitta.com/i_009.htm)
      >> >
      >> > He specifically does not make them available online. And he denied
      >> > permission for them to be used at balls when the organizer
      >> > wanted put downloadable pdfs on the web.
      >> >
      >> > Conna also notes that she makes a point of telling the musicians
      >> > in her pits that these arrangements are available in Avatar's
      >> > Early Dances book, and that they should buy one if they can.
      >> >
      >> > Hope this clarifies things,
      >> >
      >> > Fernando
      >> >
      >> >






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Christian M. Cepel
      Hrm... how to explain. First let me preface this with a statement by saying that the reason I m asking is because I m doing transcriptions and such and I d
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Hrm... how to explain. First let me preface this with a statement by
        saying that the reason I'm asking is because I'm doing transcriptions
        and such and I'd like a road map to negotiate these treacherous waters.

        Supposing that Al's arrangement is copyrighted, meaning by which, that
        he reserves the right to grant use to other people who might re-notate
        his arrangement. (i.e., as a starting place to then be modified) I.e.,
        the copyright is not on the page layout and font and how it looks, but
        on the musical content. Al has (I gather) not offered unlimited rights
        to his arrangement, and therefore using it in another notation, even
        with some original material would be forbidden. (in this case, 2 notes
        and a descant line)

        The Geoffrey arrangement of the Carolingian Pavane is note for note
        exactly the same except for one note in the 11th measure in the 2nd
        voice, and one note in the 12th measure. Just to be thorough, I should
        also note that the notation has been transposed down an octave (not in
        pitch, but in notation) so that a G clef might be used on the stave
        rather than a G clef sub 8va. Geoffrey's descant (which is wonderful
        btw) is added below that.

        As Geoffry has allowed a much greater use of his music than Al has, he
        has essentially released copyrighted material with restrictions as his
        own with fewer restrictions in violation of the restrictions of the
        source material. Without restrictions, there would be nothing to stop me
        or anybody else from copyrighted piece verbatim, changing a couple of
        notes and then releasing it as our own with no acknowledgment of the
        original arranger.... in a sense, even implying that the entire
        arrangement was done by me. This particular thing does come down to a
        matter of honesty I think, and the same standards used to define
        plagiarism should be used when deciding something like this if there
        were a grievance.

        I was using this example to ask the questions....
        1. How much has to be changed before a piece of music can be considered
        a different arrangement with no credit given to the source
        2. Can a rights restricted arrangement be used as a starting place for a
        new arrangement if X% is going to be changed, and then the new
        arrangement be copyrightable with it's own rights assignments?

        I wonder... We do this all the time with bagpipe settings for the
        BCFDP&D, and it's always bothered me. We'll change a note we don't like
        or a doubling or grip, and then stick a new 'arrangement' credit on it.

        I also wonder because there are three pieces I mentioned earlier in the
        CB23 packet that look stylistically engraved in an identical manner to
        Al Cofrin's, which leads me to wonder if they are actually original
        arrangements or what we call in the bagpipe band "white-out" or "cut and
        paste" arrangements, or if Al released his computer source files to
        others to edit, or perhaps a template (which would be a clever idea).
        Just curious. They are Jenny Pluck Pears, War (Guerre) Bransle, and Hole
        in the Wall (I don't care what you say people!!! I love it :) )

        Anyways.

        I guess I can hope to one day meet Mr Cofrin. I'm glad that there isn't
        bad blood as I had begun to suspect.

        Best,

        "Merry" Turlough Merriwether Lutre




        Carol O'Connell wrote:
        > Hi! Here I am!
        > Fernando e-mailed me for info for the Bards¹ list (I¹m not on that list).
        > Anyway, hope the info is useful.
        >
        > The other pieces you asked about are also from Al¹s book (Early Dances). And
        > thanks for taking off the website right away! The Cofrin books really are
        > terrific. I use those books more than any others‹and by a long shot. I
        > highly recommend them.
        >
        > I¹m not sure what the question is. Geoffrey has two nice arrangements (Ly
        > Bens and Contrapasso) that we use a lot. He¹s from Dragonscale Consort, in
        > the Middle. He¹s a very nice fellow, and I¹m sure he¹d give you permission
        > to use his pieces if you asked him, but I don¹t think he gives a full-use
        > permission on his music, either.
        >
        > Anyway, I think I missed something. What¹s the question?
        >
        > Thanks!
        > Conna
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > On 2/8/07 11:42 AM, "Christian M. Cepel" <christian@...> wrote:
        >
        >> Thank you. Very complete answer. So I'm partially right and partially
        >> wrong. It also means that I need to get CrystalBall23 pdf off the
        >> stone's music site asap. Ok. Done. Sorry to Conna and Al.
        >>

        --
        Christian M. Cepel - Thistledowne Productions - http://thistledowne.org
        Computer Support Specialist, Sr. - University of Missouri - Columbia
        College of Education - School of Info Science & Learning Technologies
        VRCbd, KidTools & StrategyTools Support Systems Projects, and Truman,
        Library Whistlestop Project - Web Design & Programming - 573.999.2370
      • Christian M. Cepel
        Oooh.. have to be careful to be clear because it s email and no nuances come across. I am in no way impugning Geoffrey, his arrangement (love the descant), or
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Oooh.. have to be careful to be clear because it's email and no nuances
          come across.

          I am in no way impugning Geoffrey, his arrangement (love the descant),
          or his honesty btw. For all I know Al gave him permission, or there's
          some other reason why things are ok.

          I was simply using the example because I came across it and it got me
          curious to get a question answered that has been bugging me for a long
          long time.
        • Carol O'Connell
          Carolingian/Belle Qui--that s Arbeau. Didn t Arbeau provide the harmony lines in his original? I m still at work, so I can t check my copy of Orcheosography
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Carolingian/Belle Qui--that's Arbeau. Didn't Arbeau provide the harmony
            lines in his original? I'm still at work, so I can't check my copy of
            Orcheosography (or apparently even spell it--LOL!).

            Within the SCA, I think there are several arrangements of Belle Qui, all
            with pretty much the same harmony. (Steve Hendrick's site also has a nice
            one.) I suspect they all simply transcribed Arbeau into modern notation, but
            I don't know for sure. But Playford, for example, only provided the melody
            line, so those harmonies vary greatly from arranger to arranger.

            I know hardly anything about music arrangement copyright. My gut tells me
            that you're right--Geoffrey's descant would be protected under copyright. I
            also know that Avatar/Al Cofrin considers his original transcription work to
            be under copyright protection. I don't know that this applies to this
            particular piece of music, but he did tell me, in general, that for a lot of
            the pieces in his book, he went back to the original sources and transcribed
            them into modern notation. And on others, he wrote a harmony where none
            existed. That sort of thing.

            In my opinion, it sounds like the bagpiper arrangements you describe--well,
            I think they're cheaters. I don’t think it's right at all to tweak a few
            notes here or there and then stick my own name on it. But if I started with
            the historic melody line only, then did my own harmony--that's all mine.

            If I only wanted to tweak it in a few spots, for use within my own group
            only (and not sell it for profit), I'd leave the arranger's name on it and
            make a footnote about where it was tweaked and by whom. 'Cause really all
            you're doing is adding an embellishment or improvisation to the original.
            But that's all just my personal opinion, for what it's worth. :)

            And the three arrangements (Jenny, War, and Hole) are all from Avatar's
            book. Seriously, put this book on your birthday wish list. ;)

            And you should definitely meet him. Avatar's group, Istanpitta, will be
            playing at the St. Louis Ren Faire (in Wentzville--a very easy drive from
            Columbia). The Fair runs over four weekends in May/June. I don't remember
            which weekend he'll be there; he typically plays only one weekend out of the
            four. I'll post when I hear.

            Conna




            On 2/8/07 5:30 PM, "Christian M. Cepel" <christian@...> wrote:

            > Hrm... how to explain. First let me preface this with a statement by
            > saying that the reason I'm asking is because I'm doing transcriptions
            > and such and I'd like a road map to negotiate these treacherous waters.
            >
            > Supposing that Al's arrangement is copyrighted, meaning by which, that
            > he reserves the right to grant use to other people who might re-notate
            > his arrangement. (i.e., as a starting place to then be modified) I.e.,
            > the copyright is not on the page layout and font and how it looks, but
            > on the musical content. Al has (I gather) not offered unlimited rights
            > to his arrangement, and therefore using it in another notation, even
            > with some original material would be forbidden. (in this case, 2 notes
            > and a descant line)
            >
            > The Geoffrey arrangement of the Carolingian Pavane is note for note
            > exactly the same except for one note in the 11th measure in the 2nd
            > voice, and one note in the 12th measure. Just to be thorough, I should
            > also note that the notation has been transposed down an octave (not in
            > pitch, but in notation) so that a G clef might be used on the stave
            > rather than a G clef sub 8va. Geoffrey's descant (which is wonderful
            > btw) is added below that.
            >
            > As Geoffry has allowed a much greater use of his music than Al has, he
            > has essentially released copyrighted material with restrictions as his
            > own with fewer restrictions in violation of the restrictions of the
            > source material. Without restrictions, there would be nothing to stop me
            > or anybody else from copyrighted piece verbatim, changing a couple of
            > notes and then releasing it as our own with no acknowledgment of the
            > original arranger.... in a sense, even implying that the entire
            > arrangement was done by me. This particular thing does come down to a
            > matter of honesty I think, and the same standards used to define
            > plagiarism should be used when deciding something like this if there
            > were a grievance.
            >
            > I was using this example to ask the questions....
            > 1. How much has to be changed before a piece of music can be considered
            > a different arrangement with no credit given to the source
            > 2. Can a rights restricted arrangement be used as a starting place for a
            > new arrangement if X% is going to be changed, and then the new
            > arrangement be copyrightable with it's own rights assignments?
            >
            > I wonder... We do this all the time with bagpipe settings for the
            > BCFDP&D, and it's always bothered me. We'll change a note we don't like
            > or a doubling or grip, and then stick a new 'arrangement' credit on it.
            >
            > I also wonder because there are three pieces I mentioned earlier in the
            > CB23 packet that look stylistically engraved in an identical manner to
            > Al Cofrin's, which leads me to wonder if they are actually original
            > arrangements or what we call in the bagpipe band "white-out" or "cut and
            > paste" arrangements, or if Al released his computer source files to
            > others to edit, or perhaps a template (which would be a clever idea).
            > Just curious. They are Jenny Pluck Pears, War (Guerre) Bransle, and Hole
            > in the Wall (I don't care what you say people!!! I love it :) )
            >
            > Anyways.
            >
            > I guess I can hope to one day meet Mr Cofrin. I'm glad that there isn't
            > bad blood as I had begun to suspect.
            >
            > Best,
            >
            > "Merry" Turlough Merriwether Lutre
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Carol O'Connell wrote:
            >> Hi! Here I am!
            >> Fernando e-mailed me for info for the Bards¹ list (I¹m not on that list).
            >> Anyway, hope the info is useful.
            >>
            >> The other pieces you asked about are also from Al¹s book (Early Dances). And
            >> thanks for taking off the website right away! The Cofrin books really are
            >> terrific. I use those books more than any others?and by a long shot. I
            >> highly recommend them.
            >>
            >> I¹m not sure what the question is. Geoffrey has two nice arrangements (Ly
            >> Bens and Contrapasso) that we use a lot. He¹s from Dragonscale Consort, in
            >> the Middle. He¹s a very nice fellow, and I¹m sure he¹d give you permission
            >> to use his pieces if you asked him, but I don¹t think he gives a full-use
            >> permission on his music, either.
            >>
            >> Anyway, I think I missed something. What¹s the question?
            >>
            >> Thanks!
            >> Conna
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> On 2/8/07 11:42 AM, "Christian M. Cepel" <christian@...> wrote:
            >>
            >>> Thank you. Very complete answer. So I'm partially right and partially
            >>> wrong. It also means that I need to get CrystalBall23 pdf off the
            >>> stone's music site asap. Ok. Done. Sorry to Conna and Al.
            >>>
          • Katriana
            I m not going to touch the copyright questions, except to point out that anything published before 1923 is free of copyright. If you follow the link I gave in
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              I'm not going to touch the copyright questions, except to point out that
              anything published before 1923 is free of copyright. If you follow the
              link I gave in my earlier email (on the camerata list) there is a photo
              reproduction of Orchesography

              http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=musdi&fileName=219/musdi219.db&recNum=61

              which dates from 1589. The top line is the drum beat and the next four
              lines are the melody, "alto" tenor and bass. The bar line that goes
              through the C clef is G (if I remember correctly). I believe you will
              find that most modern versions use Arbeau as a starting point (which is
              what I was recommending to you) and then "tweak" the tune if they feel
              it necessary. Doing your own transcription off the original should be
              completely free for you to use. The English words I gave you were
              transcribed (not translated) from the 1948 Mary Stewart Evans
              translation, republished by Dover.

              http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/dicatlg.html
              has a list of many dance books available at the Library of Congress
              online, you might also look at the English Dancing Master by John
              Playford (well, compiled by John Playford), it is the source of most of
              the English Country Dances we do in the Society.

              katriana
            • Christian M. Cepel
              ... Splendid. Thank you for your answers. I looked at the http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=musdi&fileName=219/musdi219.db&recNum=61 original last
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Carol O'Connell wrote:
                > And the three arrangements (Jenny, War, and Hole) are all from Avatar's
                > book. Seriously, put this book on your birthday wish list. ;)
                >
                Splendid. Thank you for your answers. I looked at the
                http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=musdi&fileName=219/musdi219.db&recNum=61
                original last night and found it to be different than Al's (thought I
                didn't look too deeply once I found differences as I was just confirming
                that it was indeed an 'arrangement' and not a 'transcription', but of
                course the music says that on on transcriptions he says 'transcription' :)

                I think it would indeed be a worthwhile investment. (plus it will help
                endear me to him in case I wanna ask him for permission to do stuff with
                it *conniving look* *grin*).

                Based on what you said above, three people have put their names to
                Avatar's arrangements. Is that not odd, or is it common?
              • Carol O'Connell
                Rock on, Music Goddess! And I had no idea bout the LOC link. Thanks! That s very handy. So in Katriana s link to the Arbeau page in the LOC, the Superius line
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 9, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Rock on, Music Goddess! And I had no idea bout the LOC link. Thanks! That's
                  very handy.

                  So in Katriana's link to the Arbeau page in the LOC, the Superius line
                  starts on a G, just like on all the published pieces. (You determine the "C"
                  note by the line that goes through the boxy-looking clef mark at the far
                  left. And the C with the vertical line is just the time signature thingy.)

                  Thanks, Katriana!

                  Conna

                  On 2/8/07 6:38 PM, "Katriana" <calonkat@...> wrote:

                  > I'm not going to touch the copyright questions, except to point out that
                  > anything published before 1923 is free of copyright. If you follow the
                  > link I gave in my earlier email (on the camerata list) there is a photo
                  > reproduction of Orchesography
                  >
                  > http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=musdi&fileName=219/musdi219.db&rec
                  > Num=61
                  >
                  > which dates from 1589. The top line is the drum beat and the next four
                  > lines are the melody, "alto" tenor and bass. The bar line that goes
                  > through the C clef is G (if I remember correctly). I believe you will
                  > find that most modern versions use Arbeau as a starting point (which is
                  > what I was recommending to you) and then "tweak" the tune if they feel
                  > it necessary. Doing your own transcription off the original should be
                  > completely free for you to use. The English words I gave you were
                  > transcribed (not translated) from the 1948 Mary Stewart Evans
                  > translation, republished by Dover.
                  >
                  > http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/dicatlg.html
                  > has a list of many dance books available at the Library of Congress
                  > online, you might also look at the English Dancing Master by John
                  > Playford (well, compiled by John Playford), it is the source of most of
                  > the English Country Dances we do in the Society.
                  >
                  > katriana
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Carol O'Connell
                  ... I thought they all had their little tweaks and stuff. Right? And who knows which came first. Once upon a time, Avatar did tell me that these early
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 9, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On 2/8/07 6:56 PM, "Christian M. Cepel" <christian@...> wrote:
                    > <Giant snip>
                    >
                    > Based on what you said above, three people have put their names to
                    > Avatar's arrangements. Is that not odd, or is it common?
                    >
                    I thought they all had their little tweaks and stuff. Right? And who knows
                    which came first. Once upon a time, Avatar did tell me that these early
                    published pieces contain a lot of musical errors (probably typesetting
                    mistakes). Musicologists have all pretty much agreed on the typos, and they
                    fix them in modern editions. Maybe this explains why you¹re finding three
                    that are identical, but that don¹t quite match the original? They¹ve all
                    ³stolen² from Arbeau and fixed the typos?

                    I have to confess that this is not my field at all, and I¹m completely
                    lacking in the patience to sit and compare each version against the other. I
                    just wanna play them! ;) But Katriana knows all about this stuff, thank
                    goodness!

                    Cheers!
                    Conna


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.