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Re: [CalontirBards] What's the story on Al Cafrin - How much arranging makes a new arrangement? - Sent to wrong list

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  • Christian M. Cepel
    ... Subject: Re: [CalontirBards] What s the story on Al Cafrin - How much arranging makes a new arrangement? Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 11:38:56 -0600 From:
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
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      -------- Original Message --------
      Subject: Re: [CalontirBards] What's the story on Al Cafrin - How much
      arranging makes a new arrangement?
      Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 11:38:56 -0600
      From: Christian M. Cepel <christian@...>
      Reply-To: CalontirBards@yahoogroups.com
      To: CalontirBards@yahoogroups.com
      References: <c2e.ecbd2dd.32fca9d1@...>



      Thank you. Very complete answer. So I'm partially right and partially
      wrong. It also means that I need to get CrystalBall23 pdf off the
      stone's music site asap. Ok. Done. Sorry to Conna and Al.

      I'm curious about those files I mentioned that are under the name of
      another but that stylistically look identical to the layout used by Al
      Cafrin's music. What's the deal there.

      Also, on the Calontir Camerata group, someone suggested I use this copy
      instead with this comment

      ---------------------------

      http://members.cox.net/calonkat/Lilies2004/ has Geoffrey of Exeter's
      transcription, which included a newly written descant line. As well as
      some links for dance music if you want to find more, that would
      definitely be free for distribution in the SCA.

      ---------------------------

      I mailed back last night the following, and I'd like to hear opinions here as well.

      ---------------------------

      I'm having a little difficulty with the Geoffrey of Exeter
      transcription. If the Cofrin transcription is indeed legally
      copyrighted, then I don't think changing one note in 11th and 12th
      measures of the second voice, and keeping every note of the other three
      voices exactly the same would in any way be legal grounds for claiming
      that Cofrin's copyright did not apply and that it could as you say be
      free for distribution in the SCA. Maybe someone else knows musical
      copyright law better than I do, but I think this is real shaky. The
      descant line could of course copyrighted and rights extended to the SCA.

      I very much like the descant line btw.... Stylistically would it be
      considered a match for the period? I'm not asking because I have
      doubts, but rather because I do not know. I had the embarrassing
      experience of saying how much I liked Duchess Rondallynn's Pavanne (
      Implied in that is how I thought it sounded 'medieval' ) only to be told
      that it was a Mannheim Steamroller (or was it Allen Parson's Project)...
      anyways, completely modern.

      ---------------------------

      Any opinions? I'm a little confused about the second hand thing. I
      thought Mistress Conna was on this list?

      Fvigil@... wrote:
      >
      >
      > Conna indicates that she uses his arrangements because she thinks
      > they are better than the others available, and because she (and a
      > few other folks) have his specific permission to use them in their
      > music pits.
      >
      > She has permission to e-mail them privately to people who request
      > them from her, so that they can practice for each ball, and she
      > only sends them to people who tell her they will be there. But
      > those people do not have permission to use them for other things
      > without purchasing his book. (available at:
      > http://www.istanpitta.com/i_009.htm)
      >
      > He specifically does not make them available online. And he denied
      > permission for them to be used at balls when the organizer
      > wanted put downloadable pdfs on the web.
      >
      > Conna also notes that she makes a point of telling the musicians
      > in her pits that these arrangements are available in Avatar's
      > Early Dances book, and that they should buy one if they can.
      >
      > Hope this clarifies things,
      >
      > Fernando
      >
      >

      --
      Christian M. Cepel - Thistledowne Productions - http://thistledowne.org
      Computer Support Specialist, Sr. - University of Missouri - Columbia
      College of Education - School of Info Science & Learning Technologies
      VRCbd, KidTools & StrategyTools Support Systems Projects, and Truman,
      Library Whistlestop Project - Web Design & Programming - 573.999.2370



      --
      Christian M. Cepel - Thistledowne Productions - http://thistledowne.org
      Computer Support Specialist, Sr. - University of Missouri - Columbia
      College of Education - School of Info Science & Learning Technologies
      VRCbd, KidTools & StrategyTools Support Systems Projects, and Truman,
      Library Whistlestop Project - Web Design & Programming - 573.999.2370



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Carol O'Connell
      Hi! Here I am! Fernando e-mailed me for info for the Bards¹ list (I¹m not on that list). Anyway, hope the info is useful. The other pieces you asked about
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
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        Hi! Here I am!
        Fernando e-mailed me for info for the Bards¹ list (I¹m not on that list).
        Anyway, hope the info is useful.

        The other pieces you asked about are also from Al¹s book (Early Dances). And
        thanks for taking off the website right away! The Cofrin books really are
        terrific. I use those books more than any others‹and by a long shot. I
        highly recommend them.

        I¹m not sure what the question is. Geoffrey has two nice arrangements (Ly
        Bens and Contrapasso) that we use a lot. He¹s from Dragonscale Consort, in
        the Middle. He¹s a very nice fellow, and I¹m sure he¹d give you permission
        to use his pieces if you asked him, but I don¹t think he gives a full-use
        permission on his music, either.

        Anyway, I think I missed something. What¹s the question?

        Thanks!
        Conna




        On 2/8/07 11:42 AM, "Christian M. Cepel" <christian@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thank you. Very complete answer. So I'm partially right and partially
        > wrong. It also means that I need to get CrystalBall23 pdf off the
        > stone's music site asap. Ok. Done. Sorry to Conna and Al.
        >
        > I'm curious about those files I mentioned that are under the name of
        > another but that stylistically look identical to the layout used by Al
        > Cafrin's music. What's the deal there.
        >
        > Also, on the Calontir Camerata group, someone suggested I use this copy
        > instead with this comment
        >
        > ---------------------------
        >
        > http://members.cox.net/calonkat/Lilies2004/ has Geoffrey of Exeter's
        > transcription, which included a newly written descant line. As well as
        > some links for dance music if you want to find more, that would
        > definitely be free for distribution in the SCA.
        >
        > ---------------------------
        >
        > I mailed back last night the following, and I'd like to hear opinions here as
        > well.
        >
        > ---------------------------
        >
        > I'm having a little difficulty with the Geoffrey of Exeter
        > transcription. If the Cofrin transcription is indeed legally
        > copyrighted, then I don't think changing one note in 11th and 12th
        > measures of the second voice, and keeping every note of the other three
        > voices exactly the same would in any way be legal grounds for claiming
        > that Cofrin's copyright did not apply and that it could as you say be
        > free for distribution in the SCA. Maybe someone else knows musical
        > copyright law better than I do, but I think this is real shaky. The
        > descant line could of course copyrighted and rights extended to the SCA.
        >
        > I very much like the descant line btw.... Stylistically would it be
        > considered a match for the period? I'm not asking because I have
        > doubts, but rather because I do not know. I had the embarrassing
        > experience of saying how much I liked Duchess Rondallynn's Pavanne (
        > Implied in that is how I thought it sounded 'medieval' ) only to be told
        > that it was a Mannheim Steamroller (or was it Allen Parson's Project)...
        > anyways, completely modern.
        >
        > ---------------------------
        >
        > Any opinions? I'm a little confused about the second hand thing. I
        > thought Mistress Conna was on this list?
        >
        > Fvigil@... <mailto:Fvigil%40aol.com> wrote:
        >> >
        >> >
        >> > Conna indicates that she uses his arrangements because she thinks
        >> > they are better than the others available, and because she (and a
        >> > few other folks) have his specific permission to use them in their
        >> > music pits.
        >> >
        >> > She has permission to e-mail them privately to people who request
        >> > them from her, so that they can practice for each ball, and she
        >> > only sends them to people who tell her they will be there. But
        >> > those people do not have permission to use them for other things
        >> > without purchasing his book. (available at:
        >> > http://www.istanpitta.com/i_009.htm)
        >> >
        >> > He specifically does not make them available online. And he denied
        >> > permission for them to be used at balls when the organizer
        >> > wanted put downloadable pdfs on the web.
        >> >
        >> > Conna also notes that she makes a point of telling the musicians
        >> > in her pits that these arrangements are available in Avatar's
        >> > Early Dances book, and that they should buy one if they can.
        >> >
        >> > Hope this clarifies things,
        >> >
        >> > Fernando
        >> >
        >> >






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Christian M. Cepel
        Hrm... how to explain. First let me preface this with a statement by saying that the reason I m asking is because I m doing transcriptions and such and I d
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
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          Hrm... how to explain. First let me preface this with a statement by
          saying that the reason I'm asking is because I'm doing transcriptions
          and such and I'd like a road map to negotiate these treacherous waters.

          Supposing that Al's arrangement is copyrighted, meaning by which, that
          he reserves the right to grant use to other people who might re-notate
          his arrangement. (i.e., as a starting place to then be modified) I.e.,
          the copyright is not on the page layout and font and how it looks, but
          on the musical content. Al has (I gather) not offered unlimited rights
          to his arrangement, and therefore using it in another notation, even
          with some original material would be forbidden. (in this case, 2 notes
          and a descant line)

          The Geoffrey arrangement of the Carolingian Pavane is note for note
          exactly the same except for one note in the 11th measure in the 2nd
          voice, and one note in the 12th measure. Just to be thorough, I should
          also note that the notation has been transposed down an octave (not in
          pitch, but in notation) so that a G clef might be used on the stave
          rather than a G clef sub 8va. Geoffrey's descant (which is wonderful
          btw) is added below that.

          As Geoffry has allowed a much greater use of his music than Al has, he
          has essentially released copyrighted material with restrictions as his
          own with fewer restrictions in violation of the restrictions of the
          source material. Without restrictions, there would be nothing to stop me
          or anybody else from copyrighted piece verbatim, changing a couple of
          notes and then releasing it as our own with no acknowledgment of the
          original arranger.... in a sense, even implying that the entire
          arrangement was done by me. This particular thing does come down to a
          matter of honesty I think, and the same standards used to define
          plagiarism should be used when deciding something like this if there
          were a grievance.

          I was using this example to ask the questions....
          1. How much has to be changed before a piece of music can be considered
          a different arrangement with no credit given to the source
          2. Can a rights restricted arrangement be used as a starting place for a
          new arrangement if X% is going to be changed, and then the new
          arrangement be copyrightable with it's own rights assignments?

          I wonder... We do this all the time with bagpipe settings for the
          BCFDP&D, and it's always bothered me. We'll change a note we don't like
          or a doubling or grip, and then stick a new 'arrangement' credit on it.

          I also wonder because there are three pieces I mentioned earlier in the
          CB23 packet that look stylistically engraved in an identical manner to
          Al Cofrin's, which leads me to wonder if they are actually original
          arrangements or what we call in the bagpipe band "white-out" or "cut and
          paste" arrangements, or if Al released his computer source files to
          others to edit, or perhaps a template (which would be a clever idea).
          Just curious. They are Jenny Pluck Pears, War (Guerre) Bransle, and Hole
          in the Wall (I don't care what you say people!!! I love it :) )

          Anyways.

          I guess I can hope to one day meet Mr Cofrin. I'm glad that there isn't
          bad blood as I had begun to suspect.

          Best,

          "Merry" Turlough Merriwether Lutre




          Carol O'Connell wrote:
          > Hi! Here I am!
          > Fernando e-mailed me for info for the Bards¹ list (I¹m not on that list).
          > Anyway, hope the info is useful.
          >
          > The other pieces you asked about are also from Al¹s book (Early Dances). And
          > thanks for taking off the website right away! The Cofrin books really are
          > terrific. I use those books more than any others‹and by a long shot. I
          > highly recommend them.
          >
          > I¹m not sure what the question is. Geoffrey has two nice arrangements (Ly
          > Bens and Contrapasso) that we use a lot. He¹s from Dragonscale Consort, in
          > the Middle. He¹s a very nice fellow, and I¹m sure he¹d give you permission
          > to use his pieces if you asked him, but I don¹t think he gives a full-use
          > permission on his music, either.
          >
          > Anyway, I think I missed something. What¹s the question?
          >
          > Thanks!
          > Conna
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > On 2/8/07 11:42 AM, "Christian M. Cepel" <christian@...> wrote:
          >
          >> Thank you. Very complete answer. So I'm partially right and partially
          >> wrong. It also means that I need to get CrystalBall23 pdf off the
          >> stone's music site asap. Ok. Done. Sorry to Conna and Al.
          >>

          --
          Christian M. Cepel - Thistledowne Productions - http://thistledowne.org
          Computer Support Specialist, Sr. - University of Missouri - Columbia
          College of Education - School of Info Science & Learning Technologies
          VRCbd, KidTools & StrategyTools Support Systems Projects, and Truman,
          Library Whistlestop Project - Web Design & Programming - 573.999.2370
        • Christian M. Cepel
          Oooh.. have to be careful to be clear because it s email and no nuances come across. I am in no way impugning Geoffrey, his arrangement (love the descant), or
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
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            Oooh.. have to be careful to be clear because it's email and no nuances
            come across.

            I am in no way impugning Geoffrey, his arrangement (love the descant),
            or his honesty btw. For all I know Al gave him permission, or there's
            some other reason why things are ok.

            I was simply using the example because I came across it and it got me
            curious to get a question answered that has been bugging me for a long
            long time.
          • Carol O'Connell
            Carolingian/Belle Qui--that s Arbeau. Didn t Arbeau provide the harmony lines in his original? I m still at work, so I can t check my copy of Orcheosography
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
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              Carolingian/Belle Qui--that's Arbeau. Didn't Arbeau provide the harmony
              lines in his original? I'm still at work, so I can't check my copy of
              Orcheosography (or apparently even spell it--LOL!).

              Within the SCA, I think there are several arrangements of Belle Qui, all
              with pretty much the same harmony. (Steve Hendrick's site also has a nice
              one.) I suspect they all simply transcribed Arbeau into modern notation, but
              I don't know for sure. But Playford, for example, only provided the melody
              line, so those harmonies vary greatly from arranger to arranger.

              I know hardly anything about music arrangement copyright. My gut tells me
              that you're right--Geoffrey's descant would be protected under copyright. I
              also know that Avatar/Al Cofrin considers his original transcription work to
              be under copyright protection. I don't know that this applies to this
              particular piece of music, but he did tell me, in general, that for a lot of
              the pieces in his book, he went back to the original sources and transcribed
              them into modern notation. And on others, he wrote a harmony where none
              existed. That sort of thing.

              In my opinion, it sounds like the bagpiper arrangements you describe--well,
              I think they're cheaters. I don’t think it's right at all to tweak a few
              notes here or there and then stick my own name on it. But if I started with
              the historic melody line only, then did my own harmony--that's all mine.

              If I only wanted to tweak it in a few spots, for use within my own group
              only (and not sell it for profit), I'd leave the arranger's name on it and
              make a footnote about where it was tweaked and by whom. 'Cause really all
              you're doing is adding an embellishment or improvisation to the original.
              But that's all just my personal opinion, for what it's worth. :)

              And the three arrangements (Jenny, War, and Hole) are all from Avatar's
              book. Seriously, put this book on your birthday wish list. ;)

              And you should definitely meet him. Avatar's group, Istanpitta, will be
              playing at the St. Louis Ren Faire (in Wentzville--a very easy drive from
              Columbia). The Fair runs over four weekends in May/June. I don't remember
              which weekend he'll be there; he typically plays only one weekend out of the
              four. I'll post when I hear.

              Conna




              On 2/8/07 5:30 PM, "Christian M. Cepel" <christian@...> wrote:

              > Hrm... how to explain. First let me preface this with a statement by
              > saying that the reason I'm asking is because I'm doing transcriptions
              > and such and I'd like a road map to negotiate these treacherous waters.
              >
              > Supposing that Al's arrangement is copyrighted, meaning by which, that
              > he reserves the right to grant use to other people who might re-notate
              > his arrangement. (i.e., as a starting place to then be modified) I.e.,
              > the copyright is not on the page layout and font and how it looks, but
              > on the musical content. Al has (I gather) not offered unlimited rights
              > to his arrangement, and therefore using it in another notation, even
              > with some original material would be forbidden. (in this case, 2 notes
              > and a descant line)
              >
              > The Geoffrey arrangement of the Carolingian Pavane is note for note
              > exactly the same except for one note in the 11th measure in the 2nd
              > voice, and one note in the 12th measure. Just to be thorough, I should
              > also note that the notation has been transposed down an octave (not in
              > pitch, but in notation) so that a G clef might be used on the stave
              > rather than a G clef sub 8va. Geoffrey's descant (which is wonderful
              > btw) is added below that.
              >
              > As Geoffry has allowed a much greater use of his music than Al has, he
              > has essentially released copyrighted material with restrictions as his
              > own with fewer restrictions in violation of the restrictions of the
              > source material. Without restrictions, there would be nothing to stop me
              > or anybody else from copyrighted piece verbatim, changing a couple of
              > notes and then releasing it as our own with no acknowledgment of the
              > original arranger.... in a sense, even implying that the entire
              > arrangement was done by me. This particular thing does come down to a
              > matter of honesty I think, and the same standards used to define
              > plagiarism should be used when deciding something like this if there
              > were a grievance.
              >
              > I was using this example to ask the questions....
              > 1. How much has to be changed before a piece of music can be considered
              > a different arrangement with no credit given to the source
              > 2. Can a rights restricted arrangement be used as a starting place for a
              > new arrangement if X% is going to be changed, and then the new
              > arrangement be copyrightable with it's own rights assignments?
              >
              > I wonder... We do this all the time with bagpipe settings for the
              > BCFDP&D, and it's always bothered me. We'll change a note we don't like
              > or a doubling or grip, and then stick a new 'arrangement' credit on it.
              >
              > I also wonder because there are three pieces I mentioned earlier in the
              > CB23 packet that look stylistically engraved in an identical manner to
              > Al Cofrin's, which leads me to wonder if they are actually original
              > arrangements or what we call in the bagpipe band "white-out" or "cut and
              > paste" arrangements, or if Al released his computer source files to
              > others to edit, or perhaps a template (which would be a clever idea).
              > Just curious. They are Jenny Pluck Pears, War (Guerre) Bransle, and Hole
              > in the Wall (I don't care what you say people!!! I love it :) )
              >
              > Anyways.
              >
              > I guess I can hope to one day meet Mr Cofrin. I'm glad that there isn't
              > bad blood as I had begun to suspect.
              >
              > Best,
              >
              > "Merry" Turlough Merriwether Lutre
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Carol O'Connell wrote:
              >> Hi! Here I am!
              >> Fernando e-mailed me for info for the Bards¹ list (I¹m not on that list).
              >> Anyway, hope the info is useful.
              >>
              >> The other pieces you asked about are also from Al¹s book (Early Dances). And
              >> thanks for taking off the website right away! The Cofrin books really are
              >> terrific. I use those books more than any others?and by a long shot. I
              >> highly recommend them.
              >>
              >> I¹m not sure what the question is. Geoffrey has two nice arrangements (Ly
              >> Bens and Contrapasso) that we use a lot. He¹s from Dragonscale Consort, in
              >> the Middle. He¹s a very nice fellow, and I¹m sure he¹d give you permission
              >> to use his pieces if you asked him, but I don¹t think he gives a full-use
              >> permission on his music, either.
              >>
              >> Anyway, I think I missed something. What¹s the question?
              >>
              >> Thanks!
              >> Conna
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> On 2/8/07 11:42 AM, "Christian M. Cepel" <christian@...> wrote:
              >>
              >>> Thank you. Very complete answer. So I'm partially right and partially
              >>> wrong. It also means that I need to get CrystalBall23 pdf off the
              >>> stone's music site asap. Ok. Done. Sorry to Conna and Al.
              >>>
            • Katriana
              I m not going to touch the copyright questions, except to point out that anything published before 1923 is free of copyright. If you follow the link I gave in
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
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                I'm not going to touch the copyright questions, except to point out that
                anything published before 1923 is free of copyright. If you follow the
                link I gave in my earlier email (on the camerata list) there is a photo
                reproduction of Orchesography

                http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=musdi&fileName=219/musdi219.db&recNum=61

                which dates from 1589. The top line is the drum beat and the next four
                lines are the melody, "alto" tenor and bass. The bar line that goes
                through the C clef is G (if I remember correctly). I believe you will
                find that most modern versions use Arbeau as a starting point (which is
                what I was recommending to you) and then "tweak" the tune if they feel
                it necessary. Doing your own transcription off the original should be
                completely free for you to use. The English words I gave you were
                transcribed (not translated) from the 1948 Mary Stewart Evans
                translation, republished by Dover.

                http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/dicatlg.html
                has a list of many dance books available at the Library of Congress
                online, you might also look at the English Dancing Master by John
                Playford (well, compiled by John Playford), it is the source of most of
                the English Country Dances we do in the Society.

                katriana
              • Christian M. Cepel
                ... Splendid. Thank you for your answers. I looked at the http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=musdi&fileName=219/musdi219.db&recNum=61 original last
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
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                  Carol O'Connell wrote:
                  > And the three arrangements (Jenny, War, and Hole) are all from Avatar's
                  > book. Seriously, put this book on your birthday wish list. ;)
                  >
                  Splendid. Thank you for your answers. I looked at the
                  http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=musdi&fileName=219/musdi219.db&recNum=61
                  original last night and found it to be different than Al's (thought I
                  didn't look too deeply once I found differences as I was just confirming
                  that it was indeed an 'arrangement' and not a 'transcription', but of
                  course the music says that on on transcriptions he says 'transcription' :)

                  I think it would indeed be a worthwhile investment. (plus it will help
                  endear me to him in case I wanna ask him for permission to do stuff with
                  it *conniving look* *grin*).

                  Based on what you said above, three people have put their names to
                  Avatar's arrangements. Is that not odd, or is it common?
                • Carol O'Connell
                  Rock on, Music Goddess! And I had no idea bout the LOC link. Thanks! That s very handy. So in Katriana s link to the Arbeau page in the LOC, the Superius line
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 9, 2007
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                    Rock on, Music Goddess! And I had no idea bout the LOC link. Thanks! That's
                    very handy.

                    So in Katriana's link to the Arbeau page in the LOC, the Superius line
                    starts on a G, just like on all the published pieces. (You determine the "C"
                    note by the line that goes through the boxy-looking clef mark at the far
                    left. And the C with the vertical line is just the time signature thingy.)

                    Thanks, Katriana!

                    Conna

                    On 2/8/07 6:38 PM, "Katriana" <calonkat@...> wrote:

                    > I'm not going to touch the copyright questions, except to point out that
                    > anything published before 1923 is free of copyright. If you follow the
                    > link I gave in my earlier email (on the camerata list) there is a photo
                    > reproduction of Orchesography
                    >
                    > http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=musdi&fileName=219/musdi219.db&rec
                    > Num=61
                    >
                    > which dates from 1589. The top line is the drum beat and the next four
                    > lines are the melody, "alto" tenor and bass. The bar line that goes
                    > through the C clef is G (if I remember correctly). I believe you will
                    > find that most modern versions use Arbeau as a starting point (which is
                    > what I was recommending to you) and then "tweak" the tune if they feel
                    > it necessary. Doing your own transcription off the original should be
                    > completely free for you to use. The English words I gave you were
                    > transcribed (not translated) from the 1948 Mary Stewart Evans
                    > translation, republished by Dover.
                    >
                    > http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/dicatlg.html
                    > has a list of many dance books available at the Library of Congress
                    > online, you might also look at the English Dancing Master by John
                    > Playford (well, compiled by John Playford), it is the source of most of
                    > the English Country Dances we do in the Society.
                    >
                    > katriana
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Carol O'Connell
                    ... I thought they all had their little tweaks and stuff. Right? And who knows which came first. Once upon a time, Avatar did tell me that these early
                    Message 9 of 9 , Feb 9, 2007
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                      On 2/8/07 6:56 PM, "Christian M. Cepel" <christian@...> wrote:
                      > <Giant snip>
                      >
                      > Based on what you said above, three people have put their names to
                      > Avatar's arrangements. Is that not odd, or is it common?
                      >
                      I thought they all had their little tweaks and stuff. Right? And who knows
                      which came first. Once upon a time, Avatar did tell me that these early
                      published pieces contain a lot of musical errors (probably typesetting
                      mistakes). Musicologists have all pretty much agreed on the typos, and they
                      fix them in modern editions. Maybe this explains why you¹re finding three
                      that are identical, but that don¹t quite match the original? They¹ve all
                      ³stolen² from Arbeau and fixed the typos?

                      I have to confess that this is not my field at all, and I¹m completely
                      lacking in the patience to sit and compare each version against the other. I
                      just wanna play them! ;) But Katriana knows all about this stuff, thank
                      goodness!

                      Cheers!
                      Conna


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