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Re: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.

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  • Carol O'Connell
    I¹ll never forget the time, many years ago now, I was sitting in a St. Louis Symphony concert, and they started playing Hole in the Wall. I nearly fell over.
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 3, 2005
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      I¹ll never forget the time, many years ago now, I was sitting in a St. Louis
      Symphony concert, and they started playing Hole in the Wall. I nearly fell
      over. Yep, they were performing a Purcell piece. Blew my mind.

      And for the record, as far as Scotland the Brave, I¹m agin it, as our
      southern cousins would say.

      Nothing draws me out of the Middle Ages faster than music that¹s grossly out
      of period. That goes for lovely instruments like Highland pipes, too. This
      stuff would all be great if we were trying to recreate a later time period.
      But I like our chosen time period. There¹s so much in it to love. Once I
      took the plunge whole-heartedly, I don¹t seem to miss the out-of-period
      stuff anymore. There¹s so much we have in period that I¹ll never run out of
      ³new² things to learn!

      Conna


      On 11/3/05 4:47 PM, "Christian M. Cepel" <christian@...> wrote:

      >
      > So does this guy have it wrong? His site says Hole in the Wall -
      > Playford 1 - 1651?
      >
      > Could he be instead referring to Purcell's "Hornpipe" which the music
      > from Lilies XIV Ball states it's a 6/8 variant of? This guy's is in
      > 3/4, but looks very similar from a quick glance.
      >
      > On the top of that same Lilies Ball page it does say Playford(1698).
      > How should I resolve the discrepancy?
      >
      > Thanks.
      >
      > I guess that I just hate that one of the few songs I know how to play
      > and play well, and enjoy playing and ornamenting is out on its
      > collective ear, with a bootprint on to boot.
      >
      > //Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
      >
      > Stewart, Sara wrote:
      >> > I am sorry I meant the music for Hole in the Wall was composed in 1695.
      >> > Good questions though
      >> > Seonaid
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > -----Original Message-----
      >> > From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
      >> > [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Sara
      >> > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:34 PM
      >> > To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
      >> > Subject: RE: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.
      >> >
      >> > Hey
      >> > The dance for Hole in the Wall is from 1698 which I believe is Playford
      >> > 3. We tend to try and do dances from Playford 1 (1651) The music was
      >> > composed in 1695.
      >> > Sellinger's Round by the way is from Playford 2. I do not know about
      >> > trenchmore, but all the other's you listed are Playford 1, I think.
      >> > I would not agree that Scotland the Brave is still hugged close.
      >> >
      >> > Seonaid
      >> >
      >> > -----Original Message-----
      >> > From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
      >> > [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christian M. Cepel
      >> > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:30 PM
      >> > To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
      >> > Subject: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.
      >> >
      >> > I expect folks already know of this, but if not, it seems a treasure
      >> > trove to me. Looks to be notated in Finale to me.
      >> >
      >> > http://sca.waterloo.ca/Hendricks/
      >> >
      >> > This leads me to a question I've been having for a while. Why has such
      >> > a wonderful (if overly requested) tune such as Hole in the Wall been
      >> > ostracized so horribly, when other tunes from the same Playford Dances
      >> > and Ballads ~ 1651 are fair game... I.e., Heart's Ease, Black nag, Jenny
      >> > Pluck Pears, Nonesuch, Parson's Farewell (I think), Gathering Peascods
      >> > (I think), Rufty Tufty, Sellenger's Round, Trenchmore to name all the
      >> > ones I recognize from that list.
      >> >
      >> > Is it because there are earlier sources for all these works other than
      >> > Hole in the Wall, than the 1651 Playford?
      >> >
      >> > I don't understand.
      >> >
      >> > I also don't understand why Scotland the Brave, a slightly campy tune
      >> > from 1891-5 is still hugged close while Hole in the Wall is beaten off
      >> > with a stick and the dogs are set on it.
      >> >
      >> > Thanks for any elucidation!
      >> >
      >> >






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Stewart, Sara
      Purcell s hornpipe is the same tune and was written in the 1690s. I believe I have a copy of Playford 1 if you would like to see it. Seonaid ... From:
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 3, 2005
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        Purcell's hornpipe is the same tune and was written in the 1690s.
        I believe I have a copy of Playford 1 if you would like to see it.
        Seonaid

        -----Original Message-----
        From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christian M. Cepel
        Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:47 PM
        To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.


        So does this guy have it wrong? His site says Hole in the Wall -
        Playford 1 - 1651?

        Could he be instead referring to Purcell's "Hornpipe" which the music
        from Lilies XIV Ball states it's a 6/8 variant of? This guy's is in
        3/4, but looks very similar from a quick glance.

        On the top of that same Lilies Ball page it does say Playford(1698).
        How should I resolve the discrepancy?

        Thanks.

        I guess that I just hate that one of the few songs I know how to play
        and play well, and enjoy playing and ornamenting is out on its
        collective ear, with a bootprint on to boot.

        //Philippe Sebastian LeLutre

        Stewart, Sara wrote:
        > I am sorry I meant the music for Hole in the Wall was composed in
        1695.
        > Good questions though
        > Seonaid
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Sara
        > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:34 PM
        > To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.
        >
        > Hey
        > The dance for Hole in the Wall is from 1698 which I believe is
        > Playford 3. We tend to try and do dances from Playford 1 (1651) The
        > music was composed in 1695.
        > Sellinger's Round by the way is from Playford 2. I do not know about
        > trenchmore, but all the other's you listed are Playford 1, I think.
        > I would not agree that Scotland the Brave is still hugged close.
        >
        > Seonaid
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christian M. Cepel
        > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:30 PM
        > To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.
        >
        > I expect folks already know of this, but if not, it seems a treasure
        > trove to me. Looks to be notated in Finale to me.
        >
        > http://sca.waterloo.ca/Hendricks/
        >
        > This leads me to a question I've been having for a while. Why has
        > such a wonderful (if overly requested) tune such as Hole in the Wall
        > been ostracized so horribly, when other tunes from the same Playford
        > Dances and Ballads ~ 1651 are fair game... I.e., Heart's Ease, Black
        > nag, Jenny Pluck Pears, Nonesuch, Parson's Farewell (I think),
        > Gathering Peascods (I think), Rufty Tufty, Sellenger's Round,
        > Trenchmore to name all the ones I recognize from that list.
        >
        > Is it because there are earlier sources for all these works other than

        > Hole in the Wall, than the 1651 Playford?
        >
        > I don't understand.
        >
        > I also don't understand why Scotland the Brave, a slightly campy tune
        > from 1891-5 is still hugged close while Hole in the Wall is beaten off

        > with a stick and the dogs are set on it.
        >
        > Thanks for any elucidation!
        >
        >

        --
        //Christian

        Christian Marcus Cepel | And the wrens have returned &
        christian@... icq:12384980 | are nesting; In the hollow of
        371 Crown Point, Columbia, MO | that oak where his heart once
        65203-2202 573.999.2370 | had been; And he lifts up his
        Computer Support Specialist, Sr. | arms in a blessing; For being
        University of Missouri - Columbia | born again. --Rich Mullins


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      • Christian M. Cepel
        That would be a treat! Thank you. ... -- //Christian Christian Marcus Cepel | And the wrens have returned & christian@cepel.org icq:12384980 | are
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 3, 2005
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          That would be a treat! Thank you.

          Stewart, Sara wrote:
          > Purcell's hornpipe is the same tune and was written in the 1690s.
          > I believe I have a copy of Playford 1 if you would like to see it.
          > Seonaid
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christian M. Cepel
          > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:47 PM
          > To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.
          >
          >
          > So does this guy have it wrong? His site says Hole in the Wall -
          > Playford 1 - 1651?
          >
          > Could he be instead referring to Purcell's "Hornpipe" which the music
          > from Lilies XIV Ball states it's a 6/8 variant of? This guy's is in
          > 3/4, but looks very similar from a quick glance.
          >
          > On the top of that same Lilies Ball page it does say Playford(1698).
          > How should I resolve the discrepancy?
          >
          > Thanks.
          >
          > I guess that I just hate that one of the few songs I know how to play
          > and play well, and enjoy playing and ornamenting is out on its
          > collective ear, with a bootprint on to boot.
          >
          > //Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
          >
          > Stewart, Sara wrote:
          >
          >>I am sorry I meant the music for Hole in the Wall was composed in
          >
          > 1695.
          >
          >>Good questions though
          >>Seonaid
          >>
          >>
          >>-----Original Message-----
          >>From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
          >>[mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Sara
          >>Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:34 PM
          >>To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
          >>Subject: RE: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.
          >>
          >>Hey
          >>The dance for Hole in the Wall is from 1698 which I believe is
          >>Playford 3. We tend to try and do dances from Playford 1 (1651) The
          >>music was composed in 1695.
          >>Sellinger's Round by the way is from Playford 2. I do not know about
          >>trenchmore, but all the other's you listed are Playford 1, I think.
          >>I would not agree that Scotland the Brave is still hugged close.
          >>
          >>Seonaid
          >>
          >>-----Original Message-----
          >>From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
          >>[mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christian M. Cepel
          >>Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:30 PM
          >>To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
          >>Subject: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.
          >>
          >>I expect folks already know of this, but if not, it seems a treasure
          >>trove to me. Looks to be notated in Finale to me.
          >>
          >>http://sca.waterloo.ca/Hendricks/
          >>
          >>This leads me to a question I've been having for a while. Why has
          >>such a wonderful (if overly requested) tune such as Hole in the Wall
          >>been ostracized so horribly, when other tunes from the same Playford
          >>Dances and Ballads ~ 1651 are fair game... I.e., Heart's Ease, Black
          >>nag, Jenny Pluck Pears, Nonesuch, Parson's Farewell (I think),
          >>Gathering Peascods (I think), Rufty Tufty, Sellenger's Round,
          >>Trenchmore to name all the ones I recognize from that list.
          >>
          >>Is it because there are earlier sources for all these works other than
          >
          >
          >>Hole in the Wall, than the 1651 Playford?
          >>
          >>I don't understand.
          >>
          >>I also don't understand why Scotland the Brave, a slightly campy tune
          >>from 1891-5 is still hugged close while Hole in the Wall is beaten off
          >
          >
          >>with a stick and the dogs are set on it.
          >>
          >>Thanks for any elucidation!
          >>
          >>
          >
          >

          --
          //Christian

          Christian Marcus Cepel | And the wrens have returned &
          christian@... icq:12384980 | are nesting; In the hollow of
          371 Crown Point, Columbia, MO | that oak where his heart once
          65203-2202 573.999.2370 | had been; And he lifts up his
          Computer Support Specialist, Sr. | arms in a blessing; For being
          University of Missouri - Columbia | born again. --Rich Mullins
        • Christian M. Cepel
          I m confused again. To my knowledge, a hornpipe is 2/4 or 4/4 with each 8th note in the quarter quantized at approximately 150% and 50%, when played, or more
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 3, 2005
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            I'm confused again. To my knowledge, a hornpipe is 2/4 or 4/4 with each
            8th note in the quarter quantized at approximately 150% and 50%, when
            played, or more like 3/16 + 1/16, and
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornpipe and all my experience with Irish
            music & abc notation back this up. (actually there's a bit on the wiki
            that I didn't know, the 3/2 bit)


            So... how can Purcell's or HITW be in 3/4 or 6/8


            Christian M. Cepel wrote:
            > That would be a treat! Thank you.
            >
            > Stewart, Sara wrote:
            >
            >>Purcell's hornpipe is the same tune and was written in the 1690s.
            >>I believe I have a copy of Playford 1 if you would like to see it.
            >>Seonaid
            >>

            --
            //Christian

            Christian Marcus Cepel | And the wrens have returned &
            christian@... icq:12384980 | are nesting; In the hollow of
            371 Crown Point, Columbia, MO | that oak where his heart once
            65203-2202 573.999.2370 | had been; And he lifts up his
            Computer Support Specialist, Sr. | arms in a blessing; For being
            University of Missouri - Columbia | born again. --Rich Mullins
          • Carol O'Connell
            HITW fits the second definition on the website you supplied. Baroque and in a 3/2 time. When we play HITW, we count it in 3. (Don¹t get too hung up on the
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 4, 2005
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              HITW fits the second definition on the website you supplied. Baroque and in
              a 3/2 time.

              When we play HITW, we count it in 3. (Don¹t get too hung up on the time
              signature on SCA music; sometimes arrangers just shoehorn things in as best
              they can.)

              Conna

              On 11/3/05 9:08 PM, "Christian M. Cepel" <christian@...> wrote:

              > I'm confused again. To my knowledge, a hornpipe is 2/4 or 4/4 with each
              > 8th note in the quarter quantized at approximately 150% and 50%, when
              > played, or more like 3/16 + 1/16, and
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornpipe and all my experience with Irish
              > music & abc notation back this up. (actually there's a bit on the wiki
              > that I didn't know, the 3/2 bit)
              >
              >
              > So... how can Purcell's or HITW be in 3/4 or 6/8
              >
              >
              > Christian M. Cepel wrote:
              >> > That would be a treat! Thank you.
              >> >
              >> > Stewart, Sara wrote:
              >> >
              >>> >>Purcell's hornpipe is the same tune and was written in the 1690s.
              >>> >>I believe I have a copy of Playford 1 if you would like to see it.
              >>> >>Seonaid
              >>> >>






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Keith McClune
              Hi there: Catching up from a few days ago ... ... Because they are not from the same source. As others have pointed out, HitW is from 1698 (9th edition of
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 6, 2005
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                Hi there:

                Catching up from a few days ago ...

                "Christian M. Cepel" wrote:
                >
                > ... Why has such
                > a wonderful (if overly requested) tune such as Hole in the Wall been
                > ostracized so horribly, when other tunes from the same Playford Dances
                > and Ballads ~ 1651 are fair game...

                Because they are not from the same source. As others have pointed out, HitW is
                from 1698 (9th edition of "The Dancing Master", published, I think, by John
                Playford's son, Henry), and is in a distinctly different style from the earlier
                1651-1653 dances you listed.

                It is partly because dancers can easily become confused, as you did, about what
                period a dance came from that some people ... discourage ... such dances/tunes.
                Personally, I find the endless repetition of the HitW tune tedious, as well.

                BTW, it was called a hornpipe because, well, that's what Purcell called it.

                There is an excellent on line resource for studying Playford dances at:

                http://www.izaak.unh.edu/nhltmd/indexes/dancingmaster/

                This site provides a database with every dance from every edition of Playford
                (24 volumes containing 1,053 unique dances: with duplicates, 6,217 dances).
                By comparing different editions, it is obvious that some dances kept the same
                name but were utterly changed over the years (both music and steps). There was
                also a dramatic shift between the 8th and 11th editions. While many first
                edition dances are found in the 8th, I don't think any dances from 8 made it
                through to 11 (I could be wrong - I have not looked carefully).

                This site does have an index by title.

                Each dance has a facsimile of an original, but only one facsimile per dance
                (no matter how many editions it was in). I think it's the best quality print
                they could get, as it is often not the oldest. There is a coded reference to
                the figures (permitting an easy search for similar figures between dances).
                Any differences between editions are given in notes, so you have to check the
                notes to see if there was any variations between one edition and another (links
                for all editions of a dance go to the same page, unless they are significantly
                different).

                > I also don't understand why Scotland the Brave, a slightly campy tune
                > from 1891-5 is still hugged close while Hole in the Wall is beaten off
                > with a stick and the dogs are set on it.

                This must be a regional phenomenon, as I have found Scotland the Brave more
                likely to be frowned upon (if any distinction is made at all). Hopefully,
                you don't have to put up with waltzes, as I do.

                Keith / Guillaume S:}>
                Caerthe, Outlands
              • Christian M. Cepel
                Ack. This whole discussion was a mistake on my part. Sorry. First of all, the website should have been http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/Hendricks/ instead of
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 7, 2005
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                  Ack. This whole discussion was a mistake on my part. Sorry.

                  First of all, the website should have been
                  http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/Hendricks/ instead of
                  http://sca.waterloo.ca/Hendricks/ (note the 'u' in uwaterloo).

                  And either a) it's been fixed since I first sent out this note, or b) I
                  misread it and started the discussion on HITW based on my own mistake.

                  Either way, it does indeed say Playford 2, 1698 on that site now.

                  *embarrassed look*

                  My apologies.

                  Still, it does seem a treasure trove.

                  Thanks to all.

                  Stewart, Sara wrote:
                  > Purcell's hornpipe is the same tune and was written in the 1690s.
                  > I believe I have a copy of Playford 1 if you would like to see it.
                  > Seonaid
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christian M. Cepel
                  > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:47 PM
                  > To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.
                  >
                  >
                  > So does this guy have it wrong? His site says Hole in the Wall -
                  > Playford 1 - 1651?
                  >
                  > Could he be instead referring to Purcell's "Hornpipe" which the music
                  > from Lilies XIV Ball states it's a 6/8 variant of? This guy's is in
                  > 3/4, but looks very similar from a quick glance.
                  >
                  > On the top of that same Lilies Ball page it does say Playford(1698).
                  > How should I resolve the discrepancy?
                  >
                  > Thanks.
                  >
                  > I guess that I just hate that one of the few songs I know how to play
                  > and play well, and enjoy playing and ornamenting is out on its
                  > collective ear, with a bootprint on to boot.
                  >
                  > //Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
                  >
                  > Stewart, Sara wrote:
                  >
                  >>I am sorry I meant the music for Hole in the Wall was composed in
                  >
                  > 1695.
                  >
                  >>Good questions though
                  >>Seonaid
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>-----Original Message-----
                  >>From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
                  >>[mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Sara
                  >>Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:34 PM
                  >>To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
                  >>Subject: RE: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.
                  >>
                  >>Hey
                  >>The dance for Hole in the Wall is from 1698 which I believe is
                  >>Playford 3. We tend to try and do dances from Playford 1 (1651) The
                  >>music was composed in 1695.
                  >>Sellinger's Round by the way is from Playford 2. I do not know about
                  >>trenchmore, but all the other's you listed are Playford 1, I think.
                  >>I would not agree that Scotland the Brave is still hugged close.
                  >>
                  >>Seonaid
                  >>
                  >>-----Original Message-----
                  >>From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
                  >>[mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christian M. Cepel
                  >>Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:30 PM
                  >>To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
                  >>Subject: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.
                  >>
                  >>I expect folks already know of this, but if not, it seems a treasure
                  >>trove to me. Looks to be notated in Finale to me.
                  >>
                  >>http://sca.waterloo.ca/Hendricks/
                  >>
                  >>This leads me to a question I've been having for a while. Why has
                  >>such a wonderful (if overly requested) tune such as Hole in the Wall
                  >>been ostracized so horribly, when other tunes from the same Playford
                  >>Dances and Ballads ~ 1651 are fair game... I.e., Heart's Ease, Black
                  >>nag, Jenny Pluck Pears, Nonesuch, Parson's Farewell (I think),
                  >>Gathering Peascods (I think), Rufty Tufty, Sellenger's Round,
                  >>Trenchmore to name all the ones I recognize from that list.
                  >>
                  >>Is it because there are earlier sources for all these works other than
                  >
                  >
                  >>Hole in the Wall, than the 1651 Playford?
                  >>
                  >>I don't understand.
                  >>
                  >>I also don't understand why Scotland the Brave, a slightly campy tune
                  >>from 1891-5 is still hugged close while Hole in the Wall is beaten off
                  >
                  >
                  >>with a stick and the dogs are set on it.
                  >>
                  >>Thanks for any elucidation!
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >

                  --
                  //Christian

                  Christian Marcus Cepel | And the wrens have returned &
                  christian@... icq:12384980 | are nesting; In the hollow of
                  371 Crown Point, Columbia, MO | that oak where his heart once
                  65203-2202 573.999.2370 | had been; And he lifts up his
                  Computer Support Specialist, Sr. | arms in a blessing; For being
                  University of Missouri - Columbia | born again. --Rich Mullins
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