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RE: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.

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  • Stewart, Sara
    Hey The dance for Hole in the Wall is from 1698 which I believe is Playford 3. We tend to try and do dances from Playford 1 (1651) The music was composed in
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 3, 2005
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      Hey
      The dance for Hole in the Wall is from 1698 which I believe is Playford
      3. We tend to try and do dances from Playford 1 (1651) The music was
      composed in 1695.
      Sellinger's Round by the way is from Playford 2. I do not know about
      trenchmore, but all the other's you listed are Playford 1, I think.
      I would not agree that Scotland the Brave is still hugged close.

      Seonaid

      -----Original Message-----
      From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christian M. Cepel
      Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:30 PM
      To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.

      I expect folks already know of this, but if not, it seems a treasure
      trove to me. Looks to be notated in Finale to me.

      http://sca.waterloo.ca/Hendricks/

      This leads me to a question I've been having for a while. Why has such
      a wonderful (if overly requested) tune such as Hole in the Wall been
      ostracized so horribly, when other tunes from the same Playford Dances
      and Ballads ~ 1651 are fair game... I.e., Heart's Ease, Black nag, Jenny
      Pluck Pears, Nonesuch, Parson's Farewell (I think), Gathering Peascods
      (I think), Rufty Tufty, Sellenger's Round, Trenchmore to name all the
      ones I recognize from that list.

      Is it because there are earlier sources for all these works other than
      Hole in the Wall, than the 1651 Playford?

      I don't understand.

      I also don't understand why Scotland the Brave, a slightly campy tune
      from 1891-5 is still hugged close while Hole in the Wall is beaten off
      with a stick and the dogs are set on it.

      Thanks for any elucidation!


      --
      //Christian

      Christian Marcus Cepel | And the wrens have returned &
      christian@... icq:12384980 | are nesting; In the hollow of
      371 Crown Point, Columbia, MO | that oak where his heart once
      65203-2202 573.999.2370 | had been; And he lifts up his
      Computer Support Specialist, Sr. | arms in a blessing; For being
      University of Missouri - Columbia | born again. --Rich Mullins


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    • Stewart, Sara
      I am sorry I meant the music for Hole in the Wall was composed in 1695. Good questions though Seonaid ... From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 3, 2005
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        I am sorry I meant the music for Hole in the Wall was composed in 1695.
        Good questions though
        Seonaid


        -----Original Message-----
        From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Sara
        Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:34 PM
        To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.

        Hey
        The dance for Hole in the Wall is from 1698 which I believe is Playford
        3. We tend to try and do dances from Playford 1 (1651) The music was
        composed in 1695.
        Sellinger's Round by the way is from Playford 2. I do not know about
        trenchmore, but all the other's you listed are Playford 1, I think.
        I would not agree that Scotland the Brave is still hugged close.

        Seonaid

        -----Original Message-----
        From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christian M. Cepel
        Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:30 PM
        To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.

        I expect folks already know of this, but if not, it seems a treasure
        trove to me. Looks to be notated in Finale to me.

        http://sca.waterloo.ca/Hendricks/

        This leads me to a question I've been having for a while. Why has such
        a wonderful (if overly requested) tune such as Hole in the Wall been
        ostracized so horribly, when other tunes from the same Playford Dances
        and Ballads ~ 1651 are fair game... I.e., Heart's Ease, Black nag, Jenny
        Pluck Pears, Nonesuch, Parson's Farewell (I think), Gathering Peascods
        (I think), Rufty Tufty, Sellenger's Round, Trenchmore to name all the
        ones I recognize from that list.

        Is it because there are earlier sources for all these works other than
        Hole in the Wall, than the 1651 Playford?

        I don't understand.

        I also don't understand why Scotland the Brave, a slightly campy tune
        from 1891-5 is still hugged close while Hole in the Wall is beaten off
        with a stick and the dogs are set on it.

        Thanks for any elucidation!


        --
        //Christian

        Christian Marcus Cepel | And the wrens have returned &
        christian@... icq:12384980 | are nesting; In the hollow of
        371 Crown Point, Columbia, MO | that oak where his heart once
        65203-2202 573.999.2370 | had been; And he lifts up his
        Computer Support Specialist, Sr. | arms in a blessing; For being
        University of Missouri - Columbia | born again. --Rich Mullins


        ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
        Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home
        page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/LmiolB/TM
        --------------------------------------------------------------------~->


        Yahoo! Groups Links








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        Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home
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        --------------------------------------------------------------------~->


        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • Christian M. Cepel
        So does this guy have it wrong? His site says Hole in the Wall - Playford 1 - 1651? Could he be instead referring to Purcell s Hornpipe which the music from
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 3, 2005
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          So does this guy have it wrong? His site says Hole in the Wall -
          Playford 1 - 1651?

          Could he be instead referring to Purcell's "Hornpipe" which the music
          from Lilies XIV Ball states it's a 6/8 variant of? This guy's is in
          3/4, but looks very similar from a quick glance.

          On the top of that same Lilies Ball page it does say Playford(1698).
          How should I resolve the discrepancy?

          Thanks.

          I guess that I just hate that one of the few songs I know how to play
          and play well, and enjoy playing and ornamenting is out on its
          collective ear, with a bootprint on to boot.

          //Philippe Sebastian LeLutre

          Stewart, Sara wrote:
          > I am sorry I meant the music for Hole in the Wall was composed in 1695.
          > Good questions though
          > Seonaid
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Sara
          > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:34 PM
          > To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: RE: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.
          >
          > Hey
          > The dance for Hole in the Wall is from 1698 which I believe is Playford
          > 3. We tend to try and do dances from Playford 1 (1651) The music was
          > composed in 1695.
          > Sellinger's Round by the way is from Playford 2. I do not know about
          > trenchmore, but all the other's you listed are Playford 1, I think.
          > I would not agree that Scotland the Brave is still hugged close.
          >
          > Seonaid
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christian M. Cepel
          > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:30 PM
          > To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.
          >
          > I expect folks already know of this, but if not, it seems a treasure
          > trove to me. Looks to be notated in Finale to me.
          >
          > http://sca.waterloo.ca/Hendricks/
          >
          > This leads me to a question I've been having for a while. Why has such
          > a wonderful (if overly requested) tune such as Hole in the Wall been
          > ostracized so horribly, when other tunes from the same Playford Dances
          > and Ballads ~ 1651 are fair game... I.e., Heart's Ease, Black nag, Jenny
          > Pluck Pears, Nonesuch, Parson's Farewell (I think), Gathering Peascods
          > (I think), Rufty Tufty, Sellenger's Round, Trenchmore to name all the
          > ones I recognize from that list.
          >
          > Is it because there are earlier sources for all these works other than
          > Hole in the Wall, than the 1651 Playford?
          >
          > I don't understand.
          >
          > I also don't understand why Scotland the Brave, a slightly campy tune
          > from 1891-5 is still hugged close while Hole in the Wall is beaten off
          > with a stick and the dogs are set on it.
          >
          > Thanks for any elucidation!
          >
          >

          --
          //Christian

          Christian Marcus Cepel | And the wrens have returned &
          christian@... icq:12384980 | are nesting; In the hollow of
          371 Crown Point, Columbia, MO | that oak where his heart once
          65203-2202 573.999.2370 | had been; And he lifts up his
          Computer Support Specialist, Sr. | arms in a blessing; For being
          University of Missouri - Columbia | born again. --Rich Mullins
        • Carol O'Connell
          I¹ll never forget the time, many years ago now, I was sitting in a St. Louis Symphony concert, and they started playing Hole in the Wall. I nearly fell over.
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 3, 2005
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            I¹ll never forget the time, many years ago now, I was sitting in a St. Louis
            Symphony concert, and they started playing Hole in the Wall. I nearly fell
            over. Yep, they were performing a Purcell piece. Blew my mind.

            And for the record, as far as Scotland the Brave, I¹m agin it, as our
            southern cousins would say.

            Nothing draws me out of the Middle Ages faster than music that¹s grossly out
            of period. That goes for lovely instruments like Highland pipes, too. This
            stuff would all be great if we were trying to recreate a later time period.
            But I like our chosen time period. There¹s so much in it to love. Once I
            took the plunge whole-heartedly, I don¹t seem to miss the out-of-period
            stuff anymore. There¹s so much we have in period that I¹ll never run out of
            ³new² things to learn!

            Conna


            On 11/3/05 4:47 PM, "Christian M. Cepel" <christian@...> wrote:

            >
            > So does this guy have it wrong? His site says Hole in the Wall -
            > Playford 1 - 1651?
            >
            > Could he be instead referring to Purcell's "Hornpipe" which the music
            > from Lilies XIV Ball states it's a 6/8 variant of? This guy's is in
            > 3/4, but looks very similar from a quick glance.
            >
            > On the top of that same Lilies Ball page it does say Playford(1698).
            > How should I resolve the discrepancy?
            >
            > Thanks.
            >
            > I guess that I just hate that one of the few songs I know how to play
            > and play well, and enjoy playing and ornamenting is out on its
            > collective ear, with a bootprint on to boot.
            >
            > //Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
            >
            > Stewart, Sara wrote:
            >> > I am sorry I meant the music for Hole in the Wall was composed in 1695.
            >> > Good questions though
            >> > Seonaid
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > -----Original Message-----
            >> > From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
            >> > [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Sara
            >> > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:34 PM
            >> > To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
            >> > Subject: RE: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.
            >> >
            >> > Hey
            >> > The dance for Hole in the Wall is from 1698 which I believe is Playford
            >> > 3. We tend to try and do dances from Playford 1 (1651) The music was
            >> > composed in 1695.
            >> > Sellinger's Round by the way is from Playford 2. I do not know about
            >> > trenchmore, but all the other's you listed are Playford 1, I think.
            >> > I would not agree that Scotland the Brave is still hugged close.
            >> >
            >> > Seonaid
            >> >
            >> > -----Original Message-----
            >> > From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
            >> > [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christian M. Cepel
            >> > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:30 PM
            >> > To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
            >> > Subject: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.
            >> >
            >> > I expect folks already know of this, but if not, it seems a treasure
            >> > trove to me. Looks to be notated in Finale to me.
            >> >
            >> > http://sca.waterloo.ca/Hendricks/
            >> >
            >> > This leads me to a question I've been having for a while. Why has such
            >> > a wonderful (if overly requested) tune such as Hole in the Wall been
            >> > ostracized so horribly, when other tunes from the same Playford Dances
            >> > and Ballads ~ 1651 are fair game... I.e., Heart's Ease, Black nag, Jenny
            >> > Pluck Pears, Nonesuch, Parson's Farewell (I think), Gathering Peascods
            >> > (I think), Rufty Tufty, Sellenger's Round, Trenchmore to name all the
            >> > ones I recognize from that list.
            >> >
            >> > Is it because there are earlier sources for all these works other than
            >> > Hole in the Wall, than the 1651 Playford?
            >> >
            >> > I don't understand.
            >> >
            >> > I also don't understand why Scotland the Brave, a slightly campy tune
            >> > from 1891-5 is still hugged close while Hole in the Wall is beaten off
            >> > with a stick and the dogs are set on it.
            >> >
            >> > Thanks for any elucidation!
            >> >
            >> >






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Stewart, Sara
            Purcell s hornpipe is the same tune and was written in the 1690s. I believe I have a copy of Playford 1 if you would like to see it. Seonaid ... From:
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 3, 2005
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              Purcell's hornpipe is the same tune and was written in the 1690s.
              I believe I have a copy of Playford 1 if you would like to see it.
              Seonaid

              -----Original Message-----
              From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christian M. Cepel
              Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:47 PM
              To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.


              So does this guy have it wrong? His site says Hole in the Wall -
              Playford 1 - 1651?

              Could he be instead referring to Purcell's "Hornpipe" which the music
              from Lilies XIV Ball states it's a 6/8 variant of? This guy's is in
              3/4, but looks very similar from a quick glance.

              On the top of that same Lilies Ball page it does say Playford(1698).
              How should I resolve the discrepancy?

              Thanks.

              I guess that I just hate that one of the few songs I know how to play
              and play well, and enjoy playing and ornamenting is out on its
              collective ear, with a bootprint on to boot.

              //Philippe Sebastian LeLutre

              Stewart, Sara wrote:
              > I am sorry I meant the music for Hole in the Wall was composed in
              1695.
              > Good questions though
              > Seonaid
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Sara
              > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:34 PM
              > To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: RE: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.
              >
              > Hey
              > The dance for Hole in the Wall is from 1698 which I believe is
              > Playford 3. We tend to try and do dances from Playford 1 (1651) The
              > music was composed in 1695.
              > Sellinger's Round by the way is from Playford 2. I do not know about
              > trenchmore, but all the other's you listed are Playford 1, I think.
              > I would not agree that Scotland the Brave is still hugged close.
              >
              > Seonaid
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christian M. Cepel
              > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:30 PM
              > To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.
              >
              > I expect folks already know of this, but if not, it seems a treasure
              > trove to me. Looks to be notated in Finale to me.
              >
              > http://sca.waterloo.ca/Hendricks/
              >
              > This leads me to a question I've been having for a while. Why has
              > such a wonderful (if overly requested) tune such as Hole in the Wall
              > been ostracized so horribly, when other tunes from the same Playford
              > Dances and Ballads ~ 1651 are fair game... I.e., Heart's Ease, Black
              > nag, Jenny Pluck Pears, Nonesuch, Parson's Farewell (I think),
              > Gathering Peascods (I think), Rufty Tufty, Sellenger's Round,
              > Trenchmore to name all the ones I recognize from that list.
              >
              > Is it because there are earlier sources for all these works other than

              > Hole in the Wall, than the 1651 Playford?
              >
              > I don't understand.
              >
              > I also don't understand why Scotland the Brave, a slightly campy tune
              > from 1891-5 is still hugged close while Hole in the Wall is beaten off

              > with a stick and the dogs are set on it.
              >
              > Thanks for any elucidation!
              >
              >

              --
              //Christian

              Christian Marcus Cepel | And the wrens have returned &
              christian@... icq:12384980 | are nesting; In the hollow of
              371 Crown Point, Columbia, MO | that oak where his heart once
              65203-2202 573.999.2370 | had been; And he lifts up his
              Computer Support Specialist, Sr. | arms in a blessing; For being
              University of Missouri - Columbia | born again. --Rich Mullins


              ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
              Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home
              page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/LmiolB/TM
              --------------------------------------------------------------------~->


              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Christian M. Cepel
              That would be a treat! Thank you. ... -- //Christian Christian Marcus Cepel | And the wrens have returned & christian@cepel.org icq:12384980 | are
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 3, 2005
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                That would be a treat! Thank you.

                Stewart, Sara wrote:
                > Purcell's hornpipe is the same tune and was written in the 1690s.
                > I believe I have a copy of Playford 1 if you would like to see it.
                > Seonaid
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christian M. Cepel
                > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:47 PM
                > To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.
                >
                >
                > So does this guy have it wrong? His site says Hole in the Wall -
                > Playford 1 - 1651?
                >
                > Could he be instead referring to Purcell's "Hornpipe" which the music
                > from Lilies XIV Ball states it's a 6/8 variant of? This guy's is in
                > 3/4, but looks very similar from a quick glance.
                >
                > On the top of that same Lilies Ball page it does say Playford(1698).
                > How should I resolve the discrepancy?
                >
                > Thanks.
                >
                > I guess that I just hate that one of the few songs I know how to play
                > and play well, and enjoy playing and ornamenting is out on its
                > collective ear, with a bootprint on to boot.
                >
                > //Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
                >
                > Stewart, Sara wrote:
                >
                >>I am sorry I meant the music for Hole in the Wall was composed in
                >
                > 1695.
                >
                >>Good questions though
                >>Seonaid
                >>
                >>
                >>-----Original Message-----
                >>From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
                >>[mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Sara
                >>Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:34 PM
                >>To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
                >>Subject: RE: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.
                >>
                >>Hey
                >>The dance for Hole in the Wall is from 1698 which I believe is
                >>Playford 3. We tend to try and do dances from Playford 1 (1651) The
                >>music was composed in 1695.
                >>Sellinger's Round by the way is from Playford 2. I do not know about
                >>trenchmore, but all the other's you listed are Playford 1, I think.
                >>I would not agree that Scotland the Brave is still hugged close.
                >>
                >>Seonaid
                >>
                >>-----Original Message-----
                >>From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
                >>[mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christian M. Cepel
                >>Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:30 PM
                >>To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
                >>Subject: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.
                >>
                >>I expect folks already know of this, but if not, it seems a treasure
                >>trove to me. Looks to be notated in Finale to me.
                >>
                >>http://sca.waterloo.ca/Hendricks/
                >>
                >>This leads me to a question I've been having for a while. Why has
                >>such a wonderful (if overly requested) tune such as Hole in the Wall
                >>been ostracized so horribly, when other tunes from the same Playford
                >>Dances and Ballads ~ 1651 are fair game... I.e., Heart's Ease, Black
                >>nag, Jenny Pluck Pears, Nonesuch, Parson's Farewell (I think),
                >>Gathering Peascods (I think), Rufty Tufty, Sellenger's Round,
                >>Trenchmore to name all the ones I recognize from that list.
                >>
                >>Is it because there are earlier sources for all these works other than
                >
                >
                >>Hole in the Wall, than the 1651 Playford?
                >>
                >>I don't understand.
                >>
                >>I also don't understand why Scotland the Brave, a slightly campy tune
                >>from 1891-5 is still hugged close while Hole in the Wall is beaten off
                >
                >
                >>with a stick and the dogs are set on it.
                >>
                >>Thanks for any elucidation!
                >>
                >>
                >
                >

                --
                //Christian

                Christian Marcus Cepel | And the wrens have returned &
                christian@... icq:12384980 | are nesting; In the hollow of
                371 Crown Point, Columbia, MO | that oak where his heart once
                65203-2202 573.999.2370 | had been; And he lifts up his
                Computer Support Specialist, Sr. | arms in a blessing; For being
                University of Missouri - Columbia | born again. --Rich Mullins
              • Christian M. Cepel
                I m confused again. To my knowledge, a hornpipe is 2/4 or 4/4 with each 8th note in the quarter quantized at approximately 150% and 50%, when played, or more
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 3, 2005
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                  I'm confused again. To my knowledge, a hornpipe is 2/4 or 4/4 with each
                  8th note in the quarter quantized at approximately 150% and 50%, when
                  played, or more like 3/16 + 1/16, and
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornpipe and all my experience with Irish
                  music & abc notation back this up. (actually there's a bit on the wiki
                  that I didn't know, the 3/2 bit)


                  So... how can Purcell's or HITW be in 3/4 or 6/8


                  Christian M. Cepel wrote:
                  > That would be a treat! Thank you.
                  >
                  > Stewart, Sara wrote:
                  >
                  >>Purcell's hornpipe is the same tune and was written in the 1690s.
                  >>I believe I have a copy of Playford 1 if you would like to see it.
                  >>Seonaid
                  >>

                  --
                  //Christian

                  Christian Marcus Cepel | And the wrens have returned &
                  christian@... icq:12384980 | are nesting; In the hollow of
                  371 Crown Point, Columbia, MO | that oak where his heart once
                  65203-2202 573.999.2370 | had been; And he lifts up his
                  Computer Support Specialist, Sr. | arms in a blessing; For being
                  University of Missouri - Columbia | born again. --Rich Mullins
                • Carol O'Connell
                  HITW fits the second definition on the website you supplied. Baroque and in a 3/2 time. When we play HITW, we count it in 3. (Don¹t get too hung up on the
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 4, 2005
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                    HITW fits the second definition on the website you supplied. Baroque and in
                    a 3/2 time.

                    When we play HITW, we count it in 3. (Don¹t get too hung up on the time
                    signature on SCA music; sometimes arrangers just shoehorn things in as best
                    they can.)

                    Conna

                    On 11/3/05 9:08 PM, "Christian M. Cepel" <christian@...> wrote:

                    > I'm confused again. To my knowledge, a hornpipe is 2/4 or 4/4 with each
                    > 8th note in the quarter quantized at approximately 150% and 50%, when
                    > played, or more like 3/16 + 1/16, and
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornpipe and all my experience with Irish
                    > music & abc notation back this up. (actually there's a bit on the wiki
                    > that I didn't know, the 3/2 bit)
                    >
                    >
                    > So... how can Purcell's or HITW be in 3/4 or 6/8
                    >
                    >
                    > Christian M. Cepel wrote:
                    >> > That would be a treat! Thank you.
                    >> >
                    >> > Stewart, Sara wrote:
                    >> >
                    >>> >>Purcell's hornpipe is the same tune and was written in the 1690s.
                    >>> >>I believe I have a copy of Playford 1 if you would like to see it.
                    >>> >>Seonaid
                    >>> >>






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Keith McClune
                    Hi there: Catching up from a few days ago ... ... Because they are not from the same source. As others have pointed out, HitW is from 1698 (9th edition of
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 6, 2005
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                      Hi there:

                      Catching up from a few days ago ...

                      "Christian M. Cepel" wrote:
                      >
                      > ... Why has such
                      > a wonderful (if overly requested) tune such as Hole in the Wall been
                      > ostracized so horribly, when other tunes from the same Playford Dances
                      > and Ballads ~ 1651 are fair game...

                      Because they are not from the same source. As others have pointed out, HitW is
                      from 1698 (9th edition of "The Dancing Master", published, I think, by John
                      Playford's son, Henry), and is in a distinctly different style from the earlier
                      1651-1653 dances you listed.

                      It is partly because dancers can easily become confused, as you did, about what
                      period a dance came from that some people ... discourage ... such dances/tunes.
                      Personally, I find the endless repetition of the HitW tune tedious, as well.

                      BTW, it was called a hornpipe because, well, that's what Purcell called it.

                      There is an excellent on line resource for studying Playford dances at:

                      http://www.izaak.unh.edu/nhltmd/indexes/dancingmaster/

                      This site provides a database with every dance from every edition of Playford
                      (24 volumes containing 1,053 unique dances: with duplicates, 6,217 dances).
                      By comparing different editions, it is obvious that some dances kept the same
                      name but were utterly changed over the years (both music and steps). There was
                      also a dramatic shift between the 8th and 11th editions. While many first
                      edition dances are found in the 8th, I don't think any dances from 8 made it
                      through to 11 (I could be wrong - I have not looked carefully).

                      This site does have an index by title.

                      Each dance has a facsimile of an original, but only one facsimile per dance
                      (no matter how many editions it was in). I think it's the best quality print
                      they could get, as it is often not the oldest. There is a coded reference to
                      the figures (permitting an easy search for similar figures between dances).
                      Any differences between editions are given in notes, so you have to check the
                      notes to see if there was any variations between one edition and another (links
                      for all editions of a dance go to the same page, unless they are significantly
                      different).

                      > I also don't understand why Scotland the Brave, a slightly campy tune
                      > from 1891-5 is still hugged close while Hole in the Wall is beaten off
                      > with a stick and the dogs are set on it.

                      This must be a regional phenomenon, as I have found Scotland the Brave more
                      likely to be frowned upon (if any distinction is made at all). Hopefully,
                      you don't have to put up with waltzes, as I do.

                      Keith / Guillaume S:}>
                      Caerthe, Outlands
                    • Christian M. Cepel
                      Ack. This whole discussion was a mistake on my part. Sorry. First of all, the website should have been http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/Hendricks/ instead of
                      Message 10 of 11 , Nov 7, 2005
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                        Ack. This whole discussion was a mistake on my part. Sorry.

                        First of all, the website should have been
                        http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/Hendricks/ instead of
                        http://sca.waterloo.ca/Hendricks/ (note the 'u' in uwaterloo).

                        And either a) it's been fixed since I first sent out this note, or b) I
                        misread it and started the discussion on HITW based on my own mistake.

                        Either way, it does indeed say Playford 2, 1698 on that site now.

                        *embarrassed look*

                        My apologies.

                        Still, it does seem a treasure trove.

                        Thanks to all.

                        Stewart, Sara wrote:
                        > Purcell's hornpipe is the same tune and was written in the 1690s.
                        > I believe I have a copy of Playford 1 if you would like to see it.
                        > Seonaid
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
                        > [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christian M. Cepel
                        > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:47 PM
                        > To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.
                        >
                        >
                        > So does this guy have it wrong? His site says Hole in the Wall -
                        > Playford 1 - 1651?
                        >
                        > Could he be instead referring to Purcell's "Hornpipe" which the music
                        > from Lilies XIV Ball states it's a 6/8 variant of? This guy's is in
                        > 3/4, but looks very similar from a quick glance.
                        >
                        > On the top of that same Lilies Ball page it does say Playford(1698).
                        > How should I resolve the discrepancy?
                        >
                        > Thanks.
                        >
                        > I guess that I just hate that one of the few songs I know how to play
                        > and play well, and enjoy playing and ornamenting is out on its
                        > collective ear, with a bootprint on to boot.
                        >
                        > //Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
                        >
                        > Stewart, Sara wrote:
                        >
                        >>I am sorry I meant the music for Hole in the Wall was composed in
                        >
                        > 1695.
                        >
                        >>Good questions though
                        >>Seonaid
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>-----Original Message-----
                        >>From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
                        >>[mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Sara
                        >>Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:34 PM
                        >>To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
                        >>Subject: RE: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.
                        >>
                        >>Hey
                        >>The dance for Hole in the Wall is from 1698 which I believe is
                        >>Playford 3. We tend to try and do dances from Playford 1 (1651) The
                        >>music was composed in 1695.
                        >>Sellinger's Round by the way is from Playford 2. I do not know about
                        >>trenchmore, but all the other's you listed are Playford 1, I think.
                        >>I would not agree that Scotland the Brave is still hugged close.
                        >>
                        >>Seonaid
                        >>
                        >>-----Original Message-----
                        >>From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
                        >>[mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christian M. Cepel
                        >>Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:30 PM
                        >>To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
                        >>Subject: [CalontirDance] Website with lots of well engraved music.
                        >>
                        >>I expect folks already know of this, but if not, it seems a treasure
                        >>trove to me. Looks to be notated in Finale to me.
                        >>
                        >>http://sca.waterloo.ca/Hendricks/
                        >>
                        >>This leads me to a question I've been having for a while. Why has
                        >>such a wonderful (if overly requested) tune such as Hole in the Wall
                        >>been ostracized so horribly, when other tunes from the same Playford
                        >>Dances and Ballads ~ 1651 are fair game... I.e., Heart's Ease, Black
                        >>nag, Jenny Pluck Pears, Nonesuch, Parson's Farewell (I think),
                        >>Gathering Peascods (I think), Rufty Tufty, Sellenger's Round,
                        >>Trenchmore to name all the ones I recognize from that list.
                        >>
                        >>Is it because there are earlier sources for all these works other than
                        >
                        >
                        >>Hole in the Wall, than the 1651 Playford?
                        >>
                        >>I don't understand.
                        >>
                        >>I also don't understand why Scotland the Brave, a slightly campy tune
                        >>from 1891-5 is still hugged close while Hole in the Wall is beaten off
                        >
                        >
                        >>with a stick and the dogs are set on it.
                        >>
                        >>Thanks for any elucidation!
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >

                        --
                        //Christian

                        Christian Marcus Cepel | And the wrens have returned &
                        christian@... icq:12384980 | are nesting; In the hollow of
                        371 Crown Point, Columbia, MO | that oak where his heart once
                        65203-2202 573.999.2370 | had been; And he lifts up his
                        Computer Support Specialist, Sr. | arms in a blessing; For being
                        University of Missouri - Columbia | born again. --Rich Mullins
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