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RE: [CalontirDance] dance reconstruction criteria

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  • Slick, Jeremy J.
    My one question about the complexity issue: If the group that is doing the recreation tries to do any Court dances, many of those are very simplistic in dance
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 21, 2003
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      My one question about the complexity issue: If the group that is doing the recreation tries to do any Court dances, many of those are very simplistic in dance steps and allow little to no variation from the original. Are they any ways to judge against the authenticity to determine if the complexity factor should be taken into account?
       
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Sauer, Michael F. [mailto:sauerm@...]
      Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 12:26 PM
      To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [CalontirDance] dance reconstruction criteria

      Hi all

      I'm trying to put together some judging criteria for
      dance reconstruction - for this weekend - still haven't
      head if they will be used. This is my first pass and
      I would welcome any and all feedback. I really want some
      different opinions to talk about. These have never been used
      and are set in mud, squishy mud at that.

      Sorry for the latge HTML post but thats the easiest format to work with.
      If anyone wants a copy in word, pdf or html mailed directly to them, please email me.

      thanks

      Conrad

       

      DANCE RECONSTRUCTION, EUROPEAN
      (New 7/2003)

      Reconstruction of a dance from a period text. Dance should be performed, but the performance itself will not be judged, limit of 10 minutes for the performance.
      Note: For Renaissance Dance texts up to 1651 should be considered period.




      DANCE RECONSTRUCTION, EUROPEAN - NOVICE

      DOCUMENTATION (0-4 points)

      • 0: None
      • 1: 3x5 card with name of source and dance
      • 2: 3x5 card with 1 plus any one of; country of origin, time of origin, characteristics of style for that period
      • 3: 3x5 card with 1 plus any two of; country of origin, time of origin, characteristics of style for that period
      • 4: 3x5 card with 1 plus any three of; country of origin, time of origin, characteristics of style for that period

      AUTHENTICITY (0-4 points)

      • 0: Source not period or credible rendering of period source (for dance references up to 1651 should be considered period)
      • 1: All basic steps fit accepted definitions or properly explained.
      • 2: All complex steps fit accepted definitions or properly explained.
      • 3: All patterns fit accepted definitions or properly explained.
      • 4: Overall period feel in steps, patterns and movement; fits the music.

      COMPLEXITY (1-5 points) - Rank the ambition of the entry, NOT the workmanship, on a scale of 1 to 5 based on the following:

      • Only standard steps included, simple repetitive pattern
      • Variety of steps used, including some nonstandard and/or multiple patterns
      • Variety of steps and patters of significant difficulty (e.g. simultaneous movement if not in simple arrangement)
      • Uses of different tempo, direction changes and formations.
      • Scope of endeavor (length, number of different steps, individual complexity, language, obscurity of source)

      WORKMANSHIP (1-6 points) - Rank the success of the attempt on a scale of 1 to 6 based on the following.

      • Steps work in isolation, no major inconsistencies.
      • Steps work well together, basic patters flow into one another.
      • Whole patterns flow properly with each other and with the music.
      • Any gaps filled in/alterations made in reasonable fashion, justifiable for style of dance.
      • Dance works as a whole together, flows with music.
      • Verbal description of steps clear and understandable

      CREATIVITY (1-6 points)

      • All steps out of standard step dictionary, no significant patters
      • All steps out of standard step dictionary, simple patters
      • Non basic step/pattern reconstructed as described
      • Needed to fill in gaps, made alteration to make something work
      • New interpretation of step or pattern successfully presented

      QUALITY (1-6 points)

      Evaluate the work as a whole. NOTE: This category is subjective; however, the judge should take into account prior category scores, aesthetic appeal, presentation, intuitive response, and other such items not previously addressed.




      DANCE RECONSTRUCTION, EUROPEAN - INTERMEDIATE

      DOCUMENTATION (0-4 points)

      • 0: None or completely inaccurate
      • 1: A copy of the dance to be reconstructed; annotated for source
      • 2: Additional information( e.g. country and period of origin, characteristics of style for that period)
      • 3: Written music for the dance
      • 4: Discussion of the nature of setting/purpose of the dance (social, performance, appropriate garb and style etc.)

      AUTHENTICITY (0-4 points)

      • 0: Dance choreography not period, doesn't conform to accepted standards or deviations successfully described
      • 1: Most/All steps and patterns fit accepted definitions or properly explained
      • 2: Dance only somewhat/minimally altered to make it work
      • 3: All elements of the dance internally consistent.
      • 4: Overall very period feel in steps, patterns and movement; fits the music well.

      COMPLEXITY (1-5 points) - Rank the ambition of the entry, NOT the workmanship, on a scale of 1 to 5 based on the following:

      • Wide variety of steps used, including some nonstandard or complex ones and/or several simple or at least one complex pattern
      • Wide variety of steps and patters of significant difficulty (e.g. simultaneous movement if not in simple arrangement)
      • Uses of different tempo, direction changes and formations.
      • Scope of endeavor (length, number of different steps, individual complexity, language, obscurity of source)
      • Reconstruction required simple translation or moderate interpretation, little description available.

      WORKMANSHIP (1-6 points) - Rank the success of the attempt on a scale of 1 to 6 based on the following.

      • Steps work well in isolation and together
      • Patterns flow well and fit music
      • Choreography is appropriate for the time/place/style of the dance
      • Any gaps filled in/alterations made in logical fashion, fit well for style of dance.
      • Dance works well as a whole together, flows with music.
      • Written description clear and understandable

      CREATIVITY (1-5 points)

      • All steps out of standard step dictionary, simple patters
      • Non basic step/pattern reconstructed as described
      • Needed to fill in large gaps, make significant alteration to make something work, results fit well with style
      • Significant decisions about major element needed (I.e. facing, formation etc.)
      • New interpolation of significant step or pattern successfully presented

      QUALITY (1-6 points)

      Evaluate the work as a whole. NOTE: This category is subjective; however, the judge should take into account prior category scores, aesthetic appeal, presentation, intuitive response, and other such items not previously addressed.




      DANCE RECONSTRUCTION, EUROPEAN - ADVANCED

      DOCUMENTATION (0-4 points)

      • 0: None or inaccurate
      • 1: A copy of the dance to be reconstructed; annotated for source, music, additional supporting documents (step dictionary, basic lexicon if in a foreign language)
      • 2: A list and description of steps/patterns reconstructed, including justification for interpretation
      • 3: Discussion of any non standard/difficult reconstruction
      • 4: Comparison to other dances of the style/place/time

      AUTHENTICITY (0-4 points)

      • 0: Any significant element not period, doesn't conform to accepted standards or deviations successfully described
      • 1: All steps and patterns fit accepted definitions or properly explained
      • 2: Dance only minimally altered/not altered to make it work
      • 3: Steps/patterns agree with similar ones from other dances.
      • 4: Overall very period feel in steps, patterns and movement, fits the music perfectly, minimum or no alterations

      COMPLEXITY (1-5 points) - Rank the ambition of the entry, NOT the workmanship, on a scale of 1 to 5 based on the following:

      • Wide variety of steps and patters of significant difficulty (e.g. simultaneous movement if not in simple arrangement)
      • Uses of different tempo, direction changes and formations.
      • Scope of endeavor (length, number of different steps, individual complexity, language, obscurity of source)
      • Reconstruction required complex translation or significant interpretation, little description or just a short annotation available.
      • Entire style of dance needed to be interpreted

      WORKMANSHIP (1-6 points) - Rank the success of the attempt on a scale of 1 to 6 based on the following.

      • All steps and patterns work well together and flow to the music
      • Styling is appropriate for time/place/style (e.g. period concepts of symmetry)
      • Choreography allow the proper mood of the dance to be achieved.
      • Any gaps filled in/alterations made in proper fashion, indistinguishable from style of dance.
      • Dance very works well as a whole together, flows with music.
      • Written description clear and understandable; sufficient to learn the dance.

      CREATIVITY (1-5 points)

      • All basic steps as described, non basic step/pattern reconstructed as described
      • Needed to fill in large gaps, make significant alteration to make something work, results not noticeably different from rest of dance
      • Significant decisions about fundamental element needed (I.e. tempo, repetition etc.)
      • New interpretation of significant step or pattern successfully presented
      • New interpretation of fundamental step or pattern successfully presented

      QUALITY (1-6 points)

      Evaluate the work as a whole. NOTE: This category is subjective; however, the judge should take into account prior category scores, aesthetic appeal, presentation, intuitive response, and other such items not previously addressed.


       

       
       





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    • Carol O'Connell
      Nice job! I ll let dancers comment on the particulars. To a nondancer, it seems very thorough. Speaking of this weekend, I heard from Christian (from
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 21, 2003
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        Re: [CalontirDance] dance reconstruction criteria Nice job! I'll let dancers comment on the particulars. To a nondancer, it seems very thorough.

        Speaking of this weekend, I heard from Christian (from Northshield). He has proposed a ball to be held after court on Saturday at Kingdom A&S. He's thinking of about an hour's worth of dancing. He's been in touch with the event steward and is awaiting her permission. I just wanted to bring it to people's attention to be on the lookout for it.

        I hope it happens!
        Conna

        From: "Sauer, Michael F." <sauerm@...>
        Reply-To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 12:25:45 -0500
        To: <CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: [CalontirDance] dance reconstruction criteria



        Hi all

        I'm trying to put together some judging criteria for
        dance reconstruction - for this weekend - still haven't
        head if they will be used. This is my first pass and
        I would welcome any and all feedback. I really want some
        different opinions to talk about. These have never been used
        and are set in mud, squishy mud at that.

        Sorry for the latge HTML post but thats the easiest format to work with.
        If anyone wants a copy in word, pdf or html mailed directly to them, please email me.

        thanks

        Conrad

        DANCE RECONSTRUCTION, EUROPEAN
        (New 7/2003)

        Reconstruction of a dance from a period text. Dance should be performed, but the performance itself will not be judged, limit of 10 minutes for the performance.
        Note: For Renaissance Dance texts up to 1651 should be considered period.



        Novice <file:///E:/mikes/Dance/danceRecon.html#nov>  Intermediate <file:///E:/mikes/Dance/danceRecon.html#int>  Advanced <file:///E:/mikes/Dance/danceRecon.html#adv>  
        Return To Index <http://www.artsci.calontir-rush.org/criteria.php>



        Top Of Page <file:///E:/mikes/Dance/danceRecon.html#top>

        DANCE RECONSTRUCTION, EUROPEAN - NOVICE

        DOCUMENTATION (0-4 points)

        • 0: None
        • 1: 3x5 card with name of source and dance
        • 2: 3x5 card with 1 plus any one of; country of origin, time of origin, characteristics of style for that period
        • 3: 3x5 card with 1 plus any two of; country of origin, time of origin, characteristics of style for that period
        • 4: 3x5 card with 1 plus any three of; country of origin, time of origin, characteristics of style for that period
        AUTHENTICITY (0-4 points)
        • 0: Source not period or credible rendering of period source (for dance references up to 1651 should be considered period)
        • 1: All basic steps fit accepted definitions or properly explained.
        • 2: All complex steps fit accepted definitions or properly explained.
        • 3: All patterns fit accepted definitions or properly explained.
        • 4: Overall period feel in steps, patterns and movement; fits the music.

        COMPLEXITY (1-5 points) - Rank the ambition of the entry, NOT the workmanship, on a scale of 1 to 5 based on the following:
        • Only standard steps included, simple repetitive pattern
        • Variety of steps used, including some nonstandard and/or multiple patterns
        • Variety of steps and patters of significant difficulty (e.g. simultaneous movement if not in simple arrangement)
        • Uses of different tempo, direction changes and formations.
        • Scope of endeavor (length, number of different steps, individual complexity, language, obscurity of source)

        WORKMANSHIP (1-6 points) - Rank the success of the attempt on a scale of 1 to 6 based on the following.
        • Steps work in isolation, no major inconsistencies.
        • Steps work well together, basic patters flow into one another.
        • Whole patterns flow properly with each other and with the music.
        • Any gaps filled in/alterations made in reasonable fashion, justifiable for style of dance.
        • Dance works as a whole together, flows with music.
        • Verbal description of steps clear and understandable

        CREATIVITY (1-6 points)
        • All steps out of standard step dictionary, no significant patters
        • All steps out of standard step dictionary, simple patters
        • Non basic step/pattern reconstructed as described
        • Needed to fill in gaps, made alteration to make something work
        • New interpretation of step or pattern successfully presented

        QUALITY (1-6 points)
        Evaluate the work as a whole. NOTE: This category is subjective; however, the judge should take into account prior category scores, aesthetic appeal, presentation, intuitive response, and other such items not previously addressed.


        Novice <file:///E:/mikes/Dance/danceRecon.html#nov>  Intermediate <file:///E:/mikes/Dance/danceRecon.html#int>  Advanced <file:///E:/mikes/Dance/danceRecon.html#adv>  

        Return To Index <http://www.artsci.calontir-rush.org/criteria.php>


        Top Of Page <file:///E:/mikes/Dance/danceRecon.html#top>

        DANCE RECONSTRUCTION, EUROPEAN - INTERMEDIATE

        DOCUMENTATION (0-4 points)

        • 0: None or completely inaccurate
        • 1: A copy of the dance to be reconstructed; annotated for source
        • 2: Additional information( e.g. country and period of origin, characteristics of style for that period)
        • 3: Written music for the dance
        • 4: Discussion of the nature of setting/purpose of the dance (social, performance, appropriate garb and style etc.)

        AUTHENTICITY (0-4 points)
        • 0: Dance choreography not period, doesn't conform to accepted standards or deviations successfully described
        • 1: Most/All steps and patterns fit accepted definitions or properly explained
        • 2: Dance only somewhat/minimally altered to make it work
        • 3: All elements of the dance internally consistent.
        • 4: Overall very period feel in steps, patterns and movement; fits the music well.

        COMPLEXITY (1-5 points) - Rank the ambition of the entry, NOT the workmanship, on a scale of 1 to 5 based on the following:
        • Wide variety of steps used, including some nonstandard or complex ones and/or several simple or at least one complex pattern
        • Wide variety of steps and patters of significant difficulty (e.g. simultaneous movement if not in simple arrangement)
        • Uses of different tempo, direction changes and formations.
        • Scope of endeavor (length, number of different steps, individual complexity, language, obscurity of source)
        • Reconstruction required simple translation or moderate interpretation, little description available.

        WORKMANSHIP (1-6 points) - Rank the success of the attempt on a scale of 1 to 6 based on the following.
        • Steps work well in isolation and together
        • Patterns flow well and fit music
        • Choreography is appropriate for the time/place/style of the dance
        • Any gaps filled in/alterations made in logical fashion, fit well for style of dance.
        • Dance works well as a whole together, flows with music.
        • Written description clear and understandable

        CREATIVITY (1-5 points)
        • All steps out of standard step dictionary, simple patters
        • Non basic step/pattern reconstructed as described
        • Needed to fill in large gaps, make significant alteration to make something work, results fit well with style
        • Significant decisions about major element needed (I.e. facing, formation etc.)
        • New interpolation of significant step or pattern successfully presented

        QUALITY (1-6 points)
        Evaluate the work as a whole. NOTE: This category is subjective; however, the judge should take into account prior category scores, aesthetic appeal, presentation, intuitive response, and other such items not previously addressed.


        Novice <file:///E:/mikes/Dance/danceRecon.html#nov>  Intermediate <file:///E:/mikes/Dance/danceRecon.html#int>  Advanced <file:///E:/mikes/Dance/danceRecon.html#adv>  

        Return To Index <http://www.artsci.calontir-rush.org/criteria.php>


        Top Of Page <file:///E:/mikes/Dance/danceRecon.html#top>

        DANCE RECONSTRUCTION, EUROPEAN - ADVANCED

        DOCUMENTATION (0-4 points)

        • 0: None or inaccurate
        • 1: A copy of the dance to be reconstructed; annotated for source, music, additional supporting documents (step dictionary, basic lexicon if in a foreign language)
        • 2: A list and description of steps/patterns reconstructed, including justification for interpretation
        • 3: Discussion of any non standard/difficult reconstruction
        • 4: Comparison to other dances of the style/place/time

        AUTHENTICITY (0-4 points)
        • 0: Any significant element not period, doesn't conform to accepted standards or deviations successfully described
        • 1: All steps and patterns fit accepted definitions or properly explained
        • 2: Dance only minimally altered/not altered to make it work
        • 3: Steps/patterns agree with similar ones from other dances.
        • 4: Overall very period feel in steps, patterns and movement, fits the music perfectly, minimum or no alterations

        COMPLEXITY (1-5 points) - Rank the ambition of the entry, NOT the workmanship, on a scale of 1 to 5 based on the following:
        • Wide variety of steps and patters of significant difficulty (e.g. simultaneous movement if not in simple arrangement)
        • Uses of different tempo, direction changes and formations.
        • Scope of endeavor (length, number of different steps, individual complexity, language, obscurity of source)
        • Reconstruction required complex translation or significant interpretation, little description or just a short annotation available.
        • Entire style of dance needed to be interpreted

        WORKMANSHIP (1-6 points) - Rank the success of the attempt on a scale of 1 to 6 based on the following.
        • All steps and patterns work well together and flow to the music
        • Styling is appropriate for time/place/style (e.g. period concepts of symmetry)
        • Choreography allow the proper mood of the dance to be achieved.
        • Any gaps filled in/alterations made in proper fashion, indistinguishable from style of dance.
        • Dance very works well as a whole together, flows with music.
        • Written description clear and understandable; sufficient to learn the dance.

        CREATIVITY (1-5 points)
        • All basic steps as described, non basic step/pattern reconstructed as described
        • Needed to fill in large gaps, make significant alteration to make something work, results not noticeably different from rest of dance
        • Significant decisions about fundamental element needed (I.e. tempo, repetition etc.)
        • New interpretation of significant step or pattern successfully presented
        • New interpretation of fundamental step or pattern successfully presented

        QUALITY (1-6 points)
        Evaluate the work as a whole. NOTE: This category is subjective; however, the judge should take into account prior category scores, aesthetic appeal, presentation, intuitive response, and other such items not previously addressed.

        Return To Index <http://www.artsci.calontir-rush.org/criteria.php>



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      • Sauer, Michael F.
        ... OK this is a question that has been brought up in some of the private feedback I have gotten. The generic criteria for complexit is - Rank the ambition of
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 21, 2003
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          >My one question about the complexity issue: If the group that is doing the recreation tries to do any Court dances, many of >those are very simplistic in dance steps and allow little to no variation from the original.


          OK this is a question that has been brought up in some of the private feedback I have gotten.

          The generic criteria for complexit is "- Rank the ambition of the entry, NOT the workmanship"

          Can/should this be judged according the the generic complex dance of that type or
          is there an "absolute" scale over all dance in period?

          Should a reconstruction of the most complex bransle be equal to the most complex English Country Dance?
          If yes will that allow people to score well using potentially easier dances?
          If no would that hurt people who mostly study one era/local because the like it, gasp, its their persona's?

          Something has been done in this regard with costuming where theres an early, middle and late period category.
          Therefore a properly made norese dress can compete with a tudor dress.

          So please discus this point :)


          >Are they any ways to judge against the authenticity to determine if the complexity factor should be taken into account?

          I'm not sure how this would effect/be effected by Authenticity. In reconstruction you don't want to "make up"
          anything unless you have to. Some sources for all eras/places have omissions or seemingly contradictory
          instructions - working around those successfully can lead to increased complexity, but you should never loose
          points (or fail to gain them) if you don't need to alter anything.

          Conrad
        • Slick, Jeremy J.
          My apologies, I should have clarified a wee bit here. In some areas (ie: calligraphy), some artisans and regions may have started with a fairly basic dance
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 21, 2003
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            My apologies, I should have clarified a wee bit here. In some areas (ie: calligraphy), some artisans and regions may have started with a fairly basic dance format...but then allowed ostentation and flourishes to 'enhance' the dance and make the dance more complex (ie: the waltz and tango each have a very straight-foward basic presentation, but can be enhanced with variations). But there are also some English Court Dances out there that only have one set of dance moves, and the period for those dances didn't allow for ostentation.
             
            I think that would be the principle of the authenticity coming into play and affecting the complexity of the dance. So I'm thinking the thought process might be something like this for judging::
             
            1) Is the dance authentic to the period?
            2) Is the stylization of the dance appropriate to the period (ie: was ostentaion/flare/variation in the steps allowed?)
            3) OPTIONAL: If ostentation was presented, how complex of variations were used and were they period appropriate?
             
            This would then allow for the stately Court Dances of a rigid nature to compete well against a more flamboyant tango.
             
            Does that make sense. or am I just rambling again?
            Grazi,
            Giudo
             
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Sauer, Michael F. 
             >Are they any ways to judge against the authenticity to determine if the complexity factor should be taken into account?

            I'm not sure how this would effect/be effected by Authenticity. In reconstruction you don't want to "make up"
            anything unless you have to. Some sources for all eras/places have omissions or seemingly contradictory
            instructions - working around those successfully can lead to increased complexity, but you should never loose
            points (or fail to gain them) if you don't need to alter anything.

             



            NOTICE: This electronic mail transmission may contain confidential information and is intended only for the person(s) named. Any use, copying or disclosure by any other person is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the sender via e-mail.




          • Amy and Bill Morris
            Three thoughts on simplistic court dances... 1) It can be argued persuasively that one reason our records of many court dances are simplistic are that they
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 21, 2003
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              Three thoughts on simplistic court dances...

              1) It can be argued persuasively that one reason our records of many court
              dances are simplistic are that they are a base form upon which improvisation
              may be done. Glancing at Arbeau quickly I got improvisation recommended for
              pavane, galliard, lavolta, alman, double branle. And that is without a
              close reading. Doubtless the same is true for some other dances if not for
              all.

              N.B. Yes, this does mean that too close following of the written sources can
              result in a less authentic dance, for certain dances.

              The dance reconstructer thus should also be able to include allowable
              variations, at what points in the music which variations can be done, and in
              couple dances how one partner would signal the other partner that a
              particular variation. For example Arbeau's description of how to lead in
              Lavolta begs for clarification.

              2) Yes some dances are more complex then others, and therefore have
              potentially higher scores in the complexity category then others. (As
              Conrad notes this is not a problem limited to dance, some competitions have
              even removed complexity from the criteria, or kept it but not added it in to
              the overall score) Remember that you can include complementary material
              when it is relevant, not just where and when was the dance done, but indoors
              or outdoors?, which seasons? by which classes? by which age groups?
              wearing what? On a wood floor?, tile? grass? what musical instruments were
              available and how skilled were the dance musicians? All of these questions
              can affect the style of the dance. The hornpipe is was popular with sailors
              partly because it could be done without a partner in a crowded space (such
              as a quarter-deck). The intricate styling in 19th century Serbian women's
              dances is closely connected with the rather restrictive women's skirts.
              Oriental cultures that used to bind women's feet strongly reflect that in
              their dances. Dances done by the populace sometimes include opportunities
              to flirt, dances done for an audience by the dance professionals (whether
              Byzantine, Japanese, or late period French) may include mimed courtship but
              tend to lack real opportunities for the participants to flirt.

              I am currently learning Buffens (the sword dance) from Arbeau. The height
              of the ceiling can interfere with some of the styling. Even without further
              proof, this would suggest that it was unlikely to be done in lower class
              dwellings, which tend to have low roofs.

              3) In many cases the more simple dances were rarely done alone. The double
              bransle would be done as the start of a bransle suite, The pavane would be
              followed by a galliard. Don't stop after doing part, do the whole thing
              like it would be done in period.

              Breichiol map Lludd o Fannauc
              (known among the saesneg as Mableth)
              morris@...


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Sauer, Michael F." <sauerm@...>
              To: <CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 1:02 PM
              Subject: RE: [CalontirDance] dance reconstruction criteria


              > >My one question about the complexity issue: If the group that is doing
              the recreation tries to do any Court dances, many of >those are very
              simplistic in dance steps and allow little to no variation from the
              original.
              >
              >
              > OK this is a question that has been brought up in some of the private
              feedback I have gotten.
              >
              > The generic criteria for complexit is "- Rank the ambition of the entry,
              NOT the workmanship"
              >
              > Can/should this be judged according the the generic complex dance of that
              type or
              > is there an "absolute" scale over all dance in period?
              >
              > Should a reconstruction of the most complex bransle be equal to the most
              complex English Country Dance?
              > If yes will that allow people to score well using potentially easier
              dances?
              > If no would that hurt people who mostly study one era/local because the
              like it, gasp, its their persona's?
              >
              > Something has been done in this regard with costuming where theres an
              early, middle and late period category.
              > Therefore a properly made norese dress can compete with a tudor dress.
              >
              > So please discus this point :)
              >
              >
              > >Are they any ways to judge against the authenticity to determine if the
              complexity factor should be taken into account?
              >
              > I'm not sure how this would effect/be effected by Authenticity. In
              reconstruction you don't want to "make up"
              > anything unless you have to. Some sources for all eras/places have
              omissions or seemingly contradictory
              > instructions - working around those successfully can lead to increased
              complexity, but you should never loose
              > points (or fail to gain them) if you don't need to alter anything.
              >
              > Conrad
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > calontirdance-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
            • Keith McClune
              Hi there: ... I think this is a simplistic representation of Court dance. Most of the 16th c. manuals, at least, deal with improvisation, which is a great way
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 21, 2003
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                Hi there:

                "Slick, Jeremy J." wrote:

                >My one question about the complexity issue: If the group that is doing the
                > recreation tries to do any Court dances, many of those are very simplistic in
                > dance steps and allow little to no variation from the original.

                I think this is a simplistic representation of Court dance. Most of the 16th c.
                manuals, at least, deal with improvisation, which is a great way to add
                complexity. I think all of the manuals talk about how dances must be done in
                context (modified based on space, instruments, your partner's abilities, etc.).
                So there are many ways a reconstructor can add complexity (besides doing their
                own translations, step interpretations, correlations with other sources, etc.).

                After doing Rostiboli Gioioso once at a feast, a visitor from another kingdom
                confided that she had intended to "kidnap" into the dance, but when she saw the
                "connection" between me and my lady, she couldn't bear to break us apart. Since
                we WERE being formal and staid, I consider this a great compliment on our
                ability to use subtle gestures. I have known many "accomplished" dancers that
                are oblivious to this aspect of dance.
                >
                "Sauer, Michael F." wrote:

                > Should a reconstruction of the most complex bransle be equal to the most
                > complex English Country Dance?

                It depends on the complexity of the project, not just the dance. Did the branle
                involve translating from french? Does the ECD have a complex pattern that can
                read strait out of Playford?

                Complexity is (to me) largely a measure of how much work was involved in
                understanding, interpreting, and presenting the material (including, in the case
                of dance, remembering long sequences). If this was not difficult (you read one
                transcription of Quadran Pavan and performed it using steps learned at a
                practice), then complexity must be low - if you want a higher score, then pick a
                different dance, or do more work.

                In the case a Quadran Pavan, there are more than half a dozen manuscripts that
                describe the dance. One may transcribe these, compare them, discuss the context
                of the manuscripts and the dance environment, and contrast other contemporary
                dances. Perhaps there is a progression between the manuscripts that shows how
                the dance changed over one hundred years. This research and analysis will make
                any reconstruction more complex (and complete).

                By comparison, a 15th c. italian dance from Ebreo may or may not be very
                complex. Simply reading Sparti's translation of one dance and performing it
                (again) using steps you learned at practice, is not very complex. Even though
                all of Ebreo's dances are, themselves, more complex than Quadran Pavan. On the
                other hand, doing your own transcription and translation from an italian
                facsimile is automatically fairly complex, and if you perform the same
                comparisons with other dances, manuscripts, etc., this project would be even
                more complex than any English dance reconstruction could ever be.

                For most 16th. c. dances you can create your own "solo" section, using a mix of
                galliard steps, cut steps, etc.

                The recognition and interpretation of obscure, confusing, and/or incomplete
                instructions is also vital.

                As a competition judge (in the Outlands), I have found documentation the key:
                if one entry looks impressive but doesn't tell me what was involved in its
                research and preparation, then it cannot receive full marks for authenticity,
                creativity, or complexity. At the same time, a well documented entry tells me
                see not only what the person knows, but also helps me understand the importance
                of elements that I might have missed. Whenever possible, I ask questions -
                sometimes because I am curious, but usually to give the entrant a chance to show
                how this entry is special.

                Until I started judging, I never had a full appreciation of just how valuable
                documentation is - not to prove you can write a term paper or dissertation, but
                to explain what you did, how you did it, what choices were made, and why, etc.

                Keith / Guillaume S:}>
                Denver / Outlands

                A brief example: "This dance comes from Arbeau's Orchesography, published in
                France in 1589. I used the English translation by Mary Stuart Evans; it is the
                only period dance book in our library./P Branles were one popular style of
                dance at upper class parties. Some others were the sedate almans and energetic
                galliards./P While the basic pattern of this branle is not incredibly complex,
                I have ornamented it with the cut steps that Arbeau recommends. Note that the
                'doubles' are done with different galliard-like steps on each repeat. Such
                improvisational displays by better dancers were considered stylish./P The
                recording that I use is by the prestigious New York Renaissance Band, and was
                intended to be danced to."
              • Carol O'Connell
                In music performance, it s easier to score more points with a more complex piece. But you can receive extra points on a simple piece if it s ornamented in a
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 22, 2003
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                  In music performance, it's easier to score more points with a more complex
                  piece. But you can receive extra points on a simple piece if it's ornamented
                  in a period style.

                  Conna

                  Conrad wrote:

                  >
                  > Should a reconstruction of the most complex bransle be equal to the most
                  > complex English Country Dance?
                  > If yes will that allow people to score well using potentially easier dances?
                  > If no would that hurt people who mostly study one era/local because the like
                  > it, gasp, its their persona's?
                  >
                  > Something has been done in this regard with costuming where theres an early,
                  > middle and late period category.
                  > Therefore a properly made norese dress can compete with a tudor dress.
                  >
                  > So please discus this point :)
                  >
                • Sauer, Michael F.
                  ... I think the key word here is performance vs. reconstruction. I think dance reconstruction is more similar to music transcription. How would embellishments
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jul 22, 2003
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                    >In music performance, it's easier to score more points with a more complex
                    >piece. But you can receive extra points on a simple piece if it's ornamented
                    >in a period style.

                    >Conna

                    I think the key word here is performance vs. reconstruction.
                    I think dance reconstruction is more similar to music transcription.

                    How would embellishments be handled when transcribing music?

                    In dance performance adding appropriate ornamentation would
                    definitely increase the complexity of something.

                    I'm not sure if we want to go there for reconstruction. IMO the definition
                    of ornamentation is "something extra to do that the dance master doesn't
                    bother to write down when and where to do it" - so adding ornamentations
                    while fine for the performance (which isn't judged directly for a reconstruction)
                    would not necessarily make the reconstruction harder.

                    In many ways the performance is just so people can see how things work, the actual result
                    is how to do a dance not the dance itself.

                    Conrad



                    Conrad wrote:

                    >
                    > Should a reconstruction of the most complex bransle be equal to the most
                    > complex English Country Dance?
                    > If yes will that allow people to score well using potentially easier dances?
                    > If no would that hurt people who mostly study one era/local because the like
                    > it, gasp, its their persona's?
                    >
                    > Something has been done in this regard with costuming where theres an early,
                    > middle and late period category.
                    > Therefore a properly made norese dress can compete with a tudor dress.
                    >
                    > So please discus this point :)
                    >



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                  • Carol O'Connell
                    Yes, you re absolutely right. Embellishments should _not_ be included in a transcription. Doing so would change them from embellishments to required bits, and
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jul 22, 2003
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                      Yes, you're absolutely right. Embellishments should _not_ be included in a
                      transcription. Doing so would change them from embellishments to required
                      bits, and that would be inaccurate.

                      There are examples of music written down in which a later version has the
                      embellishments written in as part of the music. That's the evolution over
                      time of a simple tune that's been embellished a lot. For a music
                      transcription entry, I think it would be reasonable to allow for extra
                      points if the entrant included a section in the documentation describing the
                      types of embellishment that would be appropriate and a second copy of the
                      music showing some of this embellishment.

                      So, for dance reconstruction, extra point if embellishments are discussed in
                      the documentation? Maybe I'm pushing it here. I'd like people to choose a
                      dance style appropriate for their persona and not get docked on points
                      because it's a simpler style.

                      Conna

                      > From: "Sauer, Michael F." <sauerm@...>
                      > Reply-To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 10:20:25 -0500
                      > To: <CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Subject: RE: [CalontirDance] dance reconstruction criteria
                      >
                      >
                      >> In music performance, it's easier to score more points with a more complex
                      >> piece. But you can receive extra points on a simple piece if it's ornamented
                      >> in a period style.
                      >
                      >> Conna
                      >
                      > I think the key word here is performance vs. reconstruction.
                      > I think dance reconstruction is more similar to music transcription.
                      >
                      > How would embellishments be handled when transcribing music?
                      >
                      > In dance performance adding appropriate ornamentation would
                      > definitely increase the complexity of something.
                      >
                      > I'm not sure if we want to go there for reconstruction. IMO the definition
                      > of ornamentation is "something extra to do that the dance master doesn't
                      > bother to write down when and where to do it" - so adding ornamentations
                      > while fine for the performance (which isn't judged directly for a
                      > reconstruction)
                      > would not necessarily make the reconstruction harder.
                      >
                      > In many ways the performance is just so people can see how things work, the
                      > actual result
                      > is how to do a dance not the dance itself.
                      >
                      > Conrad
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Conrad wrote:
                      >
                      >>
                      >> Should a reconstruction of the most complex bransle be equal to the most
                      >> complex English Country Dance?
                      >> If yes will that allow people to score well using potentially easier dances?
                      >> If no would that hurt people who mostly study one era/local because the like
                      >> it, gasp, its their persona's?
                      >>
                      >> Something has been done in this regard with costuming where theres an early,
                      >> middle and late period category.
                      >> Therefore a properly made norese dress can compete with a tudor dress.
                      >>
                      >> So please discus this point :)
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                      > calontirdance-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                      >
                      >
                      >
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