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Re: RE: [CalontirDance] Lilies Classes

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  • Kirsten Garner
    Hi all. :) ... that I wish ... dances that ... being Petit ... I ve got a two-person version of Petit Vriens which I occasionally throw on to confuse our
    Message 1 of 18 , May 5, 2000
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      Hi all. :)

      > I couldn't agree more. It's one of my 'personal crusade' dances
      that I wish
      > would become an SCA standard. It's also one of only two Italian
      dances that
      > my
      > (overwhelmingly open and wonderful) dancers request (the other
      being Petit
      > Riens, although I'm winning them over with Dolce Amoroso Fiamma).

      I've got a two-person version of Petit Vriens which I occasionally
      throw on to confuse our kingdom dance minister. :) But that's beside
      the point. :)

      We're having some good success with Amoroso surprisingly. Master
      Niccolo of Artemisia came down and taught it to some beginners at the
      Kingdom Dance and Rapier Collegium and it's really caught on. I've
      had lots of requests for it lately. And in a kingdom where the
      prevailing dance request is "Anything except Italian" and/or "Can we
      do Hole in the Wall?", that's pretty cheering. :)

      > Does anyone know how this
      > started? Who gave Italian a bad reputation

      I wish I knew. We do have some prominent people out here who are
      against them, but I guess that it may be because it's got a
      vocabulary that stretches beyond single, double, side, arm, set and
      turn. People seem to resist having to learn something "fur'n". (Yes,
      I'm originally from Arkansas :). Plus, out here, there's been a long
      tradition of completely OOP dances done. And those that are "period"
      (quotes because I'm including ECD here), have some very odd
      mutations. It makes things interesting when you come in and try to
      teach what you know only to have people come back at you with "that's
      wrong" or "that's not how we do it here". I just recently had someone
      call into question the handholds that I teach (i.e., low, not high).
      He said "That's how Master xxxx, our premier Laurel, says it should
      be done." I told him "Well, he's wrong" and went on to cite sources
      and show him illuminations to the contrary. But it does make things a
      little frustrating at times between that and the prevailing "Italians
      are incredibly hard, and only dance laurels can do them" attitude. :(

      > Hmmm... I'll keep this in mind, although I generally don't try to
      teach
      > Italian
      > by analogy with ECD or other more familiar stuff.

      Out here, it's almost the only way to fly. :( Well, to get people to
      try it. After a while, I start slipping back into Italian, but most
      people seem to accept it by then.

      > but also trying to fit Italian into molds where it can almost,
      > but not quite, fit, seems counterproductive.

      Out here it's a case of "I don't know what a doppio is, and I don't
      want to know. Oh? A *double*? OH! I can do that!"


      > I'll *definately*
      > keep those hints in mind as one never knows what will help someone
      who is
      > having
      > lots of problems understanding GET a dance.

      This is one of the reasons I go to a lot of beginner classes when I
      travel. I may know all the dances, but you never know when someone
      else might have a way cool way of explaining things. :) And God
      knows, I'm still learning to teach after all these years. ;)

      > Could do Leoncello or Anello, Verceppe, Pellegrina, and Gratioso I
      don't know
      > yet.

      Another thing I thought of - if you've got a group who are willing to
      try new and different things, you might could try Mercantia. Good
      flirting potential and interesting theatrics. :)

      > I'm hopeing to pick
      > up
      > some more at Pennsic directly from Rosina!

      Rosina and I have some sometimes quite varying viewpoints on
      reconstructions and steps! :)

      > *laugh*. Ok, appropriate time to tell my technique for getting
      people to
      > dance
      > SLR. I refer to it constantly as the 'kamikaze bunny hop dance of
      doom'

      OK - now *that* I'm definitely going to have to remember! :)

      > I imagine you've already met my friend
      > who
      > is living in Tucson Dave/Bartello(I think).

      Yep - he came to our Dance Collegium last year before he ever moved
      out here. :) We love him out here!! I'll tell him we chatted. :) Cool!

      Julian
    • Ms. Catherine E. Dean, Esq.
      Greetings again. ... Oooh... feel like shareing? I m curious now (having helped choreograph a six person version of Rufty Tufty when we had too many people
      Message 2 of 18 , May 5, 2000
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        Greetings again.

        >I've got a two-person version of Petit Vriens which I occasionally
        >throw on to confuse our kingdom dance minister. :) But that's beside
        >the point. :)

        Oooh... feel like shareing? I'm curious now (having helped choreograph a six
        person version of Rufty Tufty when we had too many people for the regular
        dance!)

        >
        >We're having some good success with Amoroso surprisingly. Master
        >Niccolo of Artemisia came down and taught it to some beginners at the
        >Kingdom Dance and Rapier Collegium and it's really caught on. I've
        >had lots of requests for it lately. And in a kingdom where the
        >prevailing dance request is "Anything except Italian" and/or "Can we
        >do Hole in the Wall?", that's pretty cheering. :)

        So I hear! It actually gives one a sense of hope! I really think more people
        would enjoy Italian if they would just give it a chance--very flirtatious and
        goodness knows there are enough flirts int he SCA to make things like that
        quite
        popular indeed!


        >> but also trying to fit Italian into molds where it can almost,
        >> but not quite, fit, seems counterproductive.
        >
        >Out here it's a case of "I don't know what a doppio is, and I don't
        >want to know. Oh? A *double*? OH! I can do that!"

        Oh, ok I will sometimes translate terms into English, but more often than not
        rather than translate the step names (which can be pretty silly sounding) I
        just
        clip them off. Spezz and Trab rather than spezzati and trabuchetti come to
        mind
        immediately. Things with silly little names are less intimidating, I guess :)


        >> Could do Leoncello or Anello, Verceppe, Pellegrina, and Gratioso I
        >don't know
        >> yet.
        >
        >Another thing I thought of - if you've got a group who are willing to
        >try new and different things, you might could try Mercantia. Good
        >flirting potential and interesting theatrics. :)

        Ok. HOpefully I can get my crew to try it over the summer when we don't have
        homework and can have two hour dance practices.

        >
        >> I'm hopeing to pick
        >> up
        >> some more at Pennsic directly from Rosina!
        >
        >Rosina and I have some sometimes quite varying viewpoints on
        >reconstructions and steps! :)

        Well you still have to admit she's a very nifty person! Seriously, though,
        I'd
        be interested to know where you differ. I've got a copy of the big blue book
        of
        15th c. dance treatises in my room right now and have just started poking
        through it.

        >
        >> *laugh*. Ok, appropriate time to tell my technique for getting
        >people to
        >> dance
        >> SLR. I refer to it constantly as the 'kamikaze bunny hop dance of
        >doom'
        >
        >OK - now *that* I'm definitely going to have to remember! :)

        Ok, but I'm not sure whether I really want the blame/credit for that if it
        catches on *laugh*.

        >
        >> I imagine you've already met my friend
        >> who
        >> is living in Tucson Dave/Bartello(I think).
        >
        >Yep - he came to our Dance Collegium last year before he ever moved
        >out here. :) We love him out here!! I'll tell him we chatted. :) Cool!

        *laugh* It's a small small society we're living in. I wonder how many steps
        it
        takes before every dance master/mistress in the known world is connected to
        every other one.

        Katherine

        ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
        Cathy Dean Katherine Mercer
        Grinnell College Seneschal, College of NoMountain
        deanc@... Calontir
        http://home.earthlink.net/~lfdean
        Knowledge is Power; Power Corrupts; Study Hard; Be Evil
        ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
      • Kirsten Garner
        Hi! :) ... If you go to amazon.co.uk, they have a re-issue of a CD called A la Ferrarese which has that version on it. It s also got music you can use for
        Message 3 of 18 , May 5, 2000
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          Hi! :)
          >> two-person version of Petit Riens
          > Oooh... feel like shareing? I'm curious now

          If you go to amazon.co.uk, they have a re-issue of a CD called "A la
          Ferrarese" which has that version on it. It's also got music you can
          use for Patience, Cupido and Dampnes. :)

          > So I hear! It actually gives one a sense of hope! I really think
          more people
          > would enjoy Italian if they would just give it a chance--very
          flirtatious and
          > goodness knows there are enough flirts int he SCA to make things
          like that
          > quite
          > popular indeed!

          I've been working on stressing the "flirtation" thing out here.
          Sometimes it seems like people only think they can flirt in Hole in
          the Wall and Mannschaft. Amoroso at least has been going some way
          towards remedying that. I guess they think that on the whole Italians
          are too difficult to think about flirting in. Which, in a way, I can
          understand since I used to be scared of them too. But, I guess it
          just takes time and patience. :)

          > Oh, ok I will sometimes translate terms into English, but more
          often than not
          > rather than translate the step names (which can be pretty silly
          sounding) I
          > just
          > clip them off.

          Oh yeah - names that don't have ready English translations just stay
          in Italian. :) I can't see myself calling for a "broken sequence"
          when I can just say "spezzato". :) Although I have been known to
          call "spezzati" "scoochy steps" just to get my point across. :)
          However, that's only for teaching! After the first inital run-
          throughs, it's back to Italian! :)

          >> Mercantia
          > Ok. HOpefully I can get my crew to try it over the summer when we
          don't have
          > homework and can have two hour dance practices.

          It's not overly difficult once you get the idea behind it. What's
          really fun is to work it and Sobria up to be performed together. :)
          Marketplace (where the lady dances with everyone - trying them out,
          as it were) and Sobriety (where she only dances with her partner and
          everyone else tries to pick her up). :) They look really good with a
          lot of facial expression and drama. :) I think the dance part is
          almost secondary. :)

          > Well you still have to admit she's a very nifty person! Seriously,
          though,
          > I'd
          > be interested to know where you differ. I've got a copy of the big
          blue book
          > of
          > 15th c. dance treatises in my room right now and have just started
          poking
          > through it.

          Smith? Great resource! :) I've reconstructed so much stuff out of
          that book! :) Not to mention that the first volume is excellent for
          theory. :) (Volume II is back in print, if you weren't aware of that
          yet. :)

          Rosina and I differ on things like riprese, pive and contrepassi. Oh,
          and salterelli. :) We also have some serious differences on
          reconstruction in some of the dances. She does some things that seem
          to me to be really wierd. But that's kinda the thing about dance
          reconstruction - what I see in the source and work out in performance
          may not be what she sees or you see or anyone else sees. The only
          thing we can do is try to keep it intact with the sources themselves.
          However, she and I do have some absolutely reverse ways of looking at
          things sometimes. :)

          > *laugh* It's a small small society we're living in. I wonder how
          many steps
          > it
          > takes before every dance master/mistress in the known world is
          connected to
          > every other one.

          Sounds like an experiment to me! :) Let's see...I know Conrad (hi
          Conrad!), Bartolo, Mistress Caitlin de Courcy, Wolfgang Adolphus
          Jaeger, Greg (gb)(and that's a story and a half), Master Niccolo and
          the people here.... I'm sure that should get us at least half-way to
          everyone else. ;) Heehee - the 7 degrees of <insert name here> -
          could be a great party game for Pennsic! :)

          I have a question for y'all out there in Calontir. How have you
          managed to get the Italians to catch on? I remember when I was out
          there, we predominately did ECD and Arbeau. What things have worked
          for you? :) (I'm desperately searching for new things to try out
          here. :)

          Julian
        • Sauer, Michael F.
          ... Well, better late than never :) ... Hrumph! I came out to your war ;) ... I wouldn t say thare is specific resistance to any dance form. This is not
          Message 4 of 18 , May 8, 2000
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            > Hi Conrad (et all..)

            Well, better late than never :)


            > All this talk about Lillies makes me wish I could actually get there
            > this year! :)

            Hrumph! I came out to your war ;)

            > Just a couple of thoughts from an exiled Calontiri...
            >
            > I personally love Rostiboli. :) I learned it in Drachenwald (via the
            > mundane Italian schools) and will do it anytime, anyplace. :) I wish
            > it was done more often in the SCA (well, outside Carolingia!). :) I
            > don't know how the dance world is over in Calontir anymore, but in
            > this dance-backwater kingdom we tend to have resistance to the later
            > Italians.

            I wouldn't say thare is specific resistance to any dance form.
            This is not necessarilly a good thing, becaue its mostly that
            the (relatively few) actually interested in dance will try most
            anything. But hte numbers are starting to grow. Of the 9 weekends
            in april and may, dancing has been on the schedule of at least
            5 events!


            > Makes me wish I could be there this year. What are the classes
            > shaping up like for the KWASS?

            stay tuned :)

            >
            > PS: Conrad - last count was 121 dances! Where are you? ;)

            That you know? Have music for?
            I have no idea.

            Conrad
          • Sauer, Michael F.
            ... I agree too, but I don t know the last one (yet). I think the third one in my book is Gelosia. I think it helps some of the ECD mindset cause it sorta
            Message 5 of 18 , May 8, 2000
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              > >I personally love Rostiboli. :) I learned it in Drachenwald (via the
              > >mundane Italian schools) and will do it anytime, anyplace. :) I wish
              > >it was done more often in the SCA (well, outside Carolingia!). :)
              >
              > I couldn't agree more. It's one of my 'personal crusade'
              > dances that I wish
              > would become an SCA standard. It's also one of only two
              > Italian dances that
              > my
              > (overwhelmingly open and wonderful) dancers request (the
              > other being Petit
              > Riens, although I'm winning them over with Dolce Amoroso Fiamma).


              I agree too, but I don't know the last one (yet). I think the
              third one in my book is Gelosia. I think it helps some of the
              ECD mindset cause it sorta looks line one (at least for a little
              while - none of the everyone wandering all over the place.


              Conrad
            • Sauer, Michael F.
              ... Aparently someone back east has reconstruced and created music for petit rose (a 2 person dance). Conrad
              Message 6 of 18 , May 8, 2000
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                > I've got a two-person version of Petit Vriens which I occasionally
                > throw on to confuse our kingdom dance minister. :) But that's beside
                > the point. :)

                Aparently someone back east has reconstruced and created music for
                petit rose (a 2 person dance).

                Conrad
              • Sauer, Michael F.
                ... Its more like 2 or 3. My list; Alphia, Sion, Faelen, Rosenore, Alina, Rosina, Philipe, Gregory, Giuseppe, William Redcape, Guiiliam, Perenell (sp?),
                Message 7 of 18 , May 8, 2000
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                  > Sounds like an experiment to me! :) Let's see...I know Conrad (hi
                  > Conrad!), Bartolo, Mistress Caitlin de Courcy, Wolfgang Adolphus
                  > Jaeger, Greg (gb)(and that's a story and a half), Master Niccolo and
                  > the people here.... I'm sure that should get us at least half-way to
                  > everyone else. ;) Heehee - the 7 degrees of <insert name here> -
                  > could be a great party game for Pennsic! :)

                  Its more like 2 or 3. My list; Alphia, Sion, Faelen, Rosenore, Alina,
                  Rosina, Philipe, Gregory, Giuseppe, William Redcape, Guiiliam,
                  Perenell (sp?), Nicoolo, Julian, Del all the calontir people etc.

                  Ok so I cheated and went to the known world dance symposium last year :)

                  > I have a question for y'all out there in Calontir. How have you
                  > managed to get the Italians to catch on? I remember when I was out
                  > there, we predominately did ECD and Arbeau. What things have worked
                  > for you? :) (I'm desperately searching for new things to try out
                  > here. :)

                  Show up and teach. Its easy to just start teaching from scratch then
                  if you have a moderately active group of dances who know what they like
                  and like what they know.

                  Conrad
                • Kirsten Garner
                  Hi all.. ... there ... I know, bad Julian. :) Just mark it down to another instance of Tristram and I avoiding each other. ;) ... That I know, can dance and
                  Message 8 of 18 , May 8, 2000
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                    Hi all..

                    > > All this talk about Lillies makes me wish I could actually get
                    there
                    > > this year! :)
                    >
                    > Hrumph! I came out to your war ;)

                    I know, bad Julian. :) Just mark it down to another instance of
                    Tristram and I avoiding each other. ;)

                    > > PS: Conrad - last count was 121 dances! Where are you? ;)
                    >
                    > That you know? Have music for?

                    That I know, can dance and have music for. :) That's counting the 4
                    15th-century Italians that I put together last week. :)

                    It's amazing what one can do when one is avoiding a PhD. :)

                    Julian
                  • Kirsten Garner
                    Hi again... :) ... year :) Next time... well, maybe if it ever gets out this way. I don t know if I can afford Boston. :) ... like ... That s what I ve been
                    Message 9 of 18 , May 8, 2000
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                      Hi again... :)

                      > Ok so I cheated and went to the known world dance symposium last
                      year :)

                      Next time... well, maybe if it ever gets out this way. I don't know
                      if I can afford Boston. :)

                      > Show up and teach. Its easy to just start teaching from scratch then
                      > if you have a moderately active group of dances who know what they
                      like
                      > and like what they know.

                      That's what I've been doing. I landed in Atenveldt, went to a dance
                      practice that Friday night and ended up teaching two classes at the
                      Kingdom Dance Collegium (the next day - Saturday). It's been downhill
                      ever since. ;) I'm now baronial dance minister for the barony (and
                      it's a HUGE barony - scared the mess out of me when I first got
                      here). I run two dance practices a month and at events. The problem
                      is that there was already *some* dance out here (mostly OOP and some
                      ECD) which is what people want to do. There is heavy resistance to
                      Italians. So..I try to work around that as well as I can -
                      introducing easy Italians very very very slowly. There's also the
                      ever-present "Can we do X dance?". A good example is Contrapasso
                      Nuovo. To which the answer is inevitably "Which version? Caroso Il
                      Ballarino, Caroso Nobilita, Negri, Master dance laurel's version, or
                      some other odd creation?". No one knows, but when you try to
                      introduce the one you know, the response is, wait for it, "That's not
                      how we do it". It's kinda frustrating at times. So I'm open for
                      suggestions. :)

                      Julian
                    • Ms. Catherine E. Dean, Esq.
                      ... OOh, I m somewhat in awe. I just catalogued mine and it ended up only in the mid-40s (and that was being generous counting things I d need a bit of review
                      Message 10 of 18 , May 8, 2000
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                        >> > PS: Conrad - last count was 121 dances! Where are you? ;)
                        >>
                        >> That you know? Have music for?
                        >
                        >That I know, can dance and have music for. :) That's counting the 4
                        >15th-century Italians that I put together last week. :)
                        >
                        >It's amazing what one can do when one is avoiding a PhD. :)
                        >
                        >Julian

                        OOh, I'm somewhat in awe. I just catalogued mine and it ended up only in the
                        mid-40s (and that was being generous counting things I'd need a bit of review
                        before teaching, but not counting the Inns of Court stuff).

                        But then I'm only avoiding a bachelor's!

                        Katherine

                        ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                        Cathy Dean Katherine Mercer
                        Grinnell College Seneschal, College of NoMountain
                        deanc@... Calontir
                        http://home.earthlink.net/~lfdean
                        Knowledge is Power; Power Corrupts; Study Hard; Be Evil
                        ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                      • Ms. Catherine E. Dean, Esq.
                        ... Hmmm... how well do we need to know dance instructors for them to count? There are a few who I could probably count as people I know but wouldn t want to
                        Message 11 of 18 , May 8, 2000
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                          >===== Original Message From CalontirDance@egroups.com =====
                          >> Sounds like an experiment to me! :) Let's see...I know Conrad (hi
                          >> Conrad!), Bartolo, Mistress Caitlin de Courcy, Wolfgang Adolphus
                          >> Jaeger, Greg (gb)(and that's a story and a half), Master Niccolo and
                          >> the people here.... I'm sure that should get us at least half-way to
                          >> everyone else. ;) Heehee - the 7 degrees of -
                          >> could be a great party game for Pennsic! :)
                          >
                          >Its more like 2 or 3. My list; Alphia, Sion, Faelen, Rosenore, Alina,
                          >Rosina, Philipe, Gregory, Giuseppe, William Redcape, Guiiliam,
                          >Perenell (sp?), Nicoolo, Julian, Del all the calontir people etc.

                          Hmmm... how well do we need to know dance instructors for them to count?
                          There
                          are a few who I could probably count as people I know but wouldn't want to
                          (sorry, getting catty for a moment, no one here in Calontir, thank goodness!)

                          So... People I really know: Conrad, Tsire, Daria (in Calontir), Bartolo (in
                          Atenvelt), Alina, Llewellyn, and the rest of the Cynnabar crew (in the
                          Midrealm), Theodorin, Anne, and (briefly) Melusine (in Drachenwald). Must
                          network more....

                          >
                          >Ok so I cheated and went to the known world dance symposium last year :)

                          New year for sure. Already budgeting for a plane ticket.

                          >
                          >> I have a question for y'all out there in Calontir. How have you
                          >> managed to get the Italians to catch on? I remember when I was out
                          >> there, we predominately did ECD and Arbeau. What things have worked
                          >> for you? :) (I'm desperately searching for new things to try out
                          >> here. :)
                          >
                          >Show up and teach. Its easy to just start teaching from scratch then
                          >if you have a moderately active group of dances who know what they like
                          >and like what they know.

                          Well, I've been blessed with very open dancers (undergrads at a very liberal
                          college for the most part), but my tactic has been a) to be openly
                          enthusiastic
                          about what I'm going to teach b) never force anything down their throats c)
                          always try to do a balance of new and old stuff (an easy repetoire dance like
                          Black Alman to cement things in their heads, maybe one italian, an
                          intermediate
                          ECD and Posten's or something fast and fun) and c) take things very slowly.

                          And unfortuantely from what I've seen, they haven't quite caught on yet.
                          People
                          may not run from the room when they hear the next dance is going to be Gelosia
                          or something like that, but they don't exactly jump for joy like I've
                          witnessed
                          over Hole in the Head (oops, Wall).

                          Of course I can't speak for what's going on down south.

                          Katheri

                          ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                          Cathy Dean Katherine Mercer
                          Grinnell College Seneschal, College of NoMountain
                          deanc@... Calontir
                          http://home.earthlink.net/~lfdean
                          Knowledge is Power; Power Corrupts; Study Hard; Be Evil
                          ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                        • Ms. Catherine E. Dean, Esq.
                          ... Soon, soon (if the music gods cooporate *laugh*). I think the ... Oh, but that s the glory of 15th c--all of the wonderful chase stuff. Ah.... Katherine
                          Message 12 of 18 , May 8, 2000
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                            >===== Original Message From CalontirDance@egroups.com =====
                            >> >I personally love Rostiboli. :) I learned it in Drachenwald (via the
                            >> >mundane Italian schools) and will do it anytime, anyplace. :) I wish
                            >> >it was done more often in the SCA (well, outside Carolingia!). :)
                            >>
                            >> I couldn't agree more. It's one of my 'personal crusade'
                            >> dances that I wish
                            >> would become an SCA standard. It's also one of only two
                            >> Italian dances that
                            >> my
                            >> (overwhelmingly open and wonderful) dancers request (the
                            >> other being Petit
                            >> Riens, although I'm winning them over with Dolce Amoroso Fiamma).
                            >
                            >
                            >I agree too, but I don't know the last one (yet).

                            Soon, soon (if the music gods cooporate *laugh*).

                            I think the
                            >third one in my book is Gelosia. I think it helps some of the
                            >ECD mindset cause it sorta looks line one (at least for a little
                            >while - none of the everyone wandering all over the place.
                            >

                            Oh, but that's the glory of 15th c--all of the wonderful chase stuff. Ah....

                            Katherine

                            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                            Cathy Dean Katherine Mercer
                            Grinnell College Seneschal, College of NoMountain
                            deanc@... Calontir
                            http://home.earthlink.net/~lfdean
                            Knowledge is Power; Power Corrupts; Study Hard; Be Evil
                            ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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