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Re: [Cadillac_Performance_Association] 1973 500 CI

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  • bill lutzius
    Some cars didn,t have the smog pump.So you can replace the water pump and crank pullys with ones from a non pump car.I did this ,no problem.Mine is a 69
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 20, 2003
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      Some cars didn,t have the smog pump.So you can replace
      the water pump and crank pullys with ones from a non
      pump car.I did this ,no problem.Mine is a 69
      deville,and i found the pullys on a 69 or 70 car.So i
      don,t know why some have a smog pump and some
      don,t.But the nice thing about junking the pump is
      that when the smog pump fails it stops the water
      pump,very bad.So if you have the smog pump make sure
      that the one way air valve is working.When it fails
      the smog pump fails.
      --- ronhammer2000 <ronhammer5@...> wrote:
      > I have a 1973 500 CI from an Eldorado. I am using
      > the engine and
      > transmission in a swap so I do not need all the
      > accessories.
      > Is there an easy way to remove the air pump?
      > Currently the air pump
      > is used to tighten the water pump belt. I could make
      > a custom
      > tensioner or remount the alternator so that would
      > tighten the water
      > pump belt. Before I do all this I was just checking
      > if there was an
      > easier way.
      > Ron
      >
      >


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    • John Brody
      I think the most common method is to use pulleys from a 425 that came from the factory without a smog pump. They are stamped steel and are noticeable because
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 21, 2003
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        I think the most common method is to use pulleys from a 425 that came from the factory without a smog pump.  They are stamped steel and are noticeable because the water pump pulley only has one groove, and the crank pulley has a big gap between the water pump/alternator groove and the AC/power steering groove.  These will bolt directly onto a 472/500 crank hub and water pump.  You will also need the plastic timing pointer, as the notch on the 425 crank pulley is offset about 12 degrees from where it is on the 500 crank pulley.
         
        This might be a better solution if you have a 472/500 with HEI, because I've heard that the pulleys on early, points-ignition big blocks come very close to (and sometimes rub against) a wider HEI distributor.  The 425's all had HEI, so the pulleys are already spaced correctly for the distributor.
         
        A note from my experience: all 425's sold in California had a smog pump, making the right pulleys hard to find here.  From what I've heard they are easier to find in other states and Canada.
         
        John

         

        Pollorey <philsfcs@...> wrote:
        Or you could remove the vanes inside the pump and use it as an idler pulley.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: ronhammer2000 [mailto:ronhammer5@...]
        Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 9:54 AM
        To: Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Cadillac_Performance_Association] 1973 500 CI

        I have a 1973 500 CI from an Eldorado. I am using the engine and
        transmission in a swap so I do not need all the accessories.
        Is there an easy way to remove the air pump? Currently the air pump
        is used to tighten the water pump belt. I could make a custom
        tensioner or remount the alternator so that would tighten the water
        pump belt. Before I do all this I was just checking if there was an
        easier way.
        Ron


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      • ronhammer2000
        What years did the 425 come without a smog part? Does this set up still use the same alternator braket? Was there 500 without smog pump too like Bill L. said.
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 21, 2003
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          What years did the 425 come without a smog part? Does this set up
          still use the same alternator braket? Was there 500 without smog pump
          too like Bill L. said. If so what years.
          Is there any where online that has these part or do I have to call
          junk yards.

          Thanks for all the help.
          Ron


          --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, John Brody
          <jtbrody2002@y...> wrote:
          > I think the most common method is to use pulleys from a 425 that
          came from the factory without a smog pump. They are stamped steel
          and are noticeable because the water pump pulley only has one groove,
          and the crank pulley has a big gap between the water pump/alternator
          groove and the AC/power steering groove. These will bolt directly
          onto a 472/500 crank hub and water pump. You will also need the
          plastic timing pointer, as the notch on the 425 crank pulley is
          offset about 12 degrees from where it is on the 500 crank pulley.
          >
          > This might be a better solution if you have a 472/500 with HEI,
          because I've heard that the pulleys on early, points-ignition big
          blocks come very close to (and sometimes rub against) a wider HEI
          distributor. The 425's all had HEI, so the pulleys are already
          spaced correctly for the distributor.
          >
          > A note from my experience: all 425's sold in California had a smog
          pump, making the right pulleys hard to find here. From what I've
          heard they are easier to find in other states and Canada.
          >
          > John
          >
          >
          >
          > Pollorey <philsfcs@n...> wrote:
          > Or you could remove the vanes inside the pump and use it as an
          idler pulley.
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: ronhammer2000 [mailto:ronhammer5@a...]
          > Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 9:54 AM
          > To: Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [Cadillac_Performance_Association] 1973 500 CI
          >
          > I have a 1973 500 CI from an Eldorado. I am using the engine and
          > transmission in a swap so I do not need all the accessories.
          > Is there an easy way to remove the air pump? Currently the air pump
          > is used to tighten the water pump belt. I could make a custom
          > tensioner or remount the alternator so that would tighten the water
          > pump belt. Before I do all this I was just checking if there was an
          > easier way.
          > Ron
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > Cadillac_Performance_Association-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cadillac_Performance_Association/
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > Cadillac_Performance_Association-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • bill lutzius
          The cars without a smog pump may have come from outside california,which is where i am.But i see them every now and then at the junk yard.But they have a can
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 21, 2003
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            The cars without a smog pump may have come from
            outside california,which is where i am.But i see them
            every now and then at the junk yard.But they have a
            can for vapors from the gas.Behind the drivers
            headlight i think.Looks like a old coffee can with
            hoses going back to the gas tank.So maybe this was
            used instead of a smog pump.These cars were 69 or 70.
            --- ronhammer2000 <ronhammer5@...> wrote:
            > What years did the 425 come without a smog part?
            > Does this set up
            > still use the same alternator braket? Was there 500
            > without smog pump
            > too like Bill L. said. If so what years.
            > Is there any where online that has these part or do
            > I have to call
            > junk yards.
            >
            > Thanks for all the help.
            > Ron
            >
            >
            > --- In
            > Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com,
            > John Brody
            > <jtbrody2002@y...> wrote:
            > > I think the most common method is to use pulleys
            > from a 425 that
            > came from the factory without a smog pump. They are
            > stamped steel
            > and are noticeable because the water pump pulley
            > only has one groove,
            > and the crank pulley has a big gap between the water
            > pump/alternator
            > groove and the AC/power steering groove. These will
            > bolt directly
            > onto a 472/500 crank hub and water pump. You will
            > also need the
            > plastic timing pointer, as the notch on the 425
            > crank pulley is
            > offset about 12 degrees from where it is on the 500
            > crank pulley.
            > >
            > > This might be a better solution if you have a
            > 472/500 with HEI,
            > because I've heard that the pulleys on early,
            > points-ignition big
            > blocks come very close to (and sometimes rub
            > against) a wider HEI
            > distributor. The 425's all had HEI, so the pulleys
            > are already
            > spaced correctly for the distributor.
            > >
            > > A note from my experience: all 425's sold in
            > California had a smog
            > pump, making the right pulleys hard to find here.
            > From what I've
            > heard they are easier to find in other states and
            > Canada.
            > >
            > > John
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Pollorey <philsfcs@n...> wrote:
            > > Or you could remove the vanes inside the pump and
            > use it as an
            > idler pulley.
            > >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: ronhammer2000 [mailto:ronhammer5@a...]
            > > Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 9:54 AM
            > > To:
            > Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: [Cadillac_Performance_Association] 1973
            > 500 CI
            > >
            > > I have a 1973 500 CI from an Eldorado. I am using
            > the engine and
            > > transmission in a swap so I do not need all the
            > accessories.
            > > Is there an easy way to remove the air pump?
            > Currently the air pump
            > > is used to tighten the water pump belt. I could
            > make a custom
            > > tensioner or remount the alternator so that would
            > tighten the water
            > > pump belt. Before I do all this I was just
            > checking if there was an
            > > easier way.
            > > Ron
            > >
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > >
            >
            Cadillac_Performance_Association-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > >
            >
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cadillac_Performance_Association/
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > >
            >
            Cadillac_Performance_Association-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
            > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > >
            >
            Cadillac_Performance_Association-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > >
            >
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            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
            > to:
            > >
            >
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            > Service.
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          • Steven Critchfield
            ... The vapor canister was used even on smog pump cars. The question that is being asked is belt routing, not emissions related.
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 22, 2003
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              On Sun, 2003-12-21 at 20:45, bill lutzius wrote:
              > The cars without a smog pump may have come from
              > outside california,which is where i am.But i see them
              > every now and then at the junk yard.But they have a
              > can for vapors from the gas.Behind the drivers
              > headlight i think.Looks like a old coffee can with
              > hoses going back to the gas tank.So maybe this was
              > used instead of a smog pump.These cars were 69 or 70.

              The vapor canister was used even on smog pump cars. The question that is
              being asked is belt routing, not emissions related.
            • bill lutzius
              I thought thats what we were talking about. ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 22, 2003
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                I thought thats what we were talking about.
                --- Steven Critchfield <yahoo@...> wrote:
                > On Sun, 2003-12-21 at 20:45, bill lutzius wrote:
                > > The cars without a smog pump may have come from
                > > outside california,which is where i am.But i see
                > them
                > > every now and then at the junk yard.But they have
                > a
                > > can for vapors from the gas.Behind the drivers
                > > headlight i think.Looks like a old coffee can with
                > > hoses going back to the gas tank.So maybe this was
                > > used instead of a smog pump.These cars were 69 or
                > 70.
                >
                > The vapor canister was used even on smog pump cars.
                > The question that is
                > being asked is belt routing, not emissions related.
                >
                >
                >
                >


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              • John Brody
                OK, here s the deal as far as I know... The routing of the water pump pulley on a 368/425/472/500 depends on whether or not it had a smog pump, because the
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 24, 2003
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                  OK, here's the deal as far as I know...
                   
                  The routing of the water pump pulley on a 368/425/472/500 depends on whether or not it had a smog pump, because the smog pump is used to tension the crank/water pump belt on smog cars.  On non-smog cars, the alternator is used to tension the belt -- and yes, the same alternator bracket can be used.  There were two eras of big block Cadillac that came without a smog pump, and therefore used the alternator to tension the water pump pulley.  Some early ('68-'70?) 472/500 Cads came without a smog pump, but the pulleys positioned the belts very close to the block -- no problem, since the points-type distributor was narrow enough not to interfere with the belts.  Some later ('77-'79?) 425's came without a smog pump as well, but the pulleys positioned the belts farther away from the block in order to allow space for the wider HEI distributor.  So, to be clear, ANY big block Cad with a single-groove water pump pulley will work to convert your water pump from being tensioned by the smog pump to being tensioned by the alternator, thereby allowing removal of the smog pump.  Later 425 non-smog pulleys will easily clear an HEI distributor, while early non-smog 472/500 pulleys will make HEI clearance tight.  Hope this clears up any confusion.

                  Finally, the evap canister (where gas fumes collected and sent back to the tank) *is* part of the emissions equipment, but don't apply to the routing of the belts.
                   
                  John

                  bill lutzius <billlutzius@...> wrote:
                  The cars without a smog pump may have come from
                  outside california,which is where i am.But i see them
                  every now and then at the junk yard.But they have a
                  can for vapors from the gas.Behind the drivers
                  headlight i think.Looks like a old coffee can with
                  hoses going back to the gas tank.So maybe this was
                  used instead of a smog pump.These cars were 69 or 70.
                  --- ronhammer2000 <ronhammer5@...> wrote:
                  > What years did the 425 come without a smog part?
                  > Does this set up
                  > still use the same alternator braket? Was there 500
                  > without smog pump
                  > too like Bill L. said. If so what years.
                  > Is there any where online that has these part or do
                  > I have to call
                  > junk yards.
                  >
                  > Thanks for all the help.
                  > Ron
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In
                  > Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com,
                  > John Brody
                  > <jtbrody2002@y...> wrote:
                  > > I think the most common method is to use pulleys
                  > from a 425 that
                  > came from the factory without a smog pump.  They are
                  > stamped steel
                  > and are noticeable because the water pump pulley
                  > only has one groove,
                  > and the crank pulley has a big gap between the water
                  > pump/alternator
                  > groove and the AC/power steering groove.  These will
                  > bolt directly
                  > onto a 472/500 crank hub and water pump.  You will
                  > also need the
                  > plastic timing pointer, as the notch on the 425
                  > crank pulley is
                  > offset about 12 degrees from where it is on the 500
                  > crank pulley.
                  > > 
                  > > This might be a better solution if you have a
                  > 472/500 with HEI,
                  > because I've heard that the pulleys on early,
                  > points-ignition big
                  > blocks come very close to (and sometimes rub
                  > against) a wider HEI
                  > distributor.  The 425's all had HEI, so the pulleys
                  > are already
                  > spaced correctly for the distributor.
                  > > 
                  > > A note from my experience: all 425's sold in
                  > California had a smog
                  > pump, making the right pulleys hard to find here.
                  > From what I've
                  > heard they are easier to find in other states and
                  > Canada.
                  > > 
                  > > John
                  > >
                  > > 
                  > >
                  > > Pollorey <philsfcs@n...> wrote:
                  > > Or you could remove the vanes inside the pump and
                  > use it as an
                  > idler pulley.
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: ronhammer2000 [mailto:ronhammer5@a...]
                  > > Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 9:54 AM
                  > > To:
                  > Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: [Cadillac_Performance_Association] 1973
                  > 500 CI
                  > >
                  > > I have a 1973 500 CI from an Eldorado. I am using
                  > the engine and
                  > > transmission in a swap so I do not need all the
                  > accessories.
                  > > Is there an easy way to remove the air pump?
                  > Currently the air pump
                  > > is used to tighten the water pump belt. I could
                  > make a custom
                  > > tensioner or remount the alternator so that would
                  > tighten the water
                  > > pump belt. Before I do all this I was just
                  > checking if there was an
                  > > easier way.
                  > > Ron
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > >
                  >
                  Cadillac_Performance_Association-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > >
                  >
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cadillac_Performance_Association/
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > >
                  >
                  Cadillac_Performance_Association-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                  > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > >
                  >
                  Cadillac_Performance_Association-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > >
                  > > ---------------------------------
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >    To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > >
                  >
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cadillac_Performance_Association/
                  > >  
                  > >    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
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                  > >
                  >
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                  > >    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                  > Yahoo! Terms of
                  > Service.
                  > >
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                  >
                  >


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                • bill lutzius
                  I think thats great,lots of info.I only was noteing that the non smog pump cars had the vapor can .I,m sure some had both.But you explain it much better than
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 25, 2003
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                    I think thats great,lots of info.I only was noteing
                    that the non smog pump cars had the vapor can .I,m
                    sure some had both.But you explain it much better than
                    i.
                    --- John Brody <jtbrody2002@...> wrote:
                    > OK, here's the deal as far as I know...
                    >
                    > The routing of the water pump pulley on a
                    > 368/425/472/500 depends on whether or not it had a
                    > smog pump, because the smog pump is used to tension
                    > the crank/water pump belt on smog cars. On non-smog
                    > cars, the alternator is used to tension the belt --
                    > and yes, the same alternator bracket can be used.
                    > There were two eras of big block Cadillac that came
                    > without a smog pump, and therefore used the
                    > alternator to tension the water pump pulley. Some
                    > early ('68-'70?) 472/500 Cads came without a smog
                    > pump, but the pulleys positioned the belts very
                    > close to the block -- no problem, since the
                    > points-type distributor was narrow enough not to
                    > interfere with the belts. Some later ('77-'79?)
                    > 425's came without a smog pump as well, but the
                    > pulleys positioned the belts farther away from the
                    > block in order to allow space for the wider HEI
                    > distributor. So, to be clear, ANY big block Cad
                    > with a single-groove water pump pulley will work to
                    > convert your water pump from being tensioned by the
                    > smog pump
                    > to being tensioned by the alternator, thereby
                    > allowing removal of the smog pump. Later 425
                    > non-smog pulleys will easily clear an HEI
                    > distributor, while early non-smog 472/500 pulleys
                    > will make HEI clearance tight. Hope this clears up
                    > any confusion.
                    >
                    > Finally, the evap canister (where gas fumes
                    > collected and sent back to the tank) *is* part of
                    > the emissions equipment, but don't apply to the
                    > routing of the belts.
                    >
                    > John
                    >
                    > bill lutzius <billlutzius@...> wrote:
                    > The cars without a smog pump may have come from
                    > outside california,which is where i am.But i see
                    > them
                    > every now and then at the junk yard.But they have a
                    > can for vapors from the gas.Behind the drivers
                    > headlight i think.Looks like a old coffee can with
                    > hoses going back to the gas tank.So maybe this was
                    > used instead of a smog pump.These cars were 69 or
                    > 70.
                    > --- ronhammer2000 <ronhammer5@...> wrote:
                    > > What years did the 425 come without a smog part?
                    > > Does this set up
                    > > still use the same alternator braket? Was there
                    > 500
                    > > without smog pump
                    > > too like Bill L. said. If so what years.
                    > > Is there any where online that has these part or
                    > do
                    > > I have to call
                    > > junk yards.
                    > >
                    > > Thanks for all the help.
                    > > Ron
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In
                    > > Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com,
                    > > John Brody
                    > > <jtbrody2002@y...> wrote:
                    > > > I think the most common method is to use pulleys
                    > > from a 425 that
                    > > came from the factory without a smog pump. They
                    > are
                    > > stamped steel
                    > > and are noticeable because the water pump pulley
                    > > only has one groove,
                    > > and the crank pulley has a big gap between the
                    > water
                    > > pump/alternator
                    > > groove and the AC/power steering groove. These
                    > will
                    > > bolt directly
                    > > onto a 472/500 crank hub and water pump. You will
                    > > also need the
                    > > plastic timing pointer, as the notch on the 425
                    > > crank pulley is
                    > > offset about 12 degrees from where it is on the
                    > 500
                    > > crank pulley.
                    > > >
                    > > > This might be a better solution if you have a
                    > > 472/500 with HEI,
                    > > because I've heard that the pulleys on early,
                    > > points-ignition big
                    > > blocks come very close to (and sometimes rub
                    > > against) a wider HEI
                    > > distributor. The 425's all had HEI, so the
                    > pulleys
                    > > are already
                    > > spaced correctly for the distributor.
                    > > >
                    > > > A note from my experience: all 425's sold in
                    > > California had a smog
                    > > pump, making the right pulleys hard to find here.
                    > > From what I've
                    > > heard they are easier to find in other states and
                    > > Canada.
                    > > >
                    > > > John
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Pollorey <philsfcs@n...> wrote:
                    > > > Or you could remove the vanes inside the pump
                    > and
                    > > use it as an
                    > > idler pulley.
                    > > >
                    > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > From: ronhammer2000 [mailto:ronhammer5@a...]
                    > > > Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 9:54 AM
                    > > > To:
                    > > Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Subject: [Cadillac_Performance_Association] 1973
                    > > 500 CI
                    > > >
                    > > > I have a 1973 500 CI from an Eldorado. I am
                    > using
                    > > the engine and
                    > > > transmission in a swap so I do not need all the
                    > > accessories.
                    > > > Is there an easy way to remove the air pump?
                    > > Currently the air pump
                    > > > is used to tighten the water pump belt. I could
                    > > make a custom
                    > > > tensioner or remount the alternator so that
                    > would
                    > > tighten the water
                    > > > pump belt. Before I do all this I was just
                    > > checking if there was an
                    > > > easier way.
                    > > > Ron
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                    > to:
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                    Cadillac_Performance_Association-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
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                    > > >
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                    > >
                    >
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                    > > >
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                    > to:
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
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                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                    > to:
                    > > >
                    > >
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                    > > >
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                    === message truncated ===


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