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500 interchange and durability

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  • timiacobucci
    Hi everybody, my name is Tim Iacobucci and this is my first post on this board. I haven t been interested in the big cad engines for all that long and I wish I
    Message 1 of 4 , Aug 4, 2003
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      Hi everybody, my name is Tim Iacobucci and this is my first post on
      this board. I haven't been interested in the big cad engines for all
      that long and I wish I knew about them sooner as I really like to
      research things thoroughly and I have a good knowledge base on every
      engine I've worked on so far but this one. 460 being my first
      love, sorry to and ford haters out there but I figure the ford vs.
      chevy thing doesn't really extend to Cadillac and there are
      probably a good amount of you here that enjoy romping bbc's as
      much as the 460 crew with our "boat anchors". I haven't
      had to long to comb the archives here but I can see there are
      definitely people here with the 500 knowledge I'm looking for.

      First I guess I should describe my project. I'm setting up 500
      with 2 grand national tubros carbed to put in an 85 monte carlo.
      From other message boards I've read a stock 500 makes a g car go
      11's, which I can believe if the torque numbers I hear about are
      realistic. I've heard older closed chamber pre emissions headed
      500's were rated at 550 ft. lbs., how true have you all found
      this to be? I ask because it leads into my next question which is
      durability which I directly relate to torque production (within
      stock rev range). I plan to keep it under 5 grand as I hear that is
      a good practical limit to keep these engines comfortable but how
      much torque production do you think this engine can tolerate before
      it begins breaking stuff. I plan to upgrade head and main studs and
      will go with somebody's forged rods if there are no cheaper
      strength interchange rods from another engine? I also plan to o-ring
      the block and weld up some sort of custom steel girdle/side bolt
      device and accommodating pan. I want to use as much boost as I can
      make without destroying the engine, what are the practical limits of
      the stock engine, and what levels do you think are possible after
      correcting any weak points? I was told that the rods/rods bolts
      would be the first to snap under big torque. If this is corrected
      and if I can control cap walk how much abuse do you believe the
      stock crank can endure? Are there any other cranks in between stock
      and full out custom billet? How strong are the mains and what kind
      of meat is there for like maybe splayed 4th additions? Has anyone
      ever blown a cyl wall? I plan to keep the overbore as small as
      possible for cyl wall strength, I've heard these blocks can be
      very hard and have very good wear characteristics, is there a chance
      of cleaning up and using stock bore? Would some hardblock help at
      all, I don't want to do too much as I want to drive it on the
      street and would like to keep as much water as I can.

      My next big question is interchange. I plan on probably using a new
      venture probably 4500 but depending on the durability of the engine
      just possibly a 5600. Does anyone even know a source for these, 360
      lbs. is harsh but not intolerable if it can endure massive torque
      loads that would makeup for its weight. So how can I attach this
      trans, what flywheels/ clutches will work with this engine? Does it
      share any other gm bellhousing like maybe an olds and if I were to
      go auto with a th400 is the stock behind a 500 that's rwd a good
      core to build on, and what cars have these and which are 425? Are
      these any different from other 400's and do any other flexplates
      or starters interchange? Are some blocks better than others if I can
      get pre 73 heads elsewhere or is there a way to check for a good
      block other than opening it up? How much does mileage generally
      affect these engines, should I look for a high mile seasoned block
      or a low wear low mileage one? What other parts if any interchange
      with any other gm engines? And rods or pistons, I know no
      crankshafts interchange but are there any year or type cranks that
      are know to be stronger? Any other little bits or parts, fuel pump,
      oil pump/filter, water pump or accessories/brackets?

      I know that's a whole lot of questions but I'm real eager for
      info, I plan to get the MTS book, any other recommended caddy
      reading? Any and all answers, opinions or speculation is very
      appreciated and I am very thankful for any helpful info/experience
      you may share.
    • c322348
      Post your question on the following discussion board: http://www.hwforums.com/2089/ That is where all the Caddy performance experts primarily reside! Some of
      Message 2 of 4 , Aug 5, 2003
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        Post your question on the following discussion board:

        http://www.hwforums.com/2089/

        That is where all the Caddy performance experts primarily reside!
        Some of the guys there use blowers and nitrous. I think that there is
        at least one turbo project in work as well.


        --- In
        Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, "timiacobucci"
        <timordog@h...> wrote:
        > Hi everybody, my name is Tim Iacobucci and this is my first post on
        > this board. I haven't been interested in the big cad engines for
        all
        > that long and I wish I knew about them sooner as I really like to
        > research things thoroughly and I have a good knowledge base on
        every
        > engine I've worked on so far but this one. 460 being my first
        > love, sorry to and ford haters out there but I figure the ford vs.
        > chevy thing doesn't really extend to Cadillac and there are
        > probably a good amount of you here that enjoy romping bbc's as
        > much as the 460 crew with our "boat anchors". I haven't
        > had to long to comb the archives here but I can see there are
        > definitely people here with the 500 knowledge I'm looking for.
        >
        > First I guess I should describe my project. I'm setting up 500
        > with 2 grand national tubros carbed to put in an 85 monte carlo.
        > From other message boards I've read a stock 500 makes a g car go
        > 11's, which I can believe if the torque numbers I hear about are
        > realistic. I've heard older closed chamber pre emissions headed
        > 500's were rated at 550 ft. lbs., how true have you all found
        > this to be? I ask because it leads into my next question which is
        > durability which I directly relate to torque production (within
        > stock rev range). I plan to keep it under 5 grand as I hear that is
        > a good practical limit to keep these engines comfortable but how
        > much torque production do you think this engine can tolerate before
        > it begins breaking stuff. I plan to upgrade head and main studs and
        > will go with somebody's forged rods if there are no cheaper
        > strength interchange rods from another engine? I also plan to o-
        ring
        > the block and weld up some sort of custom steel girdle/side bolt
        > device and accommodating pan. I want to use as much boost as I can
        > make without destroying the engine, what are the practical limits
        of
        > the stock engine, and what levels do you think are possible after
        > correcting any weak points? I was told that the rods/rods bolts
        > would be the first to snap under big torque. If this is corrected
        > and if I can control cap walk how much abuse do you believe the
        > stock crank can endure? Are there any other cranks in between stock
        > and full out custom billet? How strong are the mains and what kind
        > of meat is there for like maybe splayed 4th additions? Has anyone
        > ever blown a cyl wall? I plan to keep the overbore as small as
        > possible for cyl wall strength, I've heard these blocks can be
        > very hard and have very good wear characteristics, is there a
        chance
        > of cleaning up and using stock bore? Would some hardblock help at
        > all, I don't want to do too much as I want to drive it on the
        > street and would like to keep as much water as I can.
        >
        > My next big question is interchange. I plan on probably using a new
        > venture probably 4500 but depending on the durability of the engine
        > just possibly a 5600. Does anyone even know a source for these, 360
        > lbs. is harsh but not intolerable if it can endure massive torque
        > loads that would makeup for its weight. So how can I attach this
        > trans, what flywheels/ clutches will work with this engine? Does it
        > share any other gm bellhousing like maybe an olds and if I were to
        > go auto with a th400 is the stock behind a 500 that's rwd a good
        > core to build on, and what cars have these and which are 425? Are
        > these any different from other 400's and do any other flexplates
        > or starters interchange? Are some blocks better than others if I
        can
        > get pre 73 heads elsewhere or is there a way to check for a good
        > block other than opening it up? How much does mileage generally
        > affect these engines, should I look for a high mile seasoned block
        > or a low wear low mileage one? What other parts if any interchange
        > with any other gm engines? And rods or pistons, I know no
        > crankshafts interchange but are there any year or type cranks that
        > are know to be stronger? Any other little bits or parts, fuel pump,
        > oil pump/filter, water pump or accessories/brackets?
        >
        > I know that's a whole lot of questions but I'm real eager for
        > info, I plan to get the MTS book, any other recommended caddy
        > reading? Any and all answers, opinions or speculation is very
        > appreciated and I am very thankful for any helpful info/experience
        > you may share.
      • James
        Tim, I am no expert, but I do have the 500 mated to a FWD turbo 400 in my motorhome. I believe that everything is shared with the 455 Olds Toronado setup,
        Message 3 of 4 , Aug 13, 2003
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          Tim,
          I am no expert, but I do have the 500 mated to a FWD turbo 400 in my
          motorhome. I believe that everything is shared with the 455 Olds
          Toronado setup, leading me to believe you could use any GM
          olds/buick/chevy/cad trans.
          Enjoy!
          Jim
          --- In
          Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, "timiacobucci"
          <timordog@h...> wrote:
          > Hi everybody, my name is Tim Iacobucci and this is my first post on
          > this board. I haven't been interested in the big cad engines for
          all
          > that long and I wish I knew about them sooner as I really like to
          > research things thoroughly and I have a good knowledge base on
          every
          > engine I've worked on so far but this one. 460 being my first
          > love, sorry to and ford haters out there but I figure the ford vs.
          > chevy thing doesn't really extend to Cadillac and there are
          > probably a good amount of you here that enjoy romping bbc's as
          > much as the 460 crew with our "boat anchors". I haven't
          > had to long to comb the archives here but I can see there are
          > definitely people here with the 500 knowledge I'm looking for.
          >
          > First I guess I should describe my project. I'm setting up 500
          > with 2 grand national tubros carbed to put in an 85 monte carlo.
          > From other message boards I've read a stock 500 makes a g car go
          > 11's, which I can believe if the torque numbers I hear about are
          > realistic. I've heard older closed chamber pre emissions headed
          > 500's were rated at 550 ft. lbs., how true have you all found
          > this to be? I ask because it leads into my next question which is
          > durability which I directly relate to torque production (within
          > stock rev range). I plan to keep it under 5 grand as I hear that is
          > a good practical limit to keep these engines comfortable but how
          > much torque production do you think this engine can tolerate before
          > it begins breaking stuff. I plan to upgrade head and main studs and
          > will go with somebody's forged rods if there are no cheaper
          > strength interchange rods from another engine? I also plan to o-
          ring
          > the block and weld up some sort of custom steel girdle/side bolt
          > device and accommodating pan. I want to use as much boost as I can
          > make without destroying the engine, what are the practical limits
          of
          > the stock engine, and what levels do you think are possible after
          > correcting any weak points? I was told that the rods/rods bolts
          > would be the first to snap under big torque. If this is corrected
          > and if I can control cap walk how much abuse do you believe the
          > stock crank can endure? Are there any other cranks in between stock
          > and full out custom billet? How strong are the mains and what kind
          > of meat is there for like maybe splayed 4th additions? Has anyone
          > ever blown a cyl wall? I plan to keep the overbore as small as
          > possible for cyl wall strength, I've heard these blocks can be
          > very hard and have very good wear characteristics, is there a
          chance
          > of cleaning up and using stock bore? Would some hardblock help at
          > all, I don't want to do too much as I want to drive it on the
          > street and would like to keep as much water as I can.
          >
          > My next big question is interchange. I plan on probably using a new
          > venture probably 4500 but depending on the durability of the engine
          > just possibly a 5600. Does anyone even know a source for these, 360
          > lbs. is harsh but not intolerable if it can endure massive torque
          > loads that would makeup for its weight. So how can I attach this
          > trans, what flywheels/ clutches will work with this engine? Does it
          > share any other gm bellhousing like maybe an olds and if I were to
          > go auto with a th400 is the stock behind a 500 that's rwd a good
          > core to build on, and what cars have these and which are 425? Are
          > these any different from other 400's and do any other flexplates
          > or starters interchange? Are some blocks better than others if I
          can
          > get pre 73 heads elsewhere or is there a way to check for a good
          > block other than opening it up? How much does mileage generally
          > affect these engines, should I look for a high mile seasoned block
          > or a low wear low mileage one? What other parts if any interchange
          > with any other gm engines? And rods or pistons, I know no
          > crankshafts interchange but are there any year or type cranks that
          > are know to be stronger? Any other little bits or parts, fuel pump,
          > oil pump/filter, water pump or accessories/brackets?
          >
          > I know that's a whole lot of questions but I'm real eager for
          > info, I plan to get the MTS book, any other recommended caddy
          > reading? Any and all answers, opinions or speculation is very
          > appreciated and I am very thankful for any helpful info/experience
          > you may share.
        • justinknwh
          Tim, I ve been building 500 s for 7 years now, and though I don tknow everything, I do have quite a bit of education in motor design. Actually I ve been
          Message 4 of 4 , Aug 21, 2007
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            Tim,
            I've been building 500's for 7 years now, and though I don'tknow
            everything, I do have quite a bit of education in motor design.
            Actually I've been putting one together right before I got online.
            As far as putting in main cap reinforments, I see a couple of
            problems. There isn't enough room in the cap it convert to a "4
            bolt" main. I think you would have to "cap" the cap with custom
            machined peice, and I think that would do more harm than good.
            Drilling into the webbing is BAD! Also unlike a lot of engines I've
            seen the caps are machined to slide into the webbing with incredible
            tolerances, this in turn transfering the vast majority of all force
            except absolute vert. into the webbing without stressing the cap
            bolts. The crank itself will prob. take anything you can through at
            it but rpm. If you've pulled the pan and looked at it you would see
            that the bearings are giant, oil passages average, and crank throws
            thick, making a huge peice of FORGED steel. Cadillac wasn't cutting
            corners. The metal they used would rival anything ever made(short
            of aircraft using moly, and a few industrial engines, I've never
            found a better alloyed crank) and the dimensions should be able to
            handle 1000 ft/lbs+ as long as you don't hit the resonance tone.
            This means treat it like a big block, don't rev it ablove 5000/5500,
            MAYBE 6500 if you have it extremely well balanced. These motors get
            a lot of bad publicity for bad rods, in reality its the rod bolts
            that go. Even those that know this usually agrevate it by putting
            in the hardest bolts they can get. Hard bolts BREAK, anealed bolts
            stretch slowly, devleoping increased tolerances, and in extreme
            cases "knock." Remember that it's the exhaust stroke that breaks
            rod bolts, they have to stop the piston, and F=MV^2, so again if you
            keep the rpms the 5000 like you said you plan the stcokers will take
            more than you think, again caddy didn't scrimp. I take that back,
            there rocker assembly is junk. You need to change the springs
            atleased , should change the rockers to. They can hardly take the
            stock specs.
            As far as block wear, the block can be polished and bored to 500,000
            miles easy. I've pulled apart motors with 100,000 mile on them that
            have measured out on the tight side of factory specs. Again this
            comes from the alloys, more nickle than you would probably believe
            (just don't tell the scrap mongers, they aren't making any more of
            these you know).
            If you are running a lot of boost and plan on driving this thing
            around (pump gas would nice/aka cheap) I'd recomend running the
            early pistons with the late heads resulting in about 7/1 static
            compression, allowing a good share of boost and still staying in a
            reasonable final comression range for 92 octane, but resulting in
            and effective increase in air/fuel being burned. Basically trick it
            into thinking its bigger than it is.
            For trans, I believe all gm EXCEPT chevy will fit, but the TH400
            behind it is as good as they come. A caddy fleetwood 75 weight is
            6,000 lbs empty, throw in the 9 passengers they were made for, and
            the 525 ft/lbs of torque, a lead foot, and 100,000 miles these could
            easily do, and it doesn't take and engineer to tell you they are
            tough. If you must change it go to www.cad500parts.com they will
            have all you need. I've got parts from them since 2000, when they
            were cadillac motorsport development, and they've always treated me
            good.
            As far as differences is the block, unless you get a pre-500 472,
            there are the same. I've heard you have to do some notching in
            those blocks if you want to put in a 500 crank, but I've never run
            into one. I'm sure you also know that if you just put early heads
            on late pistons (depending on the cam you run you might have to
            relieve the pistons) you can get into the range of 13/1 compression
            on the cheap without turbos.
            I'd be happy to answer any questions you have, but i just opened
            this e-mail to repond, please email at Justinknwh@....
            As a last note I would upgrade the rockers/cam, three angle the
            valves, port a set of late heads, put them on an early block, HEI
            the ignition, boost it good and run the TH400 with a shift kit/tall
            rear gears, and hope the tires are speed rated, and the suspension
            can handle well up to the speed the car leaves the ground. good luck
            and drive well.









            --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, "James"
            <jhbrad@...> wrote:
            >
            > Tim,
            > I am no expert, but I do have the 500 mated to a FWD turbo 400 in
            my
            > motorhome. I believe that everything is shared with the 455 Olds
            > Toronado setup, leading me to believe you could use any GM
            > olds/buick/chevy/cad trans.
            > Enjoy!
            > Jim
            > --- In
            > Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, "timiacobucci"
            > <timordog@h...> wrote:
            > > Hi everybody, my name is Tim Iacobucci and this is my first post
            on
            > > this board. I haven't been interested in the big cad engines for
            > all
            > > that long and I wish I knew about them sooner as I really like
            to
            > > research things thoroughly and I have a good knowledge base on
            > every
            > > engine I've worked on so far but this one. 460 being my first
            > > love, sorry to and ford haters out there but I figure the ford
            vs.
            > > chevy thing doesn't really extend to Cadillac and there are
            > > probably a good amount of you here that enjoy romping bbc's as
            > > much as the 460 crew with our "boat anchors". I haven't
            > > had to long to comb the archives here but I can see there are
            > > definitely people here with the 500 knowledge I'm looking for.
            > >
            > > First I guess I should describe my project. I'm setting up 500
            > > with 2 grand national tubros carbed to put in an 85 monte carlo.
            > > From other message boards I've read a stock 500 makes a g car go
            > > 11's, which I can believe if the torque numbers I hear about are
            > > realistic. I've heard older closed chamber pre emissions headed
            > > 500's were rated at 550 ft. lbs., how true have you all found
            > > this to be? I ask because it leads into my next question which
            is
            > > durability which I directly relate to torque production (within
            > > stock rev range). I plan to keep it under 5 grand as I hear that
            is
            > > a good practical limit to keep these engines comfortable but how
            > > much torque production do you think this engine can tolerate
            before
            > > it begins breaking stuff. I plan to upgrade head and main studs
            and
            > > will go with somebody's forged rods if there are no cheaper
            > > strength interchange rods from another engine? I also plan to o-
            > ring
            > > the block and weld up some sort of custom steel girdle/side bolt
            > > device and accommodating pan. I want to use as much boost as I
            can
            > > make without destroying the engine, what are the practical
            limits
            > of
            > > the stock engine, and what levels do you think are possible
            after
            > > correcting any weak points? I was told that the rods/rods bolts
            > > would be the first to snap under big torque. If this is
            corrected
            > > and if I can control cap walk how much abuse do you believe the
            > > stock crank can endure? Are there any other cranks in between
            stock
            > > and full out custom billet? How strong are the mains and what
            kind
            > > of meat is there for like maybe splayed 4th additions? Has
            anyone
            > > ever blown a cyl wall? I plan to keep the overbore as small as
            > > possible for cyl wall strength, I've heard these blocks can be
            > > very hard and have very good wear characteristics, is there a
            > chance
            > > of cleaning up and using stock bore? Would some hardblock help
            at
            > > all, I don't want to do too much as I want to drive it on the
            > > street and would like to keep as much water as I can.
            > >
            > > My next big question is interchange. I plan on probably using a
            new
            > > venture probably 4500 but depending on the durability of the
            engine
            > > just possibly a 5600. Does anyone even know a source for these,
            360
            > > lbs. is harsh but not intolerable if it can endure massive
            torque
            > > loads that would makeup for its weight. So how can I attach this
            > > trans, what flywheels/ clutches will work with this engine? Does
            it
            > > share any other gm bellhousing like maybe an olds and if I were
            to
            > > go auto with a th400 is the stock behind a 500 that's rwd a
            good
            > > core to build on, and what cars have these and which are 425?
            Are
            > > these any different from other 400's and do any other flexplates
            > > or starters interchange? Are some blocks better than others if I
            > can
            > > get pre 73 heads elsewhere or is there a way to check for a good
            > > block other than opening it up? How much does mileage generally
            > > affect these engines, should I look for a high mile seasoned
            block
            > > or a low wear low mileage one? What other parts if any
            interchange
            > > with any other gm engines? And rods or pistons, I know no
            > > crankshafts interchange but are there any year or type cranks
            that
            > > are know to be stronger? Any other little bits or parts, fuel
            pump,
            > > oil pump/filter, water pump or accessories/brackets?
            > >
            > > I know that's a whole lot of questions but I'm real eager for
            > > info, I plan to get the MTS book, any other recommended caddy
            > > reading? Any and all answers, opinions or speculation is very
            > > appreciated and I am very thankful for any helpful
            info/experience
            > > you may share.
            >
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