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Re: Engine/drivetrain list

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  • Paul Angel
    ... over ... such as ... adapt ... car you ... *************** Yeah, it s kinda a mid-rear engine car. I consider a rear engine car to have the entire engine
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 18, 2005
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      --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, joe4@D...
      wrote:
      >
      > > All that makes a lot of sense. The reason I was asking, is there
      > > seems to be no mid-engine manual options that places the engine
      over
      > > the transaxle (with the exception of *very* expensive exotics
      such as
      > > Lambos). The manual would also weigh less than the auto & I can
      adapt
      > > a small-block to it.
      > *****
      > Well, The way I see it, If you plop a THM425 into the back of a
      car you
      > end up with a rear engined car, not a mid engined car.
      ***************
      Yeah, it's kinda a mid-rear engine car. I consider a rear engine car
      to have the entire engine behind the transmission, like Porsche &
      Corvair.


      If I jack up my
      > Mazdaillac just in front of a rear wheel it lifts the whole side.
      The output
      > shaft goes right under the second main bearing, so you have a
      little more
      > than half the engine, all the transmission and most of the diff
      behind the
      > axle. You can angle the axle shafts back as much as 25° (assuming
      you don't
      > want rear steering :-) but I don't think you will actually get much
      of the
      > weight onto the front axle. All this is mute if space constraints
      keep the
      > engine pretty much over the axle.
      > ***
      > > As I mentioned before, I'm seeking alternatives for several
      projects.
      > > One I'm currently gathering parts for (& have started some of the
      > > work) is a mid-engine VW Cabriolet. I was originally thinking of
      > > using Fiero running gear (& may still) & either an LT1 ('95 which
      I
      > > have) or a 300HP 283 (which I also have). But I would rather do a
      V8
      > > longitudinaly, as long as I can keep it manual (with a clutch) so
      I
      > > can build it up as a roadracer-type machine.
      > > Also, some of the other projects include an '88 Fiero automatic
      (in
      > > which I'm leaning towards a Caddy 4.9 & 4-speed auto), & a
      Ferrari-
      > > bodied '86 Fiero (which I would like to also have a longitudinal
      V8).
      > > I don't mind adapting a small-block to an automatic transaxle for
      > > that one, if I can make it fit within a 3" stretched Fiero. It's
      just
      > > in the thinking about it stage right now, but I *do* have the
      car, &
      > > am talking to a guy about trading me the body kit to build one
      for
      > > him.
      > > Thanks,
      > ****
      > Well, geez, if you're just talking small blocks then torque
      shouldn't be
      > a big problem. If you have room for putting the engine in front of
      the axle
      > (I've never taken a close look at a fiero engine compartment, but I
      know
      > people like the transverse caddy setups for them, so it must be
      small) then you could think
      > about the transaxle from the back of a modern corvette, you could
      look at
      > late '90s mopars (I don't know that there is a manual, but there is
      a
      > chance, and it is a strange enough setup it's just fun to look at)
      There
      > were kits to put V8s in corvairs that used the stock trans, just
      rotated
      > 180° (I don't know how that works out direction-wise; they may have
      had to
      > make the engine run backwards, or something...) and you can always
      just put
      > a diff on a RWD trans where the tailshaft used to be...
      >
      > I kinda think space will be the biggest problem, so it may be
      time for a
      > trip to the junkyard with your trusty tape measure.
      *************
      Yeah; nothing fits that has the engine in front of the drive axle (in
      either car). I don't think a 36" stretched Fiero with a 33" stretched
      Ferrari body is what I'm looking for.


      >
      > ...I just thought of the subarus. the center and front diffs
      are in the
      > trans case, so if you fix the center diff it should do what you
      want. The
      > stock engine has been known to break the stock trans, but there is
      a place
      > that makes stronger gears for only ~$2500.
      **********
      My entire budget for the drivetrain will be far less than that. I'm
      an artist, & a poor one at that.




      Then if you ever wanted to add
      > another axle and have a 4X6 it'd be easy. [*Smile*] ...you could
      do the
      > same thing with other 4WD/AWD setups, and it would give you some
      flexabilty,
      > the tradoff is moving the engine weight higher.
      >
      > ...Are you sure you don't want to build a cad engine with 700+
      ft/lbs
      > and not worry about this shifting stuff? It is fun to drive a 5200
      pound
      > vehicle that can spin it's front wheels...
      ***************
      Just don't want an automatic in the VW - not the thing for
      a "roadracer". I might would consider it for the Ferrari-bodied car,
      but really don't want the weight - it won't handle nearly as well.
      None of these will be FWD.
      On a side note, I'm thinking of using Brat running gear in my VW baja
      bug, using the VW engine in it's normal location. I'm running gear
      reduction boxes that reverse the rotation of the rear drive shafts,
      so all I would have to do is mount the front diff. upside down. BTW
      when using a transaxle such as a corvair in a mid-engine, you reverse
      the side the ring gear is on.


      >
      > > ~ Paul
      > > aka "Tha Driver"
      >
      > > Easy on the Giggle Cream!
      >
      >
      >
      > Joe Hamlin '78 Eldo Biarritz
    • John Brody
      FYI FWD Audis from the early 80 s on were front engine, front-drive with (I believe) a longitudinal transmission that came in a manual. Move the entire
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 18, 2005
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        FYI FWD Audis from the early 80's on were front engine, front-drive
        with (I believe) a longitudinal transmission that came in a manual.
        Move the entire drive-train to the back of a car and you've got a
        sweet mid-engine rear-drive manual setup. I believe I have seen
        websites where people adapted other engines to the Audi trans and
        beefed up the internals, but I don't remember where right now. That
        would save you the trouble of having to deal with fixing the center
        diff of a 4WD Subaru -- although the Audis did come in 4WD as well,
        they also came in 2WD.

        John



        On 4/18/05, Paul Angel <imthadriver@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com,
        > joe4@D...
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > > All that makes a lot of sense. The reason I was asking, is there
        > > > seems to be no mid-engine manual options that places the engine
        > over
        > > > the transaxle (with the exception of *very* expensive exotics
        > such as
        > > > Lambos). The manual would also weigh less than the auto & I can
        > adapt
        > > > a small-block to it.
        > > *****
        > > Well, The way I see it, If you plop a THM425 into the back of a
        > car you
        > > end up with a rear engined car, not a mid engined car.
        > ***************
        > Yeah, it's kinda a mid-rear engine car. I consider a rear engine car
        > to have the entire engine behind the transmission, like Porsche &
        > Corvair.
        >
        >
        >
        > If I jack up my
        > > Mazdaillac just in front of a rear wheel it lifts the whole side.
        > The output
        > > shaft goes right under the second main bearing, so you have a
        > little more
        > > than half the engine, all the transmission and most of the diff
        > behind the
        > > axle. You can angle the axle shafts back as much as 25° (assuming
        > you don't
        > > want rear steering :-) but I don't think you will actually get much
        > of the
        > > weight onto the front axle. All this is mute if space constraints
        > keep the
        > > engine pretty much over the axle.
        > > ***
        > > > As I mentioned before, I'm seeking alternatives for several
        > projects.
        > > > One I'm currently gathering parts for (& have started some of the
        > > > work) is a mid-engine VW Cabriolet. I was originally thinking of
        > > > using Fiero running gear (& may still) & either an LT1 ('95 which
        > I
        > > > have) or a 300HP 283 (which I also have). But I would rather do a
        > V8
        > > > longitudinaly, as long as I can keep it manual (with a clutch) so
        > I
        > > > can build it up as a roadracer-type machine.
        > > > Also, some of the other projects include an '88 Fiero automatic
        > (in
        > > > which I'm leaning towards a Caddy 4.9 & 4-speed auto), & a
        > Ferrari-
        > > > bodied '86 Fiero (which I would like to also have a longitudinal
        > V8).
        > > > I don't mind adapting a small-block to an automatic transaxle for
        > > > that one, if I can make it fit within a 3" stretched Fiero. It's
        > just
        > > > in the thinking about it stage right now, but I *do* have the
        > car, &
        > > > am talking to a guy about trading me the body kit to build one
        > for
        > > > him.
        > > > Thanks,
        > > ****
        > > Well, geez, if you're just talking small blocks then torque
        > shouldn't be
        > > a big problem. If you have room for putting the engine in front of
        > the axle
        > > (I've never taken a close look at a fiero engine compartment, but I
        > know
        > > people like the transverse caddy setups for them, so it must be
        > small) then you could think
        > > about the transaxle from the back of a modern corvette, you could
        > look at
        > > late '90s mopars (I don't know that there is a manual, but there is
        > a
        > > chance, and it is a strange enough setup it's just fun to look at)
        > There
        > > were kits to put V8s in corvairs that used the stock trans, just
        > rotated
        > > 180° (I don't know how that works out direction-wise; they may have
        > had to
        > > make the engine run backwards, or something...) and you can always
        > just put
        > > a diff on a RWD trans where the tailshaft used to be...
        > >
        > > I kinda think space will be the biggest problem, so it may be
        > time for a
        > > trip to the junkyard with your trusty tape measure.
        > *************
        > Yeah; nothing fits that has the engine in front of the drive axle (in
        > either car). I don't think a 36" stretched Fiero with a 33" stretched
        > Ferrari body is what I'm looking for.
        >
        >
        > >
        > > ...I just thought of the subarus. the center and front diffs
        > are in the
        > > trans case, so if you fix the center diff it should do what you
        > want. The
        > > stock engine has been known to break the stock trans, but there is
        > a place
        > > that makes stronger gears for only ~$2500.
        > **********
        > My entire budget for the drivetrain will be far less than that. I'm
        > an artist, & a poor one at that.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Then if you ever wanted to add
        > > another axle and have a 4X6 it'd be easy. [*Smile*] ...you could
        > do the
        > > same thing with other 4WD/AWD setups, and it would give you some
        > flexabilty,
        > > the tradoff is moving the engine weight higher.
        > >
        > > ...Are you sure you don't want to build a cad engine with 700+
        > ft/lbs
        > > and not worry about this shifting stuff? It is fun to drive a 5200
        > pound
        > > vehicle that can spin it's front wheels...
        > ***************
        > Just don't want an automatic in the VW - not the thing for
        > a "roadracer". I might would consider it for the Ferrari-bodied car,
        > but really don't want the weight - it won't handle nearly as well.
        > None of these will be FWD.
        > On a side note, I'm thinking of using Brat running gear in my VW baja
        > bug, using the VW engine in it's normal location. I'm running gear
        > reduction boxes that reverse the rotation of the rear drive shafts,
        > so all I would have to do is mount the front diff. upside down. BTW
        > when using a transaxle such as a corvair in a mid-engine, you reverse
        > the side the ring gear is on.
        >
        >
        > >
        > > > ~ Paul
        > > > aka "Tha Driver"
        > >
        > > > Easy on the Giggle Cream!
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Joe Hamlin '78 Eldo Biarritz
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cadillac_Performance_Association/
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > Cadillac_Performance_Association-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      • Paul Angel
        ... **************** Haven t been able to find a reasonably priced Audi transaxle. I think I could use that in the VW Cabriolet, though; but I don t think
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 18, 2005
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          --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, John Brody
          <jbrody@g...> wrote:
          > FYI FWD Audis from the early 80's on were front engine, front-drive
          > with (I believe) a longitudinal transmission that came in a manual.
          > Move the entire drive-train to the back of a car and you've got a
          > sweet mid-engine rear-drive manual setup. I believe I have seen
          > websites where people adapted other engines to the Audi trans and
          > beefed up the internals, but I don't remember where right now. That
          > would save you the trouble of having to deal with fixing the center
          > diff of a 4WD Subaru -- although the Audis did come in 4WD as well,
          > they also came in 2WD.
          >
          > John
          ****************
          Haven't been able to find a reasonably priced Audi transaxle. I think
          I could use that in the VW Cabriolet, though; but I don't think there
          is enough room in the Fiero. The Audi parts seem to be gold...
          ~ Paul
          aka "Tha Driver"

          Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*!












          >
          >
          >
          > On 4/18/05, Paul Angel <imthadriver@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > > --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com,
          > > joe4@D...
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > > All that makes a lot of sense. The reason I was asking, is
          there
          > > > > seems to be no mid-engine manual options that places the
          engine
          > > over
          > > > > the transaxle (with the exception of *very* expensive exotics
          > > such as
          > > > > Lambos). The manual would also weigh less than the auto & I
          can
          > > adapt
          > > > > a small-block to it.
          > > > *****
          > > > Well, The way I see it, If you plop a THM425 into the back
          of a
          > > car you
          > > > end up with a rear engined car, not a mid engined car.
          > > ***************
          > > Yeah, it's kinda a mid-rear engine car. I consider a rear engine
          car
          > > to have the entire engine behind the transmission, like Porsche &
          > > Corvair.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > If I jack up my
          > > > Mazdaillac just in front of a rear wheel it lifts the whole
          side.
          > > The output
          > > > shaft goes right under the second main bearing, so you have a
          > > little more
          > > > than half the engine, all the transmission and most of the diff
          > > behind the
          > > > axle. You can angle the axle shafts back as much as 25°
          (assuming
          > > you don't
          > > > want rear steering :-) but I don't think you will actually get
          much
          > > of the
          > > > weight onto the front axle. All this is mute if space
          constraints
          > > keep the
          > > > engine pretty much over the axle.
          > > > ***
          > > > > As I mentioned before, I'm seeking alternatives for several
          > > projects.
          > > > > One I'm currently gathering parts for (& have started some of
          the
          > > > > work) is a mid-engine VW Cabriolet. I was originally thinking
          of
          > > > > using Fiero running gear (& may still) & either an LT1 ('95
          which
          > > I
          > > > > have) or a 300HP 283 (which I also have). But I would rather
          do a
          > > V8
          > > > > longitudinaly, as long as I can keep it manual (with a
          clutch) so
          > > I
          > > > > can build it up as a roadracer-type machine.
          > > > > Also, some of the other projects include an '88 Fiero
          automatic
          > > (in
          > > > > which I'm leaning towards a Caddy 4.9 & 4-speed auto), & a
          > > Ferrari-
          > > > > bodied '86 Fiero (which I would like to also have a
          longitudinal
          > > V8).
          > > > > I don't mind adapting a small-block to an automatic transaxle
          for
          > > > > that one, if I can make it fit within a 3" stretched Fiero.
          It's
          > > just
          > > > > in the thinking about it stage right now, but I *do* have the
          > > car, &
          > > > > am talking to a guy about trading me the body kit to build
          one
          > > for
          > > > > him.
          > > > > Thanks,
          > > > ****
          > > > Well, geez, if you're just talking small blocks then torque
          > > shouldn't be
          > > > a big problem. If you have room for putting the engine in front
          of
          > > the axle
          > > > (I've never taken a close look at a fiero engine compartment,
          but I
          > > know
          > > > people like the transverse caddy setups for them, so it must be
          > > small) then you could think
          > > > about the transaxle from the back of a modern corvette, you
          could
          > > look at
          > > > late '90s mopars (I don't know that there is a manual, but
          there is
          > > a
          > > > chance, and it is a strange enough setup it's just fun to look
          at)
          > > There
          > > > were kits to put V8s in corvairs that used the stock trans,
          just
          > > rotated
          > > > 180° (I don't know how that works out direction-wise; they may
          have
          > > had to
          > > > make the engine run backwards, or something...) and you can
          always
          > > just put
          > > > a diff on a RWD trans where the tailshaft used to be...
          > > >
          > > > I kinda think space will be the biggest problem, so it may
          be
          > > time for a
          > > > trip to the junkyard with your trusty tape measure.
          > > *************
          > > Yeah; nothing fits that has the engine in front of the drive axle
          (in
          > > either car). I don't think a 36" stretched Fiero with a 33"
          stretched
          > > Ferrari body is what I'm looking for.
          > >
          > >
          > > >
          > > > ...I just thought of the subarus. the center and front
          diffs
          > > are in the
          > > > trans case, so if you fix the center diff it should do what you
          > > want. The
          > > > stock engine has been known to break the stock trans, but there
          is
          > > a place
          > > > that makes stronger gears for only ~$2500.
          > > **********
          > > My entire budget for the drivetrain will be far less than that.
          I'm
          > > an artist, & a poor one at that.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Then if you ever wanted to add
          > > > another axle and have a 4X6 it'd be easy. [*Smile*] ...you
          could
          > > do the
          > > > same thing with other 4WD/AWD setups, and it would give you
          some
          > > flexabilty,
          > > > the tradoff is moving the engine weight higher.
          > > >
          > > > ...Are you sure you don't want to build a cad engine with
          700+
          > > ft/lbs
          > > > and not worry about this shifting stuff? It is fun to drive a
          5200
          > > pound
          > > > vehicle that can spin it's front wheels...
          > > ***************
          > > Just don't want an automatic in the VW - not the thing for
          > > a "roadracer". I might would consider it for the Ferrari-bodied
          car,
          > > but really don't want the weight - it won't handle nearly as
          well.
          > > None of these will be FWD.
          > > On a side note, I'm thinking of using Brat running gear in my VW
          baja
          > > bug, using the VW engine in it's normal location. I'm running
          gear
          > > reduction boxes that reverse the rotation of the rear drive
          shafts,
          > > so all I would have to do is mount the front diff. upside down.
          BTW
          > > when using a transaxle such as a corvair in a mid-engine, you
          reverse
          > > the side the ring gear is on.
          > >
          > >
          > > >
          > > > > ~ Paul
          > > > > aka "Tha Driver"
          > > >
          > > > > Easy on the Giggle Cream!
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Joe Hamlin '78 Eldo Biarritz
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ________________________________
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cadillac_Performance_Association/
          > >
          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > Cadillac_Performance_Association-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          Service.
        • William Lucke
          The transverse automatics have a chain drive from the pump to the transmission, then a planetary final. Transverse manuals have spur gear final drive Either
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 19, 2005
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            The transverse automatics have a chain drive from the pump to the
            transmission, then a planetary final.
            Transverse manuals have spur gear final drive
            Either way, they avoid the drivetrain loss of a hypoid bevel final drive.

            Which Ferarri body?
            Dino 246, Ferarri 308 and 328 were all transverse
            As was the Lamborghini Jalpa (and maybe the Miura, not sure), as well as
            the Cizeta Moroder V16T (transverse V16 based on two Lambo Urago V8's put
            together)
            And my Northstar Fiero with HM282 five speed. It ran 12's on the stock
            engine. It will be back on the road after performance build soon.
            I think that the transverse approach IS artful for the reasons I already
            mentioned... the transmission is simpler, smaller and lighter and more
            efficient. Mechanical art and elegant design.


            Will


            > From: "Paul Angel" <imthadriver@...>
            >Subject: Re: Engine/drivetrain list
            >
            >
            >--- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, William
            >Lucke <william.lucke@h...> wrote:
            > > Why are you determined to have a longitudinal transmission in these
            > > applications?
            > >
            > > Transverse manuals are lighter and more compact and have less
            >drivetrain
            > > loss (spur gear final drive instead of hypoid bevel).
            > >
            > >
            > > Will
            >**********
            >Well, I'm an artist, first of all. Cars are my medium. I just think
            >they will look better, the weight will be more balanced, & in the
            >case of the Ferrari-bodied Fiero, look more like it's supposed to. I
            >don't know of any exotic (except the Fiero :-) that has a transverse
            >engine.
            >Spur gear? I thought they were chain drive...(not that it matters).
            >~ Paul
            >aka "Tha Driver"
            >
            >Easy on the Giggle Cream!



            --
            No virus found in this outgoing message.
            Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
            Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.17 - Release Date: 4/19/2005
          • Paul Angel
            ... drive. ... well as ... V8 s put ... stock ... already ... more ... ************* Really? Never noticed that. The guy I m talking to has the 355 Ferrari;
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 19, 2005
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              --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, William
              Lucke <william.lucke@h...> wrote:
              > The transverse automatics have a chain drive from the pump to the
              > transmission, then a planetary final.
              > Transverse manuals have spur gear final drive
              > Either way, they avoid the drivetrain loss of a hypoid bevel final
              drive.
              >
              > Which Ferarri body?
              > Dino 246, Ferarri 308 and 328 were all transverse
              > As was the Lamborghini Jalpa (and maybe the Miura, not sure), as
              well as
              > the Cizeta Moroder V16T (transverse V16 based on two Lambo Urago
              V8's put
              > together)
              > And my Northstar Fiero with HM282 five speed. It ran 12's on the
              stock
              > engine. It will be back on the road after performance build soon.
              > I think that the transverse approach IS artful for the reasons I
              already
              > mentioned... the transmission is simpler, smaller and lighter and
              more
              > efficient. Mechanical art and elegant design.
              >
              >
              > Will
              *************
              Really? Never noticed that. The guy I'm talking to has the 355
              Ferrari; They're longitudinal V8s, Right?
              But strickly as art, the tranverse setups just don't appeal to me.
              I'm very eccentric, you know. (I'm an artist :-D
              ~ Paul
              aka "Tha Driver"

              Easy on the Giggle Cream!









              >
              >
              > > From: "Paul Angel" <imthadriver@y...>
              > >Subject: Re: Engine/drivetrain list
              > >
              > >
              > >--- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, William
              > >Lucke <william.lucke@h...> wrote:
              > > > Why are you determined to have a longitudinal transmission in
              these
              > > > applications?
              > > >
              > > > Transverse manuals are lighter and more compact and have less
              > >drivetrain
              > > > loss (spur gear final drive instead of hypoid bevel).
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Will
              > >**********
              > >Well, I'm an artist, first of all. Cars are my medium. I just think
              > >they will look better, the weight will be more balanced, & in the
              > >case of the Ferrari-bodied Fiero, look more like it's supposed to.
              I
              > >don't know of any exotic (except the Fiero :-) that has a
              transverse
              > >engine.
              > >Spur gear? I thought they were chain drive...(not that it matters).
              > >~ Paul
              > >aka "Tha Driver"
              > >
              > >Easy on the Giggle Cream!
              >
              >
              >
              > --
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