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Re: Engine/drivetrain list

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  • Paul Angel
    ... That s ... 500ft/lbs ... stuffed into, ... pickup) ... fussy ... make power ... getting close ... torque while ... wheelies. You ... anyway. ... manual ...
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 17, 2005
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      --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, joe4@D...
      wrote:
      >
      > As far as I know there is no manual counterpart to the THM425.
      That's
      > the trans that makes all this fun. Stock they can handle more than
      500ft/lbs
      > of torque, and the whole package is still small enough to be
      stuffed into,
      > say, the back seat of a yugo (or in my project, the back of a mazda
      pickup)
      >
      > This really isn't the drivetrain I'd pick for a small nimble
      fussy
      > sports car. For that you want something small and light that can
      make power
      > by spinning fast. A Cad 500 (or Olds 455) and THM425 combo is
      getting close
      > to half a ton. But they are reliable and cheap and can make big
      torque while
      > getting decent milage. So put it in something that wants to do
      wheelies. You
      > don't want to bother shifting when the front end is up in the air,
      anyway.
      >
      > Really it shouldn't be too hard to set up a THM425 for full
      manual
      > control, if it would feel better for you.
      >
      > ...if you are not thinking big torque you might find something
      in a late
      > 90's mopar. And there's always the rear engined sports cars.
      >
      > Good Luck!
      ****************
      All that makes a lot of sense. The reason I was asking, is there
      seems to be no mid-engine manual options that places the engine over
      the transaxle (with the exception of *very* expensive exotics such as
      Lambos). The manual would also weigh less than the auto & I can adapt
      a small-block to it.
      As I mentioned before, I'm seeking alternatives for several projects.
      One I'm currently gathering parts for (& have started some of the
      work) is a mid-engine VW Cabriolet. I was originally thinking of
      using Fiero running gear (& may still) & either an LT1 ('95 which I
      have) or a 300HP 283 (which I also have). But I would rather do a V8
      longitudinaly, as long as I can keep it manual (with a clutch) so I
      can build it up as a roadracer-type machine.
      Also, some of the other projects include an '88 Fiero automatic (in
      which I'm leaning towards a Caddy 4.9 & 4-speed auto), & a Ferrari-
      bodied '86 Fiero (which I would like to also have a longitudinal V8).
      I don't mind adapting a small-block to an automatic transaxle for
      that one, if I can make it fit within a 3" stretched Fiero. It's just
      in the thinking about it stage right now, but I *do* have the car, &
      am talking to a guy about trading me the body kit to build one for
      him.
      Thanks,
      ~ Paul
      aka "Tha Driver"

      Easy on the Giggle Cream!







      >
      >
      > > One more question: was there ever a 4 or 5-speed (manual)
      > > longitudinal trans in the FWD Caddies?
      > > Thanks again,
      > > ~ Paul
      > > aka "Tha Driver"
      >
      > > Easy on the Giggle Cream!
      >
      > Joe Hamlin '78 Eldo Biarritz
    • RGermain
      Maybe someplace like Advance adapters has what you need??? ... That s ... 500ft/lbs ... stuffed into, ... pickup) ... fussy ... make power ... getting close
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 17, 2005
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        Maybe someplace like Advance adapters has what you need???

        Paul Angel <imthadriver@...> wrote:

        --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, joe4@D...
        wrote:
        >
        >     As far as I know there is no manual counterpart to the THM425.
        That's
        > the trans that makes all this fun. Stock they can handle more than
        500ft/lbs
        > of torque, and the whole package is still small enough to be
        stuffed into,
        > say, the back seat of a yugo (or in my project, the back of a mazda
        pickup)
        >
        >     This really isn't the drivetrain I'd pick for a small nimble
        fussy
        > sports car. For that you want something small and light that can
        make power
        > by spinning fast. A Cad 500 (or Olds 455) and THM425 combo is
        getting close
        > to half a ton. But they are reliable and cheap and can make big
        torque while
        > getting decent milage. So put it in something that wants to do
        wheelies. You
        > don't want to bother shifting when the front end is up in the air,
        anyway.
        >
        >     Really it shouldn't be too hard to set up a THM425 for full
        manual
        > control, if it would feel better for you.
        >
        >     ...if you are not thinking big torque you might find something
        in a late
        > 90's mopar. And there's always the rear engined sports cars.
        >
        > Good Luck!
        ****************
        All that makes a lot of sense. The reason I was asking, is there
        seems to be no mid-engine manual options that places the engine over
        the transaxle (with the exception of *very* expensive exotics such as
        Lambos). The manual would also weigh less than the auto & I can adapt
        a small-block to it.
        As I mentioned before, I'm seeking alternatives for several projects.
        One I'm currently gathering parts for (& have started some of the
        work) is a mid-engine VW Cabriolet. I was originally thinking of
        using Fiero running gear (& may still) & either an LT1 ('95 which I
        have) or a 300HP 283 (which I also have). But I would rather do a V8
        longitudinaly, as long as I can keep it manual (with a clutch) so I
        can build it up as a roadracer-type machine.
        Also,  some of the other projects include an '88 Fiero automatic (in
        which I'm leaning towards a Caddy 4.9 & 4-speed auto), & a Ferrari-
        bodied '86 Fiero (which I would like to also have a longitudinal V8).
        I don't mind adapting a small-block to an automatic transaxle for
        that one, if I can make it fit within a 3" stretched Fiero. It's just
        in the thinking about it stage right now, but I *do* have the car, &
        am talking to a guy about trading me the body kit to build one for
        him.
        Thanks,
        ~ Paul
        aka "Tha Driver"

        Easy on the Giggle Cream!







        >
        >
        > > One more question: was there ever a 4 or 5-speed (manual)
        > > longitudinal trans in the FWD Caddies?
        > > Thanks again,
        > > ~ Paul
        > > aka "Tha Driver"
        >
        > > Easy on the Giggle Cream!
        >
        > Joe Hamlin '78 Eldo Biarritz





      • Paul Angel
        ... *********** Adaptors are not a problem. You can find most anything, & if not I can make one (or have it made if need be). The problem is finding a
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 17, 2005
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          --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, RGermain
          <rich_germain@y...> wrote:
          > Maybe someplace like Advance adapters has what you need???
          ***********
          Adaptors are not a problem. You can find most anything, & if not I
          can make one (or have it made if need be).
          The problem is finding a transaxle I can use with very little
          money. :-p Thus the reason for determining every possibility &
          option in order to keep an eye out for the right car/deal.
          And of course finding the manual trans that fits longitudinaly in a
          tight space - that's the biggest challenge.
          ~ Paul
          aka "Tha Driver"

          Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*!







          >
          > Paul Angel <imthadriver@y...> wrote:
          > --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, joe4@D...
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > As far as I know there is no manual counterpart to the
          THM425.
          > That's
          > > the trans that makes all this fun. Stock they can handle more
          than
          > 500ft/lbs
          > > of torque, and the whole package is still small enough to be
          > stuffed into,
          > > say, the back seat of a yugo (or in my project, the back of a
          mazda
          > pickup)
          > >
          > > This really isn't the drivetrain I'd pick for a small nimble
          > fussy
          > > sports car. For that you want something small and light that can
          > make power
          > > by spinning fast. A Cad 500 (or Olds 455) and THM425 combo is
          > getting close
          > > to half a ton. But they are reliable and cheap and can make big
          > torque while
          > > getting decent milage. So put it in something that wants to do
          > wheelies. You
          > > don't want to bother shifting when the front end is up in the
          air,
          > anyway.
          > >
          > > Really it shouldn't be too hard to set up a THM425 for full
          > manual
          > > control, if it would feel better for you.
          > >
          > > ...if you are not thinking big torque you might find
          something
          > in a late
          > > 90's mopar. And there's always the rear engined sports cars.
          > >
          > > Good Luck!
          > ****************
          > All that makes a lot of sense. The reason I was asking, is there
          > seems to be no mid-engine manual options that places the engine
          over
          > the transaxle (with the exception of *very* expensive exotics such
          as
          > Lambos). The manual would also weigh less than the auto & I can
          adapt
          > a small-block to it.
          > As I mentioned before, I'm seeking alternatives for several
          projects.
          > One I'm currently gathering parts for (& have started some of the
          > work) is a mid-engine VW Cabriolet. I was originally thinking of
          > using Fiero running gear (& may still) & either an LT1 ('95 which I
          > have) or a 300HP 283 (which I also have). But I would rather do a
          V8
          > longitudinaly, as long as I can keep it manual (with a clutch) so I
          > can build it up as a roadracer-type machine.
          > Also, some of the other projects include an '88 Fiero automatic
          (in
          > which I'm leaning towards a Caddy 4.9 & 4-speed auto), & a Ferrari-
          > bodied '86 Fiero (which I would like to also have a longitudinal
          V8).
          > I don't mind adapting a small-block to an automatic transaxle for
          > that one, if I can make it fit within a 3" stretched Fiero. It's
          just
          > in the thinking about it stage right now, but I *do* have the car,
          &
          > am talking to a guy about trading me the body kit to build one for
          > him.
          > Thanks,
          > ~ Paul
          > aka "Tha Driver"
          >
          > Easy on the Giggle Cream!
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > > One more question: was there ever a 4 or 5-speed (manual)
          > > > longitudinal trans in the FWD Caddies?
          > > > Thanks again,
          > > > ~ Paul
          > > > aka "Tha Driver"
          > >
          > > > Easy on the Giggle Cream!
          > >
          > > Joe Hamlin '78 Eldo Biarritz
        • William Lucke
          Why are you determined to have a longitudinal transmission in these applications? Transverse manuals are lighter and more compact and have less drivetrain loss
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 18, 2005
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            Why are you determined to have a longitudinal transmission in these
            applications?

            Transverse manuals are lighter and more compact and have less drivetrain
            loss (spur gear final drive instead of hypoid bevel).


            Will



            > From: "Paul Angel" <imthadriver@...>
            >Subject: Re: Engine/drivetrain list

            >All that makes a lot of sense. The reason I was asking, is there
            >seems to be no mid-engine manual options that places the engine over
            >the transaxle (with the exception of *very* expensive exotics such as
            >Lambos). The manual would also weigh less than the auto & I can adapt
            >a small-block to it.
            >As I mentioned before, I'm seeking alternatives for several projects.
            >One I'm currently gathering parts for (& have started some of the
            >work) is a mid-engine VW Cabriolet. I was originally thinking of
            >using Fiero running gear (& may still) & either an LT1 ('95 which I
            >have) or a 300HP 283 (which I also have). But I would rather do a V8
            >longitudinaly, as long as I can keep it manual (with a clutch) so I
            >can build it up as a roadracer-type machine.
            >Also, some of the other projects include an '88 Fiero automatic (in
            >which I'm leaning towards a Caddy 4.9 & 4-speed auto), & a Ferrari-
            >bodied '86 Fiero (which I would like to also have a longitudinal V8).
            >I don't mind adapting a small-block to an automatic transaxle for
            >that one, if I can make it fit within a 3" stretched Fiero. It's just
            >in the thinking about it stage right now, but I *do* have the car, &
            >am talking to a guy about trading me the body kit to build one for
            >him.
            >Thanks,
            >~ Paul
            >aka "Tha Driver"
            >
            >Easy on the Giggle Cream!



            --
            No virus found in this outgoing message.
            Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
            Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.15 - Release Date: 4/16/2005
          • joe4@DigArts.com
            ... Well, The way I see it, If you plop a THM425 into the back of a car you end up with a rear engined car, not a mid engined car. If I jack up my Mazdaillac
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 18, 2005
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              > All that makes a lot of sense. The reason I was asking, is there
              > seems to be no mid-engine manual options that places the engine over
              > the transaxle (with the exception of *very* expensive exotics such as
              > Lambos). The manual would also weigh less than the auto & I can adapt
              > a small-block to it.

              Well, The way I see it, If you plop a THM425 into the back of a car you
              end up with a rear engined car, not a mid engined car. If I jack up my
              Mazdaillac just in front of a rear wheel it lifts the whole side. The output
              shaft goes right under the second main bearing, so you have a little more
              than half the engine, all the transmission and most of the diff behind the
              axle. You can angle the axle shafts back as much as 25° (assuming you don't
              want rear steering :-) but I don't think you will actually get much of the
              weight onto the front axle. All this is mute if space constraints keep the
              engine pretty much over the axle.

              > As I mentioned before, I'm seeking alternatives for several projects.
              > One I'm currently gathering parts for (& have started some of the
              > work) is a mid-engine VW Cabriolet. I was originally thinking of
              > using Fiero running gear (& may still) & either an LT1 ('95 which I
              > have) or a 300HP 283 (which I also have). But I would rather do a V8
              > longitudinaly, as long as I can keep it manual (with a clutch) so I
              > can build it up as a roadracer-type machine.
              > Also, some of the other projects include an '88 Fiero automatic (in
              > which I'm leaning towards a Caddy 4.9 & 4-speed auto), & a Ferrari-
              > bodied '86 Fiero (which I would like to also have a longitudinal V8).
              > I don't mind adapting a small-block to an automatic transaxle for
              > that one, if I can make it fit within a 3" stretched Fiero. It's just
              > in the thinking about it stage right now, but I *do* have the car, &
              > am talking to a guy about trading me the body kit to build one for
              > him.
              > Thanks,

              Well, geez, if you're just talking small blocks then torque shouldn't be
              a big problem. If you have room for putting the engine in front of the axle
              (I've never taken a close look at a fiero engine compartment, but I know
              people like the transverse caddy setups for them, so it must be small) then you could think
              about the transaxle from the back of a modern corvette, you could look at
              late '90s mopars (I don't know that there is a manual, but there is a
              chance, and it is a strange enough setup it's just fun to look at) There
              were kits to put V8s in corvairs that used the stock trans, just rotated
              180° (I don't know how that works out direction-wise; they may have had to
              make the engine run backwards, or something...) and you can always just put
              a diff on a RWD trans where the tailshaft used to be...

              I kinda think space will be the biggest problem, so it may be time for a
              trip to the junkyard with your trusty tape measure.

              ...I just thought of the subarus. the center and front diffs are in the
              trans case, so if you fix the center diff it should do what you want. The
              stock engine has been known to break the stock trans, but there is a place
              that makes stronger gears for only ~$2500. Then if you ever wanted to add
              another axle and have a 4X6 it'd be easy. [*Smile*] ...you could do the
              same thing with other 4WD/AWD setups, and it would give you some flexabilty,
              the tradoff is moving the engine weight higher.

              ...Are you sure you don't want to build a cad engine with 700+ ft/lbs
              and not worry about this shifting stuff? It is fun to drive a 5200 pound
              vehicle that can spin it's front wheels...

              > ~ Paul
              > aka "Tha Driver"

              > Easy on the Giggle Cream!



              Joe Hamlin '78 Eldo Biarritz
            • Paul Angel
              ... drivetrain ... ********** Well, I m an artist, first of all. Cars are my medium. I just think they will look better, the weight will be more balanced, & in
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 18, 2005
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                --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, William
                Lucke <william.lucke@h...> wrote:
                > Why are you determined to have a longitudinal transmission in these
                > applications?
                >
                > Transverse manuals are lighter and more compact and have less
                drivetrain
                > loss (spur gear final drive instead of hypoid bevel).
                >
                >
                > Will
                **********
                Well, I'm an artist, first of all. Cars are my medium. I just think
                they will look better, the weight will be more balanced, & in the
                case of the Ferrari-bodied Fiero, look more like it's supposed to. I
                don't know of any exotic (except the Fiero :-) that has a transverse
                engine.
                Spur gear? I thought they were chain drive...(not that it matters).
                ~ Paul
                aka "Tha Driver"

                Easy on the Giggle Cream!









                >
                >
                >
                > > From: "Paul Angel" <imthadriver@y...>
                > >Subject: Re: Engine/drivetrain list
                >
                > >All that makes a lot of sense. The reason I was asking, is there
                > >seems to be no mid-engine manual options that places the engine
                over
                > >the transaxle (with the exception of *very* expensive exotics such
                as
                > >Lambos). The manual would also weigh less than the auto & I can
                adapt
                > >a small-block to it.
                > >As I mentioned before, I'm seeking alternatives for several
                projects.
                > >One I'm currently gathering parts for (& have started some of the
                > >work) is a mid-engine VW Cabriolet. I was originally thinking of
                > >using Fiero running gear (& may still) & either an LT1 ('95 which I
                > >have) or a 300HP 283 (which I also have). But I would rather do a
                V8
                > >longitudinaly, as long as I can keep it manual (with a clutch) so I
                > >can build it up as a roadracer-type machine.
                > >Also, some of the other projects include an '88 Fiero automatic
                (in
                > >which I'm leaning towards a Caddy 4.9 & 4-speed auto), & a Ferrari-
                > >bodied '86 Fiero (which I would like to also have a longitudinal
                V8).
                > >I don't mind adapting a small-block to an automatic transaxle for
                > >that one, if I can make it fit within a 3" stretched Fiero. It's
                just
                > >in the thinking about it stage right now, but I *do* have the car,
                &
                > >am talking to a guy about trading me the body kit to build one for
                > >him.
                > >Thanks,
                > >~ Paul
                > >aka "Tha Driver"
                > >
                > >Easy on the Giggle Cream!
                >
                >
                >
                > --
                > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.15 - Release Date:
                4/16/2005
              • Preston III
                LOL, you don t need 700 horsepower to smoke the front wheels in a FWD car! I ve got a 65 horsepower 84 Ford Escort that will SMOKE the tires! And it ll turn
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 18, 2005
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                  LOL, you don't need 700 horsepower to smoke the front
                  wheels in a FWD car! I've got a 65 horsepower '84
                  Ford Escort that will SMOKE the tires! And it'll turn
                  6000 RPM.

                  LOL, gotta love that weight transfer OFF the front
                  tires during acceleration and cornering!

                  Preston III

                  --- joe4@... wrote:
                  > ...Are you sure you don't want to build a cad
                  > engine with 700+ ft/lbs
                  > and not worry about this shifting stuff? It is fun
                  > to drive a 5200 pound
                  > vehicle that can spin it's front wheels...


                  Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.

                  When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left, and could say, "I used everything You gave me."

                  Preston, Tim, or Mr Bond. . . . They're all me!



                  __________________________________
                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball.
                  http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/
                • Paul Angel
                  ... over ... such as ... adapt ... car you ... *************** Yeah, it s kinda a mid-rear engine car. I consider a rear engine car to have the entire engine
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 18, 2005
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                    --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, joe4@D...
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > > All that makes a lot of sense. The reason I was asking, is there
                    > > seems to be no mid-engine manual options that places the engine
                    over
                    > > the transaxle (with the exception of *very* expensive exotics
                    such as
                    > > Lambos). The manual would also weigh less than the auto & I can
                    adapt
                    > > a small-block to it.
                    > *****
                    > Well, The way I see it, If you plop a THM425 into the back of a
                    car you
                    > end up with a rear engined car, not a mid engined car.
                    ***************
                    Yeah, it's kinda a mid-rear engine car. I consider a rear engine car
                    to have the entire engine behind the transmission, like Porsche &
                    Corvair.


                    If I jack up my
                    > Mazdaillac just in front of a rear wheel it lifts the whole side.
                    The output
                    > shaft goes right under the second main bearing, so you have a
                    little more
                    > than half the engine, all the transmission and most of the diff
                    behind the
                    > axle. You can angle the axle shafts back as much as 25° (assuming
                    you don't
                    > want rear steering :-) but I don't think you will actually get much
                    of the
                    > weight onto the front axle. All this is mute if space constraints
                    keep the
                    > engine pretty much over the axle.
                    > ***
                    > > As I mentioned before, I'm seeking alternatives for several
                    projects.
                    > > One I'm currently gathering parts for (& have started some of the
                    > > work) is a mid-engine VW Cabriolet. I was originally thinking of
                    > > using Fiero running gear (& may still) & either an LT1 ('95 which
                    I
                    > > have) or a 300HP 283 (which I also have). But I would rather do a
                    V8
                    > > longitudinaly, as long as I can keep it manual (with a clutch) so
                    I
                    > > can build it up as a roadracer-type machine.
                    > > Also, some of the other projects include an '88 Fiero automatic
                    (in
                    > > which I'm leaning towards a Caddy 4.9 & 4-speed auto), & a
                    Ferrari-
                    > > bodied '86 Fiero (which I would like to also have a longitudinal
                    V8).
                    > > I don't mind adapting a small-block to an automatic transaxle for
                    > > that one, if I can make it fit within a 3" stretched Fiero. It's
                    just
                    > > in the thinking about it stage right now, but I *do* have the
                    car, &
                    > > am talking to a guy about trading me the body kit to build one
                    for
                    > > him.
                    > > Thanks,
                    > ****
                    > Well, geez, if you're just talking small blocks then torque
                    shouldn't be
                    > a big problem. If you have room for putting the engine in front of
                    the axle
                    > (I've never taken a close look at a fiero engine compartment, but I
                    know
                    > people like the transverse caddy setups for them, so it must be
                    small) then you could think
                    > about the transaxle from the back of a modern corvette, you could
                    look at
                    > late '90s mopars (I don't know that there is a manual, but there is
                    a
                    > chance, and it is a strange enough setup it's just fun to look at)
                    There
                    > were kits to put V8s in corvairs that used the stock trans, just
                    rotated
                    > 180° (I don't know how that works out direction-wise; they may have
                    had to
                    > make the engine run backwards, or something...) and you can always
                    just put
                    > a diff on a RWD trans where the tailshaft used to be...
                    >
                    > I kinda think space will be the biggest problem, so it may be
                    time for a
                    > trip to the junkyard with your trusty tape measure.
                    *************
                    Yeah; nothing fits that has the engine in front of the drive axle (in
                    either car). I don't think a 36" stretched Fiero with a 33" stretched
                    Ferrari body is what I'm looking for.


                    >
                    > ...I just thought of the subarus. the center and front diffs
                    are in the
                    > trans case, so if you fix the center diff it should do what you
                    want. The
                    > stock engine has been known to break the stock trans, but there is
                    a place
                    > that makes stronger gears for only ~$2500.
                    **********
                    My entire budget for the drivetrain will be far less than that. I'm
                    an artist, & a poor one at that.




                    Then if you ever wanted to add
                    > another axle and have a 4X6 it'd be easy. [*Smile*] ...you could
                    do the
                    > same thing with other 4WD/AWD setups, and it would give you some
                    flexabilty,
                    > the tradoff is moving the engine weight higher.
                    >
                    > ...Are you sure you don't want to build a cad engine with 700+
                    ft/lbs
                    > and not worry about this shifting stuff? It is fun to drive a 5200
                    pound
                    > vehicle that can spin it's front wheels...
                    ***************
                    Just don't want an automatic in the VW - not the thing for
                    a "roadracer". I might would consider it for the Ferrari-bodied car,
                    but really don't want the weight - it won't handle nearly as well.
                    None of these will be FWD.
                    On a side note, I'm thinking of using Brat running gear in my VW baja
                    bug, using the VW engine in it's normal location. I'm running gear
                    reduction boxes that reverse the rotation of the rear drive shafts,
                    so all I would have to do is mount the front diff. upside down. BTW
                    when using a transaxle such as a corvair in a mid-engine, you reverse
                    the side the ring gear is on.


                    >
                    > > ~ Paul
                    > > aka "Tha Driver"
                    >
                    > > Easy on the Giggle Cream!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Joe Hamlin '78 Eldo Biarritz
                  • John Brody
                    FYI FWD Audis from the early 80 s on were front engine, front-drive with (I believe) a longitudinal transmission that came in a manual. Move the entire
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 18, 2005
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                      FYI FWD Audis from the early 80's on were front engine, front-drive
                      with (I believe) a longitudinal transmission that came in a manual.
                      Move the entire drive-train to the back of a car and you've got a
                      sweet mid-engine rear-drive manual setup. I believe I have seen
                      websites where people adapted other engines to the Audi trans and
                      beefed up the internals, but I don't remember where right now. That
                      would save you the trouble of having to deal with fixing the center
                      diff of a 4WD Subaru -- although the Audis did come in 4WD as well,
                      they also came in 2WD.

                      John



                      On 4/18/05, Paul Angel <imthadriver@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com,
                      > joe4@D...
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > All that makes a lot of sense. The reason I was asking, is there
                      > > > seems to be no mid-engine manual options that places the engine
                      > over
                      > > > the transaxle (with the exception of *very* expensive exotics
                      > such as
                      > > > Lambos). The manual would also weigh less than the auto & I can
                      > adapt
                      > > > a small-block to it.
                      > > *****
                      > > Well, The way I see it, If you plop a THM425 into the back of a
                      > car you
                      > > end up with a rear engined car, not a mid engined car.
                      > ***************
                      > Yeah, it's kinda a mid-rear engine car. I consider a rear engine car
                      > to have the entire engine behind the transmission, like Porsche &
                      > Corvair.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > If I jack up my
                      > > Mazdaillac just in front of a rear wheel it lifts the whole side.
                      > The output
                      > > shaft goes right under the second main bearing, so you have a
                      > little more
                      > > than half the engine, all the transmission and most of the diff
                      > behind the
                      > > axle. You can angle the axle shafts back as much as 25° (assuming
                      > you don't
                      > > want rear steering :-) but I don't think you will actually get much
                      > of the
                      > > weight onto the front axle. All this is mute if space constraints
                      > keep the
                      > > engine pretty much over the axle.
                      > > ***
                      > > > As I mentioned before, I'm seeking alternatives for several
                      > projects.
                      > > > One I'm currently gathering parts for (& have started some of the
                      > > > work) is a mid-engine VW Cabriolet. I was originally thinking of
                      > > > using Fiero running gear (& may still) & either an LT1 ('95 which
                      > I
                      > > > have) or a 300HP 283 (which I also have). But I would rather do a
                      > V8
                      > > > longitudinaly, as long as I can keep it manual (with a clutch) so
                      > I
                      > > > can build it up as a roadracer-type machine.
                      > > > Also, some of the other projects include an '88 Fiero automatic
                      > (in
                      > > > which I'm leaning towards a Caddy 4.9 & 4-speed auto), & a
                      > Ferrari-
                      > > > bodied '86 Fiero (which I would like to also have a longitudinal
                      > V8).
                      > > > I don't mind adapting a small-block to an automatic transaxle for
                      > > > that one, if I can make it fit within a 3" stretched Fiero. It's
                      > just
                      > > > in the thinking about it stage right now, but I *do* have the
                      > car, &
                      > > > am talking to a guy about trading me the body kit to build one
                      > for
                      > > > him.
                      > > > Thanks,
                      > > ****
                      > > Well, geez, if you're just talking small blocks then torque
                      > shouldn't be
                      > > a big problem. If you have room for putting the engine in front of
                      > the axle
                      > > (I've never taken a close look at a fiero engine compartment, but I
                      > know
                      > > people like the transverse caddy setups for them, so it must be
                      > small) then you could think
                      > > about the transaxle from the back of a modern corvette, you could
                      > look at
                      > > late '90s mopars (I don't know that there is a manual, but there is
                      > a
                      > > chance, and it is a strange enough setup it's just fun to look at)
                      > There
                      > > were kits to put V8s in corvairs that used the stock trans, just
                      > rotated
                      > > 180° (I don't know how that works out direction-wise; they may have
                      > had to
                      > > make the engine run backwards, or something...) and you can always
                      > just put
                      > > a diff on a RWD trans where the tailshaft used to be...
                      > >
                      > > I kinda think space will be the biggest problem, so it may be
                      > time for a
                      > > trip to the junkyard with your trusty tape measure.
                      > *************
                      > Yeah; nothing fits that has the engine in front of the drive axle (in
                      > either car). I don't think a 36" stretched Fiero with a 33" stretched
                      > Ferrari body is what I'm looking for.
                      >
                      >
                      > >
                      > > ...I just thought of the subarus. the center and front diffs
                      > are in the
                      > > trans case, so if you fix the center diff it should do what you
                      > want. The
                      > > stock engine has been known to break the stock trans, but there is
                      > a place
                      > > that makes stronger gears for only ~$2500.
                      > **********
                      > My entire budget for the drivetrain will be far less than that. I'm
                      > an artist, & a poor one at that.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Then if you ever wanted to add
                      > > another axle and have a 4X6 it'd be easy. [*Smile*] ...you could
                      > do the
                      > > same thing with other 4WD/AWD setups, and it would give you some
                      > flexabilty,
                      > > the tradoff is moving the engine weight higher.
                      > >
                      > > ...Are you sure you don't want to build a cad engine with 700+
                      > ft/lbs
                      > > and not worry about this shifting stuff? It is fun to drive a 5200
                      > pound
                      > > vehicle that can spin it's front wheels...
                      > ***************
                      > Just don't want an automatic in the VW - not the thing for
                      > a "roadracer". I might would consider it for the Ferrari-bodied car,
                      > but really don't want the weight - it won't handle nearly as well.
                      > None of these will be FWD.
                      > On a side note, I'm thinking of using Brat running gear in my VW baja
                      > bug, using the VW engine in it's normal location. I'm running gear
                      > reduction boxes that reverse the rotation of the rear drive shafts,
                      > so all I would have to do is mount the front diff. upside down. BTW
                      > when using a transaxle such as a corvair in a mid-engine, you reverse
                      > the side the ring gear is on.
                      >
                      >
                      > >
                      > > > ~ Paul
                      > > > aka "Tha Driver"
                      > >
                      > > > Easy on the Giggle Cream!
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Joe Hamlin '78 Eldo Biarritz
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cadillac_Performance_Association/
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > Cadillac_Performance_Association-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                    • Paul Angel
                      ... **************** Haven t been able to find a reasonably priced Audi transaxle. I think I could use that in the VW Cabriolet, though; but I don t think
                      Message 10 of 20 , Apr 18, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, John Brody
                        <jbrody@g...> wrote:
                        > FYI FWD Audis from the early 80's on were front engine, front-drive
                        > with (I believe) a longitudinal transmission that came in a manual.
                        > Move the entire drive-train to the back of a car and you've got a
                        > sweet mid-engine rear-drive manual setup. I believe I have seen
                        > websites where people adapted other engines to the Audi trans and
                        > beefed up the internals, but I don't remember where right now. That
                        > would save you the trouble of having to deal with fixing the center
                        > diff of a 4WD Subaru -- although the Audis did come in 4WD as well,
                        > they also came in 2WD.
                        >
                        > John
                        ****************
                        Haven't been able to find a reasonably priced Audi transaxle. I think
                        I could use that in the VW Cabriolet, though; but I don't think there
                        is enough room in the Fiero. The Audi parts seem to be gold...
                        ~ Paul
                        aka "Tha Driver"

                        Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*!












                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On 4/18/05, Paul Angel <imthadriver@y...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com,
                        > > joe4@D...
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > > All that makes a lot of sense. The reason I was asking, is
                        there
                        > > > > seems to be no mid-engine manual options that places the
                        engine
                        > > over
                        > > > > the transaxle (with the exception of *very* expensive exotics
                        > > such as
                        > > > > Lambos). The manual would also weigh less than the auto & I
                        can
                        > > adapt
                        > > > > a small-block to it.
                        > > > *****
                        > > > Well, The way I see it, If you plop a THM425 into the back
                        of a
                        > > car you
                        > > > end up with a rear engined car, not a mid engined car.
                        > > ***************
                        > > Yeah, it's kinda a mid-rear engine car. I consider a rear engine
                        car
                        > > to have the entire engine behind the transmission, like Porsche &
                        > > Corvair.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > If I jack up my
                        > > > Mazdaillac just in front of a rear wheel it lifts the whole
                        side.
                        > > The output
                        > > > shaft goes right under the second main bearing, so you have a
                        > > little more
                        > > > than half the engine, all the transmission and most of the diff
                        > > behind the
                        > > > axle. You can angle the axle shafts back as much as 25°
                        (assuming
                        > > you don't
                        > > > want rear steering :-) but I don't think you will actually get
                        much
                        > > of the
                        > > > weight onto the front axle. All this is mute if space
                        constraints
                        > > keep the
                        > > > engine pretty much over the axle.
                        > > > ***
                        > > > > As I mentioned before, I'm seeking alternatives for several
                        > > projects.
                        > > > > One I'm currently gathering parts for (& have started some of
                        the
                        > > > > work) is a mid-engine VW Cabriolet. I was originally thinking
                        of
                        > > > > using Fiero running gear (& may still) & either an LT1 ('95
                        which
                        > > I
                        > > > > have) or a 300HP 283 (which I also have). But I would rather
                        do a
                        > > V8
                        > > > > longitudinaly, as long as I can keep it manual (with a
                        clutch) so
                        > > I
                        > > > > can build it up as a roadracer-type machine.
                        > > > > Also, some of the other projects include an '88 Fiero
                        automatic
                        > > (in
                        > > > > which I'm leaning towards a Caddy 4.9 & 4-speed auto), & a
                        > > Ferrari-
                        > > > > bodied '86 Fiero (which I would like to also have a
                        longitudinal
                        > > V8).
                        > > > > I don't mind adapting a small-block to an automatic transaxle
                        for
                        > > > > that one, if I can make it fit within a 3" stretched Fiero.
                        It's
                        > > just
                        > > > > in the thinking about it stage right now, but I *do* have the
                        > > car, &
                        > > > > am talking to a guy about trading me the body kit to build
                        one
                        > > for
                        > > > > him.
                        > > > > Thanks,
                        > > > ****
                        > > > Well, geez, if you're just talking small blocks then torque
                        > > shouldn't be
                        > > > a big problem. If you have room for putting the engine in front
                        of
                        > > the axle
                        > > > (I've never taken a close look at a fiero engine compartment,
                        but I
                        > > know
                        > > > people like the transverse caddy setups for them, so it must be
                        > > small) then you could think
                        > > > about the transaxle from the back of a modern corvette, you
                        could
                        > > look at
                        > > > late '90s mopars (I don't know that there is a manual, but
                        there is
                        > > a
                        > > > chance, and it is a strange enough setup it's just fun to look
                        at)
                        > > There
                        > > > were kits to put V8s in corvairs that used the stock trans,
                        just
                        > > rotated
                        > > > 180° (I don't know how that works out direction-wise; they may
                        have
                        > > had to
                        > > > make the engine run backwards, or something...) and you can
                        always
                        > > just put
                        > > > a diff on a RWD trans where the tailshaft used to be...
                        > > >
                        > > > I kinda think space will be the biggest problem, so it may
                        be
                        > > time for a
                        > > > trip to the junkyard with your trusty tape measure.
                        > > *************
                        > > Yeah; nothing fits that has the engine in front of the drive axle
                        (in
                        > > either car). I don't think a 36" stretched Fiero with a 33"
                        stretched
                        > > Ferrari body is what I'm looking for.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ...I just thought of the subarus. the center and front
                        diffs
                        > > are in the
                        > > > trans case, so if you fix the center diff it should do what you
                        > > want. The
                        > > > stock engine has been known to break the stock trans, but there
                        is
                        > > a place
                        > > > that makes stronger gears for only ~$2500.
                        > > **********
                        > > My entire budget for the drivetrain will be far less than that.
                        I'm
                        > > an artist, & a poor one at that.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Then if you ever wanted to add
                        > > > another axle and have a 4X6 it'd be easy. [*Smile*] ...you
                        could
                        > > do the
                        > > > same thing with other 4WD/AWD setups, and it would give you
                        some
                        > > flexabilty,
                        > > > the tradoff is moving the engine weight higher.
                        > > >
                        > > > ...Are you sure you don't want to build a cad engine with
                        700+
                        > > ft/lbs
                        > > > and not worry about this shifting stuff? It is fun to drive a
                        5200
                        > > pound
                        > > > vehicle that can spin it's front wheels...
                        > > ***************
                        > > Just don't want an automatic in the VW - not the thing for
                        > > a "roadracer". I might would consider it for the Ferrari-bodied
                        car,
                        > > but really don't want the weight - it won't handle nearly as
                        well.
                        > > None of these will be FWD.
                        > > On a side note, I'm thinking of using Brat running gear in my VW
                        baja
                        > > bug, using the VW engine in it's normal location. I'm running
                        gear
                        > > reduction boxes that reverse the rotation of the rear drive
                        shafts,
                        > > so all I would have to do is mount the front diff. upside down.
                        BTW
                        > > when using a transaxle such as a corvair in a mid-engine, you
                        reverse
                        > > the side the ring gear is on.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > > > ~ Paul
                        > > > > aka "Tha Driver"
                        > > >
                        > > > > Easy on the Giggle Cream!
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Joe Hamlin '78 Eldo Biarritz
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ________________________________
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cadillac_Performance_Association/
                        > >
                        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > Cadillac_Performance_Association-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > >
                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        Service.
                      • William Lucke
                        The transverse automatics have a chain drive from the pump to the transmission, then a planetary final. Transverse manuals have spur gear final drive Either
                        Message 11 of 20 , Apr 19, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          The transverse automatics have a chain drive from the pump to the
                          transmission, then a planetary final.
                          Transverse manuals have spur gear final drive
                          Either way, they avoid the drivetrain loss of a hypoid bevel final drive.

                          Which Ferarri body?
                          Dino 246, Ferarri 308 and 328 were all transverse
                          As was the Lamborghini Jalpa (and maybe the Miura, not sure), as well as
                          the Cizeta Moroder V16T (transverse V16 based on two Lambo Urago V8's put
                          together)
                          And my Northstar Fiero with HM282 five speed. It ran 12's on the stock
                          engine. It will be back on the road after performance build soon.
                          I think that the transverse approach IS artful for the reasons I already
                          mentioned... the transmission is simpler, smaller and lighter and more
                          efficient. Mechanical art and elegant design.


                          Will


                          > From: "Paul Angel" <imthadriver@...>
                          >Subject: Re: Engine/drivetrain list
                          >
                          >
                          >--- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, William
                          >Lucke <william.lucke@h...> wrote:
                          > > Why are you determined to have a longitudinal transmission in these
                          > > applications?
                          > >
                          > > Transverse manuals are lighter and more compact and have less
                          >drivetrain
                          > > loss (spur gear final drive instead of hypoid bevel).
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Will
                          >**********
                          >Well, I'm an artist, first of all. Cars are my medium. I just think
                          >they will look better, the weight will be more balanced, & in the
                          >case of the Ferrari-bodied Fiero, look more like it's supposed to. I
                          >don't know of any exotic (except the Fiero :-) that has a transverse
                          >engine.
                          >Spur gear? I thought they were chain drive...(not that it matters).
                          >~ Paul
                          >aka "Tha Driver"
                          >
                          >Easy on the Giggle Cream!



                          --
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                        • Paul Angel
                          ... drive. ... well as ... V8 s put ... stock ... already ... more ... ************* Really? Never noticed that. The guy I m talking to has the 355 Ferrari;
                          Message 12 of 20 , Apr 19, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, William
                            Lucke <william.lucke@h...> wrote:
                            > The transverse automatics have a chain drive from the pump to the
                            > transmission, then a planetary final.
                            > Transverse manuals have spur gear final drive
                            > Either way, they avoid the drivetrain loss of a hypoid bevel final
                            drive.
                            >
                            > Which Ferarri body?
                            > Dino 246, Ferarri 308 and 328 were all transverse
                            > As was the Lamborghini Jalpa (and maybe the Miura, not sure), as
                            well as
                            > the Cizeta Moroder V16T (transverse V16 based on two Lambo Urago
                            V8's put
                            > together)
                            > And my Northstar Fiero with HM282 five speed. It ran 12's on the
                            stock
                            > engine. It will be back on the road after performance build soon.
                            > I think that the transverse approach IS artful for the reasons I
                            already
                            > mentioned... the transmission is simpler, smaller and lighter and
                            more
                            > efficient. Mechanical art and elegant design.
                            >
                            >
                            > Will
                            *************
                            Really? Never noticed that. The guy I'm talking to has the 355
                            Ferrari; They're longitudinal V8s, Right?
                            But strickly as art, the tranverse setups just don't appeal to me.
                            I'm very eccentric, you know. (I'm an artist :-D
                            ~ Paul
                            aka "Tha Driver"

                            Easy on the Giggle Cream!









                            >
                            >
                            > > From: "Paul Angel" <imthadriver@y...>
                            > >Subject: Re: Engine/drivetrain list
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >--- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, William
                            > >Lucke <william.lucke@h...> wrote:
                            > > > Why are you determined to have a longitudinal transmission in
                            these
                            > > > applications?
                            > > >
                            > > > Transverse manuals are lighter and more compact and have less
                            > >drivetrain
                            > > > loss (spur gear final drive instead of hypoid bevel).
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Will
                            > >**********
                            > >Well, I'm an artist, first of all. Cars are my medium. I just think
                            > >they will look better, the weight will be more balanced, & in the
                            > >case of the Ferrari-bodied Fiero, look more like it's supposed to.
                            I
                            > >don't know of any exotic (except the Fiero :-) that has a
                            transverse
                            > >engine.
                            > >Spur gear? I thought they were chain drive...(not that it matters).
                            > >~ Paul
                            > >aka "Tha Driver"
                            > >
                            > >Easy on the Giggle Cream!
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --
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                            > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                            > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.17 - Release Date:
                            4/19/2005
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