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Re: Engine/drivetrain list

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  • Paul Angel
    ... trans ... engine of ... ************* Thanks Joe (& others), That s the jist of what I need. I can now check cars as I find them for year, engine size,
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 17, 2005
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      --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, joe4@D...
      wrote:
      >
      > Before '67 RWD
      >
      > '67-'78 eldo FWD THM425 longitudal trans Cad engine of the year
      > (472-500-425)
      >
      > '79-'85 eldo, '80-85 seville FWD THM325 3 or 4 speed longitudal
      trans
      > various engines (Olds 350, 350 Desiel, buick V6?, cad 368, 4.1L)
      >
      > After that FWD was transverse with the THM440 or 4T80E and cad
      engine of
      > the year (4.1L?, 4.5L, 4.9L, 4.6Northstar)
      >
      > ...don't know the caviler and opel based cadillacs....
      *************
      Thanks Joe (& others),
      That's the jist of what I need. I can now check cars as I find them
      for year, engine size, etc.
      One more question: was there ever a 4 or 5-speed (manual)
      longitudinal trans in the FWD Caddies?
      Thanks again,
      ~ Paul
      aka "Tha Driver"

      Easy on the Giggle Cream!





      >
      > On 17-Apr-05, Paul Angel wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > > --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, "Tom
      > > McKenna" <TRAVELER@N...> wrote:
      > >> You can buy copies of the older Hollanders on Ebay - they are
      > > called
      > >> Classic Search" Versions and are put out by Hollander - they
      cover
      > > specific
      > >> years - I have a 1946 -1956 edition and I use it all the time -
      > > they do not
      > >> cover every piece, but most of the main stuff and are well worth
      > > the $50-$60
      > >> investment - mine has paid for iltself many times over the years
      I
      > > have had
      > >> it.
      > >>
      > >> Check Ebay under "Hollander" - I think the fellow I got mine
      from
      > > is still
      > >> selling them there - He was based in Michigan and great to deal
      > > with -
      > >> unfortunately I have misplaced his particulars.
      > >>
      > >> Tom
      > > **************
      > > Thanks,
      > > Do they say specificly if - for instance - a FWD car is
      transverse or
      > > longitudinal? This is very important as I'm searching for
      drivetrains
      > > for a variety of cars/combinations (checking on different
      > > possibilities for my projects).
      > > ~ Paul
      > > aka "Tha Driver"
      >
      > > Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*!
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > >>
      > >> -------Original Message-------
      > >>
      > >> From: RGermain
      > >>
      > >> what you need is a Hollander Interchange manual
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Regards
      > --
      >
      > Joe Hamlin '78 Eldo Biarritz
    • joe4@DigArts.com
      As far as I know there is no manual counterpart to the THM425. That s the trans that makes all this fun. Stock they can handle more than 500ft/lbs of torque,
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 17, 2005
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        As far as I know there is no manual counterpart to the THM425. That's
        the trans that makes all this fun. Stock they can handle more than 500ft/lbs
        of torque, and the whole package is still small enough to be stuffed into,
        say, the back seat of a yugo (or in my project, the back of a mazda pickup)

        This really isn't the drivetrain I'd pick for a small nimble fussy
        sports car. For that you want something small and light that can make power
        by spinning fast. A Cad 500 (or Olds 455) and THM425 combo is getting close
        to half a ton. But they are reliable and cheap and can make big torque while
        getting decent milage. So put it in something that wants to do wheelies. You
        don't want to bother shifting when the front end is up in the air, anyway.

        Really it shouldn't be too hard to set up a THM425 for full manual
        control, if it would feel better for you.

        ...if you are not thinking big torque you might find something in a late
        90's mopar. And there's always the rear engined sports cars.

        Good Luck!


        > One more question: was there ever a 4 or 5-speed (manual)
        > longitudinal trans in the FWD Caddies?
        > Thanks again,
        > ~ Paul
        > aka "Tha Driver"

        > Easy on the Giggle Cream!

        Joe Hamlin '78 Eldo Biarritz
      • Paul Angel
        ... That s ... 500ft/lbs ... stuffed into, ... pickup) ... fussy ... make power ... getting close ... torque while ... wheelies. You ... anyway. ... manual ...
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 17, 2005
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          --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, joe4@D...
          wrote:
          >
          > As far as I know there is no manual counterpart to the THM425.
          That's
          > the trans that makes all this fun. Stock they can handle more than
          500ft/lbs
          > of torque, and the whole package is still small enough to be
          stuffed into,
          > say, the back seat of a yugo (or in my project, the back of a mazda
          pickup)
          >
          > This really isn't the drivetrain I'd pick for a small nimble
          fussy
          > sports car. For that you want something small and light that can
          make power
          > by spinning fast. A Cad 500 (or Olds 455) and THM425 combo is
          getting close
          > to half a ton. But they are reliable and cheap and can make big
          torque while
          > getting decent milage. So put it in something that wants to do
          wheelies. You
          > don't want to bother shifting when the front end is up in the air,
          anyway.
          >
          > Really it shouldn't be too hard to set up a THM425 for full
          manual
          > control, if it would feel better for you.
          >
          > ...if you are not thinking big torque you might find something
          in a late
          > 90's mopar. And there's always the rear engined sports cars.
          >
          > Good Luck!
          ****************
          All that makes a lot of sense. The reason I was asking, is there
          seems to be no mid-engine manual options that places the engine over
          the transaxle (with the exception of *very* expensive exotics such as
          Lambos). The manual would also weigh less than the auto & I can adapt
          a small-block to it.
          As I mentioned before, I'm seeking alternatives for several projects.
          One I'm currently gathering parts for (& have started some of the
          work) is a mid-engine VW Cabriolet. I was originally thinking of
          using Fiero running gear (& may still) & either an LT1 ('95 which I
          have) or a 300HP 283 (which I also have). But I would rather do a V8
          longitudinaly, as long as I can keep it manual (with a clutch) so I
          can build it up as a roadracer-type machine.
          Also, some of the other projects include an '88 Fiero automatic (in
          which I'm leaning towards a Caddy 4.9 & 4-speed auto), & a Ferrari-
          bodied '86 Fiero (which I would like to also have a longitudinal V8).
          I don't mind adapting a small-block to an automatic transaxle for
          that one, if I can make it fit within a 3" stretched Fiero. It's just
          in the thinking about it stage right now, but I *do* have the car, &
          am talking to a guy about trading me the body kit to build one for
          him.
          Thanks,
          ~ Paul
          aka "Tha Driver"

          Easy on the Giggle Cream!







          >
          >
          > > One more question: was there ever a 4 or 5-speed (manual)
          > > longitudinal trans in the FWD Caddies?
          > > Thanks again,
          > > ~ Paul
          > > aka "Tha Driver"
          >
          > > Easy on the Giggle Cream!
          >
          > Joe Hamlin '78 Eldo Biarritz
        • RGermain
          Maybe someplace like Advance adapters has what you need??? ... That s ... 500ft/lbs ... stuffed into, ... pickup) ... fussy ... make power ... getting close
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 17, 2005
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            Maybe someplace like Advance adapters has what you need???

            Paul Angel <imthadriver@...> wrote:

            --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, joe4@D...
            wrote:
            >
            >     As far as I know there is no manual counterpart to the THM425.
            That's
            > the trans that makes all this fun. Stock they can handle more than
            500ft/lbs
            > of torque, and the whole package is still small enough to be
            stuffed into,
            > say, the back seat of a yugo (or in my project, the back of a mazda
            pickup)
            >
            >     This really isn't the drivetrain I'd pick for a small nimble
            fussy
            > sports car. For that you want something small and light that can
            make power
            > by spinning fast. A Cad 500 (or Olds 455) and THM425 combo is
            getting close
            > to half a ton. But they are reliable and cheap and can make big
            torque while
            > getting decent milage. So put it in something that wants to do
            wheelies. You
            > don't want to bother shifting when the front end is up in the air,
            anyway.
            >
            >     Really it shouldn't be too hard to set up a THM425 for full
            manual
            > control, if it would feel better for you.
            >
            >     ...if you are not thinking big torque you might find something
            in a late
            > 90's mopar. And there's always the rear engined sports cars.
            >
            > Good Luck!
            ****************
            All that makes a lot of sense. The reason I was asking, is there
            seems to be no mid-engine manual options that places the engine over
            the transaxle (with the exception of *very* expensive exotics such as
            Lambos). The manual would also weigh less than the auto & I can adapt
            a small-block to it.
            As I mentioned before, I'm seeking alternatives for several projects.
            One I'm currently gathering parts for (& have started some of the
            work) is a mid-engine VW Cabriolet. I was originally thinking of
            using Fiero running gear (& may still) & either an LT1 ('95 which I
            have) or a 300HP 283 (which I also have). But I would rather do a V8
            longitudinaly, as long as I can keep it manual (with a clutch) so I
            can build it up as a roadracer-type machine.
            Also,  some of the other projects include an '88 Fiero automatic (in
            which I'm leaning towards a Caddy 4.9 & 4-speed auto), & a Ferrari-
            bodied '86 Fiero (which I would like to also have a longitudinal V8).
            I don't mind adapting a small-block to an automatic transaxle for
            that one, if I can make it fit within a 3" stretched Fiero. It's just
            in the thinking about it stage right now, but I *do* have the car, &
            am talking to a guy about trading me the body kit to build one for
            him.
            Thanks,
            ~ Paul
            aka "Tha Driver"

            Easy on the Giggle Cream!







            >
            >
            > > One more question: was there ever a 4 or 5-speed (manual)
            > > longitudinal trans in the FWD Caddies?
            > > Thanks again,
            > > ~ Paul
            > > aka "Tha Driver"
            >
            > > Easy on the Giggle Cream!
            >
            > Joe Hamlin '78 Eldo Biarritz





          • Paul Angel
            ... *********** Adaptors are not a problem. You can find most anything, & if not I can make one (or have it made if need be). The problem is finding a
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 17, 2005
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              --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, RGermain
              <rich_germain@y...> wrote:
              > Maybe someplace like Advance adapters has what you need???
              ***********
              Adaptors are not a problem. You can find most anything, & if not I
              can make one (or have it made if need be).
              The problem is finding a transaxle I can use with very little
              money. :-p Thus the reason for determining every possibility &
              option in order to keep an eye out for the right car/deal.
              And of course finding the manual trans that fits longitudinaly in a
              tight space - that's the biggest challenge.
              ~ Paul
              aka "Tha Driver"

              Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*!







              >
              > Paul Angel <imthadriver@y...> wrote:
              > --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, joe4@D...
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > As far as I know there is no manual counterpart to the
              THM425.
              > That's
              > > the trans that makes all this fun. Stock they can handle more
              than
              > 500ft/lbs
              > > of torque, and the whole package is still small enough to be
              > stuffed into,
              > > say, the back seat of a yugo (or in my project, the back of a
              mazda
              > pickup)
              > >
              > > This really isn't the drivetrain I'd pick for a small nimble
              > fussy
              > > sports car. For that you want something small and light that can
              > make power
              > > by spinning fast. A Cad 500 (or Olds 455) and THM425 combo is
              > getting close
              > > to half a ton. But they are reliable and cheap and can make big
              > torque while
              > > getting decent milage. So put it in something that wants to do
              > wheelies. You
              > > don't want to bother shifting when the front end is up in the
              air,
              > anyway.
              > >
              > > Really it shouldn't be too hard to set up a THM425 for full
              > manual
              > > control, if it would feel better for you.
              > >
              > > ...if you are not thinking big torque you might find
              something
              > in a late
              > > 90's mopar. And there's always the rear engined sports cars.
              > >
              > > Good Luck!
              > ****************
              > All that makes a lot of sense. The reason I was asking, is there
              > seems to be no mid-engine manual options that places the engine
              over
              > the transaxle (with the exception of *very* expensive exotics such
              as
              > Lambos). The manual would also weigh less than the auto & I can
              adapt
              > a small-block to it.
              > As I mentioned before, I'm seeking alternatives for several
              projects.
              > One I'm currently gathering parts for (& have started some of the
              > work) is a mid-engine VW Cabriolet. I was originally thinking of
              > using Fiero running gear (& may still) & either an LT1 ('95 which I
              > have) or a 300HP 283 (which I also have). But I would rather do a
              V8
              > longitudinaly, as long as I can keep it manual (with a clutch) so I
              > can build it up as a roadracer-type machine.
              > Also, some of the other projects include an '88 Fiero automatic
              (in
              > which I'm leaning towards a Caddy 4.9 & 4-speed auto), & a Ferrari-
              > bodied '86 Fiero (which I would like to also have a longitudinal
              V8).
              > I don't mind adapting a small-block to an automatic transaxle for
              > that one, if I can make it fit within a 3" stretched Fiero. It's
              just
              > in the thinking about it stage right now, but I *do* have the car,
              &
              > am talking to a guy about trading me the body kit to build one for
              > him.
              > Thanks,
              > ~ Paul
              > aka "Tha Driver"
              >
              > Easy on the Giggle Cream!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > > One more question: was there ever a 4 or 5-speed (manual)
              > > > longitudinal trans in the FWD Caddies?
              > > > Thanks again,
              > > > ~ Paul
              > > > aka "Tha Driver"
              > >
              > > > Easy on the Giggle Cream!
              > >
              > > Joe Hamlin '78 Eldo Biarritz
            • William Lucke
              Why are you determined to have a longitudinal transmission in these applications? Transverse manuals are lighter and more compact and have less drivetrain loss
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 18, 2005
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                Why are you determined to have a longitudinal transmission in these
                applications?

                Transverse manuals are lighter and more compact and have less drivetrain
                loss (spur gear final drive instead of hypoid bevel).


                Will



                > From: "Paul Angel" <imthadriver@...>
                >Subject: Re: Engine/drivetrain list

                >All that makes a lot of sense. The reason I was asking, is there
                >seems to be no mid-engine manual options that places the engine over
                >the transaxle (with the exception of *very* expensive exotics such as
                >Lambos). The manual would also weigh less than the auto & I can adapt
                >a small-block to it.
                >As I mentioned before, I'm seeking alternatives for several projects.
                >One I'm currently gathering parts for (& have started some of the
                >work) is a mid-engine VW Cabriolet. I was originally thinking of
                >using Fiero running gear (& may still) & either an LT1 ('95 which I
                >have) or a 300HP 283 (which I also have). But I would rather do a V8
                >longitudinaly, as long as I can keep it manual (with a clutch) so I
                >can build it up as a roadracer-type machine.
                >Also, some of the other projects include an '88 Fiero automatic (in
                >which I'm leaning towards a Caddy 4.9 & 4-speed auto), & a Ferrari-
                >bodied '86 Fiero (which I would like to also have a longitudinal V8).
                >I don't mind adapting a small-block to an automatic transaxle for
                >that one, if I can make it fit within a 3" stretched Fiero. It's just
                >in the thinking about it stage right now, but I *do* have the car, &
                >am talking to a guy about trading me the body kit to build one for
                >him.
                >Thanks,
                >~ Paul
                >aka "Tha Driver"
                >
                >Easy on the Giggle Cream!



                --
                No virus found in this outgoing message.
                Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.15 - Release Date: 4/16/2005
              • joe4@DigArts.com
                ... Well, The way I see it, If you plop a THM425 into the back of a car you end up with a rear engined car, not a mid engined car. If I jack up my Mazdaillac
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 18, 2005
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                  > All that makes a lot of sense. The reason I was asking, is there
                  > seems to be no mid-engine manual options that places the engine over
                  > the transaxle (with the exception of *very* expensive exotics such as
                  > Lambos). The manual would also weigh less than the auto & I can adapt
                  > a small-block to it.

                  Well, The way I see it, If you plop a THM425 into the back of a car you
                  end up with a rear engined car, not a mid engined car. If I jack up my
                  Mazdaillac just in front of a rear wheel it lifts the whole side. The output
                  shaft goes right under the second main bearing, so you have a little more
                  than half the engine, all the transmission and most of the diff behind the
                  axle. You can angle the axle shafts back as much as 25° (assuming you don't
                  want rear steering :-) but I don't think you will actually get much of the
                  weight onto the front axle. All this is mute if space constraints keep the
                  engine pretty much over the axle.

                  > As I mentioned before, I'm seeking alternatives for several projects.
                  > One I'm currently gathering parts for (& have started some of the
                  > work) is a mid-engine VW Cabriolet. I was originally thinking of
                  > using Fiero running gear (& may still) & either an LT1 ('95 which I
                  > have) or a 300HP 283 (which I also have). But I would rather do a V8
                  > longitudinaly, as long as I can keep it manual (with a clutch) so I
                  > can build it up as a roadracer-type machine.
                  > Also, some of the other projects include an '88 Fiero automatic (in
                  > which I'm leaning towards a Caddy 4.9 & 4-speed auto), & a Ferrari-
                  > bodied '86 Fiero (which I would like to also have a longitudinal V8).
                  > I don't mind adapting a small-block to an automatic transaxle for
                  > that one, if I can make it fit within a 3" stretched Fiero. It's just
                  > in the thinking about it stage right now, but I *do* have the car, &
                  > am talking to a guy about trading me the body kit to build one for
                  > him.
                  > Thanks,

                  Well, geez, if you're just talking small blocks then torque shouldn't be
                  a big problem. If you have room for putting the engine in front of the axle
                  (I've never taken a close look at a fiero engine compartment, but I know
                  people like the transverse caddy setups for them, so it must be small) then you could think
                  about the transaxle from the back of a modern corvette, you could look at
                  late '90s mopars (I don't know that there is a manual, but there is a
                  chance, and it is a strange enough setup it's just fun to look at) There
                  were kits to put V8s in corvairs that used the stock trans, just rotated
                  180° (I don't know how that works out direction-wise; they may have had to
                  make the engine run backwards, or something...) and you can always just put
                  a diff on a RWD trans where the tailshaft used to be...

                  I kinda think space will be the biggest problem, so it may be time for a
                  trip to the junkyard with your trusty tape measure.

                  ...I just thought of the subarus. the center and front diffs are in the
                  trans case, so if you fix the center diff it should do what you want. The
                  stock engine has been known to break the stock trans, but there is a place
                  that makes stronger gears for only ~$2500. Then if you ever wanted to add
                  another axle and have a 4X6 it'd be easy. [*Smile*] ...you could do the
                  same thing with other 4WD/AWD setups, and it would give you some flexabilty,
                  the tradoff is moving the engine weight higher.

                  ...Are you sure you don't want to build a cad engine with 700+ ft/lbs
                  and not worry about this shifting stuff? It is fun to drive a 5200 pound
                  vehicle that can spin it's front wheels...

                  > ~ Paul
                  > aka "Tha Driver"

                  > Easy on the Giggle Cream!



                  Joe Hamlin '78 Eldo Biarritz
                • Paul Angel
                  ... drivetrain ... ********** Well, I m an artist, first of all. Cars are my medium. I just think they will look better, the weight will be more balanced, & in
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 18, 2005
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                    --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, William
                    Lucke <william.lucke@h...> wrote:
                    > Why are you determined to have a longitudinal transmission in these
                    > applications?
                    >
                    > Transverse manuals are lighter and more compact and have less
                    drivetrain
                    > loss (spur gear final drive instead of hypoid bevel).
                    >
                    >
                    > Will
                    **********
                    Well, I'm an artist, first of all. Cars are my medium. I just think
                    they will look better, the weight will be more balanced, & in the
                    case of the Ferrari-bodied Fiero, look more like it's supposed to. I
                    don't know of any exotic (except the Fiero :-) that has a transverse
                    engine.
                    Spur gear? I thought they were chain drive...(not that it matters).
                    ~ Paul
                    aka "Tha Driver"

                    Easy on the Giggle Cream!









                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > > From: "Paul Angel" <imthadriver@y...>
                    > >Subject: Re: Engine/drivetrain list
                    >
                    > >All that makes a lot of sense. The reason I was asking, is there
                    > >seems to be no mid-engine manual options that places the engine
                    over
                    > >the transaxle (with the exception of *very* expensive exotics such
                    as
                    > >Lambos). The manual would also weigh less than the auto & I can
                    adapt
                    > >a small-block to it.
                    > >As I mentioned before, I'm seeking alternatives for several
                    projects.
                    > >One I'm currently gathering parts for (& have started some of the
                    > >work) is a mid-engine VW Cabriolet. I was originally thinking of
                    > >using Fiero running gear (& may still) & either an LT1 ('95 which I
                    > >have) or a 300HP 283 (which I also have). But I would rather do a
                    V8
                    > >longitudinaly, as long as I can keep it manual (with a clutch) so I
                    > >can build it up as a roadracer-type machine.
                    > >Also, some of the other projects include an '88 Fiero automatic
                    (in
                    > >which I'm leaning towards a Caddy 4.9 & 4-speed auto), & a Ferrari-
                    > >bodied '86 Fiero (which I would like to also have a longitudinal
                    V8).
                    > >I don't mind adapting a small-block to an automatic transaxle for
                    > >that one, if I can make it fit within a 3" stretched Fiero. It's
                    just
                    > >in the thinking about it stage right now, but I *do* have the car,
                    &
                    > >am talking to a guy about trading me the body kit to build one for
                    > >him.
                    > >Thanks,
                    > >~ Paul
                    > >aka "Tha Driver"
                    > >
                    > >Easy on the Giggle Cream!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                    > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                    > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.15 - Release Date:
                    4/16/2005
                  • Preston III
                    LOL, you don t need 700 horsepower to smoke the front wheels in a FWD car! I ve got a 65 horsepower 84 Ford Escort that will SMOKE the tires! And it ll turn
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 18, 2005
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                      LOL, you don't need 700 horsepower to smoke the front
                      wheels in a FWD car! I've got a 65 horsepower '84
                      Ford Escort that will SMOKE the tires! And it'll turn
                      6000 RPM.

                      LOL, gotta love that weight transfer OFF the front
                      tires during acceleration and cornering!

                      Preston III

                      --- joe4@... wrote:
                      > ...Are you sure you don't want to build a cad
                      > engine with 700+ ft/lbs
                      > and not worry about this shifting stuff? It is fun
                      > to drive a 5200 pound
                      > vehicle that can spin it's front wheels...


                      Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.

                      When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left, and could say, "I used everything You gave me."

                      Preston, Tim, or Mr Bond. . . . They're all me!



                      __________________________________
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                      Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball.
                      http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/
                    • Paul Angel
                      ... over ... such as ... adapt ... car you ... *************** Yeah, it s kinda a mid-rear engine car. I consider a rear engine car to have the entire engine
                      Message 10 of 20 , Apr 18, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, joe4@D...
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > > All that makes a lot of sense. The reason I was asking, is there
                        > > seems to be no mid-engine manual options that places the engine
                        over
                        > > the transaxle (with the exception of *very* expensive exotics
                        such as
                        > > Lambos). The manual would also weigh less than the auto & I can
                        adapt
                        > > a small-block to it.
                        > *****
                        > Well, The way I see it, If you plop a THM425 into the back of a
                        car you
                        > end up with a rear engined car, not a mid engined car.
                        ***************
                        Yeah, it's kinda a mid-rear engine car. I consider a rear engine car
                        to have the entire engine behind the transmission, like Porsche &
                        Corvair.


                        If I jack up my
                        > Mazdaillac just in front of a rear wheel it lifts the whole side.
                        The output
                        > shaft goes right under the second main bearing, so you have a
                        little more
                        > than half the engine, all the transmission and most of the diff
                        behind the
                        > axle. You can angle the axle shafts back as much as 25° (assuming
                        you don't
                        > want rear steering :-) but I don't think you will actually get much
                        of the
                        > weight onto the front axle. All this is mute if space constraints
                        keep the
                        > engine pretty much over the axle.
                        > ***
                        > > As I mentioned before, I'm seeking alternatives for several
                        projects.
                        > > One I'm currently gathering parts for (& have started some of the
                        > > work) is a mid-engine VW Cabriolet. I was originally thinking of
                        > > using Fiero running gear (& may still) & either an LT1 ('95 which
                        I
                        > > have) or a 300HP 283 (which I also have). But I would rather do a
                        V8
                        > > longitudinaly, as long as I can keep it manual (with a clutch) so
                        I
                        > > can build it up as a roadracer-type machine.
                        > > Also, some of the other projects include an '88 Fiero automatic
                        (in
                        > > which I'm leaning towards a Caddy 4.9 & 4-speed auto), & a
                        Ferrari-
                        > > bodied '86 Fiero (which I would like to also have a longitudinal
                        V8).
                        > > I don't mind adapting a small-block to an automatic transaxle for
                        > > that one, if I can make it fit within a 3" stretched Fiero. It's
                        just
                        > > in the thinking about it stage right now, but I *do* have the
                        car, &
                        > > am talking to a guy about trading me the body kit to build one
                        for
                        > > him.
                        > > Thanks,
                        > ****
                        > Well, geez, if you're just talking small blocks then torque
                        shouldn't be
                        > a big problem. If you have room for putting the engine in front of
                        the axle
                        > (I've never taken a close look at a fiero engine compartment, but I
                        know
                        > people like the transverse caddy setups for them, so it must be
                        small) then you could think
                        > about the transaxle from the back of a modern corvette, you could
                        look at
                        > late '90s mopars (I don't know that there is a manual, but there is
                        a
                        > chance, and it is a strange enough setup it's just fun to look at)
                        There
                        > were kits to put V8s in corvairs that used the stock trans, just
                        rotated
                        > 180° (I don't know how that works out direction-wise; they may have
                        had to
                        > make the engine run backwards, or something...) and you can always
                        just put
                        > a diff on a RWD trans where the tailshaft used to be...
                        >
                        > I kinda think space will be the biggest problem, so it may be
                        time for a
                        > trip to the junkyard with your trusty tape measure.
                        *************
                        Yeah; nothing fits that has the engine in front of the drive axle (in
                        either car). I don't think a 36" stretched Fiero with a 33" stretched
                        Ferrari body is what I'm looking for.


                        >
                        > ...I just thought of the subarus. the center and front diffs
                        are in the
                        > trans case, so if you fix the center diff it should do what you
                        want. The
                        > stock engine has been known to break the stock trans, but there is
                        a place
                        > that makes stronger gears for only ~$2500.
                        **********
                        My entire budget for the drivetrain will be far less than that. I'm
                        an artist, & a poor one at that.




                        Then if you ever wanted to add
                        > another axle and have a 4X6 it'd be easy. [*Smile*] ...you could
                        do the
                        > same thing with other 4WD/AWD setups, and it would give you some
                        flexabilty,
                        > the tradoff is moving the engine weight higher.
                        >
                        > ...Are you sure you don't want to build a cad engine with 700+
                        ft/lbs
                        > and not worry about this shifting stuff? It is fun to drive a 5200
                        pound
                        > vehicle that can spin it's front wheels...
                        ***************
                        Just don't want an automatic in the VW - not the thing for
                        a "roadracer". I might would consider it for the Ferrari-bodied car,
                        but really don't want the weight - it won't handle nearly as well.
                        None of these will be FWD.
                        On a side note, I'm thinking of using Brat running gear in my VW baja
                        bug, using the VW engine in it's normal location. I'm running gear
                        reduction boxes that reverse the rotation of the rear drive shafts,
                        so all I would have to do is mount the front diff. upside down. BTW
                        when using a transaxle such as a corvair in a mid-engine, you reverse
                        the side the ring gear is on.


                        >
                        > > ~ Paul
                        > > aka "Tha Driver"
                        >
                        > > Easy on the Giggle Cream!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Joe Hamlin '78 Eldo Biarritz
                      • John Brody
                        FYI FWD Audis from the early 80 s on were front engine, front-drive with (I believe) a longitudinal transmission that came in a manual. Move the entire
                        Message 11 of 20 , Apr 18, 2005
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                          FYI FWD Audis from the early 80's on were front engine, front-drive
                          with (I believe) a longitudinal transmission that came in a manual.
                          Move the entire drive-train to the back of a car and you've got a
                          sweet mid-engine rear-drive manual setup. I believe I have seen
                          websites where people adapted other engines to the Audi trans and
                          beefed up the internals, but I don't remember where right now. That
                          would save you the trouble of having to deal with fixing the center
                          diff of a 4WD Subaru -- although the Audis did come in 4WD as well,
                          they also came in 2WD.

                          John



                          On 4/18/05, Paul Angel <imthadriver@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com,
                          > joe4@D...
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > All that makes a lot of sense. The reason I was asking, is there
                          > > > seems to be no mid-engine manual options that places the engine
                          > over
                          > > > the transaxle (with the exception of *very* expensive exotics
                          > such as
                          > > > Lambos). The manual would also weigh less than the auto & I can
                          > adapt
                          > > > a small-block to it.
                          > > *****
                          > > Well, The way I see it, If you plop a THM425 into the back of a
                          > car you
                          > > end up with a rear engined car, not a mid engined car.
                          > ***************
                          > Yeah, it's kinda a mid-rear engine car. I consider a rear engine car
                          > to have the entire engine behind the transmission, like Porsche &
                          > Corvair.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > If I jack up my
                          > > Mazdaillac just in front of a rear wheel it lifts the whole side.
                          > The output
                          > > shaft goes right under the second main bearing, so you have a
                          > little more
                          > > than half the engine, all the transmission and most of the diff
                          > behind the
                          > > axle. You can angle the axle shafts back as much as 25° (assuming
                          > you don't
                          > > want rear steering :-) but I don't think you will actually get much
                          > of the
                          > > weight onto the front axle. All this is mute if space constraints
                          > keep the
                          > > engine pretty much over the axle.
                          > > ***
                          > > > As I mentioned before, I'm seeking alternatives for several
                          > projects.
                          > > > One I'm currently gathering parts for (& have started some of the
                          > > > work) is a mid-engine VW Cabriolet. I was originally thinking of
                          > > > using Fiero running gear (& may still) & either an LT1 ('95 which
                          > I
                          > > > have) or a 300HP 283 (which I also have). But I would rather do a
                          > V8
                          > > > longitudinaly, as long as I can keep it manual (with a clutch) so
                          > I
                          > > > can build it up as a roadracer-type machine.
                          > > > Also, some of the other projects include an '88 Fiero automatic
                          > (in
                          > > > which I'm leaning towards a Caddy 4.9 & 4-speed auto), & a
                          > Ferrari-
                          > > > bodied '86 Fiero (which I would like to also have a longitudinal
                          > V8).
                          > > > I don't mind adapting a small-block to an automatic transaxle for
                          > > > that one, if I can make it fit within a 3" stretched Fiero. It's
                          > just
                          > > > in the thinking about it stage right now, but I *do* have the
                          > car, &
                          > > > am talking to a guy about trading me the body kit to build one
                          > for
                          > > > him.
                          > > > Thanks,
                          > > ****
                          > > Well, geez, if you're just talking small blocks then torque
                          > shouldn't be
                          > > a big problem. If you have room for putting the engine in front of
                          > the axle
                          > > (I've never taken a close look at a fiero engine compartment, but I
                          > know
                          > > people like the transverse caddy setups for them, so it must be
                          > small) then you could think
                          > > about the transaxle from the back of a modern corvette, you could
                          > look at
                          > > late '90s mopars (I don't know that there is a manual, but there is
                          > a
                          > > chance, and it is a strange enough setup it's just fun to look at)
                          > There
                          > > were kits to put V8s in corvairs that used the stock trans, just
                          > rotated
                          > > 180° (I don't know how that works out direction-wise; they may have
                          > had to
                          > > make the engine run backwards, or something...) and you can always
                          > just put
                          > > a diff on a RWD trans where the tailshaft used to be...
                          > >
                          > > I kinda think space will be the biggest problem, so it may be
                          > time for a
                          > > trip to the junkyard with your trusty tape measure.
                          > *************
                          > Yeah; nothing fits that has the engine in front of the drive axle (in
                          > either car). I don't think a 36" stretched Fiero with a 33" stretched
                          > Ferrari body is what I'm looking for.
                          >
                          >
                          > >
                          > > ...I just thought of the subarus. the center and front diffs
                          > are in the
                          > > trans case, so if you fix the center diff it should do what you
                          > want. The
                          > > stock engine has been known to break the stock trans, but there is
                          > a place
                          > > that makes stronger gears for only ~$2500.
                          > **********
                          > My entire budget for the drivetrain will be far less than that. I'm
                          > an artist, & a poor one at that.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Then if you ever wanted to add
                          > > another axle and have a 4X6 it'd be easy. [*Smile*] ...you could
                          > do the
                          > > same thing with other 4WD/AWD setups, and it would give you some
                          > flexabilty,
                          > > the tradoff is moving the engine weight higher.
                          > >
                          > > ...Are you sure you don't want to build a cad engine with 700+
                          > ft/lbs
                          > > and not worry about this shifting stuff? It is fun to drive a 5200
                          > pound
                          > > vehicle that can spin it's front wheels...
                          > ***************
                          > Just don't want an automatic in the VW - not the thing for
                          > a "roadracer". I might would consider it for the Ferrari-bodied car,
                          > but really don't want the weight - it won't handle nearly as well.
                          > None of these will be FWD.
                          > On a side note, I'm thinking of using Brat running gear in my VW baja
                          > bug, using the VW engine in it's normal location. I'm running gear
                          > reduction boxes that reverse the rotation of the rear drive shafts,
                          > so all I would have to do is mount the front diff. upside down. BTW
                          > when using a transaxle such as a corvair in a mid-engine, you reverse
                          > the side the ring gear is on.
                          >
                          >
                          > >
                          > > > ~ Paul
                          > > > aka "Tha Driver"
                          > >
                          > > > Easy on the Giggle Cream!
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Joe Hamlin '78 Eldo Biarritz
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cadillac_Performance_Association/
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > Cadillac_Performance_Association-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                        • Paul Angel
                          ... **************** Haven t been able to find a reasonably priced Audi transaxle. I think I could use that in the VW Cabriolet, though; but I don t think
                          Message 12 of 20 , Apr 18, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, John Brody
                            <jbrody@g...> wrote:
                            > FYI FWD Audis from the early 80's on were front engine, front-drive
                            > with (I believe) a longitudinal transmission that came in a manual.
                            > Move the entire drive-train to the back of a car and you've got a
                            > sweet mid-engine rear-drive manual setup. I believe I have seen
                            > websites where people adapted other engines to the Audi trans and
                            > beefed up the internals, but I don't remember where right now. That
                            > would save you the trouble of having to deal with fixing the center
                            > diff of a 4WD Subaru -- although the Audis did come in 4WD as well,
                            > they also came in 2WD.
                            >
                            > John
                            ****************
                            Haven't been able to find a reasonably priced Audi transaxle. I think
                            I could use that in the VW Cabriolet, though; but I don't think there
                            is enough room in the Fiero. The Audi parts seem to be gold...
                            ~ Paul
                            aka "Tha Driver"

                            Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*!












                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > On 4/18/05, Paul Angel <imthadriver@y...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com,
                            > > joe4@D...
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > > All that makes a lot of sense. The reason I was asking, is
                            there
                            > > > > seems to be no mid-engine manual options that places the
                            engine
                            > > over
                            > > > > the transaxle (with the exception of *very* expensive exotics
                            > > such as
                            > > > > Lambos). The manual would also weigh less than the auto & I
                            can
                            > > adapt
                            > > > > a small-block to it.
                            > > > *****
                            > > > Well, The way I see it, If you plop a THM425 into the back
                            of a
                            > > car you
                            > > > end up with a rear engined car, not a mid engined car.
                            > > ***************
                            > > Yeah, it's kinda a mid-rear engine car. I consider a rear engine
                            car
                            > > to have the entire engine behind the transmission, like Porsche &
                            > > Corvair.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > If I jack up my
                            > > > Mazdaillac just in front of a rear wheel it lifts the whole
                            side.
                            > > The output
                            > > > shaft goes right under the second main bearing, so you have a
                            > > little more
                            > > > than half the engine, all the transmission and most of the diff
                            > > behind the
                            > > > axle. You can angle the axle shafts back as much as 25°
                            (assuming
                            > > you don't
                            > > > want rear steering :-) but I don't think you will actually get
                            much
                            > > of the
                            > > > weight onto the front axle. All this is mute if space
                            constraints
                            > > keep the
                            > > > engine pretty much over the axle.
                            > > > ***
                            > > > > As I mentioned before, I'm seeking alternatives for several
                            > > projects.
                            > > > > One I'm currently gathering parts for (& have started some of
                            the
                            > > > > work) is a mid-engine VW Cabriolet. I was originally thinking
                            of
                            > > > > using Fiero running gear (& may still) & either an LT1 ('95
                            which
                            > > I
                            > > > > have) or a 300HP 283 (which I also have). But I would rather
                            do a
                            > > V8
                            > > > > longitudinaly, as long as I can keep it manual (with a
                            clutch) so
                            > > I
                            > > > > can build it up as a roadracer-type machine.
                            > > > > Also, some of the other projects include an '88 Fiero
                            automatic
                            > > (in
                            > > > > which I'm leaning towards a Caddy 4.9 & 4-speed auto), & a
                            > > Ferrari-
                            > > > > bodied '86 Fiero (which I would like to also have a
                            longitudinal
                            > > V8).
                            > > > > I don't mind adapting a small-block to an automatic transaxle
                            for
                            > > > > that one, if I can make it fit within a 3" stretched Fiero.
                            It's
                            > > just
                            > > > > in the thinking about it stage right now, but I *do* have the
                            > > car, &
                            > > > > am talking to a guy about trading me the body kit to build
                            one
                            > > for
                            > > > > him.
                            > > > > Thanks,
                            > > > ****
                            > > > Well, geez, if you're just talking small blocks then torque
                            > > shouldn't be
                            > > > a big problem. If you have room for putting the engine in front
                            of
                            > > the axle
                            > > > (I've never taken a close look at a fiero engine compartment,
                            but I
                            > > know
                            > > > people like the transverse caddy setups for them, so it must be
                            > > small) then you could think
                            > > > about the transaxle from the back of a modern corvette, you
                            could
                            > > look at
                            > > > late '90s mopars (I don't know that there is a manual, but
                            there is
                            > > a
                            > > > chance, and it is a strange enough setup it's just fun to look
                            at)
                            > > There
                            > > > were kits to put V8s in corvairs that used the stock trans,
                            just
                            > > rotated
                            > > > 180° (I don't know how that works out direction-wise; they may
                            have
                            > > had to
                            > > > make the engine run backwards, or something...) and you can
                            always
                            > > just put
                            > > > a diff on a RWD trans where the tailshaft used to be...
                            > > >
                            > > > I kinda think space will be the biggest problem, so it may
                            be
                            > > time for a
                            > > > trip to the junkyard with your trusty tape measure.
                            > > *************
                            > > Yeah; nothing fits that has the engine in front of the drive axle
                            (in
                            > > either car). I don't think a 36" stretched Fiero with a 33"
                            stretched
                            > > Ferrari body is what I'm looking for.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > > > ...I just thought of the subarus. the center and front
                            diffs
                            > > are in the
                            > > > trans case, so if you fix the center diff it should do what you
                            > > want. The
                            > > > stock engine has been known to break the stock trans, but there
                            is
                            > > a place
                            > > > that makes stronger gears for only ~$2500.
                            > > **********
                            > > My entire budget for the drivetrain will be far less than that.
                            I'm
                            > > an artist, & a poor one at that.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Then if you ever wanted to add
                            > > > another axle and have a 4X6 it'd be easy. [*Smile*] ...you
                            could
                            > > do the
                            > > > same thing with other 4WD/AWD setups, and it would give you
                            some
                            > > flexabilty,
                            > > > the tradoff is moving the engine weight higher.
                            > > >
                            > > > ...Are you sure you don't want to build a cad engine with
                            700+
                            > > ft/lbs
                            > > > and not worry about this shifting stuff? It is fun to drive a
                            5200
                            > > pound
                            > > > vehicle that can spin it's front wheels...
                            > > ***************
                            > > Just don't want an automatic in the VW - not the thing for
                            > > a "roadracer". I might would consider it for the Ferrari-bodied
                            car,
                            > > but really don't want the weight - it won't handle nearly as
                            well.
                            > > None of these will be FWD.
                            > > On a side note, I'm thinking of using Brat running gear in my VW
                            baja
                            > > bug, using the VW engine in it's normal location. I'm running
                            gear
                            > > reduction boxes that reverse the rotation of the rear drive
                            shafts,
                            > > so all I would have to do is mount the front diff. upside down.
                            BTW
                            > > when using a transaxle such as a corvair in a mid-engine, you
                            reverse
                            > > the side the ring gear is on.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > ~ Paul
                            > > > > aka "Tha Driver"
                            > > >
                            > > > > Easy on the Giggle Cream!
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Joe Hamlin '78 Eldo Biarritz
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ________________________________
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cadillac_Performance_Association/
                            > >
                            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > > Cadillac_Performance_Association-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > >
                            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                            Service.
                          • William Lucke
                            The transverse automatics have a chain drive from the pump to the transmission, then a planetary final. Transverse manuals have spur gear final drive Either
                            Message 13 of 20 , Apr 19, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              The transverse automatics have a chain drive from the pump to the
                              transmission, then a planetary final.
                              Transverse manuals have spur gear final drive
                              Either way, they avoid the drivetrain loss of a hypoid bevel final drive.

                              Which Ferarri body?
                              Dino 246, Ferarri 308 and 328 were all transverse
                              As was the Lamborghini Jalpa (and maybe the Miura, not sure), as well as
                              the Cizeta Moroder V16T (transverse V16 based on two Lambo Urago V8's put
                              together)
                              And my Northstar Fiero with HM282 five speed. It ran 12's on the stock
                              engine. It will be back on the road after performance build soon.
                              I think that the transverse approach IS artful for the reasons I already
                              mentioned... the transmission is simpler, smaller and lighter and more
                              efficient. Mechanical art and elegant design.


                              Will


                              > From: "Paul Angel" <imthadriver@...>
                              >Subject: Re: Engine/drivetrain list
                              >
                              >
                              >--- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, William
                              >Lucke <william.lucke@h...> wrote:
                              > > Why are you determined to have a longitudinal transmission in these
                              > > applications?
                              > >
                              > > Transverse manuals are lighter and more compact and have less
                              >drivetrain
                              > > loss (spur gear final drive instead of hypoid bevel).
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Will
                              >**********
                              >Well, I'm an artist, first of all. Cars are my medium. I just think
                              >they will look better, the weight will be more balanced, & in the
                              >case of the Ferrari-bodied Fiero, look more like it's supposed to. I
                              >don't know of any exotic (except the Fiero :-) that has a transverse
                              >engine.
                              >Spur gear? I thought they were chain drive...(not that it matters).
                              >~ Paul
                              >aka "Tha Driver"
                              >
                              >Easy on the Giggle Cream!



                              --
                              No virus found in this outgoing message.
                              Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                              Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.17 - Release Date: 4/19/2005
                            • Paul Angel
                              ... drive. ... well as ... V8 s put ... stock ... already ... more ... ************* Really? Never noticed that. The guy I m talking to has the 355 Ferrari;
                              Message 14 of 20 , Apr 19, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, William
                                Lucke <william.lucke@h...> wrote:
                                > The transverse automatics have a chain drive from the pump to the
                                > transmission, then a planetary final.
                                > Transverse manuals have spur gear final drive
                                > Either way, they avoid the drivetrain loss of a hypoid bevel final
                                drive.
                                >
                                > Which Ferarri body?
                                > Dino 246, Ferarri 308 and 328 were all transverse
                                > As was the Lamborghini Jalpa (and maybe the Miura, not sure), as
                                well as
                                > the Cizeta Moroder V16T (transverse V16 based on two Lambo Urago
                                V8's put
                                > together)
                                > And my Northstar Fiero with HM282 five speed. It ran 12's on the
                                stock
                                > engine. It will be back on the road after performance build soon.
                                > I think that the transverse approach IS artful for the reasons I
                                already
                                > mentioned... the transmission is simpler, smaller and lighter and
                                more
                                > efficient. Mechanical art and elegant design.
                                >
                                >
                                > Will
                                *************
                                Really? Never noticed that. The guy I'm talking to has the 355
                                Ferrari; They're longitudinal V8s, Right?
                                But strickly as art, the tranverse setups just don't appeal to me.
                                I'm very eccentric, you know. (I'm an artist :-D
                                ~ Paul
                                aka "Tha Driver"

                                Easy on the Giggle Cream!









                                >
                                >
                                > > From: "Paul Angel" <imthadriver@y...>
                                > >Subject: Re: Engine/drivetrain list
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >--- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, William
                                > >Lucke <william.lucke@h...> wrote:
                                > > > Why are you determined to have a longitudinal transmission in
                                these
                                > > > applications?
                                > > >
                                > > > Transverse manuals are lighter and more compact and have less
                                > >drivetrain
                                > > > loss (spur gear final drive instead of hypoid bevel).
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Will
                                > >**********
                                > >Well, I'm an artist, first of all. Cars are my medium. I just think
                                > >they will look better, the weight will be more balanced, & in the
                                > >case of the Ferrari-bodied Fiero, look more like it's supposed to.
                                I
                                > >don't know of any exotic (except the Fiero :-) that has a
                                transverse
                                > >engine.
                                > >Spur gear? I thought they were chain drive...(not that it matters).
                                > >~ Paul
                                > >aka "Tha Driver"
                                > >
                                > >Easy on the Giggle Cream!
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --
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