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RE: [Cadillac_Performance_Association] Re: The '49-'62 V8... anything out there?

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  • Jerry Brown
    Thanks for the additional information re. 425 heads on 500 engine. Are the differences in the combustion chamber so that I don t need to change out valve train
    Message 1 of 25 , Dec 9, 2004
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      Thanks for the additional information re. 425 heads on 500 engine. Are the
      differences in the combustion chamber so that I don't need to change out
      valve train etc.?

      Don't worry too much about the seemingly low hp. ratings, in actual
      performance in a light vehicle there is not of much noticable
      difference, you could mill the heads but a better choice is to swap
      on a set of 425 heads, compression will be about 10:5 and will give
      you and easy 40 hp more, not the best breathing for all out racing,
      but fine up to around 4500 rpm, making for strong street performance
      cheap,
    • jvandecreek25
      ... Are the ... change out ... The late 500 heads have 120cc chambers, while the 425 heads have 96cc chambers, this is where the increase in compression comes
      Message 2 of 25 , Dec 9, 2004
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        --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry
        Brown" <jerome@p...> wrote:
        > Thanks for the additional information re. 425 heads on 500 engine.
        Are the
        > differences in the combustion chamber so that I don't need to
        change out
        > valve train etc.?

        The late 500 heads have 120cc chambers, while the 425 heads have
        96cc chambers, this is where the increase in compression comes from.
        The 425 head has the same valve sizes, and the same intake and
        exhaust ports as the late 500 head, the factory did remove some
        weight by opening up the area where the push-rods pass through, but
        this change has no effect on performance or durability.
        Earlier '69-'73 heads do have better, more direct exhaust ports and
        work better on a race type engine, but the compression goes to over
        12:1 when used with the flat top pistons of a '74-'76 500(and 472)
        and these stock cast pistons are prone to disintegrating at those
        compression ratios, this combination is not at all streetable on
        available pump gas.
        So for "Bang for the buck",
        Install the 425 heads, use a 425 head gasket(can be an old used
        one) to locate the positions of the extra steam holes that will need
        to be drilled in the block deck of the 500, a 3/8" electric drill
        with the appropriate size bit is all that will be required, assemble
        the heads to the block using 500 head gaskets. no other
        modifications or non stock parts are needed.
      • david brode
        Jerry, The 74- 76 500s have 120+ cc chambers and a very small dish. If the bores look good, you could just deck the block for a .040 or so assembled quench,
        Message 3 of 25 , Dec 11, 2004
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          Jerry,

          The '74-'76 500s have 120+ cc chambers and a very small dish. If the
          bores look good, you could just deck the block for a .040" or so
          assembled quench, and whack the heads to get to *maybe* 9.5-1. Fyi -
          KB makes no dish flat tops for it if it needs bored [which I doubt it
          will].

          Another option would be dished KB designed for the early heads. They
          give 10-2-1 or so with the '68-'73 heads [76cc]. Another option is to
          use 107cc 425 heads on your shortblock. They'll put you a little over
          9.5-1. The 425 heads don't flow as well as yours, but a little work
          and they'll do ok. The 76cc heads flow better than yours, btw, but
          not much in stock form. More fyi - 2.11"/1.66&1.77" pontiac valves
          fit the 107 and 120cc heads perfectly. For larger valves on the 76cc,
          aftermarket valves are available from the caddy
          parts vendors.
          Dave




          > Nother question: Is it acceptable practice to mill the heads to
          raise
          > compression a point to a point-and-a-half? If so do you have to go
          to
          > different length pushrods or will there still be sufficient
          clearance
          > between valves and piston? I'm looking for about 9.5:1 CR to help
          out
          > performance. I know the best way to go is usually different pistons
          but I'm
          > trying to keep the costs reasonable.
          >
          > Thanks. You guys have been great with the information and advice.
          >
          > Jerry Brown
        • david brode
          jvandecreek25, The 425 heads will not gain near that much in compression. It has been said that they are 96cc, but I believe they are more like 107cc or so.
          Message 4 of 25 , Dec 11, 2004
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            jvandecreek25,

            The 425 heads will not gain near that much in compression. It has
            been said that they are 96cc, but I believe they are more like 107cc
            or so. That figure comes from experts that I trust.

            CR on a stock engine can vary. Assuming a stock late 500 is 8-1, and
            the heads are 120cc, the 13cc reduction in combustion space would
            raise the CR to 8.7-1. Assuming the stock engine was 8.5-1, the
            change would give 9.25-1.

            It would take a change in combustion space of apx 27.5cc to raise
            compression of an 8.5-1 engine to 10.5-1.
            Dave




            much about the seemingly low hp. ratings, in actual
            > performance in a light vehicle there is not of much noticable
            > difference, you could mill the heads but a better choice is to swap
            > on a set of 425 heads, compression will be about 10:5 and will give
            > you and easy 40 hp more, not the best breathing for all out racing,
            > but fine up to around 4500 rpm, making for strong street
            performance
            > cheap, next best change is a good cam, then an Edelbrock intake.
            > Your 472 Trans will bolt right up.
          • jvandecreek25
            ... 107cc ... and ... After I posted I realised I had over-shot on the amount of compression increase, the figure I gave was one I had seen posted
            Message 5 of 25 , Dec 12, 2004
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              --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, "david
              brode" <dbrode@h...> wrote:
              >
              > jvandecreek25,
              >
              > The 425 heads will not gain near that much in compression. It has
              > been said that they are 96cc, but I believe they are more like
              107cc
              > or so. That figure comes from experts that I trust.
              >
              > CR on a stock engine can vary. Assuming a stock late 500 is 8-1,
              and
              > the heads are 120cc, the 13cc reduction in combustion space would
              > raise the CR to 8.7-1. Assuming the stock engine was 8.5-1, the
              > change would give 9.25-1.
              >
              > It would take a change in combustion space of apx 27.5cc to raise
              > compression of an 8.5-1 engine to 10.5-1.
              > Dave

              After I posted I realised I had over-shot on the amount of
              compression increase, the figure I gave was one I had seen posted
              elsewhere,and I never took time to confirm it.
              However the figure for the 40 hp increase did come directly from Al
              Betker of MTS,one of the most experienced Cadillac builders to be
              found.
              If this 40 hp improvement comes from an increase to only 9.25-1,
              then so much the better.
            • jvandecreek25
              ... the ... Fyi - ... it ... They ... to ... over ... work ... 76cc, ... I m looking for about 9.5:1 CR to help out performance. I know the best way to go is
              Message 6 of 25 , Dec 12, 2004
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                --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, "david
                brode" <dbrode@h...> wrote:
                >
                > Jerry,
                >
                > The '74-'76 500s have 120+ cc chambers and a very small dish. If
                the
                > bores look good, you could just deck the block for a .040" or so
                > assembled quench, and whack the heads to get to *maybe* 9.5-1.
                Fyi -
                > KB makes no dish flat tops for it if it needs bored [which I doubt
                it
                > will].
                >
                > Another option would be dished KB designed for the early heads.
                They
                > give 10-2-1 or so with the '68-'73 heads [76cc]. Another option is
                to
                > use 107cc 425 heads on your shortblock. They'll put you a little
                over
                > 9.5-1. The 425 heads don't flow as well as yours, but a little
                work
                > and they'll do ok. The 76cc heads flow better than yours, btw, but
                > not much in stock form. More fyi - 2.11"/1.66&1.77" pontiac valves
                > fit the 107 and 120cc heads perfectly. For larger valves on the
                76cc,
                > aftermarket valves are available from the caddy
                > parts vendors.
                > Dave


                I'm looking for about 9.5:1 CR to help out performance. I know the
                best way to go is usually different pistons but I'm trying to keep
                the costs reasonable.
                Jerry Brown


                Jerry wanted to keep the costs reasonable, to "deck the block "
                will require a complete disassembly, and is hardly a way to keep the
                cost down, and as he stated he did not want to get into piston
                changes.
                I made my recommendation based on the premise that he wanted an
                inexpensive power increase for a engine that was going into a street
                rod, no it is not the 'ultimate' performance build up, but if it is
                not being used as a race car, there is no need to pursue a lot of
                expensive modifications that are unnecessary for strong street
                performance. Jessie
              • Jerry Brown
                Actually I was speculating about just milling the 500 heads to get the increased compression ratio. Since the engine would be out of the car its no big deal to
                Message 7 of 25 , Dec 12, 2004
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                  Actually I was speculating about just milling the 500 heads to get the
                  increased compression ratio. Since the engine would be out of the car its no
                  big deal to pull the heads and have a valve job done and to mill them for
                  increased compression...So long as you don't booger up the valve train
                  ratios. It seems to me that if you mill the heads, say .040, that it would
                  drop the head lower with respect to the valve train i.e., closer to the
                  center of the camshaft, and might result in any of a number of unintended
                  results.
                  In order to keep everything in the same ratio you would have to account for
                  being .040 closer. Seems to me that pushrods that are .040 shorter should
                  compensate or taking .040 off the top of the valve stem might as long as the
                  keepers would still fit. Doesn't seem right that you wouldn't have to do
                  anything but mill to do the job right. Likewise decking the block would have
                  the same result of moving the head closer to the center of the cam. I guess
                  the right question is can milling or decking be done without unintended
                  catastrophic consequences and if so how should one compensate for the
                  changes.

                  Jerry Brown


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: jvandecreek25 [mailto:jvandecreek@...]
                  Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 1:15 PM
                  To: Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Cadillac_Performance_Association] Re: The '49-'62 V8...
                  anything out there?




                  --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, "david
                  brode" <dbrode@h...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Jerry,
                  >
                  > The '74-'76 500s have 120+ cc chambers and a very small dish. If
                  the
                  > bores look good, you could just deck the block for a .040" or so
                  > assembled quench, and whack the heads to get to *maybe* 9.5-1.
                  Fyi -
                  > KB makes no dish flat tops for it if it needs bored [which I doubt
                  it
                  > will].
                  >
                  > Another option would be dished KB designed for the early heads.
                  They
                  > give 10-2-1 or so with the '68-'73 heads [76cc]. Another option is
                  to
                  > use 107cc 425 heads on your shortblock. They'll put you a little
                  over
                  > 9.5-1. The 425 heads don't flow as well as yours, but a little
                  work
                  > and they'll do ok. The 76cc heads flow better than yours, btw, but
                  > not much in stock form. More fyi - 2.11"/1.66&1.77" pontiac valves
                  > fit the 107 and 120cc heads perfectly. For larger valves on the
                  76cc,
                  > aftermarket valves are available from the caddy
                  > parts vendors.
                  > Dave


                  I'm looking for about 9.5:1 CR to help out performance. I know the
                  best way to go is usually different pistons but I'm trying to keep
                  the costs reasonable.
                  Jerry Brown


                  Jerry wanted to keep the costs reasonable, to "deck the block "
                  will require a complete disassembly, and is hardly a way to keep the
                  cost down, and as he stated he did not want to get into piston
                  changes.
                  I made my recommendation based on the premise that he wanted an
                  inexpensive power increase for a engine that was going into a street
                  rod, no it is not the 'ultimate' performance build up, but if it is
                  not being used as a race car, there is no need to pursue a lot of
                  expensive modifications that are unnecessary for strong street
                  performance. Jessie








                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • david brode
                  jvandecreek25, [bottom post] ... Al ... I have never CC d a pair myself. Al claims they re 96cc, iirc. Other experts claim 107cc. Dave
                  Message 8 of 25 , Dec 12, 2004
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                    jvandecreek25,

                    [bottom post]

                    <dbrode@h...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > jvandecreek25,
                    > >
                    > > The 425 heads will not gain near that much in compression. It has
                    > > been said that they are 96cc, but I believe they are more like
                    > 107cc or so. That figure comes from experts that I trust.
                    > >
                    > > CR on a stock engine can vary. Assuming a stock late 500 is 8-1,
                    > and
                    > > the heads are 120cc, the 13cc reduction in combustion space would
                    > > raise the CR to 8.7-1. Assuming the stock engine was 8.5-1, the
                    > > change would give 9.25-1.
                    > >
                    > > It would take a change in combustion space of apx 27.5cc to raise
                    > > compression of an 8.5-1 engine to 10.5-1.
                    > > Dave
                    >
                    > After I posted I realised I had over-shot on the amount of
                    > compression increase, the figure I gave was one I had seen posted
                    > elsewhere,and I never took time to confirm it.
                    > However the figure for the 40 hp increase did come directly from
                    Al
                    > Betker of MTS,one of the most experienced Cadillac builders to be
                    > found.
                    > If this 40 hp improvement comes from an increase to only 9.25-1,
                    > then so much the better.

                    I have never CC'd a pair myself. Al claims they're 96cc, iirc. Other
                    experts claim 107cc.
                    Dave
                  • david brode
                    Jessie, [bottom]
                    Message 9 of 25 , Dec 12, 2004
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                      Jessie,

                      [bottom]


                      <snip

                      > Jerry wanted to keep the costs reasonable, to "deck the block "
                      > will require a complete disassembly, and is hardly a way to keep
                      the
                      > cost down, and as he stated he did not want to get into piston
                      > changes.
                      > I made my recommendation based on the premise that he wanted an
                      > inexpensive power increase for a engine that was going into a
                      street
                      > rod, no it is not the 'ultimate' performance build up, but if it is
                      > not being used as a race car, there is no need to pursue a lot of
                      > expensive modifications that are unnecessary for strong street
                      > performance. Jessie

                      Well, the reason I suggested decking the block for a tight quench and
                      whacking the heads a bit, was because he said that money was an
                      issue. Decking the block 20-30 thou costs just $65-$80 around here.
                      Cutting the heads .050" or so would be a few more bucks, but not too
                      much. Of course, once it's apart, hot tanmk, cam bearings, etc would
                      cost him some. Personally, I would want to ring and bearing it
                      anyway.

                      The 425 head swap might be a much better bang per buck, I admit. As I
                      see it, for a '74-'76 500, other than the 425 heads, the only other
                      affordable option is to change to the dished KBs and 76cc heads to
                      get any decent compression increase. Even the true flat top KBs on
                      the 120cc heads aren't going to gain much over the very small dish
                      stock late pistons.
                      Dave
                    • Preston III
                      I ve never decked the block, or shaved the heads of a Caddy engine, but if it s anything like a Chevrolet small block, there s a limit that you can go before
                      Message 10 of 25 , Dec 12, 2004
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                        I've never decked the block, or shaved the heads of a Caddy
                        engine, but if it's anything like a Chevrolet small block,
                        there's a limit that you can go before you have to do some
                        machining to the intake manifold too. I expect that if you
                        go past a certain extent, then you'll be in for spending
                        even a few dollars more!

                        Don't forget to inquire as to whether the changing geometry,
                        and clearances of the intake/head surfaces may require a
                        specific gasket, such as something extra thick.

                        Also, in a true performance application, you may consider
                        port matching the intake manifold to the intake side of
                        the cylinder heads, as this is the dimension that will change
                        as you go shaving things.


                        Preston III


                        --- david brode <dbrode@...> wrote:

                        >
                        > Jessie,
                        >
                        > [bottom]
                        >
                        >
                        > <snip
                        >
                        > > Jerry wanted to keep the costs reasonable, to "deck the block "
                        > > will require a complete disassembly, and is hardly a way to keep
                        > the
                        > > cost down, and as he stated he did not want to get into piston
                        > > changes.
                        > > I made my recommendation based on the premise that he wanted an
                        > > inexpensive power increase for a engine that was going into a
                        > street
                        > > rod, no it is not the 'ultimate' performance build up, but if it is
                        > > not being used as a race car, there is no need to pursue a lot of
                        > > expensive modifications that are unnecessary for strong street
                        > > performance. Jessie
                        >
                        > Well, the reason I suggested decking the block for a tight quench and
                        > whacking the heads a bit, was because he said that money was an
                        > issue. Decking the block 20-30 thou costs just $65-$80 around here.
                        > Cutting the heads .050" or so would be a few more bucks, but not too
                        > much. Of course, once it's apart, hot tanmk, cam bearings, etc would
                        > cost him some. Personally, I would want to ring and bearing it
                        > anyway.
                        >
                        > The 425 head swap might be a much better bang per buck, I admit. As I
                        > see it, for a '74-'76 500, other than the 425 heads, the only other
                        > affordable option is to change to the dished KBs and 76cc heads to
                        > get any decent compression increase. Even the true flat top KBs on
                        > the 120cc heads aren't going to gain much over the very small dish
                        > stock late pistons.
                        > Dave
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >




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                      • david brode
                        Jerry, I ve only seen a few late 500s apart, but they all were pretty decent as far as deck to piston. Assuming you have eom pistons and they re good shape,
                        Message 11 of 25 , Dec 12, 2004
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                          Jerry,

                          I've only seen a few late 500s apart, but they all were pretty decent
                          as far as deck to piston. Assuming you have eom pistons and they're
                          good shape, and a 40-50 thou gasket is used, a .020" to *maybe .025"
                          deck cut will give you a nice tight assembled quench. El-cheapo cast
                          replacement pistons are often 20+ thou shorter than oem. I would
                          shoot for 040" assembled quench, regardless. Experts use either
                          Felpro of Corteco gaskets. The Coretcos are a little better, but
                          thicker, btw. .044"-.048" installed, iirc. You may need to stick the
                          piston out of the hole a bit wioth those. The 472/500 heads can be
                          cut way down. 050" is nothing on those, afaik. The 425 heads' deck
                          isn't as thick, and experts say not to cut them much over 040".

                          As far as rocker geometry, you can use shorter pushrods. You can also
                          have a good stock cam re-ground, and that'll reduce the base circle a
                          bit. Maybe enough to make up for the head/block cut. Most of the
                          caddy parts vendors offer re-ground cams, btw, but most grinders will
                          do one for you if you have a decent stock core. A note on that; most
                          grinders want to use profiles with 10+ extra exhaust duration. Afaik,
                          it's not needed on a caddy, esp with the 76cc heads. Even the 120cc
                          heads' stock exhaust port flows well enough to allow same duration on
                          intake and exh. Some experts even say that when ported, the caddy
                          heads flow so well on exhaust side that they use a little less
                          exhaust duration!

                          As far as higher lift cams, you may need to snip a little from the
                          top of the guides for clearance there. The '68 up seals are a joke.
                          You can use the normal old umbrella valve seals from the '67 429
                          caddys. SBchevy springs can be used, but you'll need to get creative
                          with shimming. The caddy springs are very tall. The new behive
                          springs offered for fords and LS1 chevs work better, with a retainer
                          change, as they fit the caddy spring pad, and are taller than std sbc
                          springs. If you have a freindly machine shop, they'll probably have
                          some larger diameter used retainers from something that'll fit the
                          behive springs. Just make sure they fit with the 11/32" valve
                          keepers. Unlike the sbc or behive springs, larger o.d. springs will
                          require pricey spring seats and more machine work. If you don't have
                          a machine shop that you can trust, you might want to buy a spring
                          package from one of the vendors. If you use stock rockers, choose a
                          cam grind with nice slow ramps, as quick ramps are hard on the stock
                          stuff. When cam shopping, make sure to tell them that you want slooow
                          ramps. Fast ramps are hard on the stock T pedistals and rockers.
                          Dave

                          Brown" <jerome@p...> wrote:
                          > Actually I was speculating about just milling the 500 heads to get
                          the
                          > increased compression ratio. Since the engine would be out of the
                          car its no
                          > big deal to pull the heads and have a valve job done and to mill
                          them for
                          > increased compression...So long as you don't booger up the valve
                          train
                          > ratios. It seems to me that if you mill the heads, say .040, that
                          it would
                          > drop the head lower with respect to the valve train i.e., closer to
                          the
                          > center of the camshaft, and might result in any of a number of
                          unintended
                          > results.
                          > In order to keep everything in the same ratio you would have to
                          account for
                          > being .040 closer. Seems to me that pushrods that are .040 shorter
                          should
                          > compensate or taking .040 off the top of the valve stem might as
                          long as the
                          > keepers would still fit. Doesn't seem right that you wouldn't have
                          to do
                          > anything but mill to do the job right. Likewise decking the block
                          would have
                          > the same result of moving the head closer to the center of the cam.
                          I guess
                          > the right question is can milling or decking be done without
                          unintended
                          > catastrophic consequences and if so how should one compensate for
                          the
                          > changes.
                          >
                          > Jerry Brown
                          >
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: jvandecreek25 [mailto:jvandecreek@c...]
                          > Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 1:15 PM
                          > To: Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [Cadillac_Performance_Association] Re: The '49-'62 V8...
                          > anything out there?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, "david
                          > brode" <dbrode@h...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Jerry,
                          > >
                          > > The '74-'76 500s have 120+ cc chambers and a very small dish. If
                          > the
                          > > bores look good, you could just deck the block for a .040" or so
                          > > assembled quench, and whack the heads to get to *maybe* 9.5-1.
                          > Fyi -
                          > > KB makes no dish flat tops for it if it needs bored [which I doubt
                          > it
                          > > will].
                          > >
                          > > Another option would be dished KB designed for the early heads.
                          > They
                          > > give 10-2-1 or so with the '68-'73 heads [76cc]. Another option is
                          > to
                          > > use 107cc 425 heads on your shortblock. They'll put you a little
                          > over
                          > > 9.5-1. The 425 heads don't flow as well as yours, but a little
                          > work
                          > > and they'll do ok. The 76cc heads flow better than yours, btw, but
                          > > not much in stock form. More fyi - 2.11"/1.66&1.77" pontiac valves
                          > > fit the 107 and 120cc heads perfectly. For larger valves on the
                          > 76cc,
                          > > aftermarket valves are available from the caddy
                          > > parts vendors.
                          > > Dave
                          >
                          >
                          > I'm looking for about 9.5:1 CR to help out performance. I know the
                          > best way to go is usually different pistons but I'm trying to keep
                          > the costs reasonable.
                          > Jerry Brown
                          >
                          >
                          > Jerry wanted to keep the costs reasonable, to "deck the block "
                          > will require a complete disassembly, and is hardly a way to keep the
                          > cost down, and as he stated he did not want to get into piston
                          > changes.
                          > I made my recommendation based on the premise that he wanted an
                          > inexpensive power increase for a engine that was going into a street
                          > rod, no it is not the 'ultimate' performance build up, but if it is
                          > not being used as a race car, there is no need to pursue a lot of
                          > expensive modifications that are unnecessary for strong street
                          > performance. Jessie
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        • david brode
                          Preston, Good point. I ve decked a couple of them, but only 10-20. There was no need to cut the intake, or intake side of head. The intake may ride up on the
                          Message 12 of 25 , Dec 12, 2004
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                            Preston,

                            Good point. I've decked a couple of them, but only 10-20. There was
                            no need to cut the intake, or intake side of head. The intake may
                            ride up on the heads a wee bit, but unless a large amount of mat'l
                            was cut, the ports can be re-aligned when port matching.

                            If it was a problem, the intake could be cut, or the intake side of
                            the head, although the valve cover bolt hole bosses there make it a
                            bit tricky.

                            I know that this issue is common, as the .015" shorter 6.735" forged
                            olds rods are often used in the caddy. Another old combo is 7" olds
                            rods and 403" olds pistons. That combo is 40-50 thou short, so I'm
                            sure it's been addressed.
                            Dave


                            III <prestoniii2002@y...> wrote:
                            > I've never decked the block, or shaved the heads of a Caddy
                            > engine, but if it's anything like a Chevrolet small block,
                            > there's a limit that you can go before you have to do some
                            > machining to the intake manifold too. I expect that if you
                            > go past a certain extent, then you'll be in for spending
                            > even a few dollars more!
                            >
                            > Don't forget to inquire as to whether the changing geometry,
                            > and clearances of the intake/head surfaces may require a
                            > specific gasket, such as something extra thick.
                            >
                            > Also, in a true performance application, you may consider
                            > port matching the intake manifold to the intake side of
                            > the cylinder heads, as this is the dimension that will change
                            > as you go shaving things.
                            >
                            >
                            > Preston III
                            <snipped
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