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Re: The '49-'62 V8... anything out there?

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  • Cirilian
    You ll forgive my ignorance but what exactly is the road draft tube? I was considering one of these finned valey covers for my 60. Thanks, Richard ... you,
    Message 1 of 25 , Dec 8, 2004
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      You'll forgive my ignorance but what exactly is the road draft tube?
      I was considering one of these finned valey covers for my "60.
      Thanks,
      Richard

      --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, dave
      <inanno@y...> wrote:
      > Yup, sounds like we're in the same boat. i've just
      > been hoping for an old aluminum single-quad intake to
      > replace my corroded iron one, improve flow, and shed a
      > few pounds (like it'll make a difference in a 6000lb
      > car)... nothing. i considered an old Eldorado
      > three-deuce setup, but i don't know that it'll give
      > enough of an improvement to justify the cost and
      > hassle... maybe it would with some head work, but then
      > it all hits the exhaust manifolds... oh well.
      >
      > i never would have guessed that you could get aluminum
      > heads for a Studebaker motor!
      >
      > There's a guy in Oregon- www.nwspeedequipment.com-
      > selling finned valley pans... they should look sweet
      > on a vintage rodder-style motor. Downside is that you
      > give up the road draft tube... i'm not entirely sure
      > of the repercussions of that. That's about the extent
      > of what i've found myself... supposedly they're going
      > to start producing other parts as well, but we'll see
      > how that goes.
      >
      >
      > ...dave
      >
      > --- jvandecreek25 <jvandecreek@c...> wrote:
      >
      > > I'm installing a '62 390 into my '48 Studebaker
      > > pickup, and have
      > > ran up against the same problem, I do have the
      > > factory Tri-Power and
      > > 2x4 manifolds, would like to get an aluminum 2x4
      > > intake to save some
      > > weight, and have been looking for years now, the
      > > last one I saw
      > > advertised went for over a $1000!
      > > What makes it extra ridiculous is that for my
      > > 'lowly' Studebaker V-
      > > 8, I can get brand new aluminum intakes, water
      > > manifolds, pulleys,
      > > even aluminum cyl. heads ready to bolt on and run
      > > and all at prices
      > > quite reasonable.
      > > Its really kind of wierd given how popular the
      > > early Caddy engines
      > > were in rodding and engine swapping, that about all
      > > that's to be
      > > found for them any more are a few stock rebuild
      > > parts, this for a
      > > engine that in its day was a 100 times more popular
      > > and respected
      > > than the Studebaker was.
      > > It is obvious that the Stude fans retained their
      > > enthusiasim for
      > > the only engine they had, while the Cad fans moved
      > > on to the bigger
      > > 472-500 series, and everything is being produced now
      > > is for these.
      > > At least at this point, the 331-390-429 engines
      > > have "fallen
      > > through the cracks" of hot rodding, as have the
      > > early Olds Rocket's,
      > > although they both still get a lot of lip service in
      > > the hot rodding
      > > community, virtually no company produces anything
      > > for them.
      > > Only question is, will they just die off and fade
      > > from memory, or
      > > will someone step up and make the parts available to
      > > return them to
      > > being a viable choice in hot rodding?
      >
      >
      > =====
      > '63-'64 Chrysler fans- we have a home! Check out
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/63-64Chryslers
      > - -
      > "If elected mayor, my first act will be to kill the whole lot of
      you, and burn your town to cinders!"
      >
      >
      >
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    • dave
      It s a long tube, about 1 diameter that runs from the back of the valley cover and down towards the ground. i believe it serves as a crankcase vent. i don t
      Message 2 of 25 , Dec 8, 2004
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        It's a long tube, about 1" diameter that runs from the
        back of the valley cover and down towards the ground.
        i believe it serves as a crankcase vent. i don't know
        if they had them on all years, but i had them on both
        my '62s, and a spare '59 motor i got.

        ...dave


        --- Cirilian <cirilian@...> wrote:

        >
        > You'll forgive my ignorance but what exactly is the
        > road draft tube?
        > I was considering one of these finned valey covers
        > for my "60.
        > Thanks,
        > Richard
        >


        =====
        '63-'64 Chrysler fans- we have a home! Check out
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/63-64Chryslers
        - -
        "If elected mayor, my first act will be to kill the whole lot of you, and burn your town to cinders!"



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      • Preston III
        The road draft tube is pre-PCV-valve technology. It comes from the top of the engine, and points toward the road, extending into the airflow under the car.
        Message 3 of 25 , Dec 8, 2004
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          The road draft tube is pre-PCV-valve technology.

          It comes from the top of the engine, and points
          toward the road, extending into the airflow
          under the car. It's function was to siphon off
          crankcase vapors when the car was in motion, and
          also serve as a place to vent pressure in the
          crankcase due to engine part failure. Most cars
          had some version prior to the mid 60's.

          Many had a wire screen somewhere near the engine
          mounting that served as a filter to keep bulk
          raw oil from pooring out of the tube. If the
          screen gets "coked" up, and plugged, the gaskets
          throughout the engine could be subjected to internal
          pressure, and oil leaks can come from everywhere as
          the pressure blows it out where it can.

          The PCV valve replaced it with a controlled sucking
          of the internal vapors into the intake manifold.

          Pretty neet idea actually.


          Preston III

          --- dave <inanno@...> wrote:

          > It's a long tube, about 1" diameter that runs from the
          > back of the valley cover and down towards the ground.
          > i believe it serves as a crankcase vent. i don't know
          > if they had them on all years, but i had them on both
          > my '62s, and a spare '59 motor i got.
          >
          > ...dave
          >
          >
          > --- Cirilian <cirilian@...> wrote:
          >
          > >
          > > You'll forgive my ignorance but what exactly is the
          > > road draft tube?
          > > I was considering one of these finned valey covers
          > > for my "60.
          > > Thanks,
          > > Richard
          > >
          >
          >
          > =====
          > '63-'64 Chrysler fans- we have a home! Check out
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/63-64Chryslers
          > - -
          > "If elected mayor, my first act will be to kill the whole lot of you, and burn your town to
          > cinders!"
          >
          >
          >
          > __________________________________
          > Do you Yahoo!?
          > The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
          > http://my.yahoo.com
          >
          >
          >




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        • jvandecreek25
          ... My 62 is pcv equipped, looks all factory.
          Message 4 of 25 , Dec 8, 2004
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            --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, dave
            <inanno@y...> wrote:
            > It's a long tube, about 1" diameter that runs from the
            > back of the valley cover and down towards the ground.
            > i believe it serves as a crankcase vent. i don't know
            > if they had them on all years, but i had them on both
            > my '62s, and a spare '59 motor i got.

            My '62 is pcv equipped, looks all factory.
          • Jerry Brown
            You have to be an old guy to remember crankcase breathers. All the cars had them until the smog nazis took control. Actually no one knew any better than to let
            Message 5 of 25 , Dec 8, 2004
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              You have to be an old guy to remember crankcase breathers. All the cars had
              them until the smog nazis took control. Actually no one knew any better than
              to let the vapors out. It relieved pressure in the crankcase from blowby on
              the cylinders. Now of course that is all handled and recycled back through
              the intake again and then out the exhaust. no doubt better now for our
              lungs. It used to be a really easy way to check engine condition to just put
              your hand over the breather tube with the engine at idle and if you felt the
              pressure you knew there was too much blow by. Rocker arm covers were also
              vented directly to the air back then.
              Jerry Brown (an old guy)

              PS...I'm looking at a 76 Cad 500 engine for my 36 Chev coupe. Engine tests
              out at 123-128 psi on all cyl. so I'm thinking its pretty good. Seller wants
              $375. I'm new to the cad engine market so don't know if this is a good buy
              or not. Any advice?

              -----Original Message-----
              From: dave [mailto:inanno@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 5:11 PM
              To: Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Cadillac_Performance_Association] Re: The '49-'62 V8...
              anything out there?



              It's a long tube, about 1" diameter that runs from the
              back of the valley cover and down towards the ground.
              i believe it serves as a crankcase vent. i don't know
              if they had them on all years, but i had them on both
              my '62s, and a spare '59 motor i got.

              ..dave


              --- Cirilian <cirilian@...> wrote:

              >
              > You'll forgive my ignorance but what exactly is the
              > road draft tube?
              > I was considering one of these finned valey covers
              > for my "60.
              > Thanks,
              > Richard
              >


              =====
              '63-'64 Chrysler fans- we have a home! Check out
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/63-64Chryslers
              - -
              "If elected mayor, my first act will be to kill the whole lot of you, and
              burn your town to cinders!"



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            • Pollorey
              Doesn t sound like a bad price. ... From: Jerry Brown [mailto:jerome@pacifier.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 11:01 PM To:
              Message 6 of 25 , Dec 9, 2004
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                Doesn't sound like a bad price.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Jerry Brown [mailto:jerome@...]
                Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 11:01 PM
                To: Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [Cadillac_Performance_Association] Re: The '49-'62 V8...
                anything out there?


                You have to be an old guy to remember crankcase breathers. All the cars had
                them until the smog nazis took control. Actually no one knew any better than
                to let the vapors out. It relieved pressure in the crankcase from blowby on
                the cylinders. Now of course that is all handled and recycled back through
                the intake again and then out the exhaust. no doubt better now for our
                lungs. It used to be a really easy way to check engine condition to just put
                your hand over the breather tube with the engine at idle and if you felt the
                pressure you knew there was too much blow by. Rocker arm covers were also
                vented directly to the air back then.
                Jerry Brown (an old guy)

                PS...I'm looking at a 76 Cad 500 engine for my 36 Chev coupe. Engine tests
                out at 123-128 psi on all cyl. so I'm thinking its pretty good. Seller wants
                $375. I'm new to the cad engine market so don't know if this is a good buy
                or not. Any advice?

                -----Original Message-----
                From: dave [mailto:inanno@...]
                Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 5:11 PM
                To: Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Cadillac_Performance_Association] Re: The '49-'62 V8...
                anything out there?



                It's a long tube, about 1" diameter that runs from the
                back of the valley cover and down towards the ground.
                i believe it serves as a crankcase vent. i don't know
                if they had them on all years, but i had them on both
                my '62s, and a spare '59 motor i got.

                ..dave


                --- Cirilian <cirilian@...> wrote:

                >
                > You'll forgive my ignorance but what exactly is the
                > road draft tube?
                > I was considering one of these finned valey covers
                > for my "60.
                > Thanks,
                > Richard
                >


                =====
                '63-'64 Chrysler fans- we have a home! Check out
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/63-64Chryslers
                - -
                "If elected mayor, my first act will be to kill the whole lot of you, and
                burn your town to cinders!"



                __________________________________
                Do you Yahoo!?
                The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
                http://my.yahoo.com






                Yahoo! Groups Links













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              • Scott Pearson
                I m not an old guy and I know what a road vent tube is. That s not a bad price for a decent, even rebuildable, Caddy motor. It seems that alot of it depends on
                Message 7 of 25 , Dec 9, 2004
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                  I'm not an old guy and I know what a road vent tube is.

                  That's not a bad price for a decent, even rebuildable, Caddy motor. It seems
                  that alot of it depends on where you live. In my area there's not much
                  demand, so prices are quite low. I've bought several for $100 or even 'you
                  take it out, it's yours'

                  Scott

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Jerry Brown" <jerome@...>
                  To: <Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 10:00 PM
                  Subject: RE: [Cadillac_Performance_Association] Re: The '49-'62 V8...
                  anything out there?


                  >
                  > You have to be an old guy to remember crankcase breathers. All the cars
                  > had
                  > them until the smog nazis took control. Actually no one knew any better
                  > than
                  > to let the vapors out. It relieved pressure in the crankcase from blowby
                  > on
                  > the cylinders. Now of course that is all handled and recycled back through
                  > the intake again and then out the exhaust. no doubt better now for our
                  > lungs. It used to be a really easy way to check engine condition to just
                  > put
                  > your hand over the breather tube with the engine at idle and if you felt
                  > the
                  > pressure you knew there was too much blow by. Rocker arm covers were also
                  > vented directly to the air back then.
                  > Jerry Brown (an old guy)
                  >
                  > PS...I'm looking at a 76 Cad 500 engine for my 36 Chev coupe. Engine tests
                  > out at 123-128 psi on all cyl. so I'm thinking its pretty good. Seller
                  > wants
                  > $375. I'm new to the cad engine market so don't know if this is a good buy
                  > or not. Any advice?
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: dave [mailto:inanno@...]
                  > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 5:11 PM
                  > To: Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [Cadillac_Performance_Association] Re: The '49-'62 V8...
                  > anything out there?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > It's a long tube, about 1" diameter that runs from the
                  > back of the valley cover and down towards the ground.
                  > i believe it serves as a crankcase vent. i don't know
                  > if they had them on all years, but i had them on both
                  > my '62s, and a spare '59 motor i got.
                  >
                  > ..dave
                  >
                  >
                  > --- Cirilian <cirilian@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >>
                  >> You'll forgive my ignorance but what exactly is the
                  >> road draft tube?
                  >> I was considering one of these finned valey covers
                  >> for my "60.
                  >> Thanks,
                  >> Richard
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  > =====
                  > '63-'64 Chrysler fans- we have a home! Check out
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/63-64Chryslers
                  > - -
                  > "If elected mayor, my first act will be to kill the whole lot of you, and
                  > burn your town to cinders!"
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > __________________________________
                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
                  > http://my.yahoo.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • jvandecreek25
                  ... Engine tests ... Seller wants ... good buy ... That s not a bad price if it is complete, if you have to spend extra to replace missing accessories, like
                  Message 8 of 25 , Dec 9, 2004
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                    > Jerry Brown (an old guy)
                    >
                    > PS...I'm looking at a 76 Cad 500 engine for my 36 Chev coupe.
                    Engine tests
                    > out at 123-128 psi on all cyl. so I'm thinking its pretty good.
                    Seller wants
                    > $375. I'm new to the cad engine market so don't know if this is a
                    good buy
                    > or not. Any advice?

                    That's not a bad price if it is complete, if you have to spend
                    extra to replace missing accessories, like manifolds, brackets and
                    pulleys, the price could easily double, so try to find as complete a
                    package as you can, Does it include the trans? most DeVills (RWD)
                    will come with the trans, but Eldos usually don't.
                  • Jerry Brown
                    PS...I m looking at a 76 Cad 500 engine for my 36 Chev coupe. Engine tests ... Seller wants ... good buy ... That s not a bad price if it is complete, if you
                    Message 9 of 25 , Dec 9, 2004
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                      PS...I'm looking at a 76 Cad 500 engine for my 36 Chev coupe.
                      Engine tests
                      > out at 123-128 psi on all cyl. so I'm thinking its pretty good.
                      Seller wants
                      > $375. I'm new to the cad engine market so don't know if this is a
                      good buy
                      > or not. Any advice?

                      That's not a bad price if it is complete, if you have to spend
                      extra to replace missing accessories, like manifolds, brackets and
                      pulleys, the price could easily double, so try to find as complete a
                      package as you can, Does it include the trans? most DeVills (RWD)
                      will come with the trans, but Eldos usually don't.


                      Its complete right down to A/C compressor, alternator, belts, carb,
                      manifolds and some wiring. No transmission but that is no problem as I have
                      a recently rebuilt TH400 from a 74 472 engine that is a basket case. I
                      assume the bell housing is the same whether DeVille or Eldorado. Am I
                      correct?

                      I looked up the HP and Torque for this engine and have to say its less than
                      impressive for the displacement. I can see why so many go to higher
                      compression, performance cam, headers and different intake.

                      Nother question: Is it acceptable practice to mill the heads to raise
                      compression a point to a point-and-a-half? If so do you have to go to
                      different length pushrods or will there still be sufficient clearance
                      between valves and piston? I'm looking for about 9.5:1 CR to help out
                      performance. I know the best way to go is usually different pistons but I'm
                      trying to keep the costs reasonable.

                      Thanks. You guys have been great with the information and advice.

                      Jerry Brown
                    • jvandecreek25
                      ... a ... as I have ... case. I ... Am I ... less than ... raise ... to ... clearance ... out ... pistons but I m ... Don t worry too much about the seemingly
                      Message 10 of 25 , Dec 9, 2004
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                        --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry
                        Brown" <jerome@p...> wrote:
                        > PS...I'm looking at a 76 Cad 500 engine for my 36 Chev coupe.
                        > Engine tests
                        > > out at 123-128 psi on all cyl. so I'm thinking its pretty good.
                        > Seller wants
                        > > $375. I'm new to the cad engine market so don't know if this is a
                        > good buy
                        > > or not. Any advice?
                        >
                        > That's not a bad price if it is complete, if you have to spend
                        > extra to replace missing accessories, like manifolds, brackets and
                        > pulleys, the price could easily double, so try to find as complete
                        a
                        > package as you can, Does it include the trans? most DeVills (RWD)
                        > will come with the trans, but Eldos usually don't.
                        >
                        >
                        > Its complete right down to A/C compressor, alternator, belts, carb,
                        > manifolds and some wiring. No transmission but that is no problem
                        as I have
                        > a recently rebuilt TH400 from a 74 472 engine that is a basket
                        case. I
                        > assume the bell housing is the same whether DeVille or Eldorado.
                        Am I
                        > correct?
                        >
                        > I looked up the HP and Torque for this engine and have to say its
                        less than
                        > impressive for the displacement. I can see why so many go to higher
                        > compression, performance cam, headers and different intake.
                        >
                        > Nother question: Is it acceptable practice to mill the heads to
                        raise
                        > compression a point to a point-and-a-half? If so do you have to go
                        to
                        > different length pushrods or will there still be sufficient
                        clearance
                        > between valves and piston? I'm looking for about 9.5:1 CR to help
                        out
                        > performance. I know the best way to go is usually different
                        pistons but I'm
                        > trying to keep the costs reasonable.
                        >
                        > Thanks. You guys have been great with the information and advice.
                        >
                        > Jerry Brown
                        Don't worry too much about the seemingly low hp. ratings, in actual
                        performance in a light vehicle there is not of much noticable
                        difference, you could mill the heads but a better choice is to swap
                        on a set of 425 heads, compression will be about 10:5 and will give
                        you and easy 40 hp more, not the best breathing for all out racing,
                        but fine up to around 4500 rpm, making for strong street performance
                        cheap, next best change is a good cam, then an Edelbrock intake.
                        Your 472 Trans will bolt right up.
                      • Jerry Brown
                        Thanks for the additional information re. 425 heads on 500 engine. Are the differences in the combustion chamber so that I don t need to change out valve train
                        Message 11 of 25 , Dec 9, 2004
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                          Thanks for the additional information re. 425 heads on 500 engine. Are the
                          differences in the combustion chamber so that I don't need to change out
                          valve train etc.?

                          Don't worry too much about the seemingly low hp. ratings, in actual
                          performance in a light vehicle there is not of much noticable
                          difference, you could mill the heads but a better choice is to swap
                          on a set of 425 heads, compression will be about 10:5 and will give
                          you and easy 40 hp more, not the best breathing for all out racing,
                          but fine up to around 4500 rpm, making for strong street performance
                          cheap,
                        • jvandecreek25
                          ... Are the ... change out ... The late 500 heads have 120cc chambers, while the 425 heads have 96cc chambers, this is where the increase in compression comes
                          Message 12 of 25 , Dec 9, 2004
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                            --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry
                            Brown" <jerome@p...> wrote:
                            > Thanks for the additional information re. 425 heads on 500 engine.
                            Are the
                            > differences in the combustion chamber so that I don't need to
                            change out
                            > valve train etc.?

                            The late 500 heads have 120cc chambers, while the 425 heads have
                            96cc chambers, this is where the increase in compression comes from.
                            The 425 head has the same valve sizes, and the same intake and
                            exhaust ports as the late 500 head, the factory did remove some
                            weight by opening up the area where the push-rods pass through, but
                            this change has no effect on performance or durability.
                            Earlier '69-'73 heads do have better, more direct exhaust ports and
                            work better on a race type engine, but the compression goes to over
                            12:1 when used with the flat top pistons of a '74-'76 500(and 472)
                            and these stock cast pistons are prone to disintegrating at those
                            compression ratios, this combination is not at all streetable on
                            available pump gas.
                            So for "Bang for the buck",
                            Install the 425 heads, use a 425 head gasket(can be an old used
                            one) to locate the positions of the extra steam holes that will need
                            to be drilled in the block deck of the 500, a 3/8" electric drill
                            with the appropriate size bit is all that will be required, assemble
                            the heads to the block using 500 head gaskets. no other
                            modifications or non stock parts are needed.
                          • david brode
                            Jerry, The 74- 76 500s have 120+ cc chambers and a very small dish. If the bores look good, you could just deck the block for a .040 or so assembled quench,
                            Message 13 of 25 , Dec 11, 2004
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                              Jerry,

                              The '74-'76 500s have 120+ cc chambers and a very small dish. If the
                              bores look good, you could just deck the block for a .040" or so
                              assembled quench, and whack the heads to get to *maybe* 9.5-1. Fyi -
                              KB makes no dish flat tops for it if it needs bored [which I doubt it
                              will].

                              Another option would be dished KB designed for the early heads. They
                              give 10-2-1 or so with the '68-'73 heads [76cc]. Another option is to
                              use 107cc 425 heads on your shortblock. They'll put you a little over
                              9.5-1. The 425 heads don't flow as well as yours, but a little work
                              and they'll do ok. The 76cc heads flow better than yours, btw, but
                              not much in stock form. More fyi - 2.11"/1.66&1.77" pontiac valves
                              fit the 107 and 120cc heads perfectly. For larger valves on the 76cc,
                              aftermarket valves are available from the caddy
                              parts vendors.
                              Dave




                              > Nother question: Is it acceptable practice to mill the heads to
                              raise
                              > compression a point to a point-and-a-half? If so do you have to go
                              to
                              > different length pushrods or will there still be sufficient
                              clearance
                              > between valves and piston? I'm looking for about 9.5:1 CR to help
                              out
                              > performance. I know the best way to go is usually different pistons
                              but I'm
                              > trying to keep the costs reasonable.
                              >
                              > Thanks. You guys have been great with the information and advice.
                              >
                              > Jerry Brown
                            • david brode
                              jvandecreek25, The 425 heads will not gain near that much in compression. It has been said that they are 96cc, but I believe they are more like 107cc or so.
                              Message 14 of 25 , Dec 11, 2004
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                                jvandecreek25,

                                The 425 heads will not gain near that much in compression. It has
                                been said that they are 96cc, but I believe they are more like 107cc
                                or so. That figure comes from experts that I trust.

                                CR on a stock engine can vary. Assuming a stock late 500 is 8-1, and
                                the heads are 120cc, the 13cc reduction in combustion space would
                                raise the CR to 8.7-1. Assuming the stock engine was 8.5-1, the
                                change would give 9.25-1.

                                It would take a change in combustion space of apx 27.5cc to raise
                                compression of an 8.5-1 engine to 10.5-1.
                                Dave




                                much about the seemingly low hp. ratings, in actual
                                > performance in a light vehicle there is not of much noticable
                                > difference, you could mill the heads but a better choice is to swap
                                > on a set of 425 heads, compression will be about 10:5 and will give
                                > you and easy 40 hp more, not the best breathing for all out racing,
                                > but fine up to around 4500 rpm, making for strong street
                                performance
                                > cheap, next best change is a good cam, then an Edelbrock intake.
                                > Your 472 Trans will bolt right up.
                              • jvandecreek25
                                ... 107cc ... and ... After I posted I realised I had over-shot on the amount of compression increase, the figure I gave was one I had seen posted
                                Message 15 of 25 , Dec 12, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, "david
                                  brode" <dbrode@h...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > jvandecreek25,
                                  >
                                  > The 425 heads will not gain near that much in compression. It has
                                  > been said that they are 96cc, but I believe they are more like
                                  107cc
                                  > or so. That figure comes from experts that I trust.
                                  >
                                  > CR on a stock engine can vary. Assuming a stock late 500 is 8-1,
                                  and
                                  > the heads are 120cc, the 13cc reduction in combustion space would
                                  > raise the CR to 8.7-1. Assuming the stock engine was 8.5-1, the
                                  > change would give 9.25-1.
                                  >
                                  > It would take a change in combustion space of apx 27.5cc to raise
                                  > compression of an 8.5-1 engine to 10.5-1.
                                  > Dave

                                  After I posted I realised I had over-shot on the amount of
                                  compression increase, the figure I gave was one I had seen posted
                                  elsewhere,and I never took time to confirm it.
                                  However the figure for the 40 hp increase did come directly from Al
                                  Betker of MTS,one of the most experienced Cadillac builders to be
                                  found.
                                  If this 40 hp improvement comes from an increase to only 9.25-1,
                                  then so much the better.
                                • jvandecreek25
                                  ... the ... Fyi - ... it ... They ... to ... over ... work ... 76cc, ... I m looking for about 9.5:1 CR to help out performance. I know the best way to go is
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Dec 12, 2004
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                                    --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, "david
                                    brode" <dbrode@h...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Jerry,
                                    >
                                    > The '74-'76 500s have 120+ cc chambers and a very small dish. If
                                    the
                                    > bores look good, you could just deck the block for a .040" or so
                                    > assembled quench, and whack the heads to get to *maybe* 9.5-1.
                                    Fyi -
                                    > KB makes no dish flat tops for it if it needs bored [which I doubt
                                    it
                                    > will].
                                    >
                                    > Another option would be dished KB designed for the early heads.
                                    They
                                    > give 10-2-1 or so with the '68-'73 heads [76cc]. Another option is
                                    to
                                    > use 107cc 425 heads on your shortblock. They'll put you a little
                                    over
                                    > 9.5-1. The 425 heads don't flow as well as yours, but a little
                                    work
                                    > and they'll do ok. The 76cc heads flow better than yours, btw, but
                                    > not much in stock form. More fyi - 2.11"/1.66&1.77" pontiac valves
                                    > fit the 107 and 120cc heads perfectly. For larger valves on the
                                    76cc,
                                    > aftermarket valves are available from the caddy
                                    > parts vendors.
                                    > Dave


                                    I'm looking for about 9.5:1 CR to help out performance. I know the
                                    best way to go is usually different pistons but I'm trying to keep
                                    the costs reasonable.
                                    Jerry Brown


                                    Jerry wanted to keep the costs reasonable, to "deck the block "
                                    will require a complete disassembly, and is hardly a way to keep the
                                    cost down, and as he stated he did not want to get into piston
                                    changes.
                                    I made my recommendation based on the premise that he wanted an
                                    inexpensive power increase for a engine that was going into a street
                                    rod, no it is not the 'ultimate' performance build up, but if it is
                                    not being used as a race car, there is no need to pursue a lot of
                                    expensive modifications that are unnecessary for strong street
                                    performance. Jessie
                                  • Jerry Brown
                                    Actually I was speculating about just milling the 500 heads to get the increased compression ratio. Since the engine would be out of the car its no big deal to
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Dec 12, 2004
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                                      Actually I was speculating about just milling the 500 heads to get the
                                      increased compression ratio. Since the engine would be out of the car its no
                                      big deal to pull the heads and have a valve job done and to mill them for
                                      increased compression...So long as you don't booger up the valve train
                                      ratios. It seems to me that if you mill the heads, say .040, that it would
                                      drop the head lower with respect to the valve train i.e., closer to the
                                      center of the camshaft, and might result in any of a number of unintended
                                      results.
                                      In order to keep everything in the same ratio you would have to account for
                                      being .040 closer. Seems to me that pushrods that are .040 shorter should
                                      compensate or taking .040 off the top of the valve stem might as long as the
                                      keepers would still fit. Doesn't seem right that you wouldn't have to do
                                      anything but mill to do the job right. Likewise decking the block would have
                                      the same result of moving the head closer to the center of the cam. I guess
                                      the right question is can milling or decking be done without unintended
                                      catastrophic consequences and if so how should one compensate for the
                                      changes.

                                      Jerry Brown


                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: jvandecreek25 [mailto:jvandecreek@...]
                                      Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 1:15 PM
                                      To: Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [Cadillac_Performance_Association] Re: The '49-'62 V8...
                                      anything out there?




                                      --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, "david
                                      brode" <dbrode@h...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Jerry,
                                      >
                                      > The '74-'76 500s have 120+ cc chambers and a very small dish. If
                                      the
                                      > bores look good, you could just deck the block for a .040" or so
                                      > assembled quench, and whack the heads to get to *maybe* 9.5-1.
                                      Fyi -
                                      > KB makes no dish flat tops for it if it needs bored [which I doubt
                                      it
                                      > will].
                                      >
                                      > Another option would be dished KB designed for the early heads.
                                      They
                                      > give 10-2-1 or so with the '68-'73 heads [76cc]. Another option is
                                      to
                                      > use 107cc 425 heads on your shortblock. They'll put you a little
                                      over
                                      > 9.5-1. The 425 heads don't flow as well as yours, but a little
                                      work
                                      > and they'll do ok. The 76cc heads flow better than yours, btw, but
                                      > not much in stock form. More fyi - 2.11"/1.66&1.77" pontiac valves
                                      > fit the 107 and 120cc heads perfectly. For larger valves on the
                                      76cc,
                                      > aftermarket valves are available from the caddy
                                      > parts vendors.
                                      > Dave


                                      I'm looking for about 9.5:1 CR to help out performance. I know the
                                      best way to go is usually different pistons but I'm trying to keep
                                      the costs reasonable.
                                      Jerry Brown


                                      Jerry wanted to keep the costs reasonable, to "deck the block "
                                      will require a complete disassembly, and is hardly a way to keep the
                                      cost down, and as he stated he did not want to get into piston
                                      changes.
                                      I made my recommendation based on the premise that he wanted an
                                      inexpensive power increase for a engine that was going into a street
                                      rod, no it is not the 'ultimate' performance build up, but if it is
                                      not being used as a race car, there is no need to pursue a lot of
                                      expensive modifications that are unnecessary for strong street
                                      performance. Jessie








                                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    • david brode
                                      jvandecreek25, [bottom post] ... Al ... I have never CC d a pair myself. Al claims they re 96cc, iirc. Other experts claim 107cc. Dave
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Dec 12, 2004
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                                        jvandecreek25,

                                        [bottom post]

                                        <dbrode@h...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > jvandecreek25,
                                        > >
                                        > > The 425 heads will not gain near that much in compression. It has
                                        > > been said that they are 96cc, but I believe they are more like
                                        > 107cc or so. That figure comes from experts that I trust.
                                        > >
                                        > > CR on a stock engine can vary. Assuming a stock late 500 is 8-1,
                                        > and
                                        > > the heads are 120cc, the 13cc reduction in combustion space would
                                        > > raise the CR to 8.7-1. Assuming the stock engine was 8.5-1, the
                                        > > change would give 9.25-1.
                                        > >
                                        > > It would take a change in combustion space of apx 27.5cc to raise
                                        > > compression of an 8.5-1 engine to 10.5-1.
                                        > > Dave
                                        >
                                        > After I posted I realised I had over-shot on the amount of
                                        > compression increase, the figure I gave was one I had seen posted
                                        > elsewhere,and I never took time to confirm it.
                                        > However the figure for the 40 hp increase did come directly from
                                        Al
                                        > Betker of MTS,one of the most experienced Cadillac builders to be
                                        > found.
                                        > If this 40 hp improvement comes from an increase to only 9.25-1,
                                        > then so much the better.

                                        I have never CC'd a pair myself. Al claims they're 96cc, iirc. Other
                                        experts claim 107cc.
                                        Dave
                                      • david brode
                                        Jessie, [bottom]
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Dec 12, 2004
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Jessie,

                                          [bottom]


                                          <snip

                                          > Jerry wanted to keep the costs reasonable, to "deck the block "
                                          > will require a complete disassembly, and is hardly a way to keep
                                          the
                                          > cost down, and as he stated he did not want to get into piston
                                          > changes.
                                          > I made my recommendation based on the premise that he wanted an
                                          > inexpensive power increase for a engine that was going into a
                                          street
                                          > rod, no it is not the 'ultimate' performance build up, but if it is
                                          > not being used as a race car, there is no need to pursue a lot of
                                          > expensive modifications that are unnecessary for strong street
                                          > performance. Jessie

                                          Well, the reason I suggested decking the block for a tight quench and
                                          whacking the heads a bit, was because he said that money was an
                                          issue. Decking the block 20-30 thou costs just $65-$80 around here.
                                          Cutting the heads .050" or so would be a few more bucks, but not too
                                          much. Of course, once it's apart, hot tanmk, cam bearings, etc would
                                          cost him some. Personally, I would want to ring and bearing it
                                          anyway.

                                          The 425 head swap might be a much better bang per buck, I admit. As I
                                          see it, for a '74-'76 500, other than the 425 heads, the only other
                                          affordable option is to change to the dished KBs and 76cc heads to
                                          get any decent compression increase. Even the true flat top KBs on
                                          the 120cc heads aren't going to gain much over the very small dish
                                          stock late pistons.
                                          Dave
                                        • Preston III
                                          I ve never decked the block, or shaved the heads of a Caddy engine, but if it s anything like a Chevrolet small block, there s a limit that you can go before
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Dec 12, 2004
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            I've never decked the block, or shaved the heads of a Caddy
                                            engine, but if it's anything like a Chevrolet small block,
                                            there's a limit that you can go before you have to do some
                                            machining to the intake manifold too. I expect that if you
                                            go past a certain extent, then you'll be in for spending
                                            even a few dollars more!

                                            Don't forget to inquire as to whether the changing geometry,
                                            and clearances of the intake/head surfaces may require a
                                            specific gasket, such as something extra thick.

                                            Also, in a true performance application, you may consider
                                            port matching the intake manifold to the intake side of
                                            the cylinder heads, as this is the dimension that will change
                                            as you go shaving things.


                                            Preston III


                                            --- david brode <dbrode@...> wrote:

                                            >
                                            > Jessie,
                                            >
                                            > [bottom]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > <snip
                                            >
                                            > > Jerry wanted to keep the costs reasonable, to "deck the block "
                                            > > will require a complete disassembly, and is hardly a way to keep
                                            > the
                                            > > cost down, and as he stated he did not want to get into piston
                                            > > changes.
                                            > > I made my recommendation based on the premise that he wanted an
                                            > > inexpensive power increase for a engine that was going into a
                                            > street
                                            > > rod, no it is not the 'ultimate' performance build up, but if it is
                                            > > not being used as a race car, there is no need to pursue a lot of
                                            > > expensive modifications that are unnecessary for strong street
                                            > > performance. Jessie
                                            >
                                            > Well, the reason I suggested decking the block for a tight quench and
                                            > whacking the heads a bit, was because he said that money was an
                                            > issue. Decking the block 20-30 thou costs just $65-$80 around here.
                                            > Cutting the heads .050" or so would be a few more bucks, but not too
                                            > much. Of course, once it's apart, hot tanmk, cam bearings, etc would
                                            > cost him some. Personally, I would want to ring and bearing it
                                            > anyway.
                                            >
                                            > The 425 head swap might be a much better bang per buck, I admit. As I
                                            > see it, for a '74-'76 500, other than the 425 heads, the only other
                                            > affordable option is to change to the dished KBs and 76cc heads to
                                            > get any decent compression increase. Even the true flat top KBs on
                                            > the 120cc heads aren't going to gain much over the very small dish
                                            > stock late pistons.
                                            > Dave
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >




                                            __________________________________
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                                          • david brode
                                            Jerry, I ve only seen a few late 500s apart, but they all were pretty decent as far as deck to piston. Assuming you have eom pistons and they re good shape,
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Dec 12, 2004
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Jerry,

                                              I've only seen a few late 500s apart, but they all were pretty decent
                                              as far as deck to piston. Assuming you have eom pistons and they're
                                              good shape, and a 40-50 thou gasket is used, a .020" to *maybe .025"
                                              deck cut will give you a nice tight assembled quench. El-cheapo cast
                                              replacement pistons are often 20+ thou shorter than oem. I would
                                              shoot for 040" assembled quench, regardless. Experts use either
                                              Felpro of Corteco gaskets. The Coretcos are a little better, but
                                              thicker, btw. .044"-.048" installed, iirc. You may need to stick the
                                              piston out of the hole a bit wioth those. The 472/500 heads can be
                                              cut way down. 050" is nothing on those, afaik. The 425 heads' deck
                                              isn't as thick, and experts say not to cut them much over 040".

                                              As far as rocker geometry, you can use shorter pushrods. You can also
                                              have a good stock cam re-ground, and that'll reduce the base circle a
                                              bit. Maybe enough to make up for the head/block cut. Most of the
                                              caddy parts vendors offer re-ground cams, btw, but most grinders will
                                              do one for you if you have a decent stock core. A note on that; most
                                              grinders want to use profiles with 10+ extra exhaust duration. Afaik,
                                              it's not needed on a caddy, esp with the 76cc heads. Even the 120cc
                                              heads' stock exhaust port flows well enough to allow same duration on
                                              intake and exh. Some experts even say that when ported, the caddy
                                              heads flow so well on exhaust side that they use a little less
                                              exhaust duration!

                                              As far as higher lift cams, you may need to snip a little from the
                                              top of the guides for clearance there. The '68 up seals are a joke.
                                              You can use the normal old umbrella valve seals from the '67 429
                                              caddys. SBchevy springs can be used, but you'll need to get creative
                                              with shimming. The caddy springs are very tall. The new behive
                                              springs offered for fords and LS1 chevs work better, with a retainer
                                              change, as they fit the caddy spring pad, and are taller than std sbc
                                              springs. If you have a freindly machine shop, they'll probably have
                                              some larger diameter used retainers from something that'll fit the
                                              behive springs. Just make sure they fit with the 11/32" valve
                                              keepers. Unlike the sbc or behive springs, larger o.d. springs will
                                              require pricey spring seats and more machine work. If you don't have
                                              a machine shop that you can trust, you might want to buy a spring
                                              package from one of the vendors. If you use stock rockers, choose a
                                              cam grind with nice slow ramps, as quick ramps are hard on the stock
                                              stuff. When cam shopping, make sure to tell them that you want slooow
                                              ramps. Fast ramps are hard on the stock T pedistals and rockers.
                                              Dave

                                              Brown" <jerome@p...> wrote:
                                              > Actually I was speculating about just milling the 500 heads to get
                                              the
                                              > increased compression ratio. Since the engine would be out of the
                                              car its no
                                              > big deal to pull the heads and have a valve job done and to mill
                                              them for
                                              > increased compression...So long as you don't booger up the valve
                                              train
                                              > ratios. It seems to me that if you mill the heads, say .040, that
                                              it would
                                              > drop the head lower with respect to the valve train i.e., closer to
                                              the
                                              > center of the camshaft, and might result in any of a number of
                                              unintended
                                              > results.
                                              > In order to keep everything in the same ratio you would have to
                                              account for
                                              > being .040 closer. Seems to me that pushrods that are .040 shorter
                                              should
                                              > compensate or taking .040 off the top of the valve stem might as
                                              long as the
                                              > keepers would still fit. Doesn't seem right that you wouldn't have
                                              to do
                                              > anything but mill to do the job right. Likewise decking the block
                                              would have
                                              > the same result of moving the head closer to the center of the cam.
                                              I guess
                                              > the right question is can milling or decking be done without
                                              unintended
                                              > catastrophic consequences and if so how should one compensate for
                                              the
                                              > changes.
                                              >
                                              > Jerry Brown
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > -----Original Message-----
                                              > From: jvandecreek25 [mailto:jvandecreek@c...]
                                              > Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 1:15 PM
                                              > To: Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Subject: [Cadillac_Performance_Association] Re: The '49-'62 V8...
                                              > anything out there?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- In Cadillac_Performance_Association@yahoogroups.com, "david
                                              > brode" <dbrode@h...> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Jerry,
                                              > >
                                              > > The '74-'76 500s have 120+ cc chambers and a very small dish. If
                                              > the
                                              > > bores look good, you could just deck the block for a .040" or so
                                              > > assembled quench, and whack the heads to get to *maybe* 9.5-1.
                                              > Fyi -
                                              > > KB makes no dish flat tops for it if it needs bored [which I doubt
                                              > it
                                              > > will].
                                              > >
                                              > > Another option would be dished KB designed for the early heads.
                                              > They
                                              > > give 10-2-1 or so with the '68-'73 heads [76cc]. Another option is
                                              > to
                                              > > use 107cc 425 heads on your shortblock. They'll put you a little
                                              > over
                                              > > 9.5-1. The 425 heads don't flow as well as yours, but a little
                                              > work
                                              > > and they'll do ok. The 76cc heads flow better than yours, btw, but
                                              > > not much in stock form. More fyi - 2.11"/1.66&1.77" pontiac valves
                                              > > fit the 107 and 120cc heads perfectly. For larger valves on the
                                              > 76cc,
                                              > > aftermarket valves are available from the caddy
                                              > > parts vendors.
                                              > > Dave
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > I'm looking for about 9.5:1 CR to help out performance. I know the
                                              > best way to go is usually different pistons but I'm trying to keep
                                              > the costs reasonable.
                                              > Jerry Brown
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Jerry wanted to keep the costs reasonable, to "deck the block "
                                              > will require a complete disassembly, and is hardly a way to keep the
                                              > cost down, and as he stated he did not want to get into piston
                                              > changes.
                                              > I made my recommendation based on the premise that he wanted an
                                              > inexpensive power increase for a engine that was going into a street
                                              > rod, no it is not the 'ultimate' performance build up, but if it is
                                              > not being used as a race car, there is no need to pursue a lot of
                                              > expensive modifications that are unnecessary for strong street
                                              > performance. Jessie
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            • david brode
                                              Preston, Good point. I ve decked a couple of them, but only 10-20. There was no need to cut the intake, or intake side of head. The intake may ride up on the
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Dec 12, 2004
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Preston,

                                                Good point. I've decked a couple of them, but only 10-20. There was
                                                no need to cut the intake, or intake side of head. The intake may
                                                ride up on the heads a wee bit, but unless a large amount of mat'l
                                                was cut, the ports can be re-aligned when port matching.

                                                If it was a problem, the intake could be cut, or the intake side of
                                                the head, although the valve cover bolt hole bosses there make it a
                                                bit tricky.

                                                I know that this issue is common, as the .015" shorter 6.735" forged
                                                olds rods are often used in the caddy. Another old combo is 7" olds
                                                rods and 403" olds pistons. That combo is 40-50 thou short, so I'm
                                                sure it's been addressed.
                                                Dave


                                                III <prestoniii2002@y...> wrote:
                                                > I've never decked the block, or shaved the heads of a Caddy
                                                > engine, but if it's anything like a Chevrolet small block,
                                                > there's a limit that you can go before you have to do some
                                                > machining to the intake manifold too. I expect that if you
                                                > go past a certain extent, then you'll be in for spending
                                                > even a few dollars more!
                                                >
                                                > Don't forget to inquire as to whether the changing geometry,
                                                > and clearances of the intake/head surfaces may require a
                                                > specific gasket, such as something extra thick.
                                                >
                                                > Also, in a true performance application, you may consider
                                                > port matching the intake manifold to the intake side of
                                                > the cylinder heads, as this is the dimension that will change
                                                > as you go shaving things.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Preston III
                                                <snipped
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