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Re: CMC: Waterproof-Breathable Jackets

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  • Maureen Maguire
    Hi, go to Marmot Mountain Works in Berkely and talk to the store manager there. He can give you the whole rundown and show you some products. Personally, there
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 30, 2007
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      Hi, go to Marmot Mountain Works in Berkely and talk to
      the store manager there. He can give you the whole
      rundown and show you some products. Personally, there
      is nothing like an Arteryx product but hey, you may
      need to sell your car to own one. Roger is right,
      gortex and other membrane fabric is only for really
      cold weather, which we rarely see here in CA,
      especially at the lower elevations. If you exert hard
      enough to sweat your own condensation builds up and
      cannot escape if the weather is wet as well. You will
      be ringing wet from the inside out. I'm going with a
      silk tshirt, a wool shirt, and a cheap polyurethane
      coated jacket for real downpour protection. All from
      kmart. Maureen
      http://www.marmotmountain.com/

      --- Roger Reid <rogerreid3@...> wrote:

      > Hi,
      >
      > 1. Did your gortex "let in" moisture, or did it
      > contain your own moisture?
      > (That is often the problem, i.e. the gortex is
      > still working, but you do not have sufficient
      > wicking layer/are working extra hard/combination of
      > both).
      >
      > 2. Failing that, the earlier advices about
      > reproofing with Nixwax, or looking at a Golite are
      > very sound points.
      >
      > Roger
      >
      > .
      >
      >
      >
      > mp5of8 <mp5of8@...> wrote:
      > Hi I'm looking for some info on Jackets. I
      > need to replace my old
      > North Face Gore-tex Mtn Jacket. I used it today
      > while it was snowing
      > and it soaked through, it isn't on warranty either.
      > There are a lot
      > of new coatings and material on the market, some are
      > a lot cheaper
      > than Gore-tex but I don't know if any are solid
      > products or are they
      > hype? Who is making the best product? What is the
      > state of the art?
      > What have you done well with? I'd like to find
      > something that will
      > work for both winter and summer.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.



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    • michael Palmer
      Thanks Maureen and Roger. I don t know if the wetness came from inside or out. It was a wet snow and we were working and sweating but I also had on 2 and 3
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 31, 2007
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        Thanks Maureen and Roger.  I don't know if the wetness came from inside or out.  It was a wet snow and we were working and sweating but I also had on 2 and 3 layers of synthetic clothing.  In any case at the end of the day the shell jacket was too wet.  If I'd been spending the night out I would have been concerned.

        Maureen Maguire <mlmaguire1@...> wrote:
        Hi, go to Marmot Mountain Works in Berkely and talk to
        the store manager there. He can give you the whole
        rundown and show you some products. Personally, there
        is nothing like an Arteryx product but hey, you may
        need to sell your car to own one. Roger is right,
        gortex and other membrane fabric is only for really
        cold weather, which we rarely see here in CA,
        especially at the lower elevations. If you exert hard
        enough to sweat your own condensation builds up and
        cannot escape if the weather is wet as well. You will
        be ringing wet from the inside out. I'm going with a
        silk tshirt, a wool shirt, and a cheap polyurethane
        coated jacket for real downpour protection. All from
        kmart. Maureen
        http://www.marmotmo untain.com/

        --- Roger Reid <rogerreid3@yahoo. com> wrote:

        > Hi,
        >
        > 1. Did your gortex "let in" moisture, or did it
        > contain your own moisture?
        > (That is often the problem, i.e. the gortex is
        > still working, but you do not have sufficient
        > wicking layer/are working extra hard/combination of
        > both).
        >
        > 2. Failing that, the earlier advices about
        > reproofing with Nixwax, or looking at a Golite are
        > very sound points.
        >
        > Roger
        >
        > .
        >
        >
        >
        > mp5of8 <mp5of8@yahoo. com> wrote:
        > Hi I'm looking for some info on Jackets. I
        > need to replace my old
        > North Face Gore-tex Mtn Jacket. I used it today
        > while it was snowing
        > and it soaked through, it isn't on warranty either.
        > There are a lot
        > of new coatings and material on the market, some are
        > a lot cheaper
        > than Gore-tex but I don't know if any are solid
        > products or are they
        > hype? Who is making the best product? What is the
        > state of the art?
        > What have you done well with? I'd like to find
        > something that will
        > work for both winter and summer.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------ --------- --------- ---
        > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
        Be a better friend, newshound, and
        know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ



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      • Clem Noname
        Michael, you will get wet form the inside if you do not vent. However, your layers would probably be wet from the skin outward. If your goretex membrane
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 31, 2007
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          Michael,


          you will get wet form the inside if you do not vent.
          However, your layers would probably be wet from the
          skin outward. If your goretex membrane failed, you
          would see wetness from the outside toward the skin,
          usually around your shoulders and upper back.

          All permeable barriers work by having a
          temperature/moisture difference between the inside and
          outside. The greater the differential the more
          effective this will work.

          I have a friend who would sweat inside his coat and
          claimed that his NEW coat leaked. Marmot, bless their
          corporate hearts, kept replacing his coat and he kept
          getting the same result. He finally learned that
          wearing too many layers caused the perspiration vapor
          to condense in his layers before it reached the
          membrane so it could be vented out. He then learned to
          take off and put on layers based on his activity
          level.

          In extreme cold, even when dry and sunny, a vapor
          permeable layer is important. I did an experiment with
          and without the goretex layer in minus temperatures
          and heavy exertion to get me sweating. Without an
          outer layer, the perspiration vapor froze on the outer
          most layer of insulation leaving me with an ice crust
          on the inside of the outermost insulation layer. With
          a vapor pearmeable layer, no ice crust! Basically, the
          goretex(or whatever you choose) created a warm space
          between the outer insulation and the cold outside.
          This created a warmer than ambient temp area between
          the insulation and coat so that the vapor remained in
          that state through the insulation so the vapor could
          be diffused though the coat before it condensed and
          froze.
          Everyone is now required to wear a vapor permeable
          layer in extreme cold working conditions, in addition
          to being instructed on layering and venting.

          While sweating in your coat is not a failure of the
          coat, a dirty coat will fail (from your sweat or the
          environment) by plugging up the membrane and will not
          allow the vapor to vent even in ideal conditions. A
          coat with a worn out water repellent will also absorb
          a lot of moisture from the outside and give you a
          clammy, cold and wet feeling. You can tell if the DWR
          water repellent is worn because water will not bead
          and the fabric changes color from absorbing water.

          On the other hand, most of the manufacturers will
          honor their lifetime warranty. I think my buddy got 3
          or 4 new coats from Marmot over a year. Good luck on
          your new coat!

          --- michael Palmer <mp5of8@...> wrote:

          > Thanks Maureen and Roger. I don't know if the
          > wetness came from inside or out. It was a wet snow
          > and we were working and sweating but I also had on 2
          > and 3 layers of synthetic clothing. In any case at
          > the end of the day the shell jacket was too wet. If
          > I'd been spending the night out I would have been
          > concerned.
          >
          > Maureen Maguire <mlmaguire1@...> wrote:
          > Hi, go to Marmot Mountain Works in Berkely and
          > talk to
          > the store manager there. He can give you the whole
          > rundown and show you some products. Personally,
          > there
          > is nothing like an Arteryx product but hey, you may
          > need to sell your car to own one. Roger is right,
          > gortex and other membrane fabric is only for really
          > cold weather, which we rarely see here in CA,
          > especially at the lower elevations. If you exert
          > hard
          > enough to sweat your own condensation builds up and
          > cannot escape if the weather is wet as well. You
          > will
          > be ringing wet from the inside out. I'm going with a
          > silk tshirt, a wool shirt, and a cheap polyurethane
          > coated jacket for real downpour protection. All from
          > kmart. Maureen
          > http://www.marmotmountain.com/
          >
          > --- Roger Reid <rogerreid3@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Hi,
          > >
          > > 1. Did your gortex "let in" moisture, or did it
          > > contain your own moisture?
          > > (That is often the problem, i.e. the gortex is
          > > still working, but you do not have sufficient
          > > wicking layer/are working extra hard/combination
          > of
          > > both).
          > >
          > > 2. Failing that, the earlier advices about
          > > reproofing with Nixwax, or looking at a Golite are
          > > very sound points.
          > >
          > > Roger
          > >
          > > .
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > mp5of8 <mp5of8@...> wrote:
          > > Hi I'm looking for some info on Jackets. I
          > > need to replace my old
          > > North Face Gore-tex Mtn Jacket. I used it today
          > > while it was snowing
          > > and it soaked through, it isn't on warranty
          > either.
          > > There are a lot
          > > of new coatings and material on the market, some
          > are
          > > a lot cheaper
          > > than Gore-tex but I don't know if any are solid
          > > products or are they
          > > hype? Who is making the best product? What is the
          > > state of the art?
          > > What have you done well with? I'd like to find
          > > something that will
          > > work for both winter and summer.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ---------------------------------
          > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
          >
          >
          __________________________________________________________
          > Be a better friend, newshound, and
          > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
          >
          http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them
          > fast with Yahoo! Search.



          ____________________________________________________________________________________
          Looking for last minute shopping deals?
          Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
        • John Lechmanik
          Even with proper layers underneath the shell you can still over sweat your shell. There are a lot of factors. The relative humidity outside, temps, all
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 31, 2007
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            Even with proper layers underneath the shell you can still "over sweat" your shell.  There are a lot of factors.  The relative humidity outside, temps, all that stuff determines how well your shell will allow moisture to escape.   Also the temperature inside your shell will also help determine how well the shell will breathe.  If you are overheating, then that reduces the shells ability to breathe.
             
            I would look more carefully about regulating your temperature (sweating is bad :-) and see if the jacket works before spending a lot of money to get a jacket that won't be any better than the one you have.....
             
            John


            From: SFCMC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SFCMC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of michael Palmer
            Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 7:21 AM
            To: SFCMC@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: CMC: Waterproof-Breathable Jackets

            Thanks Maureen and Roger.  I don't know if the wetness came from inside or out.  It was a wet snow and we were working and sweating but I also had on 2 and 3 layers of synthetic clothing.  In any case at the end of the day the shell jacket was too wet.  If I'd been spending the night out I would have been concerned.

            Maureen Maguire <mlmaguire1@yahoo. com> wrote:

            Hi, go to Marmot Mountain Works in Berkely and talk to
            the store manager there. He can give you the whole
            rundown and show you some products. Personally, there
            is nothing like an Arteryx product but hey, you may
            need to sell your car to own one. Roger is right,
            gortex and other membrane fabric is only for really
            cold weather, which we rarely see here in CA,
            especially at the lower elevations. If you exert hard
            enough to sweat your own condensation builds up and
            cannot escape if the weather is wet as well. You will
            be ringing wet from the inside out. I'm going with a
            silk tshirt, a wool shirt, and a cheap polyurethane
            coated jacket for real downpour protection. All from
            kmart. Maureen
            http://www.marmotmo untain.com/

            --- Roger Reid <rogerreid3@yahoo. com> wrote:

            > Hi,
            >
            > 1. Did your gortex "let in" moisture, or did it
            > contain your own moisture?
            > (That is often the problem, i.e. the gortex is
            > still working, but you do not have sufficient
            > wicking layer/are working extra hard/combination of
            > both).
            >
            > 2. Failing that, the earlier advices about
            > reproofing with Nixwax, or looking at a Golite are
            > very sound points.
            >
            > Roger
            >
            > .
            >
            >
            >
            > mp5of8 <mp5of8@yahoo. com> wrote:
            > Hi I'm looking for some info on Jackets. I
            > need to replace my old
            > North Face Gore-tex Mtn Jacket. I used it today
            > while it was snowing
            > and it soaked through, it isn't on warranty either.
            > There are a lot
            > of new coatings and material on the market, some are
            > a lot cheaper
            > than Gore-tex but I don't know if any are solid
            > products or are they
            > hype? Who is making the best product? What is the
            > state of the art?
            > What have you done well with? I'd like to find
            > something that will
            > work for both winter and summer.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------ --------- --------- ---
            > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

            ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
            Be a better friend, newshound, and
            know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ



            Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

          • Susan
            Hi MIke, It is possible wear out your gore-tex even if you wash and treat it. I had to replace my old North Face favorite after about 10 years when it started
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 1, 2008
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              Hi MIke,

              It is possible wear out your gore-tex even if you wash and treat it.
              I had to replace my old North Face favorite after about 10 years when
              it started seeping water this fall. Usually I use the gore-tex shell
              when I'm out in a mix of rain and snow. I never put more than a
              silkweight base layer and light fleece under it if I'm active (and
              I'm always the first person to get cold). I bought an Arcteryx beta
              SL from ebay after looking around a lot.

              I also got a used Patagonia stretch element jacket from ebay a few
              months ago. It seems to be completely windproof and waterproof (I've
              soaked it in the rain walking my dog as an experiment) but it still
              stretches and breathes like a soft shell and doesn't have that
              annoying crunchy feel/sound to it in cold weather.

              Hope this helps.

              Susan

              --- In SFCMC@yahoogroups.com, "mp5of8" <mp5of8@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi I'm looking for some info on Jackets. I need to replace my old
              > North Face Gore-tex Mtn Jacket. I used it today while it was
              snowing
              > and it soaked through, it isn't on warranty either. There are a lot
              > of new coatings and material on the market, some are a lot cheaper
              > than Gore-tex but I don't know if any are solid products or are they
              > hype? Who is making the best product? What is the state of the
              art?
              > What have you done well with? I'd like to find something that will
              > work for both winter and summer.
              >
            • Roger Reid
              Michael, Hi, I see that you ve got really sound comment from Clem, Maureen and others; such that I should not make any further comment. Except...... you add
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 2, 2008
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                Michael,  Hi,
                 
                I see that you've got really sound comment from Clem, Maureen and others; such that I should not make any further comment.  Except...... you add that you had 2 or three layers of SYNTHETIC clothing......
                 
                1. Yes, reproof Goretex if the clothing is older/well used.  Tectron spray is very good - although not as good as when the article left the factory.
                2. However, your using synthetic layers is pretty certain to be, or at least add to, the problem.  Synthetics can handle water moisture, but not water vapor; whereas wool can handle both.  To consider the classic example of gortex boots:  yes, the Gortex people are right when they say that Gortex can breathe.  It can breath better than a polly bag over your foot.  But cotton socks can retain <200% of their weight in water, and so almost-ensures chaffing and blisters.  Wicking socks with a polly outer cannot handle water vapor, and that can cause blisters.  One needs a wicking sock with a wool outer, which retains both water vapor and moisture until they can seep out through the Gortex in their own good time.  (Interestingly, Keene say that their Event boots are better than Gortex since they can breath almost as well as your standard breathable, but that is another story). 
                3. So, by all means reproof your favorite gear to see if that works and saves you a small fortune, but replace the synthetic layers with Smartwool or Icebreaker.  (Arcterix deservedly had a great reputation, but they seem to have "lost the plot" in recent years). 
                Roger
                 


                michael Palmer <mp5of8@...> wrote:
                Thanks Maureen and Roger.  I don't know if the wetness came from inside or out.  It was a wet snow and we were working and sweating but I also had on 2 and 3 layers of synthetic clothing.  In any case at the end of the day the shell jacket was too wet.  If I'd been spending the night out I would have been concerned.

                Maureen Maguire <mlmaguire1@yahoo. com> wrote:
                Hi, go to Marmot Mountain Works in Berkely and talk to
                the store manager there. He can give you the whole
                rundown and show you some products. Personally, there
                is nothing like an Arteryx product but hey, you may
                need to sell your car to own one. Roger is right,
                gortex and other membrane fabric is only for really
                cold weather, which we rarely see here in CA,
                especially at the lower elevations. If you exert hard
                enough to sweat your own condensation builds up and
                cannot escape if the weather is wet as well. You will
                be ringing wet from the inside out. I'm going with a
                silk tshirt, a wool shirt, and a cheap polyurethane
                coated jacket for real downpour protection. All from
                kmart. Maureen
                http://www.marmotmo untain.com/

                --- Roger Reid <rogerreid3@yahoo. com> wrote:

                > Hi,
                >
                > 1. Did your gortex "let in" moisture, or did it
                > contain your own moisture?
                > (That is often the problem, i.e. the gortex is
                > still working, but you do not have sufficient
                > wicking layer/are working extra hard/combination of
                > both).
                >
                > 2. Failing that, the earlier advices about
                > reproofing with Nixwax, or looking at a Golite are
                > very sound points.
                >
                > Roger
                >
                > .
                >
                >
                >
                > mp5of8 <mp5of8@yahoo. com> wrote:
                > Hi I'm looking for some info on Jackets. I
                > need to replace my old
                > North Face Gore-tex Mtn Jacket. I used it today
                > while it was snowing
                > and it soaked through, it isn't on warranty either.
                > There are a lot
                > of new coatings and material on the market, some are
                > a lot cheaper
                > than Gore-tex but I don't know if any are solid
                > products or are they
                > hype? Who is making the best product? What is the
                > state of the art?
                > What have you done well with? I'd like to find
                > something that will
                > work for both winter and summer.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

                ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                Be a better friend, newshound, and
                know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ



                Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.


                Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

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