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Re: CMC: Waterproof-Breathable Jackets

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  • Roger Reid
    Hi, 1. Did your gortex let in moisture, or did it contain your own moisture? (That is often the problem, i.e. the gortex is still working, but you do not
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 30, 2007
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      Hi,
       
      1.  Did your gortex "let in" moisture, or did it contain your own moisture? 
      (That is often the problem, i.e. the gortex is still working, but you do not have sufficient wicking layer/are working extra hard/combination of both).
       
      2.  Failing that, the earlier advices about reproofing with Nixwax, or looking at a Golite are very sound points.
       
      Roger
       
      .
       


      mp5of8 <mp5of8@...> wrote:
      Hi I'm looking for some info on Jackets. I need to replace my old
      North Face Gore-tex Mtn Jacket. I used it today while it was snowing
      and it soaked through, it isn't on warranty either. There are a lot
      of new coatings and material on the market, some are a lot cheaper
      than Gore-tex but I don't know if any are solid products or are they
      hype? Who is making the best product? What is the state of the art?
      What have you done well with? I'd like to find something that will
      work for both winter and summer.



      Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

    • Maureen Maguire
      Hi, go to Marmot Mountain Works in Berkely and talk to the store manager there. He can give you the whole rundown and show you some products. Personally, there
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 30, 2007
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        Hi, go to Marmot Mountain Works in Berkely and talk to
        the store manager there. He can give you the whole
        rundown and show you some products. Personally, there
        is nothing like an Arteryx product but hey, you may
        need to sell your car to own one. Roger is right,
        gortex and other membrane fabric is only for really
        cold weather, which we rarely see here in CA,
        especially at the lower elevations. If you exert hard
        enough to sweat your own condensation builds up and
        cannot escape if the weather is wet as well. You will
        be ringing wet from the inside out. I'm going with a
        silk tshirt, a wool shirt, and a cheap polyurethane
        coated jacket for real downpour protection. All from
        kmart. Maureen
        http://www.marmotmountain.com/

        --- Roger Reid <rogerreid3@...> wrote:

        > Hi,
        >
        > 1. Did your gortex "let in" moisture, or did it
        > contain your own moisture?
        > (That is often the problem, i.e. the gortex is
        > still working, but you do not have sufficient
        > wicking layer/are working extra hard/combination of
        > both).
        >
        > 2. Failing that, the earlier advices about
        > reproofing with Nixwax, or looking at a Golite are
        > very sound points.
        >
        > Roger
        >
        > .
        >
        >
        >
        > mp5of8 <mp5of8@...> wrote:
        > Hi I'm looking for some info on Jackets. I
        > need to replace my old
        > North Face Gore-tex Mtn Jacket. I used it today
        > while it was snowing
        > and it soaked through, it isn't on warranty either.
        > There are a lot
        > of new coatings and material on the market, some are
        > a lot cheaper
        > than Gore-tex but I don't know if any are solid
        > products or are they
        > hype? Who is making the best product? What is the
        > state of the art?
        > What have you done well with? I'd like to find
        > something that will
        > work for both winter and summer.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.



        ____________________________________________________________________________________
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      • michael Palmer
        Thanks Maureen and Roger. I don t know if the wetness came from inside or out. It was a wet snow and we were working and sweating but I also had on 2 and 3
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 31, 2007
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          Thanks Maureen and Roger.  I don't know if the wetness came from inside or out.  It was a wet snow and we were working and sweating but I also had on 2 and 3 layers of synthetic clothing.  In any case at the end of the day the shell jacket was too wet.  If I'd been spending the night out I would have been concerned.

          Maureen Maguire <mlmaguire1@...> wrote:
          Hi, go to Marmot Mountain Works in Berkely and talk to
          the store manager there. He can give you the whole
          rundown and show you some products. Personally, there
          is nothing like an Arteryx product but hey, you may
          need to sell your car to own one. Roger is right,
          gortex and other membrane fabric is only for really
          cold weather, which we rarely see here in CA,
          especially at the lower elevations. If you exert hard
          enough to sweat your own condensation builds up and
          cannot escape if the weather is wet as well. You will
          be ringing wet from the inside out. I'm going with a
          silk tshirt, a wool shirt, and a cheap polyurethane
          coated jacket for real downpour protection. All from
          kmart. Maureen
          http://www.marmotmo untain.com/

          --- Roger Reid <rogerreid3@yahoo. com> wrote:

          > Hi,
          >
          > 1. Did your gortex "let in" moisture, or did it
          > contain your own moisture?
          > (That is often the problem, i.e. the gortex is
          > still working, but you do not have sufficient
          > wicking layer/are working extra hard/combination of
          > both).
          >
          > 2. Failing that, the earlier advices about
          > reproofing with Nixwax, or looking at a Golite are
          > very sound points.
          >
          > Roger
          >
          > .
          >
          >
          >
          > mp5of8 <mp5of8@yahoo. com> wrote:
          > Hi I'm looking for some info on Jackets. I
          > need to replace my old
          > North Face Gore-tex Mtn Jacket. I used it today
          > while it was snowing
          > and it soaked through, it isn't on warranty either.
          > There are a lot
          > of new coatings and material on the market, some are
          > a lot cheaper
          > than Gore-tex but I don't know if any are solid
          > products or are they
          > hype? Who is making the best product? What is the
          > state of the art?
          > What have you done well with? I'd like to find
          > something that will
          > work for both winter and summer.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------ --------- --------- ---
          > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

          ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
          Be a better friend, newshound, and
          know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ



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        • Clem Noname
          Michael, you will get wet form the inside if you do not vent. However, your layers would probably be wet from the skin outward. If your goretex membrane
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 31, 2007
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            Michael,


            you will get wet form the inside if you do not vent.
            However, your layers would probably be wet from the
            skin outward. If your goretex membrane failed, you
            would see wetness from the outside toward the skin,
            usually around your shoulders and upper back.

            All permeable barriers work by having a
            temperature/moisture difference between the inside and
            outside. The greater the differential the more
            effective this will work.

            I have a friend who would sweat inside his coat and
            claimed that his NEW coat leaked. Marmot, bless their
            corporate hearts, kept replacing his coat and he kept
            getting the same result. He finally learned that
            wearing too many layers caused the perspiration vapor
            to condense in his layers before it reached the
            membrane so it could be vented out. He then learned to
            take off and put on layers based on his activity
            level.

            In extreme cold, even when dry and sunny, a vapor
            permeable layer is important. I did an experiment with
            and without the goretex layer in minus temperatures
            and heavy exertion to get me sweating. Without an
            outer layer, the perspiration vapor froze on the outer
            most layer of insulation leaving me with an ice crust
            on the inside of the outermost insulation layer. With
            a vapor pearmeable layer, no ice crust! Basically, the
            goretex(or whatever you choose) created a warm space
            between the outer insulation and the cold outside.
            This created a warmer than ambient temp area between
            the insulation and coat so that the vapor remained in
            that state through the insulation so the vapor could
            be diffused though the coat before it condensed and
            froze.
            Everyone is now required to wear a vapor permeable
            layer in extreme cold working conditions, in addition
            to being instructed on layering and venting.

            While sweating in your coat is not a failure of the
            coat, a dirty coat will fail (from your sweat or the
            environment) by plugging up the membrane and will not
            allow the vapor to vent even in ideal conditions. A
            coat with a worn out water repellent will also absorb
            a lot of moisture from the outside and give you a
            clammy, cold and wet feeling. You can tell if the DWR
            water repellent is worn because water will not bead
            and the fabric changes color from absorbing water.

            On the other hand, most of the manufacturers will
            honor their lifetime warranty. I think my buddy got 3
            or 4 new coats from Marmot over a year. Good luck on
            your new coat!

            --- michael Palmer <mp5of8@...> wrote:

            > Thanks Maureen and Roger. I don't know if the
            > wetness came from inside or out. It was a wet snow
            > and we were working and sweating but I also had on 2
            > and 3 layers of synthetic clothing. In any case at
            > the end of the day the shell jacket was too wet. If
            > I'd been spending the night out I would have been
            > concerned.
            >
            > Maureen Maguire <mlmaguire1@...> wrote:
            > Hi, go to Marmot Mountain Works in Berkely and
            > talk to
            > the store manager there. He can give you the whole
            > rundown and show you some products. Personally,
            > there
            > is nothing like an Arteryx product but hey, you may
            > need to sell your car to own one. Roger is right,
            > gortex and other membrane fabric is only for really
            > cold weather, which we rarely see here in CA,
            > especially at the lower elevations. If you exert
            > hard
            > enough to sweat your own condensation builds up and
            > cannot escape if the weather is wet as well. You
            > will
            > be ringing wet from the inside out. I'm going with a
            > silk tshirt, a wool shirt, and a cheap polyurethane
            > coated jacket for real downpour protection. All from
            > kmart. Maureen
            > http://www.marmotmountain.com/
            >
            > --- Roger Reid <rogerreid3@...> wrote:
            >
            > > Hi,
            > >
            > > 1. Did your gortex "let in" moisture, or did it
            > > contain your own moisture?
            > > (That is often the problem, i.e. the gortex is
            > > still working, but you do not have sufficient
            > > wicking layer/are working extra hard/combination
            > of
            > > both).
            > >
            > > 2. Failing that, the earlier advices about
            > > reproofing with Nixwax, or looking at a Golite are
            > > very sound points.
            > >
            > > Roger
            > >
            > > .
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > mp5of8 <mp5of8@...> wrote:
            > > Hi I'm looking for some info on Jackets. I
            > > need to replace my old
            > > North Face Gore-tex Mtn Jacket. I used it today
            > > while it was snowing
            > > and it soaked through, it isn't on warranty
            > either.
            > > There are a lot
            > > of new coatings and material on the market, some
            > are
            > > a lot cheaper
            > > than Gore-tex but I don't know if any are solid
            > > products or are they
            > > hype? Who is making the best product? What is the
            > > state of the art?
            > > What have you done well with? I'd like to find
            > > something that will
            > > work for both winter and summer.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
            >
            >
            __________________________________________________________
            > Be a better friend, newshound, and
            > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
            >
            http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them
            > fast with Yahoo! Search.



            ____________________________________________________________________________________
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          • John Lechmanik
            Even with proper layers underneath the shell you can still over sweat your shell. There are a lot of factors. The relative humidity outside, temps, all
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 31, 2007
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              Even with proper layers underneath the shell you can still "over sweat" your shell.  There are a lot of factors.  The relative humidity outside, temps, all that stuff determines how well your shell will allow moisture to escape.   Also the temperature inside your shell will also help determine how well the shell will breathe.  If you are overheating, then that reduces the shells ability to breathe.
               
              I would look more carefully about regulating your temperature (sweating is bad :-) and see if the jacket works before spending a lot of money to get a jacket that won't be any better than the one you have.....
               
              John


              From: SFCMC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SFCMC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of michael Palmer
              Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 7:21 AM
              To: SFCMC@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: CMC: Waterproof-Breathable Jackets

              Thanks Maureen and Roger.  I don't know if the wetness came from inside or out.  It was a wet snow and we were working and sweating but I also had on 2 and 3 layers of synthetic clothing.  In any case at the end of the day the shell jacket was too wet.  If I'd been spending the night out I would have been concerned.

              Maureen Maguire <mlmaguire1@yahoo. com> wrote:

              Hi, go to Marmot Mountain Works in Berkely and talk to
              the store manager there. He can give you the whole
              rundown and show you some products. Personally, there
              is nothing like an Arteryx product but hey, you may
              need to sell your car to own one. Roger is right,
              gortex and other membrane fabric is only for really
              cold weather, which we rarely see here in CA,
              especially at the lower elevations. If you exert hard
              enough to sweat your own condensation builds up and
              cannot escape if the weather is wet as well. You will
              be ringing wet from the inside out. I'm going with a
              silk tshirt, a wool shirt, and a cheap polyurethane
              coated jacket for real downpour protection. All from
              kmart. Maureen
              http://www.marmotmo untain.com/

              --- Roger Reid <rogerreid3@yahoo. com> wrote:

              > Hi,
              >
              > 1. Did your gortex "let in" moisture, or did it
              > contain your own moisture?
              > (That is often the problem, i.e. the gortex is
              > still working, but you do not have sufficient
              > wicking layer/are working extra hard/combination of
              > both).
              >
              > 2. Failing that, the earlier advices about
              > reproofing with Nixwax, or looking at a Golite are
              > very sound points.
              >
              > Roger
              >
              > .
              >
              >
              >
              > mp5of8 <mp5of8@yahoo. com> wrote:
              > Hi I'm looking for some info on Jackets. I
              > need to replace my old
              > North Face Gore-tex Mtn Jacket. I used it today
              > while it was snowing
              > and it soaked through, it isn't on warranty either.
              > There are a lot
              > of new coatings and material on the market, some are
              > a lot cheaper
              > than Gore-tex but I don't know if any are solid
              > products or are they
              > hype? Who is making the best product? What is the
              > state of the art?
              > What have you done well with? I'd like to find
              > something that will
              > work for both winter and summer.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------ --------- --------- ---
              > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

              ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
              Be a better friend, newshound, and
              know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ



              Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

            • Susan
              Hi MIke, It is possible wear out your gore-tex even if you wash and treat it. I had to replace my old North Face favorite after about 10 years when it started
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 1, 2008
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                Hi MIke,

                It is possible wear out your gore-tex even if you wash and treat it.
                I had to replace my old North Face favorite after about 10 years when
                it started seeping water this fall. Usually I use the gore-tex shell
                when I'm out in a mix of rain and snow. I never put more than a
                silkweight base layer and light fleece under it if I'm active (and
                I'm always the first person to get cold). I bought an Arcteryx beta
                SL from ebay after looking around a lot.

                I also got a used Patagonia stretch element jacket from ebay a few
                months ago. It seems to be completely windproof and waterproof (I've
                soaked it in the rain walking my dog as an experiment) but it still
                stretches and breathes like a soft shell and doesn't have that
                annoying crunchy feel/sound to it in cold weather.

                Hope this helps.

                Susan

                --- In SFCMC@yahoogroups.com, "mp5of8" <mp5of8@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi I'm looking for some info on Jackets. I need to replace my old
                > North Face Gore-tex Mtn Jacket. I used it today while it was
                snowing
                > and it soaked through, it isn't on warranty either. There are a lot
                > of new coatings and material on the market, some are a lot cheaper
                > than Gore-tex but I don't know if any are solid products or are they
                > hype? Who is making the best product? What is the state of the
                art?
                > What have you done well with? I'd like to find something that will
                > work for both winter and summer.
                >
              • Roger Reid
                Michael, Hi, I see that you ve got really sound comment from Clem, Maureen and others; such that I should not make any further comment. Except...... you add
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 2, 2008
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                  Michael,  Hi,
                   
                  I see that you've got really sound comment from Clem, Maureen and others; such that I should not make any further comment.  Except...... you add that you had 2 or three layers of SYNTHETIC clothing......
                   
                  1. Yes, reproof Goretex if the clothing is older/well used.  Tectron spray is very good - although not as good as when the article left the factory.
                  2. However, your using synthetic layers is pretty certain to be, or at least add to, the problem.  Synthetics can handle water moisture, but not water vapor; whereas wool can handle both.  To consider the classic example of gortex boots:  yes, the Gortex people are right when they say that Gortex can breathe.  It can breath better than a polly bag over your foot.  But cotton socks can retain <200% of their weight in water, and so almost-ensures chaffing and blisters.  Wicking socks with a polly outer cannot handle water vapor, and that can cause blisters.  One needs a wicking sock with a wool outer, which retains both water vapor and moisture until they can seep out through the Gortex in their own good time.  (Interestingly, Keene say that their Event boots are better than Gortex since they can breath almost as well as your standard breathable, but that is another story). 
                  3. So, by all means reproof your favorite gear to see if that works and saves you a small fortune, but replace the synthetic layers with Smartwool or Icebreaker.  (Arcterix deservedly had a great reputation, but they seem to have "lost the plot" in recent years). 
                  Roger
                   


                  michael Palmer <mp5of8@...> wrote:
                  Thanks Maureen and Roger.  I don't know if the wetness came from inside or out.  It was a wet snow and we were working and sweating but I also had on 2 and 3 layers of synthetic clothing.  In any case at the end of the day the shell jacket was too wet.  If I'd been spending the night out I would have been concerned.

                  Maureen Maguire <mlmaguire1@yahoo. com> wrote:
                  Hi, go to Marmot Mountain Works in Berkely and talk to
                  the store manager there. He can give you the whole
                  rundown and show you some products. Personally, there
                  is nothing like an Arteryx product but hey, you may
                  need to sell your car to own one. Roger is right,
                  gortex and other membrane fabric is only for really
                  cold weather, which we rarely see here in CA,
                  especially at the lower elevations. If you exert hard
                  enough to sweat your own condensation builds up and
                  cannot escape if the weather is wet as well. You will
                  be ringing wet from the inside out. I'm going with a
                  silk tshirt, a wool shirt, and a cheap polyurethane
                  coated jacket for real downpour protection. All from
                  kmart. Maureen
                  http://www.marmotmo untain.com/

                  --- Roger Reid <rogerreid3@yahoo. com> wrote:

                  > Hi,
                  >
                  > 1. Did your gortex "let in" moisture, or did it
                  > contain your own moisture?
                  > (That is often the problem, i.e. the gortex is
                  > still working, but you do not have sufficient
                  > wicking layer/are working extra hard/combination of
                  > both).
                  >
                  > 2. Failing that, the earlier advices about
                  > reproofing with Nixwax, or looking at a Golite are
                  > very sound points.
                  >
                  > Roger
                  >
                  > .
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > mp5of8 <mp5of8@yahoo. com> wrote:
                  > Hi I'm looking for some info on Jackets. I
                  > need to replace my old
                  > North Face Gore-tex Mtn Jacket. I used it today
                  > while it was snowing
                  > and it soaked through, it isn't on warranty either.
                  > There are a lot
                  > of new coatings and material on the market, some are
                  > a lot cheaper
                  > than Gore-tex but I don't know if any are solid
                  > products or are they
                  > hype? Who is making the best product? What is the
                  > state of the art?
                  > What have you done well with? I'd like to find
                  > something that will
                  > work for both winter and summer.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                  > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

                  ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                  Be a better friend, newshound, and
                  know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ



                  Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.


                  Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

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