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a question about the Grinnell and Miller follow on survey

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  • Bob and Susan Steele
    Greeting fellow birders, a couple months ago I heard that one of the UC schools was going to survey the spots done by Grinnell and Miller. I said about time.
    Message 1 of 6 , Jun 8, 2008
      Greeting fellow birders, a couple months ago I heard that one of the UC schools was going to survey the spots done by Grinnell and Miller. I said about time. Now I hear that in addition to point counts they are also collecting (or trying to) a series of 10 of every species in the areas they are looking at. Now, I have to say o no. Now that would be a great idea if it were say 10 starlings, but I'm not so keen of them attempting to take, say, 10 Sooty Grouse from Kern Co. Why you may ask. Well, I'd be surprised if there are 10 Sooty Grouse in Kern Co. Some species are rare everywhere and some locally so.

      There is an interesting write up by Grinnell about Gray Vireo in Kern. He waxes eloquent about blasting 1 or 2, says what great habitat there is, and how there should be tons of these birds around. I live within 15 miles of that spot. I wander in there every year looking for Gray Vireo. Have never found them and probably never will. My guess is that there were never very many. Who knows, maybe Grinnell's taking finished them off.

      So, is it 10 of every species and for what purpose?

      If anyone out there who knows the real story, please pass it along. Thanks.

      Susan Steele
      Inyokern, CA

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • erpfromca@aol.com
      In a message dated 6/8/2008 7:56:23 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, steele7@verizon.net writes: If anyone out there who knows the real story, please pass it
      Message 2 of 6 , Jun 8, 2008
        In a message dated 6/8/2008 7:56:23 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
        steele7@... writes:

        If anyone out there who knows the real story, please pass it along. Thanks.




        I can't answer the question specifically, but I will take the opportunity to
        put in a plug for the Western Field Ornithologists meeting (in San Mateo Oct
        9-12) where Carla Cicero will be talking about the Grinnell Resurvey Project
        _http://mvz.berkeley.edu/Grinnell/_ (http://mvz.berkeley.edu/Grinnell/)
        and you can likely get answers to all your questions about this ambitious
        project to resurvey several areas of CA for vertebrate diversity and abundance.

        Also lots of great field trips, workshops and scientific presentations:
        _http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/_ (http://www.wfo-cbrc.org/)



        Ed Pandolfino
        Carmichael, CA






        (http://mvz.berkeley.edu/Grinnell/)








        **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
        Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
        (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Lori Conrad
        Hi all Having just returned from one of the exact areas where the Grinnell Team are doing their so-called re-survey (Erskine Creek, near Bodfish, Kern Cty), I
        Message 3 of 6 , Jun 8, 2008
          Hi all

          Having just returned from one of the exact areas where the Grinnell Team are doing their so-called re-survey (Erskine Creek, near Bodfish, Kern Cty), I can say that hearing gunshots & knowing what they were shooting at was disconcerting at best. When Bob Barnes informed us that they had collected a wrentit with a full brood patch, I wondered if the lives (deaths) of those baby wrentits would be worth the parent bird's ultimate sacrifice. With the technology available today, (ie: DNA, blood samples, feather analysis, etc.), I say no, absolutely not. Now I read that they plan to take 10 of each species? This method is totally unnecessary in this day & age. I'm sorry.

          Just my 2 cents.

          Lori Conrad
          Hermosa Beach, CA

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Bob and Susan Steele
          To: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 7:57 PM
          Subject: [CALBIRDS] a question about the Grinnell and Miller follow on survey


          Greeting fellow birders, a couple months ago I heard that one of the UC schools was going to survey the spots done by Grinnell and Miller. I said about time. Now I hear that in addition to point counts they are also collecting (or trying to) a series of 10 of every species in the areas they are looking at. Now, I have to say o no. Now that would be a great idea if it were say 10 starlings, but I'm not so keen of them attempting to take, say, 10 Sooty Grouse from Kern Co. Why you may ask. Well, I'd be surprised if there are 10 Sooty Grouse in Kern Co. Some species are rare everywhere and some locally so.

          There is an interesting write up by Grinnell about Gray Vireo in Kern. He waxes eloquent about blasting 1 or 2, says what great habitat there is, and how there should be tons of these birds around. I live within 15 miles of that spot. I wander in there every year looking for Gray Vireo. Have never found them and probably never will. My guess is that there were never very many. Who knows, maybe Grinnell's taking finished them off.

          So, is it 10 of every species and for what purpose?

          If anyone out there who knows the real story, please pass it along. Thanks.

          Susan Steele
          Inyokern, CA

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Kimball Garrett
          Birders, This is not the forum to revive tired old debates about scientific collecting; those who object to collecting on moral grounds will never be convinced
          Message 4 of 6 , Jun 9, 2008
            Birders,

            This is not the forum to revive tired old debates about scientific
            collecting; those who object to collecting on moral grounds will never
            be convinced to change their "religion" and those who object out of
            ignorance of the scientific value of specimens are better served reading
            the literature than arguing on a listserve. I particularly recommend
            the papers listed at:
            http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~ccicero/AOU_Collections/Useful_Papers.html
            #Collections_and_Collecting

            and in particular Van Remsen's 1995 paper in Bird Conservation
            International, a PDF of which is available at:
            http://www.museum.lsu.edu/~Remsen/AVECOL2.html

            I note that the original poster in this thread is supportive of
            scientific collecting, having said: "Now that would be a great idea if
            it were say 10 starlings [that were collected]", and I applaud her for
            that. However, I think it is important to defend the honor of Joseph
            Grinnell, the most important figure in the history of California
            ornithology and bird conservation, from accusations made in this thread.
            In particular,

            > There is an interesting write up by Grinnell about Gray Vireo in Kern.
            He
            > waxes eloquent about blasting 1 or 2, says what great habitat there
            is,
            > and how there should be tons of these birds around. I live within 15
            > miles of that spot. I wander in there every year looking for Gray
            Vireo.
            > Have never found them and probably never will. My guess is that there
            > were never very many. Who knows, maybe Grinnell's taking finished them
            > off.

            The notion that Joseph Grinnell single-handedly eliminated Gray Vireos
            from Kern County is, simply, absurd. Grinnell collected (oh, excuse me,
            "blasted") "1 or 2", and I doubt that there are more than a half-dozen
            other Gray Vireo specimens in the world's collections from Kern County.
            To chalk up the species' alleged disappearance from Kern to the
            collection of a couple of specimens, and to ignore all of the following
            issues is unrealistic. What about habitat change from grazing, mining,
            off-road vehicles, fires set by yahoos, invasive plant species, and
            climate change? What about the superabundance of Brown-headed Cowbirds
            and the increase of various human-subsidized predators like Common
            Ravens? Why has the Gray Vireo declined in most of its former California
            range even though Grinnell (and others) collected only a few of them in
            only a few portions of their range?

            Similarly, the Grinnell Resurvey Project will not eliminate Sooty Grouse
            from Kern County or anywhere else. The limited bird collecting
            associated with that project is conducted under the same restrictions
            under which all scientific collectors operate. Rare species cannot be
            collected, period. And certain additional species for which there is
            conservation concern can only be collected under a fully vetted MOU,
            which means that the State of California and the U. S. Fish and Wildlife
            Service must approve in each instance, above and beyond their very
            strict standards for issuing collecting permits in the first place.

            The Grinnell Resurvey Project will tell us a great deal about how the
            avifauna of California has changed in the last century because it will
            compare data carefully collected by many of the same methodologies 100
            years apart. The limited number of specimens collected will tell us
            many important things that cannot be determined from observation and
            from trapping and releasing birds (though those remain the dominant two
            methodologies in the Project). For example, exact reproductive condition
            is determined from dissection of the reproductive tract (have breeding
            seasons changed with climate change?); tissues and organs are preserved
            for potential analysis of toxins and other contaminants (are
            environmental contaminants impacting bird populations?); blood and
            tissue samples allow a suite of molecular analyses (have there been
            genetic/evolutionary changes in populations over the past 100 years?);
            exact spectrophotometric and measurement data can be taken (and
            re-taken, over and over) on the preserved skins (are there discernable
            shifts in morphology of bird species at Grinnell's old collecting
            localities? Have subspecies boundaries changes?). The list goes on and
            on.

            PLEASE, people. Be aware of and spend your talents and energies
            addressing the REAL conservation issues our birds face. We should be
            celebrating the MVZ's Grinnell Resurvey Project, and celebrating the
            work that Grinnell and his contemporaries did in laying the foundation
            of our knowledge of California's avifauna. And I echo Ed Pandolfino's
            invitation to all of you to attend the WFO meeting in October and hear
            Carla Cicero's talk about this important project.

            Kimball

            Kimball L. Garrett
            Ornithology Collections Manager
            Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
            900 Exposition Blvd.
            Los Angeles CA 90007
            (213) 763-3368
            (213) 746-2999 FAX
            kgarrett@...

            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf
            > Of Bob and Susan Steele
            > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 7:57 PM
            > To: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [CALBIRDS] a question about the Grinnell and Miller follow on
            > survey
            >
            > Greeting fellow birders, a couple months ago I heard that one of the
            UC
            > schools was going to survey the spots done by Grinnell and Miller. I
            said
            > about time. Now I hear that in addition to point counts they are also
            > collecting (or trying to) a series of 10 of every species in the areas
            > they are looking at. Now, I have to say o no. Now that would be a
            > great idea if it were say 10 starlings, but I'm not so keen of them
            > attempting to take, say, 10 Sooty Grouse from Kern Co. Why you may
            ask.
            > Well, I'd be surprised if there are 10 Sooty Grouse in Kern Co. Some
            > species are rare everywhere and some locally so.
          • JOHN STERLING
            I just wanted to add to Kimball s excellent post that Grinnell was also the primary force behind keeping Yosemite National Park a place where people can
            Message 5 of 6 , Jun 9, 2008
              I just wanted to add to Kimball's excellent post that Grinnell was also the
              primary force behind keeping Yosemite National Park a place where people can
              observe wildlife in their natural habitats. Without his energy and vision,
              much of Yosemite would have turned into a theme park (and for a time it even
              had a zoo in the valley that Grinnell finally convinced the Park Service to
              eliminate). He was also a major force behind promoting responsible wildlife
              management policy in the National Park System. We still enjoy his profound
              legacy that goes far beyond his collection of scientific specimens.



              John Sterling

              VVVVVVVVVV



              26 Palm Ave

              Woodland, CA 95695

              cell 530 908-3836

              ani@...



              From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of Kimball Garrett
              Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 10:10 AM
              To: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] a question about the Grinnell and Miller follow on
              survey



              Birders,

              This is not the forum to revive tired old debates about scientific
              collecting; those who object to collecting on moral grounds will never
              be convinced to change their "religion" and those who object out of
              ignorance of the scientific value of specimens are better served reading
              the literature than arguing on a listserve. I particularly recommend
              the papers listed at:
              http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~ccicero/AOU_Collections/Useful_Papers.html
              #Collections_and_Collecting

              and in particular Van Remsen's 1995 paper in Bird Conservation
              International, a PDF of which is available at:
              http://www.museum.lsu.edu/~Remsen/AVECOL2.html

              I note that the original poster in this thread is supportive of
              scientific collecting, having said: "Now that would be a great idea if
              it were say 10 starlings [that were collected]", and I applaud her for
              that. However, I think it is important to defend the honor of Joseph
              Grinnell, the most important figure in the history of California
              ornithology and bird conservation, from accusations made in this thread.
              In particular,

              > There is an interesting write up by Grinnell about Gray Vireo in Kern.
              He
              > waxes eloquent about blasting 1 or 2, says what great habitat there
              is,
              > and how there should be tons of these birds around. I live within 15
              > miles of that spot. I wander in there every year looking for Gray
              Vireo.
              > Have never found them and probably never will. My guess is that there
              > were never very many. Who knows, maybe Grinnell's taking finished them
              > off.

              The notion that Joseph Grinnell single-handedly eliminated Gray Vireos
              from Kern County is, simply, absurd. Grinnell collected (oh, excuse me,
              "blasted") "1 or 2", and I doubt that there are more than a half-dozen
              other Gray Vireo specimens in the world's collections from Kern County.
              To chalk up the species' alleged disappearance from Kern to the
              collection of a couple of specimens, and to ignore all of the following
              issues is unrealistic. What about habitat change from grazing, mining,
              off-road vehicles, fires set by yahoos, invasive plant species, and
              climate change? What about the superabundance of Brown-headed Cowbirds
              and the increase of various human-subsidized predators like Common
              Ravens? Why has the Gray Vireo declined in most of its former California
              range even though Grinnell (and others) collected only a few of them in
              only a few portions of their range?

              Similarly, the Grinnell Resurvey Project will not eliminate Sooty Grouse
              from Kern County or anywhere else. The limited bird collecting
              associated with that project is conducted under the same restrictions
              under which all scientific collectors operate. Rare species cannot be
              collected, period. And certain additional species for which there is
              conservation concern can only be collected under a fully vetted MOU,
              which means that the State of California and the U. S. Fish and Wildlife
              Service must approve in each instance, above and beyond their very
              strict standards for issuing collecting permits in the first place.

              The Grinnell Resurvey Project will tell us a great deal about how the
              avifauna of California has changed in the last century because it will
              compare data carefully collected by many of the same methodologies 100
              years apart. The limited number of specimens collected will tell us
              many important things that cannot be determined from observation and
              from trapping and releasing birds (though those remain the dominant two
              methodologies in the Project). For example, exact reproductive condition
              is determined from dissection of the reproductive tract (have breeding
              seasons changed with climate change?); tissues and organs are preserved
              for potential analysis of toxins and other contaminants (are
              environmental contaminants impacting bird populations?); blood and
              tissue samples allow a suite of molecular analyses (have there been
              genetic/evolutionary changes in populations over the past 100 years?);
              exact spectrophotometric and measurement data can be taken (and
              re-taken, over and over) on the preserved skins (are there discernable
              shifts in morphology of bird species at Grinnell's old collecting
              localities? Have subspecies boundaries changes?). The list goes on and
              on.

              PLEASE, people. Be aware of and spend your talents and energies
              addressing the REAL conservation issues our birds face. We should be
              celebrating the MVZ's Grinnell Resurvey Project, and celebrating the
              work that Grinnell and his contemporaries did in laying the foundation
              of our knowledge of California's avifauna. And I echo Ed Pandolfino's
              invitation to all of you to attend the WFO meeting in October and hear
              Carla Cicero's talk about this important project.

              Kimball

              Kimball L. Garrett
              Ornithology Collections Manager
              Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
              900 Exposition Blvd.
              Los Angeles CA 90007
              (213) 763-3368
              (213) 746-2999 FAX
              kgarrett@... <mailto:kgarrett%40nhm.org>

              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com>
              [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
              Behalf
              > Of Bob and Susan Steele
              > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 7:57 PM
              > To: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com>
              > Subject: [CALBIRDS] a question about the Grinnell and Miller follow on
              > survey
              >
              > Greeting fellow birders, a couple months ago I heard that one of the
              UC
              > schools was going to survey the spots done by Grinnell and Miller. I
              said
              > about time. Now I hear that in addition to point counts they are also
              > collecting (or trying to) a series of 10 of every species in the areas
              > they are looking at. Now, I have to say o no. Now that would be a
              > great idea if it were say 10 starlings, but I'm not so keen of them
              > attempting to take, say, 10 Sooty Grouse from Kern Co. Why you may
              ask.
              > Well, I'd be surprised if there are 10 Sooty Grouse in Kern Co. Some
              > species are rare everywhere and some locally so.





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Bob and Susan Steele
              Greetings fellow birders, I m still looking for information about the Grinnell resurvey. At website http://mvz.berkeley.edu/Grinnell/index.html I see that
              Message 6 of 6 , Jun 9, 2008
                Greetings fellow birders, I'm still looking for information about the Grinnell resurvey. At website http://mvz.berkeley.edu/Grinnell/index.html I see that this "intends to further Grinnell's vision by extensively resurveying the vertebrate diversity at the sites he and his colleagues examined" and "Grinnell Resurvey Project: This map represents the California Life Zones. Boxed on it are some of the proposed project areas for comprehensive resurvey." I can't seem to find a link that provides any further information on the plan. Is there any information that is publicly available?

                Thank you,
                Susan Steele


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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