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Re: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?

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  • Janet Leonard
    FYI- The species designation for domestic animals, probably, I think, goes back to Linnaeus who was not thinking in evolutionary terms, merely sorting things
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
      FYI-

      The species designation for domestic animals, probably, I think, goes back
      to Linnaeus who was not thinking in evolutionary terms, merely sorting
      things into pigeonholes. These designations
      should probably get cleared up and abolished but they have a certain
      practical utility; e.g. studies of Canis lupus in the Western US are quite
      different from what would be the case if domestic dogs were included. Also,
      there is a tendency for splitting to persist for higher vertebrates even
      when we know that there are no reproductive barriers. A bit off-message for
      this group but maybe of general interest.


      Jan Leonard

      Half Moon Bay


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Alvaro Jaramillo" <chucao@...>
      To: "'Steve Hampton'" <shampton@...>; <calbirds@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 1:37 PM
      Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?


      Steve



      It is confusing, but risoria (Ringed Turtle-Dove) is considered a
      domesticated form or roseogrisea (African Collared-Dove). So it is akin to
      saying Ringed Turtle-Dove is to African Collared-Dove as Canis familiaris
      (Dog) is to Canis lupus (Wolf). It is strange that some domesticated animals
      have a species designation to begin with, but we do have them. I wonder if
      in time we will also have Homo sapiens urbanus, for "city folk."



      Cheers



      Al



      Alvaro Jaramillo

      HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@..."chucao@...

      Half Moon Bay, California



      Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

      HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

      _____

      From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of Steve Hampton
      Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 12:53 PM
      To: calbirds@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?



      Floyd,

      I think most consider the African Collared-Dove and the Ringed Turtle-Dove
      to be distinct species, so really there are three similar species we are
      talking about:

      Ringed Turtle-Dove Streptopelia risoria
      African Collared-Dove Streptopelia roseogrisea
      Eurasian Collared-Dove Streptopelia decaocto

      Decaocto is now widespread in SE Calif and spreading NW (from the nationwide
      expansion), and also has some established populations along the coast (from
      previous releases). It does associate with and hybridize with risoria on
      occasion, but in general risoria is rare in the wild, probably limited to
      escapees who seem to find decaocto when lonely. I haven't heard of
      roseogrisea in California.

      good birding,

      Steve Hampton
      ____________-____
      Resource Economist
      Office of Spill Prevention and Response
      California Dept of Fish and Game
      PO Box 944209
      Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
      --------------------------------------
      (916) 323-4724 phone
      (916) 324-8829 fax
      >>> Floyd Hayes <HYPERLINK
      "mailto:floyd_hayes%40yahoo.com"floyd_hayes@...> 09/05/07 10:39 AM
      >>>
      How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
      Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
      and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
      time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
      Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
      alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
      implications would be for human assistance in the
      spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.

      Floyd Hayes
      Hidden Valley Lake, CA

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    • Alvaro Jaramillo
      Kimball et al. Believe it or not I was thinking of sending a note along the same lines as what you wrote to ID frontiers, but now that the conversation is on
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
        Kimball et al.



        Believe it or not I was thinking of sending a note along the same lines
        as what you wrote to ID frontiers, but now that the conversation is on here,
        I will add a few bits. I have been seeing a small proportion of the Half
        Moon Bay, San Mateo County population of Euro Collared-Dove which are pale,
        �risoria-like� but definitely E. Collared-Doves. I too have wondered about
        the significance of this, and have thought that it is not due to local
        releases, or hybridization but an aspect of the founder population in North
        America. I guess that the slightly different spin I would put on it is that
        the key elements may be the amazing expansion of the population and the
        short time it has taken for this to happen. Assuming that the founder
        population (Bahamas was it?) had pale Ringed T-D like birds, these genes
        will remain in the growing population in the same proportion as they started
        unless there is direct selection against them. My guess is that there is
        selection against them, but given the huge and quick expansion there just
        hasn�t been that much time for this genotype to get weeded out from the
        general population. I am no population geneticist, but I wonder also if in
        an exponentially growing population which seems to have no immediate
        limitation in its population growth, if selection against a plumage type
        such as this is somehow lessened? So if we started with a founder population
        of let�s say 5% pale birds, in such a short time (twenty years or so?) the
        expanding population may still have several percent pale birds involved. I
        would predict that as populations eventually stabilize, and higher levels of
        competition set in as the Collared-Dove niche is �filled� these pale birds
        will be weeded out by natural selection (differential predation on them,
        aggression from other doves, perhaps lesser ability to forage effectively
        due to this�etc). Like I said, I am no population geneticist, and if there
        is one out there who can say � Al you are full of it, I would be happy to
        learn from someone �in the know.�

        Also, some additional information about Caribbean populations
        which I have been able to see while on tour. In the Lesser Antilles, the
        distribution of the dove is still expanding, and it appears that there may
        have been more than the one introduction to the Bahamas. For example the
        French Islands (Martinique and Guadeloupe) have huge populations of the
        dove, while the island in-between (Dominica) has very few. The French
        Islands are much more built up than Dominica, and this surely has an effect,
        but given that the French Islands have various other introduced species,
        while Dominica does not, suggests that the dove was introduced to the French
        Islands. Puerto Rico also has a population which may have been an
        independent introduction from the Bahamas birds. The birds in Puerto Rico
        are very mixed looking, patchy birds, pale birds etc. The general thought is
        that they are mixed populations between Euro Collared-Dove and �Ringed
        Turtle-Dove� however on the west side of the island where the population was
        pretty big, vocally birds were Eurasian Collared-Doves, although their
        appearance was variable. In Guadeloupe and Martinique, birds were more
        standard looking although pale birds were regularly seen.



        Regards



        Alvaro



        Alvaro Jaramillo

        HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@..."chucao@...

        Half Moon Bay, California



        Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

        HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

        _____

        From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of Kimball Garrett
        Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 2:13 PM
        To: Floyd Hayes; Calbirds
        Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?



        Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.):

        Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. "Ringed Turtle-Dove" is
        indeed merely the domesticated form of African Collared-Dove,
        Streptopelia roseogrisea. There is (fortunately) a trend away from
        providing separate binomials for domesticated forms, though it is of
        interest that Linnaeus coined the binomial Streptopelia risoria (for
        "Ringed Turtle-Dove" or "Barbary Dove") before Streptopelia roseogrisea
        was named in 1857. I do have another, related, comment.

        From my experience and that of many others with whom I've discussed
        this, occasional pale morphs are often seen with established Eurasian
        Collared-Dove (ECD) populations. In most cases these birds don't
        exactly match "classic" creamy-colored, small "Ringed Turtle-Doves"
        (RTDs), but they certainly differ from the expected phenotype of ECD.
        Years ago, one popular explanation was that these were RTDs that
        probably escaped from the same dove breeders who lost the ECDs (along,
        no doubt, with hybrids), thus supporting the notion that all of the
        various populations in California and neighboring regions resulted from
        local releases. Now, of course, it is clear that most of our ECD
        populations are part of the massive and rapid continent-wide expansion
        of this species, and that "local origin" can only be proved in a few
        cases.

        My suspicion, without the benefit of specimens or DNA sequences to back
        it up, is that a pale phenotype of ECD turns up occasionally in most
        populations, perhaps maintained as a recessive trait in the expanding
        populations. Perhaps this phenotype has its genetic origins in past
        captive breeding shenanigans (e.g. selective breeding for pale
        coloration, or cross-breeding with RTDs?). Or, perhaps, RTD genes were
        picked up through interbreeding as ECDs spread across North America
        (occasionally coming onto contact with escaped RTDs). But most likely
        it is just a rare morph of ECD. Quoting from Derek Goodwin's Pigeons and
        Doves of the World (Cornell Univ. Press, 1983): "Besides variation
        within the normal range [of Eurasian Collared-Dove]-, very pale
        individuals and others that are creamy buff like 'S. risoria' [RTD}
        occur quite frequently in Britain. There is no reason to suppose the
        mutants are of hybrid origin." Mention of pale creamy buff variants is
        also made in the BNA account by Christina Romagosa, and such morphs were
        noted by Bill Smith in some of the earliest populations established in
        the U. S.

        In any case, my point is that I'm not sure we should necessarily call
        these pale birds RTDs (or, more properly, domesticated forms of African
        Collared-Doves)-, absent a more thorough study. It seems likely that many
        or most of them are ECDs. If you encounter a pale bird, pay close
        attention to voice; the relatively clear 3-note cooing ("coo-COO-coo"-)
        of ECD is utterly different from the guttural "koo-kRRRRooo" of RTDs.

        Kimball

        Kimball L. Garrett
        Ornithology Collections Manager
        Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
        900 Exposition Blvd.
        Los Angeles CA 90007
        (213) 763-3368
        (213) 746-2999 FAX
        HYPERLINK "mailto:kgarrett%40nhm.org"kgarrett@nhm.-org

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: HYPERLINK
        "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com"CALBIRDS@...
        [mailto:HYPERLINK
        "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com"CALBIRDS@...] On
        Behalf
        > Of Floyd Hayes
        > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:40 AM
        > To: Calbirds
        > Subject: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
        >
        > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
        > Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
        > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
        > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
        > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
        > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
        > implications would be for human assistance in the
        > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
        >
        > Floyd Hayes
        > Hidden Valley Lake, CA




        No virus found in this incoming message.
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      • Janet Leonard
        Al- If a population is rapidly expanding, it must by definition be experiencing relatively low natural selection because more young survive and reproduce than
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
          Al-

          If a population is rapidly expanding, it must by definition be experiencing
          relatively low natural selection because more young survive and reproduce
          than in stable populations. Therefore, your argument about recessives not
          being weeded out makes sense.


          Jan Leonard

          Half Moon Bay

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Alvaro Jaramillo" <chucao@...>
          To: "'Kimball Garrett'" <kgarrett@...>; "'Floyd Hayes'"
          <floyd_hayes@...>; "'Calbirds'" <calbirds@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:28 PM
          Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?


          Kimball et al.



          Believe it or not I was thinking of sending a note along the same lines
          as what you wrote to ID frontiers, but now that the conversation is on here,
          I will add a few bits. I have been seeing a small proportion of the Half
          Moon Bay, San Mateo County population of Euro Collared-Dove which are pale,
          "risoria-like" but definitely E. Collared-Doves. I too have wondered about
          the significance of this, and have thought that it is not due to local
          releases, or hybridization but an aspect of the founder population in North
          America. I guess that the slightly different spin I would put on it is that
          the key elements may be the amazing expansion of the population and the
          short time it has taken for this to happen. Assuming that the founder
          population (Bahamas was it?) had pale Ringed T-D like birds, these genes
          will remain in the growing population in the same proportion as they started
          unless there is direct selection against them. My guess is that there is
          selection against them, but given the huge and quick expansion there just
          hasn't been that much time for this genotype to get weeded out from the
          general population. I am no population geneticist, but I wonder also if in
          an exponentially growing population which seems to have no immediate
          limitation in its population growth, if selection against a plumage type
          such as this is somehow lessened? So if we started with a founder population
          of let's say 5% pale birds, in such a short time (twenty years or so?) the
          expanding population may still have several percent pale birds involved. I
          would predict that as populations eventually stabilize, and higher levels of
          competition set in as the Collared-Dove niche is "filled" these pale birds
          will be weeded out by natural selection (differential predation on them,
          aggression from other doves, perhaps lesser ability to forage effectively
          due to this.etc). Like I said, I am no population geneticist, and if there
          is one out there who can say - Al you are full of it, I would be happy to
          learn from someone "in the know."

          Also, some additional information about Caribbean populations
          which I have been able to see while on tour. In the Lesser Antilles, the
          distribution of the dove is still expanding, and it appears that there may
          have been more than the one introduction to the Bahamas. For example the
          French Islands (Martinique and Guadeloupe) have huge populations of the
          dove, while the island in-between (Dominica) has very few. The French
          Islands are much more built up than Dominica, and this surely has an effect,
          but given that the French Islands have various other introduced species,
          while Dominica does not, suggests that the dove was introduced to the French
          Islands. Puerto Rico also has a population which may have been an
          independent introduction from the Bahamas birds. The birds in Puerto Rico
          are very mixed looking, patchy birds, pale birds etc. The general thought is
          that they are mixed populations between Euro Collared-Dove and "Ringed
          Turtle-Dove" however on the west side of the island where the population was
          pretty big, vocally birds were Eurasian Collared-Doves, although their
          appearance was variable. In Guadeloupe and Martinique, birds were more
          standard looking although pale birds were regularly seen.



          Regards



          Alvaro



          Alvaro Jaramillo

          HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@..."chucao@...

          Half Moon Bay, California



          Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

          HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

          _____

          From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of Kimball Garrett
          Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 2:13 PM
          To: Floyd Hayes; Calbirds
          Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?



          Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.):

          Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. "Ringed Turtle-Dove" is
          indeed merely the domesticated form of African Collared-Dove,
          Streptopelia roseogrisea. There is (fortunately) a trend away from
          providing separate binomials for domesticated forms, though it is of
          interest that Linnaeus coined the binomial Streptopelia risoria (for
          "Ringed Turtle-Dove" or "Barbary Dove") before Streptopelia roseogrisea
          was named in 1857. I do have another, related, comment.

          >From my experience and that of many others with whom I've discussed
          this, occasional pale morphs are often seen with established Eurasian
          Collared-Dove (ECD) populations. In most cases these birds don't
          exactly match "classic" creamy-colored, small "Ringed Turtle-Doves"
          (RTDs), but they certainly differ from the expected phenotype of ECD.
          Years ago, one popular explanation was that these were RTDs that
          probably escaped from the same dove breeders who lost the ECDs (along,
          no doubt, with hybrids), thus supporting the notion that all of the
          various populations in California and neighboring regions resulted from
          local releases. Now, of course, it is clear that most of our ECD
          populations are part of the massive and rapid continent-wide expansion
          of this species, and that "local origin" can only be proved in a few
          cases.

          My suspicion, without the benefit of specimens or DNA sequences to back
          it up, is that a pale phenotype of ECD turns up occasionally in most
          populations, perhaps maintained as a recessive trait in the expanding
          populations. Perhaps this phenotype has its genetic origins in past
          captive breeding shenanigans (e.g. selective breeding for pale
          coloration, or cross-breeding with RTDs?). Or, perhaps, RTD genes were
          picked up through interbreeding as ECDs spread across North America
          (occasionally coming onto contact with escaped RTDs). But most likely
          it is just a rare morph of ECD. Quoting from Derek Goodwin's Pigeons and
          Doves of the World (Cornell Univ. Press, 1983): "Besides variation
          within the normal range [of Eurasian Collared-Dove]-, very pale
          individuals and others that are creamy buff like 'S. risoria' [RTD}
          occur quite frequently in Britain. There is no reason to suppose the
          mutants are of hybrid origin." Mention of pale creamy buff variants is
          also made in the BNA account by Christina Romagosa, and such morphs were
          noted by Bill Smith in some of the earliest populations established in
          the U. S.

          In any case, my point is that I'm not sure we should necessarily call
          these pale birds RTDs (or, more properly, domesticated forms of African
          Collared-Doves)-, absent a more thorough study. It seems likely that many
          or most of them are ECDs. If you encounter a pale bird, pay close
          attention to voice; the relatively clear 3-note cooing ("coo-COO-coo"-)
          of ECD is utterly different from the guttural "koo-kRRRRooo" of RTDs.

          Kimball

          Kimball L. Garrett
          Ornithology Collections Manager
          Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
          900 Exposition Blvd.
          Los Angeles CA 90007
          (213) 763-3368
          (213) 746-2999 FAX
          HYPERLINK "mailto:kgarrett%40nhm.org"kgarrett@nhm.-org

          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: HYPERLINK
          "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com"CALBIRDS@...
          [mailto:HYPERLINK
          "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com"CALBIRDS@...] On
          Behalf
          > Of Floyd Hayes
          > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:40 AM
          > To: Calbirds
          > Subject: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
          >
          > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
          > Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
          > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
          > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
          > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
          > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
          > implications would be for human assistance in the
          > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
          >
          > Floyd Hayes
          > Hidden Valley Lake, CA




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          3:18 PM



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        • Adam Winer
          We ve veered far off the e-mail lists here, but that assertion is mathematically false. Differential survival rates of genotypes would have a huge impact on
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
            We've veered far off the e-mail lists here, but that assertion
            is mathematically false. Differential survival rates of
            genotypes would have a huge impact on the eventual proportions
            in a rapidly expanding population, for exactly the same reason that
            relatively small differences in per-year returns on monetary investments
            have an enormous effect over long periods.

            The issue is not whether pale individuals are producing enough
            to expand rapidly; it's whether they're producing enough to
            expand as rapidly as "standard" individuals. As with anything
            biological, many caveats apply - is this a recessive gene, if so are there
            heterozygote advantages, is it more or less advantageous in some
            habitats, etc. etc. But the basic point stands: were this a
            significantly deleterious gene, it should get blasted out of
            the gene pool in the course of the population explosion.

            (BTW, I think the core fallacy is "rapidly expanding" equals
            "low natural selection". Intensity of natural selection has
            nothing to do with overall population changes, and everything to
            do with relative reproductive success across genotypes.)

            -- Adam Winer


            On 9/6/07, Janet Leonard <jlleonar@...> wrote:
            >
            > Al-
            >
            > If a population is rapidly expanding, it must by definition be
            > experiencing
            > relatively low natural selection because more young survive and reproduce
            > than in stable populations. Therefore, your argument about recessives not
            > being weeded out makes sense.
            >
            > Jan Leonard
            >
            > Half Moon Bay
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Alvaro Jaramillo" <chucao@... <chucao%40coastside.net>>
            > To: "'Kimball Garrett'" <kgarrett@... <kgarrett%40nhm.org>>; "'Floyd
            > Hayes'"
            > <floyd_hayes@... <floyd_hayes%40yahoo.com>>; "'Calbirds'" <
            > calbirds@yahoogroups.com <calbirds%40yahoogroups.com>>
            > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:28 PM
            > Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
            >
            > Kimball et al.
            >
            > Believe it or not I was thinking of sending a note along the same lines
            > as what you wrote to ID frontiers, but now that the conversation is on
            > here,
            > I will add a few bits. I have been seeing a small proportion of the Half
            > Moon Bay, San Mateo County population of Euro Collared-Dove which are
            > pale,
            > "risoria-like" but definitely E. Collared-Doves. I too have wondered about
            > the significance of this, and have thought that it is not due to local
            > releases, or hybridization but an aspect of the founder population in
            > North
            > America. I guess that the slightly different spin I would put on it is
            > that
            > the key elements may be the amazing expansion of the population and the
            > short time it has taken for this to happen. Assuming that the founder
            > population (Bahamas was it?) had pale Ringed T-D like birds, these genes
            > will remain in the growing population in the same proportion as they
            > started
            > unless there is direct selection against them. My guess is that there is
            > selection against them, but given the huge and quick expansion there just
            > hasn't been that much time for this genotype to get weeded out from the
            > general population. I am no population geneticist, but I wonder also if in
            > an exponentially growing population which seems to have no immediate
            > limitation in its population growth, if selection against a plumage type
            > such as this is somehow lessened? So if we started with a founder
            > population
            > of let's say 5% pale birds, in such a short time (twenty years or so?) the
            > expanding population may still have several percent pale birds involved. I
            > would predict that as populations eventually stabilize, and higher levels
            > of
            > competition set in as the Collared-Dove niche is "filled" these pale birds
            > will be weeded out by natural selection (differential predation on them,
            > aggression from other doves, perhaps lesser ability to forage effectively
            > due to this.etc). Like I said, I am no population geneticist, and if there
            > is one out there who can say - Al you are full of it, I would be happy to
            > learn from someone "in the know."
            >
            > Also, some additional information about Caribbean populations
            > which I have been able to see while on tour. In the Lesser Antilles, the
            > distribution of the dove is still expanding, and it appears that there may
            > have been more than the one introduction to the Bahamas. For example the
            > French Islands (Martinique and Guadeloupe) have huge populations of the
            > dove, while the island in-between (Dominica) has very few. The French
            > Islands are much more built up than Dominica, and this surely has an
            > effect,
            > but given that the French Islands have various other introduced species,
            > while Dominica does not, suggests that the dove was introduced to the
            > French
            > Islands. Puerto Rico also has a population which may have been an
            > independent introduction from the Bahamas birds. The birds in Puerto Rico
            > are very mixed looking, patchy birds, pale birds etc. The general thought
            > is
            > that they are mixed populations between Euro Collared-Dove and "Ringed
            > Turtle-Dove" however on the west side of the island where the population
            > was
            > pretty big, vocally birds were Eurasian Collared-Doves, although their
            > appearance was variable. In Guadeloupe and Martinique, birds were more
            > standard looking although pale birds were regularly seen.
            >
            > Regards
            >
            > Alvaro
            >
            > Alvaro Jaramillo
            >
            > HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@... <chucao%40coastside.net>"
            > chucao@... <chucao%40coastside.net>
            >
            > Half Moon Bay, California
            >
            > Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
            >
            > HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com <CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
            > CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com <CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
            > Of Kimball Garrett
            > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 2:13 PM
            > To: Floyd Hayes; Calbirds
            > Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
            >
            > Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.):
            >
            > Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. "Ringed Turtle-Dove" is
            > indeed merely the domesticated form of African Collared-Dove,
            > Streptopelia roseogrisea. There is (fortunately) a trend away from
            > providing separate binomials for domesticated forms, though it is of
            > interest that Linnaeus coined the binomial Streptopelia risoria (for
            > "Ringed Turtle-Dove" or "Barbary Dove") before Streptopelia roseogrisea
            > was named in 1857. I do have another, related, comment.
            >
            > >From my experience and that of many others with whom I've discussed
            > this, occasional pale morphs are often seen with established Eurasian
            > Collared-Dove (ECD) populations. In most cases these birds don't
            > exactly match "classic" creamy-colored, small "Ringed Turtle-Doves"
            > (RTDs), but they certainly differ from the expected phenotype of ECD.
            > Years ago, one popular explanation was that these were RTDs that
            > probably escaped from the same dove breeders who lost the ECDs (along,
            > no doubt, with hybrids), thus supporting the notion that all of the
            > various populations in California and neighboring regions resulted from
            > local releases. Now, of course, it is clear that most of our ECD
            > populations are part of the massive and rapid continent-wide expansion
            > of this species, and that "local origin" can only be proved in a few
            > cases.
            >
            > My suspicion, without the benefit of specimens or DNA sequences to back
            > it up, is that a pale phenotype of ECD turns up occasionally in most
            > populations, perhaps maintained as a recessive trait in the expanding
            > populations. Perhaps this phenotype has its genetic origins in past
            > captive breeding shenanigans (e.g. selective breeding for pale
            > coloration, or cross-breeding with RTDs?). Or, perhaps, RTD genes were
            > picked up through interbreeding as ECDs spread across North America
            > (occasionally coming onto contact with escaped RTDs). But most likely
            > it is just a rare morph of ECD. Quoting from Derek Goodwin's Pigeons and
            > Doves of the World (Cornell Univ. Press, 1983): "Besides variation
            > within the normal range [of Eurasian Collared-Dove]-, very pale
            > individuals and others that are creamy buff like 'S. risoria' [RTD}
            > occur quite frequently in Britain. There is no reason to suppose the
            > mutants are of hybrid origin." Mention of pale creamy buff variants is
            > also made in the BNA account by Christina Romagosa, and such morphs were
            > noted by Bill Smith in some of the earliest populations established in
            > the U. S.
            >
            > In any case, my point is that I'm not sure we should necessarily call
            > these pale birds RTDs (or, more properly, domesticated forms of African
            > Collared-Doves)-, absent a more thorough study. It seems likely that many
            > or most of them are ECDs. If you encounter a pale bird, pay close
            > attention to voice; the relatively clear 3-note cooing ("coo-COO-coo"-)
            > of ECD is utterly different from the guttural "koo-kRRRRooo" of RTDs.
            >
            > Kimball
            >
            > Kimball L. Garrett
            > Ornithology Collections Manager
            > Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
            > 900 Exposition Blvd.
            > Los Angeles CA 90007
            > (213) 763-3368
            > (213) 746-2999 FAX
            > HYPERLINK "mailto:kgarrett% <kgarrett%25>40nhm.org"kgarrett@nhm.-org
            >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: HYPERLINK
            > "mailto:CALBIRDS% <CALBIRDS%25>40yahoogroups.com"CALBIRDS@...<CALBIRDS%40yahoogroup-s.com>
            > [mailto:HYPERLINK
            > "mailto:CALBIRDS% <CALBIRDS%25>40yahoogroups.com"CALBIRDS@...<CALBIRDS%40yahoogroup-s.com>]
            > On
            > Behalf
            > > Of Floyd Hayes
            > > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:40 AM
            > > To: Calbirds
            > > Subject: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
            > >
            > > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
            > > Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
            > > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
            > > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
            > > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
            > > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
            > > implications would be for human assistance in the
            > > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
            > >
            > > Floyd Hayes
            > > Hidden Valley Lake, CA
            >
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            > 3:18 PM
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Chet ogan
            Floyd, I found breeding Eurasian Collared Dove in 2006 in Humboldt County, to my recollection they were first found at a feed and grain store in Eureka in
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
              Floyd,
              I found breeding Eurasian Collared Dove in 2006 in
              Humboldt County, to my recollection they were first
              found at a feed and grain store in Eureka in 2005. I
              also had Eurasian Collared Dove at Cedarville, Modoc
              Co in July 2006. I saw my first Ringed Turtle Dove in
              Carpinteria, Ca in 2000 and Eurasian Collared Dove at
              the same exact location in 2001.

              Chet Ogan
              Eureka, Humboldt Co

              --- Steve Hampton <shampton@...> wrote:

              > Floyd,
              >
              > I think most consider the African Collared-Dove and
              > the Ringed Turtle-Dove to be distinct species, so
              > really there are three similar species we are
              > talking about:
              >
              > Ringed Turtle-Dove Streptopelia risoria
              > African Collared-Dove Streptopelia roseogrisea
              > Eurasian Collared-Dove Streptopelia decaocto
              >
              > Decaocto is now widespread in SE Calif and spreading
              > NW (from the nationwide expansion), and also has
              > some established populations along the coast (from
              > previous releases). It does associate with and
              > hybridize with risoria on occasion, but in general
              > risoria is rare in the wild, probably limited to
              > escapees who seem to find decaocto when lonely. I
              > haven't heard of roseogrisea in California.
              >
              > good birding,
              >
              >
              >
              > Steve Hampton
              > ________________
              > Resource Economist
              > Office of Spill Prevention and Response
              > California Dept of Fish and Game
              > PO Box 944209
              > Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
              > -----------------------------------
              > (916) 323-4724 phone
              > (916) 324-8829 fax
              > >>> Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes@...> 09/05/07
              > 10:39 AM >>>
              > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
              > Ringed Turtle-Dove)? Multiple African Collared-Doves
              > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the
              > same
              > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
              > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
              > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
              > implications would be for human assistance in the
              > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
              >
              > Floyd Hayes
              > Hidden Valley Lake, CA
              >
              >
              >
              >
              ____________________________________________________________________________________
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              Imagine there's no countries . . .It isn't hard to do
              Nothing to kill or die for . . . . And no religion too
              Imagine all the people . . . .. .Living life in peace...
              - J Lennon-

              Chet Ogan
              chet_ogan@...
              707-442-9353
            • Alvaro Jaramillo
              Adam I know exactly what you mean, this is why the time argument is the one that I am most confident in. Even with moderate selection against the pale birds,
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
                Adam



                I know exactly what you mean, this is why the time argument is the one
                that I am most confident in. Even with moderate selection against the pale
                birds, there may not have been much time to dent their relative proportion
                yet. I mean we really are talking about a short time frame here as far as
                populations go. I would throw out the idea that this is a �recessive gene�
                that is a very specific situation which I think is unlikely in this case.
                The �risoria-like� phenotype is probably due to more than one gene, although
                this is a guess. But then again the property of a gene being recessive or
                dominant has nothing to do with shifting its proportions in a population, as
                you note, selection for or against the gene does. This is why blue eyes are
                not �bred out� when blue eyed people have kids with brown eyed people, the
                genes stay in the same proportions as they started in�unless there is
                selection against them. So I would argue that the pale birds we see are
                still an effect of the founder population, there just hasn�t been enough
                time for this genotype to be selected out, but my guess is that it will, or
                at least it�s proportion will stabilize at a lower number than it is now.



                By the way, here in Half Moon Bay, San Mateo County the Collared Dove is now
                the second most common dove in town after Mourning. There are more of them
                than Rock Pigeon, and at least in town more than Band-tailed Pigeons. It
                only took three years or so for this to happen. What is interesting is how
                these doves colonize a place. They seem to have nuclei of occurrence where
                they begin from, and then expand outwardly from there. It is not a broad
                front invasion, but disparate spots where they arrive, and then the
                intervening areas fill in. This is a rather different mode of expansion than
                most other bird expansions we have seen on the continent. This is certainly
                THE ornithological event of our birding lifetimes I would say, and we are
                all overlooking it. Has there ever been such a massive expansion in such a
                quick time of any bird on the continent? The next best avian expansion story
                that I can think of is Great-tailed Grackle, but that pales to what these
                doves are doing. I mean the entire continent has been taken over in a few
                years.



                Thanks for the note!



                Al



                Alvaro Jaramillo

                HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@..."chucao@...

                Half Moon Bay, California



                Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

                HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

                _____

                From: Adam Winer [mailto:awiner@...]
                Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 9:45 PM
                To: Janet Leonard
                Cc: Kimball Garrett; Floyd Hayes; Calbirds; Alvaro Jaramillo
                Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?



                We've veered far off the e-mail lists here, but that assertion
                is mathematically false. Differential survival rates of
                genotypes would have a huge impact on the eventual proportions
                in a rapidly expanding population, for exactly the same reason that
                relatively small differences in per-year returns on monetary investments
                have an enormous effect over long periods.

                The issue is not whether pale individuals are producing enough
                to expand rapidly; it's whether they're producing enough to
                expand as rapidly as "standard" individuals. As with anything
                biological, many caveats apply - is this a recessive gene, if so are there
                heterozygote advantages, is it more or less advantageous in some
                habitats, etc. etc. But the basic point stands: were this a
                significantly deleterious gene, it should get blasted out of
                the gene pool in the course of the population explosion.

                (BTW, I think the core fallacy is "rapidly expanding" equals
                "low natural selection". Intensity of natural selection has
                nothing to do with overall population changes, and everything to
                do with relative reproductive success across genotypes.)

                -- Adam Winer



                On 9/6/07, Janet Leonard <HYPERLINK
                "mailto:jlleonar@..."jlleonar@...> wrote:

                Al-

                If a population is rapidly expanding, it must by definition be experiencing
                relatively low natural selection because more young survive and reproduce
                than in stable populations. Therefore, your argument about recessives not
                being weeded out makes sense.

                Jan Leonard

                Half Moon Bay



                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Alvaro Jaramillo" <HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao%40coastside.net"
                \nchucao@...>
                To: "'Kimball Garrett'" <HYPERLINK "mailto:kgarrett%40nhm.org"
                \nkgarrett@...>; "'Floyd Hayes'"
                <HYPERLINK "mailto:floyd_hayes%40yahoo.com" \nfloyd_hayes@...>;
                "'Calbirds'" <HYPERLINK "mailto:calbirds%40yahoogroups.com" \n
                calbirds@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:28 PM
                Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?

                Kimball et al.

                Believe it or not I was thinking of sending a note along the same lines
                as what you wrote to ID frontiers, but now that the conversation is on here,
                I will add a few bits. I have been seeing a small proportion of the Half
                Moon Bay, San Mateo County population of Euro Collared-Dove which are pale,
                "risoria-like" but definitely E. Collared-Doves. I too have wondered about
                the significance of this, and have thought that it is not due to local
                releases, or hybridization but an aspect of the founder population in North
                America. I guess that the slightly different spin I would put on it is that
                the key elements may be the amazing expansion of the population and the
                short time it has taken for this to happen. Assuming that the founder
                population (Bahamas was it?) had pale Ringed T-D like birds, these genes
                will remain in the growing population in the same proportion as they started
                unless there is direct selection against them. My guess is that there is
                selection against them, but given the huge and quick expansion there just
                hasn't been that much time for this genotype to get weeded out from the
                general population. I am no population geneticist, but I wonder also if in
                an exponentially growing population which seems to have no immediate
                limitation in its population growth, if selection against a plumage type
                such as this is somehow lessened? So if we started with a founder population
                of let's say 5% pale birds, in such a short time (twenty years or so?) the
                expanding population may still have several percent pale birds involved. I
                would predict that as populations eventually stabilize, and higher levels of
                competition set in as the Collared-Dove niche is "filled" these pale birds
                will be weeded out by natural selection (differential predation on them,
                aggression from other doves, perhaps lesser ability to forage effectively
                due to this.etc). Like I said, I am no population geneticist, and if there
                is one out there who can say - Al you are full of it, I would be happy to
                learn from someone "in the know."

                Also, some additional information about Caribbean populations
                which I have been able to see while on tour. In the Lesser Antilles, the
                distribution of the dove is still expanding, and it appears that there may
                have been more than the one introduction to the Bahamas. For example the
                French Islands (Martinique and Guadeloupe) have huge populations of the
                dove, while the island in-between (Dominica) has very few. The French
                Islands are much more built up than Dominica, and this surely has an effect,
                but given that the French Islands have various other introduced species,
                while Dominica does not, suggests that the dove was introduced to the French
                Islands. Puerto Rico also has a population which may have been an
                independent introduction from the Bahamas birds. The birds in Puerto Rico
                are very mixed looking, patchy birds, pale birds etc. The general thought is
                that they are mixed populations between Euro Collared-Dove and "Ringed
                Turtle-Dove" however on the west side of the island where the population was
                pretty big, vocally birds were Eurasian Collared-Doves, although their
                appearance was variable. In Guadeloupe and Martinique, birds were more
                standard looking although pale birds were regularly seen.

                Regards

                Alvaro

                Alvaro Jaramillo

                HYPERLINK "mailto:HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao%40coastside.net"
                \nchucao@..."HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao%40coastside.net" \n
                chucao@...

                Half Moon Bay, California

                Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

                HYPERLINK "HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"
                \nhttp://www.fieldguides.com"HYPERLINK
                "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

                _____

                From: HYPERLINK "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com"
                \nCALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:HYPERLINK
                "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com" \n CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of Kimball Garrett
                Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 2:13 PM
                To: Floyd Hayes; Calbirds
                Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?

                Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.):

                Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. "Ringed Turtle-Dove" is
                indeed merely the domesticated form of African Collared-Dove,
                Streptopelia roseogrisea. There is (fortunately) a trend away from
                providing separate binomials for domesticated forms, though it is of
                interest that Linnaeus coined the binomial Streptopelia risoria (for
                "Ringed Turtle-Dove" or "Barbary Dove") before Streptopelia roseogrisea
                was named in 1857. I do have another, related, comment.

                >From my experience and that of many others with whom I've discussed
                this, occasional pale morphs are often seen with established Eurasian
                Collared-Dove (ECD) populations. In most cases these birds don't
                exactly match "classic" creamy-colored, small "Ringed Turtle-Doves"
                (RTDs), but they certainly differ from the expected phenotype of ECD.
                Years ago, one popular explanation was that these were RTDs that
                probably escaped from the same dove breeders who lost the ECDs (along,
                no doubt, with hybrids), thus supporting the notion that all of the
                various populations in California and neighboring regions resulted from
                local releases. Now, of course, it is clear that most of our ECD
                populations are part of the massive and rapid continent-wide expansion
                of this species, and that "local origin" can only be proved in a few
                cases.

                My suspicion, without the benefit of specimens or DNA sequences to back
                it up, is that a pale phenotype of ECD turns up occasionally in most
                populations, perhaps maintained as a recessive trait in the expanding
                populations. Perhaps this phenotype has its genetic origins in past
                captive breeding shenanigans (e.g. selective breeding for pale
                coloration, or cross-breeding with RTDs?). Or, perhaps, RTD genes were
                picked up through interbreeding as ECDs spread across North America
                (occasionally coming onto contact with escaped RTDs). But most likely
                it is just a rare morph of ECD. Quoting from Derek Goodwin's Pigeons and
                Doves of the World (Cornell Univ. Press, 1983): "Besides variation
                within the normal range [of Eurasian Collared-Dove]-, very pale
                individuals and others that are creamy buff like 'S. risoria' [RTD}
                occur quite frequently in Britain. There is no reason to suppose the
                mutants are of hybrid origin." Mention of pale creamy buff variants is
                also made in the BNA account by Christina Romagosa, and such morphs were
                noted by Bill Smith in some of the earliest populations established in
                the U. S.

                In any case, my point is that I'm not sure we should necessarily call
                these pale birds RTDs (or, more properly, domesticated forms of African
                Collared-Doves)-, absent a more thorough study. It seems likely that many
                or most of them are ECDs. If you encounter a pale bird, pay close
                attention to voice; the relatively clear 3-note cooing ("coo-COO-coo"-)
                of ECD is utterly different from the guttural "koo-kRRRRooo" of RTDs.

                Kimball

                Kimball L. Garrett
                Ornithology Collections Manager
                Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
                900 Exposition Blvd.
                Los Angeles CA 90007
                (213) 763-3368
                (213) 746-2999 FAX
                HYPERLINK "mailto:HYPERLINK "mailto:kgarrett%25" \nkgarrett%HYPERLINK
                "http://40nhm.org" \n 40nhm.org"kgarrett@nhm.-org

                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: HYPERLINK
                "mailto:HYPERLINK "mailto:CALBIRDS%25" \nCALBIRDS%HYPERLINK
                "http://40yahoogroups.com"40yahoogroups.com"HYPERLINK
                "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroup-s.com" \n CALBIRDS@...
                [mailto:HYPERLINK "mailto:HYPERLINK" \nHYPERLINK
                "mailto:HYPERLINK "mailto:CALBIRDS%25" \nCALBIRDS%HYPERLINK
                "http://40yahoogroups.com"40yahoogroups.com"HYPERLINK
                "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroup-s.com" \n CALBIRDS@...] On
                Behalf
                > Of Floyd Hayes
                > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:40 AM
                > To: Calbirds
                > Subject: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                >
                > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
                > Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
                > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
                > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
                > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
                > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
                > implications would be for human assistance in the
                > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
                >
                > Floyd Hayes
                > Hidden Valley Lake, CA

                No virus found in this incoming message.
                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.8/993 - Release Date: 9/6/2007
                3:18 PM

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                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.8/993 - Release Date: 9/6/2007
                3:18 PM

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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              • Janet Leonard
                Adam, Al et al. Relative reproductive success is a measure of natural selection; i.e. evolution through natural selection is measured as differential
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
                  Adam, Al et al.

                  Relative reproductive success is a measure of natural selection; i.e. evolution through natural selection is measured as differential reproductive success (which includes likelihood of surviving to reproduce) of genotypes. That is, a genotype that produces more offspring is more fit (lower natural selection) than one that produces less. For the effects of expanding population size on evolution from a population genetics viewpoint see Kimura, M. 1995 PNAS and commentary by Damgaard 1996 in TREE. Certainly the presence of pale birds is derived from the founding population but if there were strong natural selection, they would quickly become rare. If it is a recessive trait they would never become extinct but they could quickly become rare.


                  Jan Leonard



                  Half Moon Bay

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Adam Winer
                  To: Janet Leonard
                  Cc: Kimball Garrett ; Floyd Hayes ; Calbirds ; Alvaro Jaramillo
                  Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 9:44 PM
                  Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?


                  We've veered far off the e-mail lists here, but that assertion
                  is mathematically false. Differential survival rates of
                  genotypes would have a huge impact on the eventual proportions
                  in a rapidly expanding population, for exactly the same reason that
                  relatively small differences in per-year returns on monetary investments
                  have an enormous effect over long periods.

                  The issue is not whether pale individuals are producing enough
                  to expand rapidly; it's whether they're producing enough to
                  expand as rapidly as "standard" individuals. As with anything
                  biological, many caveats apply - is this a recessive gene, if so are there
                  heterozygote advantages, is it more or less advantageous in some
                  habitats, etc. etc. But the basic point stands: were this a
                  significantly deleterious gene, it should get blasted out of
                  the gene pool in the course of the population explosion.

                  (BTW, I think the core fallacy is "rapidly expanding" equals
                  "low natural selection". Intensity of natural selection has
                  nothing to do with overall population changes, and everything to
                  do with relative reproductive success across genotypes.)

                  -- Adam Winer



                  On 9/6/07, Janet Leonard <jlleonar@...> wrote:
                  Al-

                  If a population is rapidly expanding, it must by definition be experiencing
                  relatively low natural selection because more young survive and reproduce
                  than in stable populations. Therefore, your argument about recessives not
                  being weeded out makes sense.

                  Jan Leonard

                  Half Moon Bay



                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Alvaro Jaramillo" <chucao@...>
                  To: "'Kimball Garrett'" <kgarrett@...>; "'Floyd Hayes'"
                  <floyd_hayes@...>; "'Calbirds'" < calbirds@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:28 PM
                  Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?

                  Kimball et al.

                  Believe it or not I was thinking of sending a note along the same lines
                  as what you wrote to ID frontiers, but now that the conversation is on here,
                  I will add a few bits. I have been seeing a small proportion of the Half
                  Moon Bay, San Mateo County population of Euro Collared-Dove which are pale,
                  "risoria-like" but definitely E. Collared-Doves. I too have wondered about
                  the significance of this, and have thought that it is not due to local
                  releases, or hybridization but an aspect of the founder population in North
                  America. I guess that the slightly different spin I would put on it is that
                  the key elements may be the amazing expansion of the population and the
                  short time it has taken for this to happen. Assuming that the founder
                  population (Bahamas was it?) had pale Ringed T-D like birds, these genes
                  will remain in the growing population in the same proportion as they started
                  unless there is direct selection against them. My guess is that there is
                  selection against them, but given the huge and quick expansion there just
                  hasn't been that much time for this genotype to get weeded out from the
                  general population. I am no population geneticist, but I wonder also if in
                  an exponentially growing population which seems to have no immediate
                  limitation in its population growth, if selection against a plumage type
                  such as this is somehow lessened? So if we started with a founder population
                  of let's say 5% pale birds, in such a short time (twenty years or so?) the
                  expanding population may still have several percent pale birds involved. I
                  would predict that as populations eventually stabilize, and higher levels of
                  competition set in as the Collared-Dove niche is "filled" these pale birds
                  will be weeded out by natural selection (differential predation on them,
                  aggression from other doves, perhaps lesser ability to forage effectively
                  due to this.etc). Like I said, I am no population geneticist, and if there
                  is one out there who can say - Al you are full of it, I would be happy to
                  learn from someone "in the know."

                  Also, some additional information about Caribbean populations
                  which I have been able to see while on tour. In the Lesser Antilles, the
                  distribution of the dove is still expanding, and it appears that there may
                  have been more than the one introduction to the Bahamas. For example the
                  French Islands (Martinique and Guadeloupe) have huge populations of the
                  dove, while the island in-between (Dominica) has very few. The French
                  Islands are much more built up than Dominica, and this surely has an effect,
                  but given that the French Islands have various other introduced species,
                  while Dominica does not, suggests that the dove was introduced to the French
                  Islands. Puerto Rico also has a population which may have been an
                  independent introduction from the Bahamas birds. The birds in Puerto Rico
                  are very mixed looking, patchy birds, pale birds etc. The general thought is
                  that they are mixed populations between Euro Collared-Dove and "Ringed
                  Turtle-Dove" however on the west side of the island where the population was
                  pretty big, vocally birds were Eurasian Collared-Doves, although their
                  appearance was variable. In Guadeloupe and Martinique, birds were more
                  standard looking although pale birds were regularly seen.

                  Regards

                  Alvaro

                  Alvaro Jaramillo

                  HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@..." chucao@...

                  Half Moon Bay, California

                  Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

                  HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

                  _____

                  From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  Of Kimball Garrett
                  Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 2:13 PM
                  To: Floyd Hayes; Calbirds
                  Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?

                  Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.):

                  Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. "Ringed Turtle-Dove" is
                  indeed merely the domesticated form of African Collared-Dove,
                  Streptopelia roseogrisea. There is (fortunately) a trend away from
                  providing separate binomials for domesticated forms, though it is of
                  interest that Linnaeus coined the binomial Streptopelia risoria (for
                  "Ringed Turtle-Dove" or "Barbary Dove") before Streptopelia roseogrisea
                  was named in 1857. I do have another, related, comment.

                  >From my experience and that of many others with whom I've discussed
                  this, occasional pale morphs are often seen with established Eurasian
                  Collared-Dove (ECD) populations. In most cases these birds don't
                  exactly match "classic" creamy-colored, small "Ringed Turtle-Doves"
                  (RTDs), but they certainly differ from the expected phenotype of ECD.
                  Years ago, one popular explanation was that these were RTDs that
                  probably escaped from the same dove breeders who lost the ECDs (along,
                  no doubt, with hybrids), thus supporting the notion that all of the
                  various populations in California and neighboring regions resulted from
                  local releases. Now, of course, it is clear that most of our ECD
                  populations are part of the massive and rapid continent-wide expansion
                  of this species, and that "local origin" can only be proved in a few
                  cases.

                  My suspicion, without the benefit of specimens or DNA sequences to back
                  it up, is that a pale phenotype of ECD turns up occasionally in most
                  populations, perhaps maintained as a recessive trait in the expanding
                  populations. Perhaps this phenotype has its genetic origins in past
                  captive breeding shenanigans (e.g. selective breeding for pale
                  coloration, or cross-breeding with RTDs?). Or, perhaps, RTD genes were
                  picked up through interbreeding as ECDs spread across North America
                  (occasionally coming onto contact with escaped RTDs). But most likely
                  it is just a rare morph of ECD. Quoting from Derek Goodwin's Pigeons and
                  Doves of the World (Cornell Univ. Press, 1983): "Besides variation
                  within the normal range [of Eurasian Collared-Dove]-, very pale
                  individuals and others that are creamy buff like 'S. risoria' [RTD}
                  occur quite frequently in Britain. There is no reason to suppose the
                  mutants are of hybrid origin." Mention of pale creamy buff variants is
                  also made in the BNA account by Christina Romagosa, and such morphs were
                  noted by Bill Smith in some of the earliest populations established in
                  the U. S.

                  In any case, my point is that I'm not sure we should necessarily call
                  these pale birds RTDs (or, more properly, domesticated forms of African
                  Collared-Doves)-, absent a more thorough study. It seems likely that many
                  or most of them are ECDs. If you encounter a pale bird, pay close
                  attention to voice; the relatively clear 3-note cooing ("coo-COO-coo"-)
                  of ECD is utterly different from the guttural "koo-kRRRRooo" of RTDs.

                  Kimball

                  Kimball L. Garrett
                  Ornithology Collections Manager
                  Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
                  900 Exposition Blvd.
                  Los Angeles CA 90007
                  (213) 763-3368
                  (213) 746-2999 FAX
                  HYPERLINK "mailto:kgarrett% 40nhm.org"kgarrett@nhm.-org

                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: HYPERLINK
                  "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com" CALBIRDS@...
                  [mailto:HYPERLINK
                  "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com" CALBIRDS@...] On
                  Behalf
                  > Of Floyd Hayes
                  > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:40 AM
                  > To: Calbirds
                  > Subject: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                  >
                  > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
                  > Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
                  > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
                  > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
                  > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
                  > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
                  > implications would be for human assistance in the
                  > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
                  >
                  > Floyd Hayes
                  > Hidden Valley Lake, CA

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                • Rusty Scalf
                  ... It seems that these Doves have leap-frogged the San Francisco Basin. I was in Lee Vining recently and would estimate the Collared/Mourning ratio at about 3
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
                    > By the way, here in Half Moon Bay, San Mateo County the Collared Dove

                    > is now the second most common dove in town after Mourning. There are
                    > more of them than Rock Pigeon

                    It seems that these Doves have leap-frogged the San Francisco Basin.

                    I was in Lee Vining recently and would estimate the Collared/Mourning
                    ratio at about 3 to 1. And they're certainly all over the San Joaquin
                    Valley.

                    If they're that common on the San Mateo Coast, I wonder why this is not
                    the case in Oakland and Berkeley. They're about, but nothing like what
                    you describe.

                    Rusty Scalf
                  • dsuddjian@aol.com
                    In a message dated 9/6/2007 11:57:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rfs_berkeley@yahoo.com writes: If they re that common on the San Mateo Coast, I wonder why this
                    Message 9 of 16 , Sep 7, 2007
                      In a message dated 9/6/2007 11:57:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                      rfs_berkeley@... writes:

                      If they're that common on the San Mateo Coast, I wonder why this is not
                      the case in Oakland and Berkeley. They're about, but nothing like what
                      you describe.

                      Maybe it is a matter of scale. In Santa Cruz County we are seeing the pattern
                      of expanding nuclei that Al mentions in the cities of Santa Cruz and
                      Watsonville, but while the species is becoming increasingly widespread here it remains
                      patchy and much more sporadic in other parts of the county. There are still
                      significant areas of likely habitat where one would have a hard time finding
                      ECD on order.

                      Interestingly, ECD was present in a nucleus area in western Santa Cruz for
                      several years before the regional invasion hit central CA a few years ago. It
                      remained quite local in that nucleus for years and only exhibited the strong
                      expanding pattern within western Santa Cruz coincident with the species'
                      broadscale arrival in central CA two to three years ago. But in Watsonville there
                      apparently were no nuclei before the regional invasion reached SCZ, but the
                      expanding nuclei pattern then developed there. My impression is that the local
                      pattern of nuclear explosion (if you'll pardon me) is fueled by the ongoing
                      broadscale influx.

                      David Suddjian
                      Capitola, CA



                      ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
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                    • Floyd Hayes
                      I don t doubt that there are pale Eurasian Collared-Doves resembling African Collared-Doves, but I was familiar with both of these species from the Caribbean
                      Message 10 of 16 , Sep 7, 2007
                        I don't doubt that there are pale Eurasian
                        Collared-Doves resembling African Collared-Doves, but
                        I was familiar with both of these species from the
                        Caribbean and I'm quite confident both are present in
                        the Napa Valley. On 2 January I saw about five of each
                        (the pale ones aren't rare), with the Eurasian
                        Collared-Doves giving three-noted calls and the
                        presumed African Collared-Doves giving two-noted
                        calls. I just posted photos at:

                        http://www.geocities.com/floyd_hayes/collared-doves.html

                        Incidentally, in contrast with the North American
                        mainland, Eurasian Collared-Doves are spreading very
                        slowly in the Caribbean. Despite an initial release in
                        the northern Bahamas (New Providence in 1974) it is
                        still relatively rare in the central and southern
                        Bahamas (my brother and I photographed San Salvador's
                        2nd in 2004). Unknown to most people, the birds were
                        definitely released (well documented) on Guadeloupe in
                        1976 (Barre et al., Pitirre 9(2):2-4, 1996), from
                        which they slowly spread northward, only recently
                        arriving in the Virgin Islands (one record, a bird I
                        photographed in 2003), and they also spread southward,
                        arriving in Dominica in 1987 and Martinique in 1994. I
                        don't think they have been recorded yet on any islands
                        to the south of Martinique except Trinidad, far to the
                        south, where I photographed one (origin unknown) in
                        2000.

                        Floyd Hayes
                        Hidden Valley Lake, CA



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                      • Kimball Garrett
                        [Note: I m not the listowner, but it s my opinion that Streptopelia doves are part of the California avifauna, and therefore fair game for discussion on this
                        Message 11 of 16 , Sep 7, 2007
                          [Note: I'm not the listowner, but it's my opinion that Streptopelia
                          doves are part of the California avifauna, and therefore fair game for
                          discussion on this list serve; I agree that discussions of population
                          genetics may not qualify, however.]

                          Two quick points:

                          (1) Floyd surely is seeing African Collared-Doves (= "Barbary" or
                          "Ringed Turtle-" Doves), and I didn't mean to imply in my previous
                          messages that pale variant ECDs were the only possible explanation for
                          what he was seeing. Domestic African Collared-Doves (ACDs or RTDs)
                          escape very frequently, and of course central Los Angeles used to have a
                          population that was even "ABA Countable" in the 1960s and 1970s (and had
                          been established by the 1940s or earlier). Various morphs of ACDs are
                          still released at the sorts of celebrations and public events that
                          require liberation of large numbers of totally discombobulated domestic
                          birds, and individuals escape all the time.

                          (2) Regarding the discussion of ECDs being largely absent from most
                          large urban areas such as the main San Francisco Bay metropolis, I think
                          this is partly a matter of habitat -- this species generally doesn't do
                          well in heavily urban areas. ECDs are absent or rare (tiny, very
                          localized populations) in most of the greater Los Angeles urban area as
                          well. This species depends almost entirely on grain -- in agricultural
                          areas, weedy rural areas, industrial areas with grain mills, railroad
                          right-of-ways in grain-producing regions, etc. Just about its only
                          option in highly urbanized areas is commercial bird seed at feeders, and
                          apparently there aren't enough feeders to sustain ECD populations in
                          most highly urbanized areas.

                          I'd much rather be out looking at Arctic Warblers than blabbing on about
                          feral doves....

                          Kimball

                          Kimball L. Garrett
                          Ornithology Collections Manager
                          Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
                          900 Exposition Blvd.
                          Los Angeles CA 90007
                          (213) 763-3368
                          (213) 746-2999 FAX
                          kgarrett@...


                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On
                          Behalf
                          > Of Floyd Hayes
                          > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 10:59 AM
                          > To: Calbirds
                          > Subject: [CALBIRDS] RE: How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                          >
                          > I don't doubt that there are pale Eurasian
                          > Collared-Doves resembling African Collared-Doves, but
                          > I was familiar with both of these species from the
                          > Caribbean and I'm quite confident both are present in
                          > the Napa Valley.
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