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Re: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?

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  • Bruce Deuel
    The A.O.U. (47th supplement to the checklist, 2006) has decreed that risoria IS roseogrisea. Cheers, Bruce Deuel Redding 33 ... Floyd, I think most consider
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
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      The A.O.U. (47th supplement to the checklist, 2006) has decreed that risoria IS roseogrisea.

      Cheers,
      Bruce Deuel
      Redding
      33

      >>> "Steve Hampton" <shampton@...> 9/6/2007 12:52 PM >>>
      Floyd,

      I think most consider the African Collared-Dove and the Ringed Turtle-Dove to be distinct species, so really there are three similar species we are talking about:

      Ringed Turtle-Dove Streptopelia risoria
      African Collared-Dove Streptopelia roseogrisea
      Eurasian Collared-Dove Streptopelia decaocto

      Decaocto is now widespread in SE Calif and spreading NW (from the nationwide expansion), and also has some established populations along the coast (from previous releases). It does associate with and hybridize with risoria on occasion, but in general risoria is rare in the wild, probably limited to escapees who seem to find decaocto when lonely. I haven't heard of roseogrisea in California.

      good birding,



      Steve Hampton
      ________________
      Resource Economist
      Office of Spill Prevention and Response
      California Dept of Fish and Game
      PO Box 944209
      Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
      -----------------------------------
      (916) 323-4724 phone
      (916) 324-8829 fax
      >>> Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes@...> 09/05/07 10:39 AM >>>
      How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
      Ringed Turtle-Dove)? Multiple African Collared-Doves
      and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
      time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
      Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
      alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
      implications would be for human assistance in the
      spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.

      Floyd Hayes
      Hidden Valley Lake, CA



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    • Alvaro Jaramillo
      Steve It is confusing, but risoria (Ringed Turtle-Dove) is considered a domesticated form or roseogrisea (African Collared-Dove). So it is akin to saying
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
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        Steve



        It is confusing, but risoria (Ringed Turtle-Dove) is considered a
        domesticated form or roseogrisea (African Collared-Dove). So it is akin to
        saying Ringed Turtle-Dove is to African Collared-Dove as Canis familiaris
        (Dog) is to Canis lupus (Wolf). It is strange that some domesticated animals
        have a species designation to begin with, but we do have them. I wonder if
        in time we will also have Homo sapiens urbanus, for �city folk.�



        Cheers



        Al



        Alvaro Jaramillo

        HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@..."chucao@...

        Half Moon Bay, California



        Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

        HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

        _____

        From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of Steve Hampton
        Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 12:53 PM
        To: calbirds@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?



        Floyd,

        I think most consider the African Collared-Dove and the Ringed Turtle-Dove
        to be distinct species, so really there are three similar species we are
        talking about:

        Ringed Turtle-Dove Streptopelia risoria
        African Collared-Dove Streptopelia roseogrisea
        Eurasian Collared-Dove Streptopelia decaocto

        Decaocto is now widespread in SE Calif and spreading NW (from the nationwide
        expansion), and also has some established populations along the coast (from
        previous releases). It does associate with and hybridize with risoria on
        occasion, but in general risoria is rare in the wild, probably limited to
        escapees who seem to find decaocto when lonely. I haven't heard of
        roseogrisea in California.

        good birding,

        Steve Hampton
        ____________-____
        Resource Economist
        Office of Spill Prevention and Response
        California Dept of Fish and Game
        PO Box 944209
        Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
        --------------------------------------
        (916) 323-4724 phone
        (916) 324-8829 fax
        >>> Floyd Hayes <HYPERLINK
        "mailto:floyd_hayes%40yahoo.com"floyd_hayes@...> 09/05/07 10:39 AM
        >>>
        How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
        Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
        and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
        time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
        Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
        alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
        implications would be for human assistance in the
        spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.

        Floyd Hayes
        Hidden Valley Lake, CA

        ____________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_
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      • Kimball Garrett
        Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.): Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. Ringed Turtle-Dove is indeed merely the domesticated form of
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
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          Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.):

          Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. "Ringed Turtle-Dove" is
          indeed merely the domesticated form of African Collared-Dove,
          Streptopelia roseogrisea. There is (fortunately) a trend away from
          providing separate binomials for domesticated forms, though it is of
          interest that Linnaeus coined the binomial Streptopelia risoria (for
          "Ringed Turtle-Dove" or "Barbary Dove") before Streptopelia roseogrisea
          was named in 1857. I do have another, related, comment.

          From my experience and that of many others with whom I've discussed
          this, occasional pale morphs are often seen with established Eurasian
          Collared-Dove (ECD) populations. In most cases these birds don't
          exactly match "classic" creamy-colored, small "Ringed Turtle-Doves"
          (RTDs), but they certainly differ from the expected phenotype of ECD.
          Years ago, one popular explanation was that these were RTDs that
          probably escaped from the same dove breeders who lost the ECDs (along,
          no doubt, with hybrids), thus supporting the notion that all of the
          various populations in California and neighboring regions resulted from
          local releases. Now, of course, it is clear that most of our ECD
          populations are part of the massive and rapid continent-wide expansion
          of this species, and that "local origin" can only be proved in a few
          cases.

          My suspicion, without the benefit of specimens or DNA sequences to back
          it up, is that a pale phenotype of ECD turns up occasionally in most
          populations, perhaps maintained as a recessive trait in the expanding
          populations. Perhaps this phenotype has its genetic origins in past
          captive breeding shenanigans (e.g. selective breeding for pale
          coloration, or cross-breeding with RTDs?). Or, perhaps, RTD genes were
          picked up through interbreeding as ECDs spread across North America
          (occasionally coming onto contact with escaped RTDs). But most likely
          it is just a rare morph of ECD. Quoting from Derek Goodwin's Pigeons and
          Doves of the World (Cornell Univ. Press, 1983): "Besides variation
          within the normal range [of Eurasian Collared-Dove], very pale
          individuals and others that are creamy buff like 'S. risoria' [RTD}
          occur quite frequently in Britain. There is no reason to suppose the
          mutants are of hybrid origin." Mention of pale creamy buff variants is
          also made in the BNA account by Christina Romagosa, and such morphs were
          noted by Bill Smith in some of the earliest populations established in
          the U. S.

          In any case, my point is that I'm not sure we should necessarily call
          these pale birds RTDs (or, more properly, domesticated forms of African
          Collared-Doves), absent a more thorough study. It seems likely that many
          or most of them are ECDs. If you encounter a pale bird, pay close
          attention to voice; the relatively clear 3-note cooing ("coo-COO-coo")
          of ECD is utterly different from the guttural "koo-kRRRRooo" of RTDs.

          Kimball

          Kimball L. Garrett
          Ornithology Collections Manager
          Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
          900 Exposition Blvd.
          Los Angeles CA 90007
          (213) 763-3368
          (213) 746-2999 FAX
          kgarrett@...

          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf
          > Of Floyd Hayes
          > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:40 AM
          > To: Calbirds
          > Subject: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
          >
          > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
          > Ringed Turtle-Dove)? Multiple African Collared-Doves
          > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
          > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
          > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
          > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
          > implications would be for human assistance in the
          > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
          >
          > Floyd Hayes
          > Hidden Valley Lake, CA
        • Janet Leonard
          FYI- The species designation for domestic animals, probably, I think, goes back to Linnaeus who was not thinking in evolutionary terms, merely sorting things
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
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            FYI-

            The species designation for domestic animals, probably, I think, goes back
            to Linnaeus who was not thinking in evolutionary terms, merely sorting
            things into pigeonholes. These designations
            should probably get cleared up and abolished but they have a certain
            practical utility; e.g. studies of Canis lupus in the Western US are quite
            different from what would be the case if domestic dogs were included. Also,
            there is a tendency for splitting to persist for higher vertebrates even
            when we know that there are no reproductive barriers. A bit off-message for
            this group but maybe of general interest.


            Jan Leonard

            Half Moon Bay


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Alvaro Jaramillo" <chucao@...>
            To: "'Steve Hampton'" <shampton@...>; <calbirds@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 1:37 PM
            Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?


            Steve



            It is confusing, but risoria (Ringed Turtle-Dove) is considered a
            domesticated form or roseogrisea (African Collared-Dove). So it is akin to
            saying Ringed Turtle-Dove is to African Collared-Dove as Canis familiaris
            (Dog) is to Canis lupus (Wolf). It is strange that some domesticated animals
            have a species designation to begin with, but we do have them. I wonder if
            in time we will also have Homo sapiens urbanus, for "city folk."



            Cheers



            Al



            Alvaro Jaramillo

            HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@..."chucao@...

            Half Moon Bay, California



            Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

            HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

            _____

            From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of Steve Hampton
            Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 12:53 PM
            To: calbirds@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?



            Floyd,

            I think most consider the African Collared-Dove and the Ringed Turtle-Dove
            to be distinct species, so really there are three similar species we are
            talking about:

            Ringed Turtle-Dove Streptopelia risoria
            African Collared-Dove Streptopelia roseogrisea
            Eurasian Collared-Dove Streptopelia decaocto

            Decaocto is now widespread in SE Calif and spreading NW (from the nationwide
            expansion), and also has some established populations along the coast (from
            previous releases). It does associate with and hybridize with risoria on
            occasion, but in general risoria is rare in the wild, probably limited to
            escapees who seem to find decaocto when lonely. I haven't heard of
            roseogrisea in California.

            good birding,

            Steve Hampton
            ____________-____
            Resource Economist
            Office of Spill Prevention and Response
            California Dept of Fish and Game
            PO Box 944209
            Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
            --------------------------------------
            (916) 323-4724 phone
            (916) 324-8829 fax
            >>> Floyd Hayes <HYPERLINK
            "mailto:floyd_hayes%40yahoo.com"floyd_hayes@...> 09/05/07 10:39 AM
            >>>
            How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
            Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
            and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
            time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
            Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
            alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
            implications would be for human assistance in the
            spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.

            Floyd Hayes
            Hidden Valley Lake, CA

            ____________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_
            Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car
            Finder tool.
            HYPERLINK
            "http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/"http://autos.-yahoo.com/-carfinder/

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          • Alvaro Jaramillo
            Kimball et al. Believe it or not I was thinking of sending a note along the same lines as what you wrote to ID frontiers, but now that the conversation is on
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
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              Kimball et al.



              Believe it or not I was thinking of sending a note along the same lines
              as what you wrote to ID frontiers, but now that the conversation is on here,
              I will add a few bits. I have been seeing a small proportion of the Half
              Moon Bay, San Mateo County population of Euro Collared-Dove which are pale,
              �risoria-like� but definitely E. Collared-Doves. I too have wondered about
              the significance of this, and have thought that it is not due to local
              releases, or hybridization but an aspect of the founder population in North
              America. I guess that the slightly different spin I would put on it is that
              the key elements may be the amazing expansion of the population and the
              short time it has taken for this to happen. Assuming that the founder
              population (Bahamas was it?) had pale Ringed T-D like birds, these genes
              will remain in the growing population in the same proportion as they started
              unless there is direct selection against them. My guess is that there is
              selection against them, but given the huge and quick expansion there just
              hasn�t been that much time for this genotype to get weeded out from the
              general population. I am no population geneticist, but I wonder also if in
              an exponentially growing population which seems to have no immediate
              limitation in its population growth, if selection against a plumage type
              such as this is somehow lessened? So if we started with a founder population
              of let�s say 5% pale birds, in such a short time (twenty years or so?) the
              expanding population may still have several percent pale birds involved. I
              would predict that as populations eventually stabilize, and higher levels of
              competition set in as the Collared-Dove niche is �filled� these pale birds
              will be weeded out by natural selection (differential predation on them,
              aggression from other doves, perhaps lesser ability to forage effectively
              due to this�etc). Like I said, I am no population geneticist, and if there
              is one out there who can say � Al you are full of it, I would be happy to
              learn from someone �in the know.�

              Also, some additional information about Caribbean populations
              which I have been able to see while on tour. In the Lesser Antilles, the
              distribution of the dove is still expanding, and it appears that there may
              have been more than the one introduction to the Bahamas. For example the
              French Islands (Martinique and Guadeloupe) have huge populations of the
              dove, while the island in-between (Dominica) has very few. The French
              Islands are much more built up than Dominica, and this surely has an effect,
              but given that the French Islands have various other introduced species,
              while Dominica does not, suggests that the dove was introduced to the French
              Islands. Puerto Rico also has a population which may have been an
              independent introduction from the Bahamas birds. The birds in Puerto Rico
              are very mixed looking, patchy birds, pale birds etc. The general thought is
              that they are mixed populations between Euro Collared-Dove and �Ringed
              Turtle-Dove� however on the west side of the island where the population was
              pretty big, vocally birds were Eurasian Collared-Doves, although their
              appearance was variable. In Guadeloupe and Martinique, birds were more
              standard looking although pale birds were regularly seen.



              Regards



              Alvaro



              Alvaro Jaramillo

              HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@..."chucao@...

              Half Moon Bay, California



              Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

              HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

              _____

              From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of Kimball Garrett
              Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 2:13 PM
              To: Floyd Hayes; Calbirds
              Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?



              Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.):

              Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. "Ringed Turtle-Dove" is
              indeed merely the domesticated form of African Collared-Dove,
              Streptopelia roseogrisea. There is (fortunately) a trend away from
              providing separate binomials for domesticated forms, though it is of
              interest that Linnaeus coined the binomial Streptopelia risoria (for
              "Ringed Turtle-Dove" or "Barbary Dove") before Streptopelia roseogrisea
              was named in 1857. I do have another, related, comment.

              From my experience and that of many others with whom I've discussed
              this, occasional pale morphs are often seen with established Eurasian
              Collared-Dove (ECD) populations. In most cases these birds don't
              exactly match "classic" creamy-colored, small "Ringed Turtle-Doves"
              (RTDs), but they certainly differ from the expected phenotype of ECD.
              Years ago, one popular explanation was that these were RTDs that
              probably escaped from the same dove breeders who lost the ECDs (along,
              no doubt, with hybrids), thus supporting the notion that all of the
              various populations in California and neighboring regions resulted from
              local releases. Now, of course, it is clear that most of our ECD
              populations are part of the massive and rapid continent-wide expansion
              of this species, and that "local origin" can only be proved in a few
              cases.

              My suspicion, without the benefit of specimens or DNA sequences to back
              it up, is that a pale phenotype of ECD turns up occasionally in most
              populations, perhaps maintained as a recessive trait in the expanding
              populations. Perhaps this phenotype has its genetic origins in past
              captive breeding shenanigans (e.g. selective breeding for pale
              coloration, or cross-breeding with RTDs?). Or, perhaps, RTD genes were
              picked up through interbreeding as ECDs spread across North America
              (occasionally coming onto contact with escaped RTDs). But most likely
              it is just a rare morph of ECD. Quoting from Derek Goodwin's Pigeons and
              Doves of the World (Cornell Univ. Press, 1983): "Besides variation
              within the normal range [of Eurasian Collared-Dove]-, very pale
              individuals and others that are creamy buff like 'S. risoria' [RTD}
              occur quite frequently in Britain. There is no reason to suppose the
              mutants are of hybrid origin." Mention of pale creamy buff variants is
              also made in the BNA account by Christina Romagosa, and such morphs were
              noted by Bill Smith in some of the earliest populations established in
              the U. S.

              In any case, my point is that I'm not sure we should necessarily call
              these pale birds RTDs (or, more properly, domesticated forms of African
              Collared-Doves)-, absent a more thorough study. It seems likely that many
              or most of them are ECDs. If you encounter a pale bird, pay close
              attention to voice; the relatively clear 3-note cooing ("coo-COO-coo"-)
              of ECD is utterly different from the guttural "koo-kRRRRooo" of RTDs.

              Kimball

              Kimball L. Garrett
              Ornithology Collections Manager
              Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
              900 Exposition Blvd.
              Los Angeles CA 90007
              (213) 763-3368
              (213) 746-2999 FAX
              HYPERLINK "mailto:kgarrett%40nhm.org"kgarrett@nhm.-org

              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: HYPERLINK
              "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com"CALBIRDS@...
              [mailto:HYPERLINK
              "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com"CALBIRDS@...] On
              Behalf
              > Of Floyd Hayes
              > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:40 AM
              > To: Calbirds
              > Subject: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
              >
              > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
              > Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
              > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
              > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
              > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
              > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
              > implications would be for human assistance in the
              > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
              >
              > Floyd Hayes
              > Hidden Valley Lake, CA




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            • Janet Leonard
              Al- If a population is rapidly expanding, it must by definition be experiencing relatively low natural selection because more young survive and reproduce than
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Al-

                If a population is rapidly expanding, it must by definition be experiencing
                relatively low natural selection because more young survive and reproduce
                than in stable populations. Therefore, your argument about recessives not
                being weeded out makes sense.


                Jan Leonard

                Half Moon Bay

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Alvaro Jaramillo" <chucao@...>
                To: "'Kimball Garrett'" <kgarrett@...>; "'Floyd Hayes'"
                <floyd_hayes@...>; "'Calbirds'" <calbirds@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:28 PM
                Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?


                Kimball et al.



                Believe it or not I was thinking of sending a note along the same lines
                as what you wrote to ID frontiers, but now that the conversation is on here,
                I will add a few bits. I have been seeing a small proportion of the Half
                Moon Bay, San Mateo County population of Euro Collared-Dove which are pale,
                "risoria-like" but definitely E. Collared-Doves. I too have wondered about
                the significance of this, and have thought that it is not due to local
                releases, or hybridization but an aspect of the founder population in North
                America. I guess that the slightly different spin I would put on it is that
                the key elements may be the amazing expansion of the population and the
                short time it has taken for this to happen. Assuming that the founder
                population (Bahamas was it?) had pale Ringed T-D like birds, these genes
                will remain in the growing population in the same proportion as they started
                unless there is direct selection against them. My guess is that there is
                selection against them, but given the huge and quick expansion there just
                hasn't been that much time for this genotype to get weeded out from the
                general population. I am no population geneticist, but I wonder also if in
                an exponentially growing population which seems to have no immediate
                limitation in its population growth, if selection against a plumage type
                such as this is somehow lessened? So if we started with a founder population
                of let's say 5% pale birds, in such a short time (twenty years or so?) the
                expanding population may still have several percent pale birds involved. I
                would predict that as populations eventually stabilize, and higher levels of
                competition set in as the Collared-Dove niche is "filled" these pale birds
                will be weeded out by natural selection (differential predation on them,
                aggression from other doves, perhaps lesser ability to forage effectively
                due to this.etc). Like I said, I am no population geneticist, and if there
                is one out there who can say - Al you are full of it, I would be happy to
                learn from someone "in the know."

                Also, some additional information about Caribbean populations
                which I have been able to see while on tour. In the Lesser Antilles, the
                distribution of the dove is still expanding, and it appears that there may
                have been more than the one introduction to the Bahamas. For example the
                French Islands (Martinique and Guadeloupe) have huge populations of the
                dove, while the island in-between (Dominica) has very few. The French
                Islands are much more built up than Dominica, and this surely has an effect,
                but given that the French Islands have various other introduced species,
                while Dominica does not, suggests that the dove was introduced to the French
                Islands. Puerto Rico also has a population which may have been an
                independent introduction from the Bahamas birds. The birds in Puerto Rico
                are very mixed looking, patchy birds, pale birds etc. The general thought is
                that they are mixed populations between Euro Collared-Dove and "Ringed
                Turtle-Dove" however on the west side of the island where the population was
                pretty big, vocally birds were Eurasian Collared-Doves, although their
                appearance was variable. In Guadeloupe and Martinique, birds were more
                standard looking although pale birds were regularly seen.



                Regards



                Alvaro



                Alvaro Jaramillo

                HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@..."chucao@...

                Half Moon Bay, California



                Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

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                _____

                From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of Kimball Garrett
                Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 2:13 PM
                To: Floyd Hayes; Calbirds
                Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?



                Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.):

                Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. "Ringed Turtle-Dove" is
                indeed merely the domesticated form of African Collared-Dove,
                Streptopelia roseogrisea. There is (fortunately) a trend away from
                providing separate binomials for domesticated forms, though it is of
                interest that Linnaeus coined the binomial Streptopelia risoria (for
                "Ringed Turtle-Dove" or "Barbary Dove") before Streptopelia roseogrisea
                was named in 1857. I do have another, related, comment.

                >From my experience and that of many others with whom I've discussed
                this, occasional pale morphs are often seen with established Eurasian
                Collared-Dove (ECD) populations. In most cases these birds don't
                exactly match "classic" creamy-colored, small "Ringed Turtle-Doves"
                (RTDs), but they certainly differ from the expected phenotype of ECD.
                Years ago, one popular explanation was that these were RTDs that
                probably escaped from the same dove breeders who lost the ECDs (along,
                no doubt, with hybrids), thus supporting the notion that all of the
                various populations in California and neighboring regions resulted from
                local releases. Now, of course, it is clear that most of our ECD
                populations are part of the massive and rapid continent-wide expansion
                of this species, and that "local origin" can only be proved in a few
                cases.

                My suspicion, without the benefit of specimens or DNA sequences to back
                it up, is that a pale phenotype of ECD turns up occasionally in most
                populations, perhaps maintained as a recessive trait in the expanding
                populations. Perhaps this phenotype has its genetic origins in past
                captive breeding shenanigans (e.g. selective breeding for pale
                coloration, or cross-breeding with RTDs?). Or, perhaps, RTD genes were
                picked up through interbreeding as ECDs spread across North America
                (occasionally coming onto contact with escaped RTDs). But most likely
                it is just a rare morph of ECD. Quoting from Derek Goodwin's Pigeons and
                Doves of the World (Cornell Univ. Press, 1983): "Besides variation
                within the normal range [of Eurasian Collared-Dove]-, very pale
                individuals and others that are creamy buff like 'S. risoria' [RTD}
                occur quite frequently in Britain. There is no reason to suppose the
                mutants are of hybrid origin." Mention of pale creamy buff variants is
                also made in the BNA account by Christina Romagosa, and such morphs were
                noted by Bill Smith in some of the earliest populations established in
                the U. S.

                In any case, my point is that I'm not sure we should necessarily call
                these pale birds RTDs (or, more properly, domesticated forms of African
                Collared-Doves)-, absent a more thorough study. It seems likely that many
                or most of them are ECDs. If you encounter a pale bird, pay close
                attention to voice; the relatively clear 3-note cooing ("coo-COO-coo"-)
                of ECD is utterly different from the guttural "koo-kRRRRooo" of RTDs.

                Kimball

                Kimball L. Garrett
                Ornithology Collections Manager
                Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
                900 Exposition Blvd.
                Los Angeles CA 90007
                (213) 763-3368
                (213) 746-2999 FAX
                HYPERLINK "mailto:kgarrett%40nhm.org"kgarrett@nhm.-org

                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: HYPERLINK
                "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com"CALBIRDS@...
                [mailto:HYPERLINK
                "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com"CALBIRDS@...] On
                Behalf
                > Of Floyd Hayes
                > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:40 AM
                > To: Calbirds
                > Subject: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                >
                > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
                > Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
                > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
                > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
                > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
                > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
                > implications would be for human assistance in the
                > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
                >
                > Floyd Hayes
                > Hidden Valley Lake, CA




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                3:18 PM



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                3:18 PM
              • Adam Winer
                We ve veered far off the e-mail lists here, but that assertion is mathematically false. Differential survival rates of genotypes would have a huge impact on
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  We've veered far off the e-mail lists here, but that assertion
                  is mathematically false. Differential survival rates of
                  genotypes would have a huge impact on the eventual proportions
                  in a rapidly expanding population, for exactly the same reason that
                  relatively small differences in per-year returns on monetary investments
                  have an enormous effect over long periods.

                  The issue is not whether pale individuals are producing enough
                  to expand rapidly; it's whether they're producing enough to
                  expand as rapidly as "standard" individuals. As with anything
                  biological, many caveats apply - is this a recessive gene, if so are there
                  heterozygote advantages, is it more or less advantageous in some
                  habitats, etc. etc. But the basic point stands: were this a
                  significantly deleterious gene, it should get blasted out of
                  the gene pool in the course of the population explosion.

                  (BTW, I think the core fallacy is "rapidly expanding" equals
                  "low natural selection". Intensity of natural selection has
                  nothing to do with overall population changes, and everything to
                  do with relative reproductive success across genotypes.)

                  -- Adam Winer


                  On 9/6/07, Janet Leonard <jlleonar@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Al-
                  >
                  > If a population is rapidly expanding, it must by definition be
                  > experiencing
                  > relatively low natural selection because more young survive and reproduce
                  > than in stable populations. Therefore, your argument about recessives not
                  > being weeded out makes sense.
                  >
                  > Jan Leonard
                  >
                  > Half Moon Bay
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Alvaro Jaramillo" <chucao@... <chucao%40coastside.net>>
                  > To: "'Kimball Garrett'" <kgarrett@... <kgarrett%40nhm.org>>; "'Floyd
                  > Hayes'"
                  > <floyd_hayes@... <floyd_hayes%40yahoo.com>>; "'Calbirds'" <
                  > calbirds@yahoogroups.com <calbirds%40yahoogroups.com>>
                  > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:28 PM
                  > Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                  >
                  > Kimball et al.
                  >
                  > Believe it or not I was thinking of sending a note along the same lines
                  > as what you wrote to ID frontiers, but now that the conversation is on
                  > here,
                  > I will add a few bits. I have been seeing a small proportion of the Half
                  > Moon Bay, San Mateo County population of Euro Collared-Dove which are
                  > pale,
                  > "risoria-like" but definitely E. Collared-Doves. I too have wondered about
                  > the significance of this, and have thought that it is not due to local
                  > releases, or hybridization but an aspect of the founder population in
                  > North
                  > America. I guess that the slightly different spin I would put on it is
                  > that
                  > the key elements may be the amazing expansion of the population and the
                  > short time it has taken for this to happen. Assuming that the founder
                  > population (Bahamas was it?) had pale Ringed T-D like birds, these genes
                  > will remain in the growing population in the same proportion as they
                  > started
                  > unless there is direct selection against them. My guess is that there is
                  > selection against them, but given the huge and quick expansion there just
                  > hasn't been that much time for this genotype to get weeded out from the
                  > general population. I am no population geneticist, but I wonder also if in
                  > an exponentially growing population which seems to have no immediate
                  > limitation in its population growth, if selection against a plumage type
                  > such as this is somehow lessened? So if we started with a founder
                  > population
                  > of let's say 5% pale birds, in such a short time (twenty years or so?) the
                  > expanding population may still have several percent pale birds involved. I
                  > would predict that as populations eventually stabilize, and higher levels
                  > of
                  > competition set in as the Collared-Dove niche is "filled" these pale birds
                  > will be weeded out by natural selection (differential predation on them,
                  > aggression from other doves, perhaps lesser ability to forage effectively
                  > due to this.etc). Like I said, I am no population geneticist, and if there
                  > is one out there who can say - Al you are full of it, I would be happy to
                  > learn from someone "in the know."
                  >
                  > Also, some additional information about Caribbean populations
                  > which I have been able to see while on tour. In the Lesser Antilles, the
                  > distribution of the dove is still expanding, and it appears that there may
                  > have been more than the one introduction to the Bahamas. For example the
                  > French Islands (Martinique and Guadeloupe) have huge populations of the
                  > dove, while the island in-between (Dominica) has very few. The French
                  > Islands are much more built up than Dominica, and this surely has an
                  > effect,
                  > but given that the French Islands have various other introduced species,
                  > while Dominica does not, suggests that the dove was introduced to the
                  > French
                  > Islands. Puerto Rico also has a population which may have been an
                  > independent introduction from the Bahamas birds. The birds in Puerto Rico
                  > are very mixed looking, patchy birds, pale birds etc. The general thought
                  > is
                  > that they are mixed populations between Euro Collared-Dove and "Ringed
                  > Turtle-Dove" however on the west side of the island where the population
                  > was
                  > pretty big, vocally birds were Eurasian Collared-Doves, although their
                  > appearance was variable. In Guadeloupe and Martinique, birds were more
                  > standard looking although pale birds were regularly seen.
                  >
                  > Regards
                  >
                  > Alvaro
                  >
                  > Alvaro Jaramillo
                  >
                  > HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@... <chucao%40coastside.net>"
                  > chucao@... <chucao%40coastside.net>
                  >
                  > Half Moon Bay, California
                  >
                  > Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
                  >
                  > HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com
                  >
                  > _____
                  >
                  > From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com <CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                  > CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com <CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
                  > Of Kimball Garrett
                  > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 2:13 PM
                  > To: Floyd Hayes; Calbirds
                  > Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                  >
                  > Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.):
                  >
                  > Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. "Ringed Turtle-Dove" is
                  > indeed merely the domesticated form of African Collared-Dove,
                  > Streptopelia roseogrisea. There is (fortunately) a trend away from
                  > providing separate binomials for domesticated forms, though it is of
                  > interest that Linnaeus coined the binomial Streptopelia risoria (for
                  > "Ringed Turtle-Dove" or "Barbary Dove") before Streptopelia roseogrisea
                  > was named in 1857. I do have another, related, comment.
                  >
                  > >From my experience and that of many others with whom I've discussed
                  > this, occasional pale morphs are often seen with established Eurasian
                  > Collared-Dove (ECD) populations. In most cases these birds don't
                  > exactly match "classic" creamy-colored, small "Ringed Turtle-Doves"
                  > (RTDs), but they certainly differ from the expected phenotype of ECD.
                  > Years ago, one popular explanation was that these were RTDs that
                  > probably escaped from the same dove breeders who lost the ECDs (along,
                  > no doubt, with hybrids), thus supporting the notion that all of the
                  > various populations in California and neighboring regions resulted from
                  > local releases. Now, of course, it is clear that most of our ECD
                  > populations are part of the massive and rapid continent-wide expansion
                  > of this species, and that "local origin" can only be proved in a few
                  > cases.
                  >
                  > My suspicion, without the benefit of specimens or DNA sequences to back
                  > it up, is that a pale phenotype of ECD turns up occasionally in most
                  > populations, perhaps maintained as a recessive trait in the expanding
                  > populations. Perhaps this phenotype has its genetic origins in past
                  > captive breeding shenanigans (e.g. selective breeding for pale
                  > coloration, or cross-breeding with RTDs?). Or, perhaps, RTD genes were
                  > picked up through interbreeding as ECDs spread across North America
                  > (occasionally coming onto contact with escaped RTDs). But most likely
                  > it is just a rare morph of ECD. Quoting from Derek Goodwin's Pigeons and
                  > Doves of the World (Cornell Univ. Press, 1983): "Besides variation
                  > within the normal range [of Eurasian Collared-Dove]-, very pale
                  > individuals and others that are creamy buff like 'S. risoria' [RTD}
                  > occur quite frequently in Britain. There is no reason to suppose the
                  > mutants are of hybrid origin." Mention of pale creamy buff variants is
                  > also made in the BNA account by Christina Romagosa, and such morphs were
                  > noted by Bill Smith in some of the earliest populations established in
                  > the U. S.
                  >
                  > In any case, my point is that I'm not sure we should necessarily call
                  > these pale birds RTDs (or, more properly, domesticated forms of African
                  > Collared-Doves)-, absent a more thorough study. It seems likely that many
                  > or most of them are ECDs. If you encounter a pale bird, pay close
                  > attention to voice; the relatively clear 3-note cooing ("coo-COO-coo"-)
                  > of ECD is utterly different from the guttural "koo-kRRRRooo" of RTDs.
                  >
                  > Kimball
                  >
                  > Kimball L. Garrett
                  > Ornithology Collections Manager
                  > Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
                  > 900 Exposition Blvd.
                  > Los Angeles CA 90007
                  > (213) 763-3368
                  > (213) 746-2999 FAX
                  > HYPERLINK "mailto:kgarrett% <kgarrett%25>40nhm.org"kgarrett@nhm.-org
                  >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: HYPERLINK
                  > "mailto:CALBIRDS% <CALBIRDS%25>40yahoogroups.com"CALBIRDS@...<CALBIRDS%40yahoogroup-s.com>
                  > [mailto:HYPERLINK
                  > "mailto:CALBIRDS% <CALBIRDS%25>40yahoogroups.com"CALBIRDS@...<CALBIRDS%40yahoogroup-s.com>]
                  > On
                  > Behalf
                  > > Of Floyd Hayes
                  > > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:40 AM
                  > > To: Calbirds
                  > > Subject: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                  > >
                  > > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
                  > > Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
                  > > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
                  > > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
                  > > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
                  > > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
                  > > implications would be for human assistance in the
                  > > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
                  > >
                  > > Floyd Hayes
                  > > Hidden Valley Lake, CA
                  >
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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Chet ogan
                  Floyd, I found breeding Eurasian Collared Dove in 2006 in Humboldt County, to my recollection they were first found at a feed and grain store in Eureka in
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Floyd,
                    I found breeding Eurasian Collared Dove in 2006 in
                    Humboldt County, to my recollection they were first
                    found at a feed and grain store in Eureka in 2005. I
                    also had Eurasian Collared Dove at Cedarville, Modoc
                    Co in July 2006. I saw my first Ringed Turtle Dove in
                    Carpinteria, Ca in 2000 and Eurasian Collared Dove at
                    the same exact location in 2001.

                    Chet Ogan
                    Eureka, Humboldt Co

                    --- Steve Hampton <shampton@...> wrote:

                    > Floyd,
                    >
                    > I think most consider the African Collared-Dove and
                    > the Ringed Turtle-Dove to be distinct species, so
                    > really there are three similar species we are
                    > talking about:
                    >
                    > Ringed Turtle-Dove Streptopelia risoria
                    > African Collared-Dove Streptopelia roseogrisea
                    > Eurasian Collared-Dove Streptopelia decaocto
                    >
                    > Decaocto is now widespread in SE Calif and spreading
                    > NW (from the nationwide expansion), and also has
                    > some established populations along the coast (from
                    > previous releases). It does associate with and
                    > hybridize with risoria on occasion, but in general
                    > risoria is rare in the wild, probably limited to
                    > escapees who seem to find decaocto when lonely. I
                    > haven't heard of roseogrisea in California.
                    >
                    > good birding,
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Steve Hampton
                    > ________________
                    > Resource Economist
                    > Office of Spill Prevention and Response
                    > California Dept of Fish and Game
                    > PO Box 944209
                    > Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
                    > -----------------------------------
                    > (916) 323-4724 phone
                    > (916) 324-8829 fax
                    > >>> Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes@...> 09/05/07
                    > 10:39 AM >>>
                    > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
                    > Ringed Turtle-Dove)? Multiple African Collared-Doves
                    > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the
                    > same
                    > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
                    > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
                    > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
                    > implications would be for human assistance in the
                    > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
                    >
                    > Floyd Hayes
                    > Hidden Valley Lake, CA
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    Imagine there's no countries . . .It isn't hard to do
                    Nothing to kill or die for . . . . And no religion too
                    Imagine all the people . . . .. .Living life in peace...
                    - J Lennon-

                    Chet Ogan
                    chet_ogan@...
                    707-442-9353
                  • Alvaro Jaramillo
                    Adam I know exactly what you mean, this is why the time argument is the one that I am most confident in. Even with moderate selection against the pale birds,
                    Message 9 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Adam



                      I know exactly what you mean, this is why the time argument is the one
                      that I am most confident in. Even with moderate selection against the pale
                      birds, there may not have been much time to dent their relative proportion
                      yet. I mean we really are talking about a short time frame here as far as
                      populations go. I would throw out the idea that this is a �recessive gene�
                      that is a very specific situation which I think is unlikely in this case.
                      The �risoria-like� phenotype is probably due to more than one gene, although
                      this is a guess. But then again the property of a gene being recessive or
                      dominant has nothing to do with shifting its proportions in a population, as
                      you note, selection for or against the gene does. This is why blue eyes are
                      not �bred out� when blue eyed people have kids with brown eyed people, the
                      genes stay in the same proportions as they started in�unless there is
                      selection against them. So I would argue that the pale birds we see are
                      still an effect of the founder population, there just hasn�t been enough
                      time for this genotype to be selected out, but my guess is that it will, or
                      at least it�s proportion will stabilize at a lower number than it is now.



                      By the way, here in Half Moon Bay, San Mateo County the Collared Dove is now
                      the second most common dove in town after Mourning. There are more of them
                      than Rock Pigeon, and at least in town more than Band-tailed Pigeons. It
                      only took three years or so for this to happen. What is interesting is how
                      these doves colonize a place. They seem to have nuclei of occurrence where
                      they begin from, and then expand outwardly from there. It is not a broad
                      front invasion, but disparate spots where they arrive, and then the
                      intervening areas fill in. This is a rather different mode of expansion than
                      most other bird expansions we have seen on the continent. This is certainly
                      THE ornithological event of our birding lifetimes I would say, and we are
                      all overlooking it. Has there ever been such a massive expansion in such a
                      quick time of any bird on the continent? The next best avian expansion story
                      that I can think of is Great-tailed Grackle, but that pales to what these
                      doves are doing. I mean the entire continent has been taken over in a few
                      years.



                      Thanks for the note!



                      Al



                      Alvaro Jaramillo

                      HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@..."chucao@...

                      Half Moon Bay, California



                      Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

                      HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

                      _____

                      From: Adam Winer [mailto:awiner@...]
                      Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 9:45 PM
                      To: Janet Leonard
                      Cc: Kimball Garrett; Floyd Hayes; Calbirds; Alvaro Jaramillo
                      Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?



                      We've veered far off the e-mail lists here, but that assertion
                      is mathematically false. Differential survival rates of
                      genotypes would have a huge impact on the eventual proportions
                      in a rapidly expanding population, for exactly the same reason that
                      relatively small differences in per-year returns on monetary investments
                      have an enormous effect over long periods.

                      The issue is not whether pale individuals are producing enough
                      to expand rapidly; it's whether they're producing enough to
                      expand as rapidly as "standard" individuals. As with anything
                      biological, many caveats apply - is this a recessive gene, if so are there
                      heterozygote advantages, is it more or less advantageous in some
                      habitats, etc. etc. But the basic point stands: were this a
                      significantly deleterious gene, it should get blasted out of
                      the gene pool in the course of the population explosion.

                      (BTW, I think the core fallacy is "rapidly expanding" equals
                      "low natural selection". Intensity of natural selection has
                      nothing to do with overall population changes, and everything to
                      do with relative reproductive success across genotypes.)

                      -- Adam Winer



                      On 9/6/07, Janet Leonard <HYPERLINK
                      "mailto:jlleonar@..."jlleonar@...> wrote:

                      Al-

                      If a population is rapidly expanding, it must by definition be experiencing
                      relatively low natural selection because more young survive and reproduce
                      than in stable populations. Therefore, your argument about recessives not
                      being weeded out makes sense.

                      Jan Leonard

                      Half Moon Bay



                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Alvaro Jaramillo" <HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao%40coastside.net"
                      \nchucao@...>
                      To: "'Kimball Garrett'" <HYPERLINK "mailto:kgarrett%40nhm.org"
                      \nkgarrett@...>; "'Floyd Hayes'"
                      <HYPERLINK "mailto:floyd_hayes%40yahoo.com" \nfloyd_hayes@...>;
                      "'Calbirds'" <HYPERLINK "mailto:calbirds%40yahoogroups.com" \n
                      calbirds@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:28 PM
                      Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?

                      Kimball et al.

                      Believe it or not I was thinking of sending a note along the same lines
                      as what you wrote to ID frontiers, but now that the conversation is on here,
                      I will add a few bits. I have been seeing a small proportion of the Half
                      Moon Bay, San Mateo County population of Euro Collared-Dove which are pale,
                      "risoria-like" but definitely E. Collared-Doves. I too have wondered about
                      the significance of this, and have thought that it is not due to local
                      releases, or hybridization but an aspect of the founder population in North
                      America. I guess that the slightly different spin I would put on it is that
                      the key elements may be the amazing expansion of the population and the
                      short time it has taken for this to happen. Assuming that the founder
                      population (Bahamas was it?) had pale Ringed T-D like birds, these genes
                      will remain in the growing population in the same proportion as they started
                      unless there is direct selection against them. My guess is that there is
                      selection against them, but given the huge and quick expansion there just
                      hasn't been that much time for this genotype to get weeded out from the
                      general population. I am no population geneticist, but I wonder also if in
                      an exponentially growing population which seems to have no immediate
                      limitation in its population growth, if selection against a plumage type
                      such as this is somehow lessened? So if we started with a founder population
                      of let's say 5% pale birds, in such a short time (twenty years or so?) the
                      expanding population may still have several percent pale birds involved. I
                      would predict that as populations eventually stabilize, and higher levels of
                      competition set in as the Collared-Dove niche is "filled" these pale birds
                      will be weeded out by natural selection (differential predation on them,
                      aggression from other doves, perhaps lesser ability to forage effectively
                      due to this.etc). Like I said, I am no population geneticist, and if there
                      is one out there who can say - Al you are full of it, I would be happy to
                      learn from someone "in the know."

                      Also, some additional information about Caribbean populations
                      which I have been able to see while on tour. In the Lesser Antilles, the
                      distribution of the dove is still expanding, and it appears that there may
                      have been more than the one introduction to the Bahamas. For example the
                      French Islands (Martinique and Guadeloupe) have huge populations of the
                      dove, while the island in-between (Dominica) has very few. The French
                      Islands are much more built up than Dominica, and this surely has an effect,
                      but given that the French Islands have various other introduced species,
                      while Dominica does not, suggests that the dove was introduced to the French
                      Islands. Puerto Rico also has a population which may have been an
                      independent introduction from the Bahamas birds. The birds in Puerto Rico
                      are very mixed looking, patchy birds, pale birds etc. The general thought is
                      that they are mixed populations between Euro Collared-Dove and "Ringed
                      Turtle-Dove" however on the west side of the island where the population was
                      pretty big, vocally birds were Eurasian Collared-Doves, although their
                      appearance was variable. In Guadeloupe and Martinique, birds were more
                      standard looking although pale birds were regularly seen.

                      Regards

                      Alvaro

                      Alvaro Jaramillo

                      HYPERLINK "mailto:HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao%40coastside.net"
                      \nchucao@..."HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao%40coastside.net" \n
                      chucao@...

                      Half Moon Bay, California

                      Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

                      HYPERLINK "HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"
                      \nhttp://www.fieldguides.com"HYPERLINK
                      "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

                      _____

                      From: HYPERLINK "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com"
                      \nCALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:HYPERLINK
                      "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com" \n CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                      Of Kimball Garrett
                      Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 2:13 PM
                      To: Floyd Hayes; Calbirds
                      Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?

                      Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.):

                      Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. "Ringed Turtle-Dove" is
                      indeed merely the domesticated form of African Collared-Dove,
                      Streptopelia roseogrisea. There is (fortunately) a trend away from
                      providing separate binomials for domesticated forms, though it is of
                      interest that Linnaeus coined the binomial Streptopelia risoria (for
                      "Ringed Turtle-Dove" or "Barbary Dove") before Streptopelia roseogrisea
                      was named in 1857. I do have another, related, comment.

                      >From my experience and that of many others with whom I've discussed
                      this, occasional pale morphs are often seen with established Eurasian
                      Collared-Dove (ECD) populations. In most cases these birds don't
                      exactly match "classic" creamy-colored, small "Ringed Turtle-Doves"
                      (RTDs), but they certainly differ from the expected phenotype of ECD.
                      Years ago, one popular explanation was that these were RTDs that
                      probably escaped from the same dove breeders who lost the ECDs (along,
                      no doubt, with hybrids), thus supporting the notion that all of the
                      various populations in California and neighboring regions resulted from
                      local releases. Now, of course, it is clear that most of our ECD
                      populations are part of the massive and rapid continent-wide expansion
                      of this species, and that "local origin" can only be proved in a few
                      cases.

                      My suspicion, without the benefit of specimens or DNA sequences to back
                      it up, is that a pale phenotype of ECD turns up occasionally in most
                      populations, perhaps maintained as a recessive trait in the expanding
                      populations. Perhaps this phenotype has its genetic origins in past
                      captive breeding shenanigans (e.g. selective breeding for pale
                      coloration, or cross-breeding with RTDs?). Or, perhaps, RTD genes were
                      picked up through interbreeding as ECDs spread across North America
                      (occasionally coming onto contact with escaped RTDs). But most likely
                      it is just a rare morph of ECD. Quoting from Derek Goodwin's Pigeons and
                      Doves of the World (Cornell Univ. Press, 1983): "Besides variation
                      within the normal range [of Eurasian Collared-Dove]-, very pale
                      individuals and others that are creamy buff like 'S. risoria' [RTD}
                      occur quite frequently in Britain. There is no reason to suppose the
                      mutants are of hybrid origin." Mention of pale creamy buff variants is
                      also made in the BNA account by Christina Romagosa, and such morphs were
                      noted by Bill Smith in some of the earliest populations established in
                      the U. S.

                      In any case, my point is that I'm not sure we should necessarily call
                      these pale birds RTDs (or, more properly, domesticated forms of African
                      Collared-Doves)-, absent a more thorough study. It seems likely that many
                      or most of them are ECDs. If you encounter a pale bird, pay close
                      attention to voice; the relatively clear 3-note cooing ("coo-COO-coo"-)
                      of ECD is utterly different from the guttural "koo-kRRRRooo" of RTDs.

                      Kimball

                      Kimball L. Garrett
                      Ornithology Collections Manager
                      Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
                      900 Exposition Blvd.
                      Los Angeles CA 90007
                      (213) 763-3368
                      (213) 746-2999 FAX
                      HYPERLINK "mailto:HYPERLINK "mailto:kgarrett%25" \nkgarrett%HYPERLINK
                      "http://40nhm.org" \n 40nhm.org"kgarrett@nhm.-org

                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: HYPERLINK
                      "mailto:HYPERLINK "mailto:CALBIRDS%25" \nCALBIRDS%HYPERLINK
                      "http://40yahoogroups.com"40yahoogroups.com"HYPERLINK
                      "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroup-s.com" \n CALBIRDS@...
                      [mailto:HYPERLINK "mailto:HYPERLINK" \nHYPERLINK
                      "mailto:HYPERLINK "mailto:CALBIRDS%25" \nCALBIRDS%HYPERLINK
                      "http://40yahoogroups.com"40yahoogroups.com"HYPERLINK
                      "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroup-s.com" \n CALBIRDS@...] On
                      Behalf
                      > Of Floyd Hayes
                      > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:40 AM
                      > To: Calbirds
                      > Subject: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                      >
                      > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
                      > Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
                      > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
                      > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
                      > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
                      > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
                      > implications would be for human assistance in the
                      > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
                      >
                      > Floyd Hayes
                      > Hidden Valley Lake, CA

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                      Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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                      3:18 PM


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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Janet Leonard
                      Adam, Al et al. Relative reproductive success is a measure of natural selection; i.e. evolution through natural selection is measured as differential
                      Message 10 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Adam, Al et al.

                        Relative reproductive success is a measure of natural selection; i.e. evolution through natural selection is measured as differential reproductive success (which includes likelihood of surviving to reproduce) of genotypes. That is, a genotype that produces more offspring is more fit (lower natural selection) than one that produces less. For the effects of expanding population size on evolution from a population genetics viewpoint see Kimura, M. 1995 PNAS and commentary by Damgaard 1996 in TREE. Certainly the presence of pale birds is derived from the founding population but if there were strong natural selection, they would quickly become rare. If it is a recessive trait they would never become extinct but they could quickly become rare.


                        Jan Leonard



                        Half Moon Bay

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Adam Winer
                        To: Janet Leonard
                        Cc: Kimball Garrett ; Floyd Hayes ; Calbirds ; Alvaro Jaramillo
                        Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 9:44 PM
                        Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?


                        We've veered far off the e-mail lists here, but that assertion
                        is mathematically false. Differential survival rates of
                        genotypes would have a huge impact on the eventual proportions
                        in a rapidly expanding population, for exactly the same reason that
                        relatively small differences in per-year returns on monetary investments
                        have an enormous effect over long periods.

                        The issue is not whether pale individuals are producing enough
                        to expand rapidly; it's whether they're producing enough to
                        expand as rapidly as "standard" individuals. As with anything
                        biological, many caveats apply - is this a recessive gene, if so are there
                        heterozygote advantages, is it more or less advantageous in some
                        habitats, etc. etc. But the basic point stands: were this a
                        significantly deleterious gene, it should get blasted out of
                        the gene pool in the course of the population explosion.

                        (BTW, I think the core fallacy is "rapidly expanding" equals
                        "low natural selection". Intensity of natural selection has
                        nothing to do with overall population changes, and everything to
                        do with relative reproductive success across genotypes.)

                        -- Adam Winer



                        On 9/6/07, Janet Leonard <jlleonar@...> wrote:
                        Al-

                        If a population is rapidly expanding, it must by definition be experiencing
                        relatively low natural selection because more young survive and reproduce
                        than in stable populations. Therefore, your argument about recessives not
                        being weeded out makes sense.

                        Jan Leonard

                        Half Moon Bay



                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Alvaro Jaramillo" <chucao@...>
                        To: "'Kimball Garrett'" <kgarrett@...>; "'Floyd Hayes'"
                        <floyd_hayes@...>; "'Calbirds'" < calbirds@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:28 PM
                        Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?

                        Kimball et al.

                        Believe it or not I was thinking of sending a note along the same lines
                        as what you wrote to ID frontiers, but now that the conversation is on here,
                        I will add a few bits. I have been seeing a small proportion of the Half
                        Moon Bay, San Mateo County population of Euro Collared-Dove which are pale,
                        "risoria-like" but definitely E. Collared-Doves. I too have wondered about
                        the significance of this, and have thought that it is not due to local
                        releases, or hybridization but an aspect of the founder population in North
                        America. I guess that the slightly different spin I would put on it is that
                        the key elements may be the amazing expansion of the population and the
                        short time it has taken for this to happen. Assuming that the founder
                        population (Bahamas was it?) had pale Ringed T-D like birds, these genes
                        will remain in the growing population in the same proportion as they started
                        unless there is direct selection against them. My guess is that there is
                        selection against them, but given the huge and quick expansion there just
                        hasn't been that much time for this genotype to get weeded out from the
                        general population. I am no population geneticist, but I wonder also if in
                        an exponentially growing population which seems to have no immediate
                        limitation in its population growth, if selection against a plumage type
                        such as this is somehow lessened? So if we started with a founder population
                        of let's say 5% pale birds, in such a short time (twenty years or so?) the
                        expanding population may still have several percent pale birds involved. I
                        would predict that as populations eventually stabilize, and higher levels of
                        competition set in as the Collared-Dove niche is "filled" these pale birds
                        will be weeded out by natural selection (differential predation on them,
                        aggression from other doves, perhaps lesser ability to forage effectively
                        due to this.etc). Like I said, I am no population geneticist, and if there
                        is one out there who can say - Al you are full of it, I would be happy to
                        learn from someone "in the know."

                        Also, some additional information about Caribbean populations
                        which I have been able to see while on tour. In the Lesser Antilles, the
                        distribution of the dove is still expanding, and it appears that there may
                        have been more than the one introduction to the Bahamas. For example the
                        French Islands (Martinique and Guadeloupe) have huge populations of the
                        dove, while the island in-between (Dominica) has very few. The French
                        Islands are much more built up than Dominica, and this surely has an effect,
                        but given that the French Islands have various other introduced species,
                        while Dominica does not, suggests that the dove was introduced to the French
                        Islands. Puerto Rico also has a population which may have been an
                        independent introduction from the Bahamas birds. The birds in Puerto Rico
                        are very mixed looking, patchy birds, pale birds etc. The general thought is
                        that they are mixed populations between Euro Collared-Dove and "Ringed
                        Turtle-Dove" however on the west side of the island where the population was
                        pretty big, vocally birds were Eurasian Collared-Doves, although their
                        appearance was variable. In Guadeloupe and Martinique, birds were more
                        standard looking although pale birds were regularly seen.

                        Regards

                        Alvaro

                        Alvaro Jaramillo

                        HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@..." chucao@...

                        Half Moon Bay, California

                        Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

                        HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

                        _____

                        From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                        Of Kimball Garrett
                        Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 2:13 PM
                        To: Floyd Hayes; Calbirds
                        Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?

                        Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.):

                        Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. "Ringed Turtle-Dove" is
                        indeed merely the domesticated form of African Collared-Dove,
                        Streptopelia roseogrisea. There is (fortunately) a trend away from
                        providing separate binomials for domesticated forms, though it is of
                        interest that Linnaeus coined the binomial Streptopelia risoria (for
                        "Ringed Turtle-Dove" or "Barbary Dove") before Streptopelia roseogrisea
                        was named in 1857. I do have another, related, comment.

                        >From my experience and that of many others with whom I've discussed
                        this, occasional pale morphs are often seen with established Eurasian
                        Collared-Dove (ECD) populations. In most cases these birds don't
                        exactly match "classic" creamy-colored, small "Ringed Turtle-Doves"
                        (RTDs), but they certainly differ from the expected phenotype of ECD.
                        Years ago, one popular explanation was that these were RTDs that
                        probably escaped from the same dove breeders who lost the ECDs (along,
                        no doubt, with hybrids), thus supporting the notion that all of the
                        various populations in California and neighboring regions resulted from
                        local releases. Now, of course, it is clear that most of our ECD
                        populations are part of the massive and rapid continent-wide expansion
                        of this species, and that "local origin" can only be proved in a few
                        cases.

                        My suspicion, without the benefit of specimens or DNA sequences to back
                        it up, is that a pale phenotype of ECD turns up occasionally in most
                        populations, perhaps maintained as a recessive trait in the expanding
                        populations. Perhaps this phenotype has its genetic origins in past
                        captive breeding shenanigans (e.g. selective breeding for pale
                        coloration, or cross-breeding with RTDs?). Or, perhaps, RTD genes were
                        picked up through interbreeding as ECDs spread across North America
                        (occasionally coming onto contact with escaped RTDs). But most likely
                        it is just a rare morph of ECD. Quoting from Derek Goodwin's Pigeons and
                        Doves of the World (Cornell Univ. Press, 1983): "Besides variation
                        within the normal range [of Eurasian Collared-Dove]-, very pale
                        individuals and others that are creamy buff like 'S. risoria' [RTD}
                        occur quite frequently in Britain. There is no reason to suppose the
                        mutants are of hybrid origin." Mention of pale creamy buff variants is
                        also made in the BNA account by Christina Romagosa, and such morphs were
                        noted by Bill Smith in some of the earliest populations established in
                        the U. S.

                        In any case, my point is that I'm not sure we should necessarily call
                        these pale birds RTDs (or, more properly, domesticated forms of African
                        Collared-Doves)-, absent a more thorough study. It seems likely that many
                        or most of them are ECDs. If you encounter a pale bird, pay close
                        attention to voice; the relatively clear 3-note cooing ("coo-COO-coo"-)
                        of ECD is utterly different from the guttural "koo-kRRRRooo" of RTDs.

                        Kimball

                        Kimball L. Garrett
                        Ornithology Collections Manager
                        Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
                        900 Exposition Blvd.
                        Los Angeles CA 90007
                        (213) 763-3368
                        (213) 746-2999 FAX
                        HYPERLINK "mailto:kgarrett% 40nhm.org"kgarrett@nhm.-org

                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: HYPERLINK
                        "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com" CALBIRDS@...
                        [mailto:HYPERLINK
                        "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com" CALBIRDS@...] On
                        Behalf
                        > Of Floyd Hayes
                        > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:40 AM
                        > To: Calbirds
                        > Subject: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                        >
                        > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
                        > Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
                        > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
                        > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
                        > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
                        > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
                        > implications would be for human assistance in the
                        > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
                        >
                        > Floyd Hayes
                        > Hidden Valley Lake, CA

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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Rusty Scalf
                        ... It seems that these Doves have leap-frogged the San Francisco Basin. I was in Lee Vining recently and would estimate the Collared/Mourning ratio at about 3
                        Message 11 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          > By the way, here in Half Moon Bay, San Mateo County the Collared Dove

                          > is now the second most common dove in town after Mourning. There are
                          > more of them than Rock Pigeon

                          It seems that these Doves have leap-frogged the San Francisco Basin.

                          I was in Lee Vining recently and would estimate the Collared/Mourning
                          ratio at about 3 to 1. And they're certainly all over the San Joaquin
                          Valley.

                          If they're that common on the San Mateo Coast, I wonder why this is not
                          the case in Oakland and Berkeley. They're about, but nothing like what
                          you describe.

                          Rusty Scalf
                        • dsuddjian@aol.com
                          In a message dated 9/6/2007 11:57:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rfs_berkeley@yahoo.com writes: If they re that common on the San Mateo Coast, I wonder why this
                          Message 12 of 16 , Sep 7, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            In a message dated 9/6/2007 11:57:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                            rfs_berkeley@... writes:

                            If they're that common on the San Mateo Coast, I wonder why this is not
                            the case in Oakland and Berkeley. They're about, but nothing like what
                            you describe.

                            Maybe it is a matter of scale. In Santa Cruz County we are seeing the pattern
                            of expanding nuclei that Al mentions in the cities of Santa Cruz and
                            Watsonville, but while the species is becoming increasingly widespread here it remains
                            patchy and much more sporadic in other parts of the county. There are still
                            significant areas of likely habitat where one would have a hard time finding
                            ECD on order.

                            Interestingly, ECD was present in a nucleus area in western Santa Cruz for
                            several years before the regional invasion hit central CA a few years ago. It
                            remained quite local in that nucleus for years and only exhibited the strong
                            expanding pattern within western Santa Cruz coincident with the species'
                            broadscale arrival in central CA two to three years ago. But in Watsonville there
                            apparently were no nuclei before the regional invasion reached SCZ, but the
                            expanding nuclei pattern then developed there. My impression is that the local
                            pattern of nuclear explosion (if you'll pardon me) is fueled by the ongoing
                            broadscale influx.

                            David Suddjian
                            Capitola, CA



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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Floyd Hayes
                            I don t doubt that there are pale Eurasian Collared-Doves resembling African Collared-Doves, but I was familiar with both of these species from the Caribbean
                            Message 13 of 16 , Sep 7, 2007
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                              I don't doubt that there are pale Eurasian
                              Collared-Doves resembling African Collared-Doves, but
                              I was familiar with both of these species from the
                              Caribbean and I'm quite confident both are present in
                              the Napa Valley. On 2 January I saw about five of each
                              (the pale ones aren't rare), with the Eurasian
                              Collared-Doves giving three-noted calls and the
                              presumed African Collared-Doves giving two-noted
                              calls. I just posted photos at:

                              http://www.geocities.com/floyd_hayes/collared-doves.html

                              Incidentally, in contrast with the North American
                              mainland, Eurasian Collared-Doves are spreading very
                              slowly in the Caribbean. Despite an initial release in
                              the northern Bahamas (New Providence in 1974) it is
                              still relatively rare in the central and southern
                              Bahamas (my brother and I photographed San Salvador's
                              2nd in 2004). Unknown to most people, the birds were
                              definitely released (well documented) on Guadeloupe in
                              1976 (Barre et al., Pitirre 9(2):2-4, 1996), from
                              which they slowly spread northward, only recently
                              arriving in the Virgin Islands (one record, a bird I
                              photographed in 2003), and they also spread southward,
                              arriving in Dominica in 1987 and Martinique in 1994. I
                              don't think they have been recorded yet on any islands
                              to the south of Martinique except Trinidad, far to the
                              south, where I photographed one (origin unknown) in
                              2000.

                              Floyd Hayes
                              Hidden Valley Lake, CA



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                            • Kimball Garrett
                              [Note: I m not the listowner, but it s my opinion that Streptopelia doves are part of the California avifauna, and therefore fair game for discussion on this
                              Message 14 of 16 , Sep 7, 2007
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                                [Note: I'm not the listowner, but it's my opinion that Streptopelia
                                doves are part of the California avifauna, and therefore fair game for
                                discussion on this list serve; I agree that discussions of population
                                genetics may not qualify, however.]

                                Two quick points:

                                (1) Floyd surely is seeing African Collared-Doves (= "Barbary" or
                                "Ringed Turtle-" Doves), and I didn't mean to imply in my previous
                                messages that pale variant ECDs were the only possible explanation for
                                what he was seeing. Domestic African Collared-Doves (ACDs or RTDs)
                                escape very frequently, and of course central Los Angeles used to have a
                                population that was even "ABA Countable" in the 1960s and 1970s (and had
                                been established by the 1940s or earlier). Various morphs of ACDs are
                                still released at the sorts of celebrations and public events that
                                require liberation of large numbers of totally discombobulated domestic
                                birds, and individuals escape all the time.

                                (2) Regarding the discussion of ECDs being largely absent from most
                                large urban areas such as the main San Francisco Bay metropolis, I think
                                this is partly a matter of habitat -- this species generally doesn't do
                                well in heavily urban areas. ECDs are absent or rare (tiny, very
                                localized populations) in most of the greater Los Angeles urban area as
                                well. This species depends almost entirely on grain -- in agricultural
                                areas, weedy rural areas, industrial areas with grain mills, railroad
                                right-of-ways in grain-producing regions, etc. Just about its only
                                option in highly urbanized areas is commercial bird seed at feeders, and
                                apparently there aren't enough feeders to sustain ECD populations in
                                most highly urbanized areas.

                                I'd much rather be out looking at Arctic Warblers than blabbing on about
                                feral doves....

                                Kimball

                                Kimball L. Garrett
                                Ornithology Collections Manager
                                Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
                                900 Exposition Blvd.
                                Los Angeles CA 90007
                                (213) 763-3368
                                (213) 746-2999 FAX
                                kgarrett@...


                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On
                                Behalf
                                > Of Floyd Hayes
                                > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 10:59 AM
                                > To: Calbirds
                                > Subject: [CALBIRDS] RE: How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                                >
                                > I don't doubt that there are pale Eurasian
                                > Collared-Doves resembling African Collared-Doves, but
                                > I was familiar with both of these species from the
                                > Caribbean and I'm quite confident both are present in
                                > the Napa Valley.
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