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Re: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?

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  • Steve Hampton
    Floyd, I think most consider the African Collared-Dove and the Ringed Turtle-Dove to be distinct species, so really there are three similar species we are
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
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      Floyd,

      I think most consider the African Collared-Dove and the Ringed Turtle-Dove to be distinct species, so really there are three similar species we are talking about:

      Ringed Turtle-Dove Streptopelia risoria
      African Collared-Dove Streptopelia roseogrisea
      Eurasian Collared-Dove Streptopelia decaocto

      Decaocto is now widespread in SE Calif and spreading NW (from the nationwide expansion), and also has some established populations along the coast (from previous releases). It does associate with and hybridize with risoria on occasion, but in general risoria is rare in the wild, probably limited to escapees who seem to find decaocto when lonely. I haven't heard of roseogrisea in California.

      good birding,



      Steve Hampton
      ________________
      Resource Economist
      Office of Spill Prevention and Response
      California Dept of Fish and Game
      PO Box 944209
      Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
      -----------------------------------
      (916) 323-4724 phone
      (916) 324-8829 fax
      >>> Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes@...> 09/05/07 10:39 AM >>>
      How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
      Ringed Turtle-Dove)? Multiple African Collared-Doves
      and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
      time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
      Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
      alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
      implications would be for human assistance in the
      spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.

      Floyd Hayes
      Hidden Valley Lake, CA



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    • Bruce Deuel
      The A.O.U. (47th supplement to the checklist, 2006) has decreed that risoria IS roseogrisea. Cheers, Bruce Deuel Redding 33 ... Floyd, I think most consider
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
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        The A.O.U. (47th supplement to the checklist, 2006) has decreed that risoria IS roseogrisea.

        Cheers,
        Bruce Deuel
        Redding
        33

        >>> "Steve Hampton" <shampton@...> 9/6/2007 12:52 PM >>>
        Floyd,

        I think most consider the African Collared-Dove and the Ringed Turtle-Dove to be distinct species, so really there are three similar species we are talking about:

        Ringed Turtle-Dove Streptopelia risoria
        African Collared-Dove Streptopelia roseogrisea
        Eurasian Collared-Dove Streptopelia decaocto

        Decaocto is now widespread in SE Calif and spreading NW (from the nationwide expansion), and also has some established populations along the coast (from previous releases). It does associate with and hybridize with risoria on occasion, but in general risoria is rare in the wild, probably limited to escapees who seem to find decaocto when lonely. I haven't heard of roseogrisea in California.

        good birding,



        Steve Hampton
        ________________
        Resource Economist
        Office of Spill Prevention and Response
        California Dept of Fish and Game
        PO Box 944209
        Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
        -----------------------------------
        (916) 323-4724 phone
        (916) 324-8829 fax
        >>> Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes@...> 09/05/07 10:39 AM >>>
        How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
        Ringed Turtle-Dove)? Multiple African Collared-Doves
        and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
        time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
        Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
        alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
        implications would be for human assistance in the
        spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.

        Floyd Hayes
        Hidden Valley Lake, CA



        ____________________________________________________________________________________
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      • Alvaro Jaramillo
        Steve It is confusing, but risoria (Ringed Turtle-Dove) is considered a domesticated form or roseogrisea (African Collared-Dove). So it is akin to saying
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
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          Steve



          It is confusing, but risoria (Ringed Turtle-Dove) is considered a
          domesticated form or roseogrisea (African Collared-Dove). So it is akin to
          saying Ringed Turtle-Dove is to African Collared-Dove as Canis familiaris
          (Dog) is to Canis lupus (Wolf). It is strange that some domesticated animals
          have a species designation to begin with, but we do have them. I wonder if
          in time we will also have Homo sapiens urbanus, for �city folk.�



          Cheers



          Al



          Alvaro Jaramillo

          HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@..."chucao@...

          Half Moon Bay, California



          Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

          HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

          _____

          From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of Steve Hampton
          Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 12:53 PM
          To: calbirds@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?



          Floyd,

          I think most consider the African Collared-Dove and the Ringed Turtle-Dove
          to be distinct species, so really there are three similar species we are
          talking about:

          Ringed Turtle-Dove Streptopelia risoria
          African Collared-Dove Streptopelia roseogrisea
          Eurasian Collared-Dove Streptopelia decaocto

          Decaocto is now widespread in SE Calif and spreading NW (from the nationwide
          expansion), and also has some established populations along the coast (from
          previous releases). It does associate with and hybridize with risoria on
          occasion, but in general risoria is rare in the wild, probably limited to
          escapees who seem to find decaocto when lonely. I haven't heard of
          roseogrisea in California.

          good birding,

          Steve Hampton
          ____________-____
          Resource Economist
          Office of Spill Prevention and Response
          California Dept of Fish and Game
          PO Box 944209
          Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
          --------------------------------------
          (916) 323-4724 phone
          (916) 324-8829 fax
          >>> Floyd Hayes <HYPERLINK
          "mailto:floyd_hayes%40yahoo.com"floyd_hayes@...> 09/05/07 10:39 AM
          >>>
          How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
          Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
          and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
          time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
          Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
          alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
          implications would be for human assistance in the
          spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.

          Floyd Hayes
          Hidden Valley Lake, CA

          ____________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_
          Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car
          Finder tool.
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          "http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/"http://autos.-yahoo.com/-carfinder/

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        • Kimball Garrett
          Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.): Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. Ringed Turtle-Dove is indeed merely the domesticated form of
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
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            Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.):

            Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. "Ringed Turtle-Dove" is
            indeed merely the domesticated form of African Collared-Dove,
            Streptopelia roseogrisea. There is (fortunately) a trend away from
            providing separate binomials for domesticated forms, though it is of
            interest that Linnaeus coined the binomial Streptopelia risoria (for
            "Ringed Turtle-Dove" or "Barbary Dove") before Streptopelia roseogrisea
            was named in 1857. I do have another, related, comment.

            From my experience and that of many others with whom I've discussed
            this, occasional pale morphs are often seen with established Eurasian
            Collared-Dove (ECD) populations. In most cases these birds don't
            exactly match "classic" creamy-colored, small "Ringed Turtle-Doves"
            (RTDs), but they certainly differ from the expected phenotype of ECD.
            Years ago, one popular explanation was that these were RTDs that
            probably escaped from the same dove breeders who lost the ECDs (along,
            no doubt, with hybrids), thus supporting the notion that all of the
            various populations in California and neighboring regions resulted from
            local releases. Now, of course, it is clear that most of our ECD
            populations are part of the massive and rapid continent-wide expansion
            of this species, and that "local origin" can only be proved in a few
            cases.

            My suspicion, without the benefit of specimens or DNA sequences to back
            it up, is that a pale phenotype of ECD turns up occasionally in most
            populations, perhaps maintained as a recessive trait in the expanding
            populations. Perhaps this phenotype has its genetic origins in past
            captive breeding shenanigans (e.g. selective breeding for pale
            coloration, or cross-breeding with RTDs?). Or, perhaps, RTD genes were
            picked up through interbreeding as ECDs spread across North America
            (occasionally coming onto contact with escaped RTDs). But most likely
            it is just a rare morph of ECD. Quoting from Derek Goodwin's Pigeons and
            Doves of the World (Cornell Univ. Press, 1983): "Besides variation
            within the normal range [of Eurasian Collared-Dove], very pale
            individuals and others that are creamy buff like 'S. risoria' [RTD}
            occur quite frequently in Britain. There is no reason to suppose the
            mutants are of hybrid origin." Mention of pale creamy buff variants is
            also made in the BNA account by Christina Romagosa, and such morphs were
            noted by Bill Smith in some of the earliest populations established in
            the U. S.

            In any case, my point is that I'm not sure we should necessarily call
            these pale birds RTDs (or, more properly, domesticated forms of African
            Collared-Doves), absent a more thorough study. It seems likely that many
            or most of them are ECDs. If you encounter a pale bird, pay close
            attention to voice; the relatively clear 3-note cooing ("coo-COO-coo")
            of ECD is utterly different from the guttural "koo-kRRRRooo" of RTDs.

            Kimball

            Kimball L. Garrett
            Ornithology Collections Manager
            Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
            900 Exposition Blvd.
            Los Angeles CA 90007
            (213) 763-3368
            (213) 746-2999 FAX
            kgarrett@...

            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf
            > Of Floyd Hayes
            > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:40 AM
            > To: Calbirds
            > Subject: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
            >
            > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
            > Ringed Turtle-Dove)? Multiple African Collared-Doves
            > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
            > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
            > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
            > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
            > implications would be for human assistance in the
            > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
            >
            > Floyd Hayes
            > Hidden Valley Lake, CA
          • Janet Leonard
            FYI- The species designation for domestic animals, probably, I think, goes back to Linnaeus who was not thinking in evolutionary terms, merely sorting things
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
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              FYI-

              The species designation for domestic animals, probably, I think, goes back
              to Linnaeus who was not thinking in evolutionary terms, merely sorting
              things into pigeonholes. These designations
              should probably get cleared up and abolished but they have a certain
              practical utility; e.g. studies of Canis lupus in the Western US are quite
              different from what would be the case if domestic dogs were included. Also,
              there is a tendency for splitting to persist for higher vertebrates even
              when we know that there are no reproductive barriers. A bit off-message for
              this group but maybe of general interest.


              Jan Leonard

              Half Moon Bay


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Alvaro Jaramillo" <chucao@...>
              To: "'Steve Hampton'" <shampton@...>; <calbirds@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 1:37 PM
              Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?


              Steve



              It is confusing, but risoria (Ringed Turtle-Dove) is considered a
              domesticated form or roseogrisea (African Collared-Dove). So it is akin to
              saying Ringed Turtle-Dove is to African Collared-Dove as Canis familiaris
              (Dog) is to Canis lupus (Wolf). It is strange that some domesticated animals
              have a species designation to begin with, but we do have them. I wonder if
              in time we will also have Homo sapiens urbanus, for "city folk."



              Cheers



              Al



              Alvaro Jaramillo

              HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@..."chucao@...

              Half Moon Bay, California



              Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

              HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

              _____

              From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of Steve Hampton
              Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 12:53 PM
              To: calbirds@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?



              Floyd,

              I think most consider the African Collared-Dove and the Ringed Turtle-Dove
              to be distinct species, so really there are three similar species we are
              talking about:

              Ringed Turtle-Dove Streptopelia risoria
              African Collared-Dove Streptopelia roseogrisea
              Eurasian Collared-Dove Streptopelia decaocto

              Decaocto is now widespread in SE Calif and spreading NW (from the nationwide
              expansion), and also has some established populations along the coast (from
              previous releases). It does associate with and hybridize with risoria on
              occasion, but in general risoria is rare in the wild, probably limited to
              escapees who seem to find decaocto when lonely. I haven't heard of
              roseogrisea in California.

              good birding,

              Steve Hampton
              ____________-____
              Resource Economist
              Office of Spill Prevention and Response
              California Dept of Fish and Game
              PO Box 944209
              Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
              --------------------------------------
              (916) 323-4724 phone
              (916) 324-8829 fax
              >>> Floyd Hayes <HYPERLINK
              "mailto:floyd_hayes%40yahoo.com"floyd_hayes@...> 09/05/07 10:39 AM
              >>>
              How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
              Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
              and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
              time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
              Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
              alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
              implications would be for human assistance in the
              spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.

              Floyd Hayes
              Hidden Valley Lake, CA

              ____________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_
              Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car
              Finder tool.
              HYPERLINK
              "http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/"http://autos.-yahoo.com/-carfinder/

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            • Alvaro Jaramillo
              Kimball et al. Believe it or not I was thinking of sending a note along the same lines as what you wrote to ID frontiers, but now that the conversation is on
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
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                Kimball et al.



                Believe it or not I was thinking of sending a note along the same lines
                as what you wrote to ID frontiers, but now that the conversation is on here,
                I will add a few bits. I have been seeing a small proportion of the Half
                Moon Bay, San Mateo County population of Euro Collared-Dove which are pale,
                �risoria-like� but definitely E. Collared-Doves. I too have wondered about
                the significance of this, and have thought that it is not due to local
                releases, or hybridization but an aspect of the founder population in North
                America. I guess that the slightly different spin I would put on it is that
                the key elements may be the amazing expansion of the population and the
                short time it has taken for this to happen. Assuming that the founder
                population (Bahamas was it?) had pale Ringed T-D like birds, these genes
                will remain in the growing population in the same proportion as they started
                unless there is direct selection against them. My guess is that there is
                selection against them, but given the huge and quick expansion there just
                hasn�t been that much time for this genotype to get weeded out from the
                general population. I am no population geneticist, but I wonder also if in
                an exponentially growing population which seems to have no immediate
                limitation in its population growth, if selection against a plumage type
                such as this is somehow lessened? So if we started with a founder population
                of let�s say 5% pale birds, in such a short time (twenty years or so?) the
                expanding population may still have several percent pale birds involved. I
                would predict that as populations eventually stabilize, and higher levels of
                competition set in as the Collared-Dove niche is �filled� these pale birds
                will be weeded out by natural selection (differential predation on them,
                aggression from other doves, perhaps lesser ability to forage effectively
                due to this�etc). Like I said, I am no population geneticist, and if there
                is one out there who can say � Al you are full of it, I would be happy to
                learn from someone �in the know.�

                Also, some additional information about Caribbean populations
                which I have been able to see while on tour. In the Lesser Antilles, the
                distribution of the dove is still expanding, and it appears that there may
                have been more than the one introduction to the Bahamas. For example the
                French Islands (Martinique and Guadeloupe) have huge populations of the
                dove, while the island in-between (Dominica) has very few. The French
                Islands are much more built up than Dominica, and this surely has an effect,
                but given that the French Islands have various other introduced species,
                while Dominica does not, suggests that the dove was introduced to the French
                Islands. Puerto Rico also has a population which may have been an
                independent introduction from the Bahamas birds. The birds in Puerto Rico
                are very mixed looking, patchy birds, pale birds etc. The general thought is
                that they are mixed populations between Euro Collared-Dove and �Ringed
                Turtle-Dove� however on the west side of the island where the population was
                pretty big, vocally birds were Eurasian Collared-Doves, although their
                appearance was variable. In Guadeloupe and Martinique, birds were more
                standard looking although pale birds were regularly seen.



                Regards



                Alvaro



                Alvaro Jaramillo

                HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@..."chucao@...

                Half Moon Bay, California



                Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

                HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

                _____

                From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of Kimball Garrett
                Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 2:13 PM
                To: Floyd Hayes; Calbirds
                Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?



                Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.):

                Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. "Ringed Turtle-Dove" is
                indeed merely the domesticated form of African Collared-Dove,
                Streptopelia roseogrisea. There is (fortunately) a trend away from
                providing separate binomials for domesticated forms, though it is of
                interest that Linnaeus coined the binomial Streptopelia risoria (for
                "Ringed Turtle-Dove" or "Barbary Dove") before Streptopelia roseogrisea
                was named in 1857. I do have another, related, comment.

                From my experience and that of many others with whom I've discussed
                this, occasional pale morphs are often seen with established Eurasian
                Collared-Dove (ECD) populations. In most cases these birds don't
                exactly match "classic" creamy-colored, small "Ringed Turtle-Doves"
                (RTDs), but they certainly differ from the expected phenotype of ECD.
                Years ago, one popular explanation was that these were RTDs that
                probably escaped from the same dove breeders who lost the ECDs (along,
                no doubt, with hybrids), thus supporting the notion that all of the
                various populations in California and neighboring regions resulted from
                local releases. Now, of course, it is clear that most of our ECD
                populations are part of the massive and rapid continent-wide expansion
                of this species, and that "local origin" can only be proved in a few
                cases.

                My suspicion, without the benefit of specimens or DNA sequences to back
                it up, is that a pale phenotype of ECD turns up occasionally in most
                populations, perhaps maintained as a recessive trait in the expanding
                populations. Perhaps this phenotype has its genetic origins in past
                captive breeding shenanigans (e.g. selective breeding for pale
                coloration, or cross-breeding with RTDs?). Or, perhaps, RTD genes were
                picked up through interbreeding as ECDs spread across North America
                (occasionally coming onto contact with escaped RTDs). But most likely
                it is just a rare morph of ECD. Quoting from Derek Goodwin's Pigeons and
                Doves of the World (Cornell Univ. Press, 1983): "Besides variation
                within the normal range [of Eurasian Collared-Dove]-, very pale
                individuals and others that are creamy buff like 'S. risoria' [RTD}
                occur quite frequently in Britain. There is no reason to suppose the
                mutants are of hybrid origin." Mention of pale creamy buff variants is
                also made in the BNA account by Christina Romagosa, and such morphs were
                noted by Bill Smith in some of the earliest populations established in
                the U. S.

                In any case, my point is that I'm not sure we should necessarily call
                these pale birds RTDs (or, more properly, domesticated forms of African
                Collared-Doves)-, absent a more thorough study. It seems likely that many
                or most of them are ECDs. If you encounter a pale bird, pay close
                attention to voice; the relatively clear 3-note cooing ("coo-COO-coo"-)
                of ECD is utterly different from the guttural "koo-kRRRRooo" of RTDs.

                Kimball

                Kimball L. Garrett
                Ornithology Collections Manager
                Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
                900 Exposition Blvd.
                Los Angeles CA 90007
                (213) 763-3368
                (213) 746-2999 FAX
                HYPERLINK "mailto:kgarrett%40nhm.org"kgarrett@nhm.-org

                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: HYPERLINK
                "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com"CALBIRDS@...
                [mailto:HYPERLINK
                "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com"CALBIRDS@...] On
                Behalf
                > Of Floyd Hayes
                > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:40 AM
                > To: Calbirds
                > Subject: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                >
                > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
                > Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
                > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
                > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
                > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
                > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
                > implications would be for human assistance in the
                > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
                >
                > Floyd Hayes
                > Hidden Valley Lake, CA




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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Janet Leonard
                Al- If a population is rapidly expanding, it must by definition be experiencing relatively low natural selection because more young survive and reproduce than
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Al-

                  If a population is rapidly expanding, it must by definition be experiencing
                  relatively low natural selection because more young survive and reproduce
                  than in stable populations. Therefore, your argument about recessives not
                  being weeded out makes sense.


                  Jan Leonard

                  Half Moon Bay

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Alvaro Jaramillo" <chucao@...>
                  To: "'Kimball Garrett'" <kgarrett@...>; "'Floyd Hayes'"
                  <floyd_hayes@...>; "'Calbirds'" <calbirds@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:28 PM
                  Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?


                  Kimball et al.



                  Believe it or not I was thinking of sending a note along the same lines
                  as what you wrote to ID frontiers, but now that the conversation is on here,
                  I will add a few bits. I have been seeing a small proportion of the Half
                  Moon Bay, San Mateo County population of Euro Collared-Dove which are pale,
                  "risoria-like" but definitely E. Collared-Doves. I too have wondered about
                  the significance of this, and have thought that it is not due to local
                  releases, or hybridization but an aspect of the founder population in North
                  America. I guess that the slightly different spin I would put on it is that
                  the key elements may be the amazing expansion of the population and the
                  short time it has taken for this to happen. Assuming that the founder
                  population (Bahamas was it?) had pale Ringed T-D like birds, these genes
                  will remain in the growing population in the same proportion as they started
                  unless there is direct selection against them. My guess is that there is
                  selection against them, but given the huge and quick expansion there just
                  hasn't been that much time for this genotype to get weeded out from the
                  general population. I am no population geneticist, but I wonder also if in
                  an exponentially growing population which seems to have no immediate
                  limitation in its population growth, if selection against a plumage type
                  such as this is somehow lessened? So if we started with a founder population
                  of let's say 5% pale birds, in such a short time (twenty years or so?) the
                  expanding population may still have several percent pale birds involved. I
                  would predict that as populations eventually stabilize, and higher levels of
                  competition set in as the Collared-Dove niche is "filled" these pale birds
                  will be weeded out by natural selection (differential predation on them,
                  aggression from other doves, perhaps lesser ability to forage effectively
                  due to this.etc). Like I said, I am no population geneticist, and if there
                  is one out there who can say - Al you are full of it, I would be happy to
                  learn from someone "in the know."

                  Also, some additional information about Caribbean populations
                  which I have been able to see while on tour. In the Lesser Antilles, the
                  distribution of the dove is still expanding, and it appears that there may
                  have been more than the one introduction to the Bahamas. For example the
                  French Islands (Martinique and Guadeloupe) have huge populations of the
                  dove, while the island in-between (Dominica) has very few. The French
                  Islands are much more built up than Dominica, and this surely has an effect,
                  but given that the French Islands have various other introduced species,
                  while Dominica does not, suggests that the dove was introduced to the French
                  Islands. Puerto Rico also has a population which may have been an
                  independent introduction from the Bahamas birds. The birds in Puerto Rico
                  are very mixed looking, patchy birds, pale birds etc. The general thought is
                  that they are mixed populations between Euro Collared-Dove and "Ringed
                  Turtle-Dove" however on the west side of the island where the population was
                  pretty big, vocally birds were Eurasian Collared-Doves, although their
                  appearance was variable. In Guadeloupe and Martinique, birds were more
                  standard looking although pale birds were regularly seen.



                  Regards



                  Alvaro



                  Alvaro Jaramillo

                  HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@..."chucao@...

                  Half Moon Bay, California



                  Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

                  HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

                  _____

                  From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  Of Kimball Garrett
                  Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 2:13 PM
                  To: Floyd Hayes; Calbirds
                  Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?



                  Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.):

                  Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. "Ringed Turtle-Dove" is
                  indeed merely the domesticated form of African Collared-Dove,
                  Streptopelia roseogrisea. There is (fortunately) a trend away from
                  providing separate binomials for domesticated forms, though it is of
                  interest that Linnaeus coined the binomial Streptopelia risoria (for
                  "Ringed Turtle-Dove" or "Barbary Dove") before Streptopelia roseogrisea
                  was named in 1857. I do have another, related, comment.

                  >From my experience and that of many others with whom I've discussed
                  this, occasional pale morphs are often seen with established Eurasian
                  Collared-Dove (ECD) populations. In most cases these birds don't
                  exactly match "classic" creamy-colored, small "Ringed Turtle-Doves"
                  (RTDs), but they certainly differ from the expected phenotype of ECD.
                  Years ago, one popular explanation was that these were RTDs that
                  probably escaped from the same dove breeders who lost the ECDs (along,
                  no doubt, with hybrids), thus supporting the notion that all of the
                  various populations in California and neighboring regions resulted from
                  local releases. Now, of course, it is clear that most of our ECD
                  populations are part of the massive and rapid continent-wide expansion
                  of this species, and that "local origin" can only be proved in a few
                  cases.

                  My suspicion, without the benefit of specimens or DNA sequences to back
                  it up, is that a pale phenotype of ECD turns up occasionally in most
                  populations, perhaps maintained as a recessive trait in the expanding
                  populations. Perhaps this phenotype has its genetic origins in past
                  captive breeding shenanigans (e.g. selective breeding for pale
                  coloration, or cross-breeding with RTDs?). Or, perhaps, RTD genes were
                  picked up through interbreeding as ECDs spread across North America
                  (occasionally coming onto contact with escaped RTDs). But most likely
                  it is just a rare morph of ECD. Quoting from Derek Goodwin's Pigeons and
                  Doves of the World (Cornell Univ. Press, 1983): "Besides variation
                  within the normal range [of Eurasian Collared-Dove]-, very pale
                  individuals and others that are creamy buff like 'S. risoria' [RTD}
                  occur quite frequently in Britain. There is no reason to suppose the
                  mutants are of hybrid origin." Mention of pale creamy buff variants is
                  also made in the BNA account by Christina Romagosa, and such morphs were
                  noted by Bill Smith in some of the earliest populations established in
                  the U. S.

                  In any case, my point is that I'm not sure we should necessarily call
                  these pale birds RTDs (or, more properly, domesticated forms of African
                  Collared-Doves)-, absent a more thorough study. It seems likely that many
                  or most of them are ECDs. If you encounter a pale bird, pay close
                  attention to voice; the relatively clear 3-note cooing ("coo-COO-coo"-)
                  of ECD is utterly different from the guttural "koo-kRRRRooo" of RTDs.

                  Kimball

                  Kimball L. Garrett
                  Ornithology Collections Manager
                  Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
                  900 Exposition Blvd.
                  Los Angeles CA 90007
                  (213) 763-3368
                  (213) 746-2999 FAX
                  HYPERLINK "mailto:kgarrett%40nhm.org"kgarrett@nhm.-org

                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: HYPERLINK
                  "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com"CALBIRDS@...
                  [mailto:HYPERLINK
                  "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com"CALBIRDS@...] On
                  Behalf
                  > Of Floyd Hayes
                  > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:40 AM
                  > To: Calbirds
                  > Subject: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                  >
                  > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
                  > Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
                  > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
                  > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
                  > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
                  > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
                  > implications would be for human assistance in the
                  > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
                  >
                  > Floyd Hayes
                  > Hidden Valley Lake, CA




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                  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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                  3:18 PM



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                  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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                  3:18 PM



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                  3:18 PM
                • Adam Winer
                  We ve veered far off the e-mail lists here, but that assertion is mathematically false. Differential survival rates of genotypes would have a huge impact on
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    We've veered far off the e-mail lists here, but that assertion
                    is mathematically false. Differential survival rates of
                    genotypes would have a huge impact on the eventual proportions
                    in a rapidly expanding population, for exactly the same reason that
                    relatively small differences in per-year returns on monetary investments
                    have an enormous effect over long periods.

                    The issue is not whether pale individuals are producing enough
                    to expand rapidly; it's whether they're producing enough to
                    expand as rapidly as "standard" individuals. As with anything
                    biological, many caveats apply - is this a recessive gene, if so are there
                    heterozygote advantages, is it more or less advantageous in some
                    habitats, etc. etc. But the basic point stands: were this a
                    significantly deleterious gene, it should get blasted out of
                    the gene pool in the course of the population explosion.

                    (BTW, I think the core fallacy is "rapidly expanding" equals
                    "low natural selection". Intensity of natural selection has
                    nothing to do with overall population changes, and everything to
                    do with relative reproductive success across genotypes.)

                    -- Adam Winer


                    On 9/6/07, Janet Leonard <jlleonar@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Al-
                    >
                    > If a population is rapidly expanding, it must by definition be
                    > experiencing
                    > relatively low natural selection because more young survive and reproduce
                    > than in stable populations. Therefore, your argument about recessives not
                    > being weeded out makes sense.
                    >
                    > Jan Leonard
                    >
                    > Half Moon Bay
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Alvaro Jaramillo" <chucao@... <chucao%40coastside.net>>
                    > To: "'Kimball Garrett'" <kgarrett@... <kgarrett%40nhm.org>>; "'Floyd
                    > Hayes'"
                    > <floyd_hayes@... <floyd_hayes%40yahoo.com>>; "'Calbirds'" <
                    > calbirds@yahoogroups.com <calbirds%40yahoogroups.com>>
                    > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:28 PM
                    > Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                    >
                    > Kimball et al.
                    >
                    > Believe it or not I was thinking of sending a note along the same lines
                    > as what you wrote to ID frontiers, but now that the conversation is on
                    > here,
                    > I will add a few bits. I have been seeing a small proportion of the Half
                    > Moon Bay, San Mateo County population of Euro Collared-Dove which are
                    > pale,
                    > "risoria-like" but definitely E. Collared-Doves. I too have wondered about
                    > the significance of this, and have thought that it is not due to local
                    > releases, or hybridization but an aspect of the founder population in
                    > North
                    > America. I guess that the slightly different spin I would put on it is
                    > that
                    > the key elements may be the amazing expansion of the population and the
                    > short time it has taken for this to happen. Assuming that the founder
                    > population (Bahamas was it?) had pale Ringed T-D like birds, these genes
                    > will remain in the growing population in the same proportion as they
                    > started
                    > unless there is direct selection against them. My guess is that there is
                    > selection against them, but given the huge and quick expansion there just
                    > hasn't been that much time for this genotype to get weeded out from the
                    > general population. I am no population geneticist, but I wonder also if in
                    > an exponentially growing population which seems to have no immediate
                    > limitation in its population growth, if selection against a plumage type
                    > such as this is somehow lessened? So if we started with a founder
                    > population
                    > of let's say 5% pale birds, in such a short time (twenty years or so?) the
                    > expanding population may still have several percent pale birds involved. I
                    > would predict that as populations eventually stabilize, and higher levels
                    > of
                    > competition set in as the Collared-Dove niche is "filled" these pale birds
                    > will be weeded out by natural selection (differential predation on them,
                    > aggression from other doves, perhaps lesser ability to forage effectively
                    > due to this.etc). Like I said, I am no population geneticist, and if there
                    > is one out there who can say - Al you are full of it, I would be happy to
                    > learn from someone "in the know."
                    >
                    > Also, some additional information about Caribbean populations
                    > which I have been able to see while on tour. In the Lesser Antilles, the
                    > distribution of the dove is still expanding, and it appears that there may
                    > have been more than the one introduction to the Bahamas. For example the
                    > French Islands (Martinique and Guadeloupe) have huge populations of the
                    > dove, while the island in-between (Dominica) has very few. The French
                    > Islands are much more built up than Dominica, and this surely has an
                    > effect,
                    > but given that the French Islands have various other introduced species,
                    > while Dominica does not, suggests that the dove was introduced to the
                    > French
                    > Islands. Puerto Rico also has a population which may have been an
                    > independent introduction from the Bahamas birds. The birds in Puerto Rico
                    > are very mixed looking, patchy birds, pale birds etc. The general thought
                    > is
                    > that they are mixed populations between Euro Collared-Dove and "Ringed
                    > Turtle-Dove" however on the west side of the island where the population
                    > was
                    > pretty big, vocally birds were Eurasian Collared-Doves, although their
                    > appearance was variable. In Guadeloupe and Martinique, birds were more
                    > standard looking although pale birds were regularly seen.
                    >
                    > Regards
                    >
                    > Alvaro
                    >
                    > Alvaro Jaramillo
                    >
                    > HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@... <chucao%40coastside.net>"
                    > chucao@... <chucao%40coastside.net>
                    >
                    > Half Moon Bay, California
                    >
                    > Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
                    >
                    > HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    > From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com <CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                    > CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com <CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
                    > Of Kimball Garrett
                    > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 2:13 PM
                    > To: Floyd Hayes; Calbirds
                    > Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                    >
                    > Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.):
                    >
                    > Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. "Ringed Turtle-Dove" is
                    > indeed merely the domesticated form of African Collared-Dove,
                    > Streptopelia roseogrisea. There is (fortunately) a trend away from
                    > providing separate binomials for domesticated forms, though it is of
                    > interest that Linnaeus coined the binomial Streptopelia risoria (for
                    > "Ringed Turtle-Dove" or "Barbary Dove") before Streptopelia roseogrisea
                    > was named in 1857. I do have another, related, comment.
                    >
                    > >From my experience and that of many others with whom I've discussed
                    > this, occasional pale morphs are often seen with established Eurasian
                    > Collared-Dove (ECD) populations. In most cases these birds don't
                    > exactly match "classic" creamy-colored, small "Ringed Turtle-Doves"
                    > (RTDs), but they certainly differ from the expected phenotype of ECD.
                    > Years ago, one popular explanation was that these were RTDs that
                    > probably escaped from the same dove breeders who lost the ECDs (along,
                    > no doubt, with hybrids), thus supporting the notion that all of the
                    > various populations in California and neighboring regions resulted from
                    > local releases. Now, of course, it is clear that most of our ECD
                    > populations are part of the massive and rapid continent-wide expansion
                    > of this species, and that "local origin" can only be proved in a few
                    > cases.
                    >
                    > My suspicion, without the benefit of specimens or DNA sequences to back
                    > it up, is that a pale phenotype of ECD turns up occasionally in most
                    > populations, perhaps maintained as a recessive trait in the expanding
                    > populations. Perhaps this phenotype has its genetic origins in past
                    > captive breeding shenanigans (e.g. selective breeding for pale
                    > coloration, or cross-breeding with RTDs?). Or, perhaps, RTD genes were
                    > picked up through interbreeding as ECDs spread across North America
                    > (occasionally coming onto contact with escaped RTDs). But most likely
                    > it is just a rare morph of ECD. Quoting from Derek Goodwin's Pigeons and
                    > Doves of the World (Cornell Univ. Press, 1983): "Besides variation
                    > within the normal range [of Eurasian Collared-Dove]-, very pale
                    > individuals and others that are creamy buff like 'S. risoria' [RTD}
                    > occur quite frequently in Britain. There is no reason to suppose the
                    > mutants are of hybrid origin." Mention of pale creamy buff variants is
                    > also made in the BNA account by Christina Romagosa, and such morphs were
                    > noted by Bill Smith in some of the earliest populations established in
                    > the U. S.
                    >
                    > In any case, my point is that I'm not sure we should necessarily call
                    > these pale birds RTDs (or, more properly, domesticated forms of African
                    > Collared-Doves)-, absent a more thorough study. It seems likely that many
                    > or most of them are ECDs. If you encounter a pale bird, pay close
                    > attention to voice; the relatively clear 3-note cooing ("coo-COO-coo"-)
                    > of ECD is utterly different from the guttural "koo-kRRRRooo" of RTDs.
                    >
                    > Kimball
                    >
                    > Kimball L. Garrett
                    > Ornithology Collections Manager
                    > Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
                    > 900 Exposition Blvd.
                    > Los Angeles CA 90007
                    > (213) 763-3368
                    > (213) 746-2999 FAX
                    > HYPERLINK "mailto:kgarrett% <kgarrett%25>40nhm.org"kgarrett@nhm.-org
                    >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: HYPERLINK
                    > "mailto:CALBIRDS% <CALBIRDS%25>40yahoogroups.com"CALBIRDS@...<CALBIRDS%40yahoogroup-s.com>
                    > [mailto:HYPERLINK
                    > "mailto:CALBIRDS% <CALBIRDS%25>40yahoogroups.com"CALBIRDS@...<CALBIRDS%40yahoogroup-s.com>]
                    > On
                    > Behalf
                    > > Of Floyd Hayes
                    > > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:40 AM
                    > > To: Calbirds
                    > > Subject: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                    > >
                    > > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
                    > > Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
                    > > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
                    > > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
                    > > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
                    > > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
                    > > implications would be for human assistance in the
                    > > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
                    > >
                    > > Floyd Hayes
                    > > Hidden Valley Lake, CA
                    >
                    > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    > Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.8/993 - Release Date: 9/6/2007
                    > 3:18 PM
                    >
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                    > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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                    > 3:18 PM
                    >
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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Chet ogan
                    Floyd, I found breeding Eurasian Collared Dove in 2006 in Humboldt County, to my recollection they were first found at a feed and grain store in Eureka in
                    Message 9 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Floyd,
                      I found breeding Eurasian Collared Dove in 2006 in
                      Humboldt County, to my recollection they were first
                      found at a feed and grain store in Eureka in 2005. I
                      also had Eurasian Collared Dove at Cedarville, Modoc
                      Co in July 2006. I saw my first Ringed Turtle Dove in
                      Carpinteria, Ca in 2000 and Eurasian Collared Dove at
                      the same exact location in 2001.

                      Chet Ogan
                      Eureka, Humboldt Co

                      --- Steve Hampton <shampton@...> wrote:

                      > Floyd,
                      >
                      > I think most consider the African Collared-Dove and
                      > the Ringed Turtle-Dove to be distinct species, so
                      > really there are three similar species we are
                      > talking about:
                      >
                      > Ringed Turtle-Dove Streptopelia risoria
                      > African Collared-Dove Streptopelia roseogrisea
                      > Eurasian Collared-Dove Streptopelia decaocto
                      >
                      > Decaocto is now widespread in SE Calif and spreading
                      > NW (from the nationwide expansion), and also has
                      > some established populations along the coast (from
                      > previous releases). It does associate with and
                      > hybridize with risoria on occasion, but in general
                      > risoria is rare in the wild, probably limited to
                      > escapees who seem to find decaocto when lonely. I
                      > haven't heard of roseogrisea in California.
                      >
                      > good birding,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Steve Hampton
                      > ________________
                      > Resource Economist
                      > Office of Spill Prevention and Response
                      > California Dept of Fish and Game
                      > PO Box 944209
                      > Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
                      > -----------------------------------
                      > (916) 323-4724 phone
                      > (916) 324-8829 fax
                      > >>> Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes@...> 09/05/07
                      > 10:39 AM >>>
                      > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
                      > Ringed Turtle-Dove)? Multiple African Collared-Doves
                      > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the
                      > same
                      > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
                      > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
                      > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
                      > implications would be for human assistance in the
                      > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
                      >
                      > Floyd Hayes
                      > Hidden Valley Lake, CA
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                    • Alvaro Jaramillo
                      Adam I know exactly what you mean, this is why the time argument is the one that I am most confident in. Even with moderate selection against the pale birds,
                      Message 10 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Adam



                        I know exactly what you mean, this is why the time argument is the one
                        that I am most confident in. Even with moderate selection against the pale
                        birds, there may not have been much time to dent their relative proportion
                        yet. I mean we really are talking about a short time frame here as far as
                        populations go. I would throw out the idea that this is a �recessive gene�
                        that is a very specific situation which I think is unlikely in this case.
                        The �risoria-like� phenotype is probably due to more than one gene, although
                        this is a guess. But then again the property of a gene being recessive or
                        dominant has nothing to do with shifting its proportions in a population, as
                        you note, selection for or against the gene does. This is why blue eyes are
                        not �bred out� when blue eyed people have kids with brown eyed people, the
                        genes stay in the same proportions as they started in�unless there is
                        selection against them. So I would argue that the pale birds we see are
                        still an effect of the founder population, there just hasn�t been enough
                        time for this genotype to be selected out, but my guess is that it will, or
                        at least it�s proportion will stabilize at a lower number than it is now.



                        By the way, here in Half Moon Bay, San Mateo County the Collared Dove is now
                        the second most common dove in town after Mourning. There are more of them
                        than Rock Pigeon, and at least in town more than Band-tailed Pigeons. It
                        only took three years or so for this to happen. What is interesting is how
                        these doves colonize a place. They seem to have nuclei of occurrence where
                        they begin from, and then expand outwardly from there. It is not a broad
                        front invasion, but disparate spots where they arrive, and then the
                        intervening areas fill in. This is a rather different mode of expansion than
                        most other bird expansions we have seen on the continent. This is certainly
                        THE ornithological event of our birding lifetimes I would say, and we are
                        all overlooking it. Has there ever been such a massive expansion in such a
                        quick time of any bird on the continent? The next best avian expansion story
                        that I can think of is Great-tailed Grackle, but that pales to what these
                        doves are doing. I mean the entire continent has been taken over in a few
                        years.



                        Thanks for the note!



                        Al



                        Alvaro Jaramillo

                        HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@..."chucao@...

                        Half Moon Bay, California



                        Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

                        HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

                        _____

                        From: Adam Winer [mailto:awiner@...]
                        Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 9:45 PM
                        To: Janet Leonard
                        Cc: Kimball Garrett; Floyd Hayes; Calbirds; Alvaro Jaramillo
                        Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?



                        We've veered far off the e-mail lists here, but that assertion
                        is mathematically false. Differential survival rates of
                        genotypes would have a huge impact on the eventual proportions
                        in a rapidly expanding population, for exactly the same reason that
                        relatively small differences in per-year returns on monetary investments
                        have an enormous effect over long periods.

                        The issue is not whether pale individuals are producing enough
                        to expand rapidly; it's whether they're producing enough to
                        expand as rapidly as "standard" individuals. As with anything
                        biological, many caveats apply - is this a recessive gene, if so are there
                        heterozygote advantages, is it more or less advantageous in some
                        habitats, etc. etc. But the basic point stands: were this a
                        significantly deleterious gene, it should get blasted out of
                        the gene pool in the course of the population explosion.

                        (BTW, I think the core fallacy is "rapidly expanding" equals
                        "low natural selection". Intensity of natural selection has
                        nothing to do with overall population changes, and everything to
                        do with relative reproductive success across genotypes.)

                        -- Adam Winer



                        On 9/6/07, Janet Leonard <HYPERLINK
                        "mailto:jlleonar@..."jlleonar@...> wrote:

                        Al-

                        If a population is rapidly expanding, it must by definition be experiencing
                        relatively low natural selection because more young survive and reproduce
                        than in stable populations. Therefore, your argument about recessives not
                        being weeded out makes sense.

                        Jan Leonard

                        Half Moon Bay



                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Alvaro Jaramillo" <HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao%40coastside.net"
                        \nchucao@...>
                        To: "'Kimball Garrett'" <HYPERLINK "mailto:kgarrett%40nhm.org"
                        \nkgarrett@...>; "'Floyd Hayes'"
                        <HYPERLINK "mailto:floyd_hayes%40yahoo.com" \nfloyd_hayes@...>;
                        "'Calbirds'" <HYPERLINK "mailto:calbirds%40yahoogroups.com" \n
                        calbirds@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:28 PM
                        Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?

                        Kimball et al.

                        Believe it or not I was thinking of sending a note along the same lines
                        as what you wrote to ID frontiers, but now that the conversation is on here,
                        I will add a few bits. I have been seeing a small proportion of the Half
                        Moon Bay, San Mateo County population of Euro Collared-Dove which are pale,
                        "risoria-like" but definitely E. Collared-Doves. I too have wondered about
                        the significance of this, and have thought that it is not due to local
                        releases, or hybridization but an aspect of the founder population in North
                        America. I guess that the slightly different spin I would put on it is that
                        the key elements may be the amazing expansion of the population and the
                        short time it has taken for this to happen. Assuming that the founder
                        population (Bahamas was it?) had pale Ringed T-D like birds, these genes
                        will remain in the growing population in the same proportion as they started
                        unless there is direct selection against them. My guess is that there is
                        selection against them, but given the huge and quick expansion there just
                        hasn't been that much time for this genotype to get weeded out from the
                        general population. I am no population geneticist, but I wonder also if in
                        an exponentially growing population which seems to have no immediate
                        limitation in its population growth, if selection against a plumage type
                        such as this is somehow lessened? So if we started with a founder population
                        of let's say 5% pale birds, in such a short time (twenty years or so?) the
                        expanding population may still have several percent pale birds involved. I
                        would predict that as populations eventually stabilize, and higher levels of
                        competition set in as the Collared-Dove niche is "filled" these pale birds
                        will be weeded out by natural selection (differential predation on them,
                        aggression from other doves, perhaps lesser ability to forage effectively
                        due to this.etc). Like I said, I am no population geneticist, and if there
                        is one out there who can say - Al you are full of it, I would be happy to
                        learn from someone "in the know."

                        Also, some additional information about Caribbean populations
                        which I have been able to see while on tour. In the Lesser Antilles, the
                        distribution of the dove is still expanding, and it appears that there may
                        have been more than the one introduction to the Bahamas. For example the
                        French Islands (Martinique and Guadeloupe) have huge populations of the
                        dove, while the island in-between (Dominica) has very few. The French
                        Islands are much more built up than Dominica, and this surely has an effect,
                        but given that the French Islands have various other introduced species,
                        while Dominica does not, suggests that the dove was introduced to the French
                        Islands. Puerto Rico also has a population which may have been an
                        independent introduction from the Bahamas birds. The birds in Puerto Rico
                        are very mixed looking, patchy birds, pale birds etc. The general thought is
                        that they are mixed populations between Euro Collared-Dove and "Ringed
                        Turtle-Dove" however on the west side of the island where the population was
                        pretty big, vocally birds were Eurasian Collared-Doves, although their
                        appearance was variable. In Guadeloupe and Martinique, birds were more
                        standard looking although pale birds were regularly seen.

                        Regards

                        Alvaro

                        Alvaro Jaramillo

                        HYPERLINK "mailto:HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao%40coastside.net"
                        \nchucao@..."HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao%40coastside.net" \n
                        chucao@...

                        Half Moon Bay, California

                        Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

                        HYPERLINK "HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"
                        \nhttp://www.fieldguides.com"HYPERLINK
                        "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

                        _____

                        From: HYPERLINK "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com"
                        \nCALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:HYPERLINK
                        "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com" \n CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                        Of Kimball Garrett
                        Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 2:13 PM
                        To: Floyd Hayes; Calbirds
                        Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?

                        Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.):

                        Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. "Ringed Turtle-Dove" is
                        indeed merely the domesticated form of African Collared-Dove,
                        Streptopelia roseogrisea. There is (fortunately) a trend away from
                        providing separate binomials for domesticated forms, though it is of
                        interest that Linnaeus coined the binomial Streptopelia risoria (for
                        "Ringed Turtle-Dove" or "Barbary Dove") before Streptopelia roseogrisea
                        was named in 1857. I do have another, related, comment.

                        >From my experience and that of many others with whom I've discussed
                        this, occasional pale morphs are often seen with established Eurasian
                        Collared-Dove (ECD) populations. In most cases these birds don't
                        exactly match "classic" creamy-colored, small "Ringed Turtle-Doves"
                        (RTDs), but they certainly differ from the expected phenotype of ECD.
                        Years ago, one popular explanation was that these were RTDs that
                        probably escaped from the same dove breeders who lost the ECDs (along,
                        no doubt, with hybrids), thus supporting the notion that all of the
                        various populations in California and neighboring regions resulted from
                        local releases. Now, of course, it is clear that most of our ECD
                        populations are part of the massive and rapid continent-wide expansion
                        of this species, and that "local origin" can only be proved in a few
                        cases.

                        My suspicion, without the benefit of specimens or DNA sequences to back
                        it up, is that a pale phenotype of ECD turns up occasionally in most
                        populations, perhaps maintained as a recessive trait in the expanding
                        populations. Perhaps this phenotype has its genetic origins in past
                        captive breeding shenanigans (e.g. selective breeding for pale
                        coloration, or cross-breeding with RTDs?). Or, perhaps, RTD genes were
                        picked up through interbreeding as ECDs spread across North America
                        (occasionally coming onto contact with escaped RTDs). But most likely
                        it is just a rare morph of ECD. Quoting from Derek Goodwin's Pigeons and
                        Doves of the World (Cornell Univ. Press, 1983): "Besides variation
                        within the normal range [of Eurasian Collared-Dove]-, very pale
                        individuals and others that are creamy buff like 'S. risoria' [RTD}
                        occur quite frequently in Britain. There is no reason to suppose the
                        mutants are of hybrid origin." Mention of pale creamy buff variants is
                        also made in the BNA account by Christina Romagosa, and such morphs were
                        noted by Bill Smith in some of the earliest populations established in
                        the U. S.

                        In any case, my point is that I'm not sure we should necessarily call
                        these pale birds RTDs (or, more properly, domesticated forms of African
                        Collared-Doves)-, absent a more thorough study. It seems likely that many
                        or most of them are ECDs. If you encounter a pale bird, pay close
                        attention to voice; the relatively clear 3-note cooing ("coo-COO-coo"-)
                        of ECD is utterly different from the guttural "koo-kRRRRooo" of RTDs.

                        Kimball

                        Kimball L. Garrett
                        Ornithology Collections Manager
                        Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
                        900 Exposition Blvd.
                        Los Angeles CA 90007
                        (213) 763-3368
                        (213) 746-2999 FAX
                        HYPERLINK "mailto:HYPERLINK "mailto:kgarrett%25" \nkgarrett%HYPERLINK
                        "http://40nhm.org" \n 40nhm.org"kgarrett@nhm.-org

                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: HYPERLINK
                        "mailto:HYPERLINK "mailto:CALBIRDS%25" \nCALBIRDS%HYPERLINK
                        "http://40yahoogroups.com"40yahoogroups.com"HYPERLINK
                        "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroup-s.com" \n CALBIRDS@...
                        [mailto:HYPERLINK "mailto:HYPERLINK" \nHYPERLINK
                        "mailto:HYPERLINK "mailto:CALBIRDS%25" \nCALBIRDS%HYPERLINK
                        "http://40yahoogroups.com"40yahoogroups.com"HYPERLINK
                        "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroup-s.com" \n CALBIRDS@...] On
                        Behalf
                        > Of Floyd Hayes
                        > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:40 AM
                        > To: Calbirds
                        > Subject: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                        >
                        > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
                        > Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
                        > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
                        > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
                        > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
                        > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
                        > implications would be for human assistance in the
                        > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
                        >
                        > Floyd Hayes
                        > Hidden Valley Lake, CA

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                      • Janet Leonard
                        Adam, Al et al. Relative reproductive success is a measure of natural selection; i.e. evolution through natural selection is measured as differential
                        Message 11 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Adam, Al et al.

                          Relative reproductive success is a measure of natural selection; i.e. evolution through natural selection is measured as differential reproductive success (which includes likelihood of surviving to reproduce) of genotypes. That is, a genotype that produces more offspring is more fit (lower natural selection) than one that produces less. For the effects of expanding population size on evolution from a population genetics viewpoint see Kimura, M. 1995 PNAS and commentary by Damgaard 1996 in TREE. Certainly the presence of pale birds is derived from the founding population but if there were strong natural selection, they would quickly become rare. If it is a recessive trait they would never become extinct but they could quickly become rare.


                          Jan Leonard



                          Half Moon Bay

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Adam Winer
                          To: Janet Leonard
                          Cc: Kimball Garrett ; Floyd Hayes ; Calbirds ; Alvaro Jaramillo
                          Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 9:44 PM
                          Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?


                          We've veered far off the e-mail lists here, but that assertion
                          is mathematically false. Differential survival rates of
                          genotypes would have a huge impact on the eventual proportions
                          in a rapidly expanding population, for exactly the same reason that
                          relatively small differences in per-year returns on monetary investments
                          have an enormous effect over long periods.

                          The issue is not whether pale individuals are producing enough
                          to expand rapidly; it's whether they're producing enough to
                          expand as rapidly as "standard" individuals. As with anything
                          biological, many caveats apply - is this a recessive gene, if so are there
                          heterozygote advantages, is it more or less advantageous in some
                          habitats, etc. etc. But the basic point stands: were this a
                          significantly deleterious gene, it should get blasted out of
                          the gene pool in the course of the population explosion.

                          (BTW, I think the core fallacy is "rapidly expanding" equals
                          "low natural selection". Intensity of natural selection has
                          nothing to do with overall population changes, and everything to
                          do with relative reproductive success across genotypes.)

                          -- Adam Winer



                          On 9/6/07, Janet Leonard <jlleonar@...> wrote:
                          Al-

                          If a population is rapidly expanding, it must by definition be experiencing
                          relatively low natural selection because more young survive and reproduce
                          than in stable populations. Therefore, your argument about recessives not
                          being weeded out makes sense.

                          Jan Leonard

                          Half Moon Bay



                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Alvaro Jaramillo" <chucao@...>
                          To: "'Kimball Garrett'" <kgarrett@...>; "'Floyd Hayes'"
                          <floyd_hayes@...>; "'Calbirds'" < calbirds@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:28 PM
                          Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?

                          Kimball et al.

                          Believe it or not I was thinking of sending a note along the same lines
                          as what you wrote to ID frontiers, but now that the conversation is on here,
                          I will add a few bits. I have been seeing a small proportion of the Half
                          Moon Bay, San Mateo County population of Euro Collared-Dove which are pale,
                          "risoria-like" but definitely E. Collared-Doves. I too have wondered about
                          the significance of this, and have thought that it is not due to local
                          releases, or hybridization but an aspect of the founder population in North
                          America. I guess that the slightly different spin I would put on it is that
                          the key elements may be the amazing expansion of the population and the
                          short time it has taken for this to happen. Assuming that the founder
                          population (Bahamas was it?) had pale Ringed T-D like birds, these genes
                          will remain in the growing population in the same proportion as they started
                          unless there is direct selection against them. My guess is that there is
                          selection against them, but given the huge and quick expansion there just
                          hasn't been that much time for this genotype to get weeded out from the
                          general population. I am no population geneticist, but I wonder also if in
                          an exponentially growing population which seems to have no immediate
                          limitation in its population growth, if selection against a plumage type
                          such as this is somehow lessened? So if we started with a founder population
                          of let's say 5% pale birds, in such a short time (twenty years or so?) the
                          expanding population may still have several percent pale birds involved. I
                          would predict that as populations eventually stabilize, and higher levels of
                          competition set in as the Collared-Dove niche is "filled" these pale birds
                          will be weeded out by natural selection (differential predation on them,
                          aggression from other doves, perhaps lesser ability to forage effectively
                          due to this.etc). Like I said, I am no population geneticist, and if there
                          is one out there who can say - Al you are full of it, I would be happy to
                          learn from someone "in the know."

                          Also, some additional information about Caribbean populations
                          which I have been able to see while on tour. In the Lesser Antilles, the
                          distribution of the dove is still expanding, and it appears that there may
                          have been more than the one introduction to the Bahamas. For example the
                          French Islands (Martinique and Guadeloupe) have huge populations of the
                          dove, while the island in-between (Dominica) has very few. The French
                          Islands are much more built up than Dominica, and this surely has an effect,
                          but given that the French Islands have various other introduced species,
                          while Dominica does not, suggests that the dove was introduced to the French
                          Islands. Puerto Rico also has a population which may have been an
                          independent introduction from the Bahamas birds. The birds in Puerto Rico
                          are very mixed looking, patchy birds, pale birds etc. The general thought is
                          that they are mixed populations between Euro Collared-Dove and "Ringed
                          Turtle-Dove" however on the west side of the island where the population was
                          pretty big, vocally birds were Eurasian Collared-Doves, although their
                          appearance was variable. In Guadeloupe and Martinique, birds were more
                          standard looking although pale birds were regularly seen.

                          Regards

                          Alvaro

                          Alvaro Jaramillo

                          HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@..." chucao@...

                          Half Moon Bay, California

                          Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

                          HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

                          _____

                          From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                          Of Kimball Garrett
                          Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 2:13 PM
                          To: Floyd Hayes; Calbirds
                          Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?

                          Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.):

                          Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. "Ringed Turtle-Dove" is
                          indeed merely the domesticated form of African Collared-Dove,
                          Streptopelia roseogrisea. There is (fortunately) a trend away from
                          providing separate binomials for domesticated forms, though it is of
                          interest that Linnaeus coined the binomial Streptopelia risoria (for
                          "Ringed Turtle-Dove" or "Barbary Dove") before Streptopelia roseogrisea
                          was named in 1857. I do have another, related, comment.

                          >From my experience and that of many others with whom I've discussed
                          this, occasional pale morphs are often seen with established Eurasian
                          Collared-Dove (ECD) populations. In most cases these birds don't
                          exactly match "classic" creamy-colored, small "Ringed Turtle-Doves"
                          (RTDs), but they certainly differ from the expected phenotype of ECD.
                          Years ago, one popular explanation was that these were RTDs that
                          probably escaped from the same dove breeders who lost the ECDs (along,
                          no doubt, with hybrids), thus supporting the notion that all of the
                          various populations in California and neighboring regions resulted from
                          local releases. Now, of course, it is clear that most of our ECD
                          populations are part of the massive and rapid continent-wide expansion
                          of this species, and that "local origin" can only be proved in a few
                          cases.

                          My suspicion, without the benefit of specimens or DNA sequences to back
                          it up, is that a pale phenotype of ECD turns up occasionally in most
                          populations, perhaps maintained as a recessive trait in the expanding
                          populations. Perhaps this phenotype has its genetic origins in past
                          captive breeding shenanigans (e.g. selective breeding for pale
                          coloration, or cross-breeding with RTDs?). Or, perhaps, RTD genes were
                          picked up through interbreeding as ECDs spread across North America
                          (occasionally coming onto contact with escaped RTDs). But most likely
                          it is just a rare morph of ECD. Quoting from Derek Goodwin's Pigeons and
                          Doves of the World (Cornell Univ. Press, 1983): "Besides variation
                          within the normal range [of Eurasian Collared-Dove]-, very pale
                          individuals and others that are creamy buff like 'S. risoria' [RTD}
                          occur quite frequently in Britain. There is no reason to suppose the
                          mutants are of hybrid origin." Mention of pale creamy buff variants is
                          also made in the BNA account by Christina Romagosa, and such morphs were
                          noted by Bill Smith in some of the earliest populations established in
                          the U. S.

                          In any case, my point is that I'm not sure we should necessarily call
                          these pale birds RTDs (or, more properly, domesticated forms of African
                          Collared-Doves)-, absent a more thorough study. It seems likely that many
                          or most of them are ECDs. If you encounter a pale bird, pay close
                          attention to voice; the relatively clear 3-note cooing ("coo-COO-coo"-)
                          of ECD is utterly different from the guttural "koo-kRRRRooo" of RTDs.

                          Kimball

                          Kimball L. Garrett
                          Ornithology Collections Manager
                          Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
                          900 Exposition Blvd.
                          Los Angeles CA 90007
                          (213) 763-3368
                          (213) 746-2999 FAX
                          HYPERLINK "mailto:kgarrett% 40nhm.org"kgarrett@nhm.-org

                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: HYPERLINK
                          "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com" CALBIRDS@...
                          [mailto:HYPERLINK
                          "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com" CALBIRDS@...] On
                          Behalf
                          > Of Floyd Hayes
                          > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:40 AM
                          > To: Calbirds
                          > Subject: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                          >
                          > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
                          > Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
                          > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
                          > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
                          > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
                          > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
                          > implications would be for human assistance in the
                          > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
                          >
                          > Floyd Hayes
                          > Hidden Valley Lake, CA

                          No virus found in this incoming message.
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                          3:18 PM

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                        • Rusty Scalf
                          ... It seems that these Doves have leap-frogged the San Francisco Basin. I was in Lee Vining recently and would estimate the Collared/Mourning ratio at about 3
                          Message 12 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
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                            > By the way, here in Half Moon Bay, San Mateo County the Collared Dove

                            > is now the second most common dove in town after Mourning. There are
                            > more of them than Rock Pigeon

                            It seems that these Doves have leap-frogged the San Francisco Basin.

                            I was in Lee Vining recently and would estimate the Collared/Mourning
                            ratio at about 3 to 1. And they're certainly all over the San Joaquin
                            Valley.

                            If they're that common on the San Mateo Coast, I wonder why this is not
                            the case in Oakland and Berkeley. They're about, but nothing like what
                            you describe.

                            Rusty Scalf
                          • dsuddjian@aol.com
                            In a message dated 9/6/2007 11:57:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rfs_berkeley@yahoo.com writes: If they re that common on the San Mateo Coast, I wonder why this
                            Message 13 of 16 , Sep 7, 2007
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                              In a message dated 9/6/2007 11:57:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                              rfs_berkeley@... writes:

                              If they're that common on the San Mateo Coast, I wonder why this is not
                              the case in Oakland and Berkeley. They're about, but nothing like what
                              you describe.

                              Maybe it is a matter of scale. In Santa Cruz County we are seeing the pattern
                              of expanding nuclei that Al mentions in the cities of Santa Cruz and
                              Watsonville, but while the species is becoming increasingly widespread here it remains
                              patchy and much more sporadic in other parts of the county. There are still
                              significant areas of likely habitat where one would have a hard time finding
                              ECD on order.

                              Interestingly, ECD was present in a nucleus area in western Santa Cruz for
                              several years before the regional invasion hit central CA a few years ago. It
                              remained quite local in that nucleus for years and only exhibited the strong
                              expanding pattern within western Santa Cruz coincident with the species'
                              broadscale arrival in central CA two to three years ago. But in Watsonville there
                              apparently were no nuclei before the regional invasion reached SCZ, but the
                              expanding nuclei pattern then developed there. My impression is that the local
                              pattern of nuclear explosion (if you'll pardon me) is fueled by the ongoing
                              broadscale influx.

                              David Suddjian
                              Capitola, CA



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                            • Floyd Hayes
                              I don t doubt that there are pale Eurasian Collared-Doves resembling African Collared-Doves, but I was familiar with both of these species from the Caribbean
                              Message 14 of 16 , Sep 7, 2007
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                                I don't doubt that there are pale Eurasian
                                Collared-Doves resembling African Collared-Doves, but
                                I was familiar with both of these species from the
                                Caribbean and I'm quite confident both are present in
                                the Napa Valley. On 2 January I saw about five of each
                                (the pale ones aren't rare), with the Eurasian
                                Collared-Doves giving three-noted calls and the
                                presumed African Collared-Doves giving two-noted
                                calls. I just posted photos at:

                                http://www.geocities.com/floyd_hayes/collared-doves.html

                                Incidentally, in contrast with the North American
                                mainland, Eurasian Collared-Doves are spreading very
                                slowly in the Caribbean. Despite an initial release in
                                the northern Bahamas (New Providence in 1974) it is
                                still relatively rare in the central and southern
                                Bahamas (my brother and I photographed San Salvador's
                                2nd in 2004). Unknown to most people, the birds were
                                definitely released (well documented) on Guadeloupe in
                                1976 (Barre et al., Pitirre 9(2):2-4, 1996), from
                                which they slowly spread northward, only recently
                                arriving in the Virgin Islands (one record, a bird I
                                photographed in 2003), and they also spread southward,
                                arriving in Dominica in 1987 and Martinique in 1994. I
                                don't think they have been recorded yet on any islands
                                to the south of Martinique except Trinidad, far to the
                                south, where I photographed one (origin unknown) in
                                2000.

                                Floyd Hayes
                                Hidden Valley Lake, CA



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                              • Kimball Garrett
                                [Note: I m not the listowner, but it s my opinion that Streptopelia doves are part of the California avifauna, and therefore fair game for discussion on this
                                Message 15 of 16 , Sep 7, 2007
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                                  [Note: I'm not the listowner, but it's my opinion that Streptopelia
                                  doves are part of the California avifauna, and therefore fair game for
                                  discussion on this list serve; I agree that discussions of population
                                  genetics may not qualify, however.]

                                  Two quick points:

                                  (1) Floyd surely is seeing African Collared-Doves (= "Barbary" or
                                  "Ringed Turtle-" Doves), and I didn't mean to imply in my previous
                                  messages that pale variant ECDs were the only possible explanation for
                                  what he was seeing. Domestic African Collared-Doves (ACDs or RTDs)
                                  escape very frequently, and of course central Los Angeles used to have a
                                  population that was even "ABA Countable" in the 1960s and 1970s (and had
                                  been established by the 1940s or earlier). Various morphs of ACDs are
                                  still released at the sorts of celebrations and public events that
                                  require liberation of large numbers of totally discombobulated domestic
                                  birds, and individuals escape all the time.

                                  (2) Regarding the discussion of ECDs being largely absent from most
                                  large urban areas such as the main San Francisco Bay metropolis, I think
                                  this is partly a matter of habitat -- this species generally doesn't do
                                  well in heavily urban areas. ECDs are absent or rare (tiny, very
                                  localized populations) in most of the greater Los Angeles urban area as
                                  well. This species depends almost entirely on grain -- in agricultural
                                  areas, weedy rural areas, industrial areas with grain mills, railroad
                                  right-of-ways in grain-producing regions, etc. Just about its only
                                  option in highly urbanized areas is commercial bird seed at feeders, and
                                  apparently there aren't enough feeders to sustain ECD populations in
                                  most highly urbanized areas.

                                  I'd much rather be out looking at Arctic Warblers than blabbing on about
                                  feral doves....

                                  Kimball

                                  Kimball L. Garrett
                                  Ornithology Collections Manager
                                  Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
                                  900 Exposition Blvd.
                                  Los Angeles CA 90007
                                  (213) 763-3368
                                  (213) 746-2999 FAX
                                  kgarrett@...


                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  Behalf
                                  > Of Floyd Hayes
                                  > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 10:59 AM
                                  > To: Calbirds
                                  > Subject: [CALBIRDS] RE: How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                                  >
                                  > I don't doubt that there are pale Eurasian
                                  > Collared-Doves resembling African Collared-Doves, but
                                  > I was familiar with both of these species from the
                                  > Caribbean and I'm quite confident both are present in
                                  > the Napa Valley.
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