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How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?

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  • Floyd Hayes
    How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka Ringed Turtle-Dove)? Multiple African Collared-Doves and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 5, 2007
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      How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
      Ringed Turtle-Dove)? Multiple African Collared-Doves
      and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
      time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
      Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
      alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
      implications would be for human assistance in the
      spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.

      Floyd Hayes
      Hidden Valley Lake, CA



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
      Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.
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    • Steve Hampton
      Floyd, I think most consider the African Collared-Dove and the Ringed Turtle-Dove to be distinct species, so really there are three similar species we are
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
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        Floyd,

        I think most consider the African Collared-Dove and the Ringed Turtle-Dove to be distinct species, so really there are three similar species we are talking about:

        Ringed Turtle-Dove Streptopelia risoria
        African Collared-Dove Streptopelia roseogrisea
        Eurasian Collared-Dove Streptopelia decaocto

        Decaocto is now widespread in SE Calif and spreading NW (from the nationwide expansion), and also has some established populations along the coast (from previous releases). It does associate with and hybridize with risoria on occasion, but in general risoria is rare in the wild, probably limited to escapees who seem to find decaocto when lonely. I haven't heard of roseogrisea in California.

        good birding,



        Steve Hampton
        ________________
        Resource Economist
        Office of Spill Prevention and Response
        California Dept of Fish and Game
        PO Box 944209
        Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
        -----------------------------------
        (916) 323-4724 phone
        (916) 324-8829 fax
        >>> Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes@...> 09/05/07 10:39 AM >>>
        How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
        Ringed Turtle-Dove)? Multiple African Collared-Doves
        and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
        time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
        Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
        alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
        implications would be for human assistance in the
        spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.

        Floyd Hayes
        Hidden Valley Lake, CA



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      • Bruce Deuel
        The A.O.U. (47th supplement to the checklist, 2006) has decreed that risoria IS roseogrisea. Cheers, Bruce Deuel Redding 33 ... Floyd, I think most consider
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
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          The A.O.U. (47th supplement to the checklist, 2006) has decreed that risoria IS roseogrisea.

          Cheers,
          Bruce Deuel
          Redding
          33

          >>> "Steve Hampton" <shampton@...> 9/6/2007 12:52 PM >>>
          Floyd,

          I think most consider the African Collared-Dove and the Ringed Turtle-Dove to be distinct species, so really there are three similar species we are talking about:

          Ringed Turtle-Dove Streptopelia risoria
          African Collared-Dove Streptopelia roseogrisea
          Eurasian Collared-Dove Streptopelia decaocto

          Decaocto is now widespread in SE Calif and spreading NW (from the nationwide expansion), and also has some established populations along the coast (from previous releases). It does associate with and hybridize with risoria on occasion, but in general risoria is rare in the wild, probably limited to escapees who seem to find decaocto when lonely. I haven't heard of roseogrisea in California.

          good birding,



          Steve Hampton
          ________________
          Resource Economist
          Office of Spill Prevention and Response
          California Dept of Fish and Game
          PO Box 944209
          Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
          -----------------------------------
          (916) 323-4724 phone
          (916) 324-8829 fax
          >>> Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes@...> 09/05/07 10:39 AM >>>
          How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
          Ringed Turtle-Dove)? Multiple African Collared-Doves
          and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
          time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
          Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
          alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
          implications would be for human assistance in the
          spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.

          Floyd Hayes
          Hidden Valley Lake, CA



          ____________________________________________________________________________________
          Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.
          http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/


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        • Alvaro Jaramillo
          Steve It is confusing, but risoria (Ringed Turtle-Dove) is considered a domesticated form or roseogrisea (African Collared-Dove). So it is akin to saying
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
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            Steve



            It is confusing, but risoria (Ringed Turtle-Dove) is considered a
            domesticated form or roseogrisea (African Collared-Dove). So it is akin to
            saying Ringed Turtle-Dove is to African Collared-Dove as Canis familiaris
            (Dog) is to Canis lupus (Wolf). It is strange that some domesticated animals
            have a species designation to begin with, but we do have them. I wonder if
            in time we will also have Homo sapiens urbanus, for �city folk.�



            Cheers



            Al



            Alvaro Jaramillo

            HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@..."chucao@...

            Half Moon Bay, California



            Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

            HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

            _____

            From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of Steve Hampton
            Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 12:53 PM
            To: calbirds@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?



            Floyd,

            I think most consider the African Collared-Dove and the Ringed Turtle-Dove
            to be distinct species, so really there are three similar species we are
            talking about:

            Ringed Turtle-Dove Streptopelia risoria
            African Collared-Dove Streptopelia roseogrisea
            Eurasian Collared-Dove Streptopelia decaocto

            Decaocto is now widespread in SE Calif and spreading NW (from the nationwide
            expansion), and also has some established populations along the coast (from
            previous releases). It does associate with and hybridize with risoria on
            occasion, but in general risoria is rare in the wild, probably limited to
            escapees who seem to find decaocto when lonely. I haven't heard of
            roseogrisea in California.

            good birding,

            Steve Hampton
            ____________-____
            Resource Economist
            Office of Spill Prevention and Response
            California Dept of Fish and Game
            PO Box 944209
            Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
            --------------------------------------
            (916) 323-4724 phone
            (916) 324-8829 fax
            >>> Floyd Hayes <HYPERLINK
            "mailto:floyd_hayes%40yahoo.com"floyd_hayes@...> 09/05/07 10:39 AM
            >>>
            How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
            Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
            and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
            time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
            Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
            alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
            implications would be for human assistance in the
            spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.

            Floyd Hayes
            Hidden Valley Lake, CA

            ____________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_
            Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car
            Finder tool.
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          • Kimball Garrett
            Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.): Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. Ringed Turtle-Dove is indeed merely the domesticated form of
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
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              Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.):

              Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. "Ringed Turtle-Dove" is
              indeed merely the domesticated form of African Collared-Dove,
              Streptopelia roseogrisea. There is (fortunately) a trend away from
              providing separate binomials for domesticated forms, though it is of
              interest that Linnaeus coined the binomial Streptopelia risoria (for
              "Ringed Turtle-Dove" or "Barbary Dove") before Streptopelia roseogrisea
              was named in 1857. I do have another, related, comment.

              From my experience and that of many others with whom I've discussed
              this, occasional pale morphs are often seen with established Eurasian
              Collared-Dove (ECD) populations. In most cases these birds don't
              exactly match "classic" creamy-colored, small "Ringed Turtle-Doves"
              (RTDs), but they certainly differ from the expected phenotype of ECD.
              Years ago, one popular explanation was that these were RTDs that
              probably escaped from the same dove breeders who lost the ECDs (along,
              no doubt, with hybrids), thus supporting the notion that all of the
              various populations in California and neighboring regions resulted from
              local releases. Now, of course, it is clear that most of our ECD
              populations are part of the massive and rapid continent-wide expansion
              of this species, and that "local origin" can only be proved in a few
              cases.

              My suspicion, without the benefit of specimens or DNA sequences to back
              it up, is that a pale phenotype of ECD turns up occasionally in most
              populations, perhaps maintained as a recessive trait in the expanding
              populations. Perhaps this phenotype has its genetic origins in past
              captive breeding shenanigans (e.g. selective breeding for pale
              coloration, or cross-breeding with RTDs?). Or, perhaps, RTD genes were
              picked up through interbreeding as ECDs spread across North America
              (occasionally coming onto contact with escaped RTDs). But most likely
              it is just a rare morph of ECD. Quoting from Derek Goodwin's Pigeons and
              Doves of the World (Cornell Univ. Press, 1983): "Besides variation
              within the normal range [of Eurasian Collared-Dove], very pale
              individuals and others that are creamy buff like 'S. risoria' [RTD}
              occur quite frequently in Britain. There is no reason to suppose the
              mutants are of hybrid origin." Mention of pale creamy buff variants is
              also made in the BNA account by Christina Romagosa, and such morphs were
              noted by Bill Smith in some of the earliest populations established in
              the U. S.

              In any case, my point is that I'm not sure we should necessarily call
              these pale birds RTDs (or, more properly, domesticated forms of African
              Collared-Doves), absent a more thorough study. It seems likely that many
              or most of them are ECDs. If you encounter a pale bird, pay close
              attention to voice; the relatively clear 3-note cooing ("coo-COO-coo")
              of ECD is utterly different from the guttural "koo-kRRRRooo" of RTDs.

              Kimball

              Kimball L. Garrett
              Ornithology Collections Manager
              Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
              900 Exposition Blvd.
              Los Angeles CA 90007
              (213) 763-3368
              (213) 746-2999 FAX
              kgarrett@...

              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf
              > Of Floyd Hayes
              > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:40 AM
              > To: Calbirds
              > Subject: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
              >
              > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
              > Ringed Turtle-Dove)? Multiple African Collared-Doves
              > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
              > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
              > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
              > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
              > implications would be for human assistance in the
              > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
              >
              > Floyd Hayes
              > Hidden Valley Lake, CA
            • Janet Leonard
              FYI- The species designation for domestic animals, probably, I think, goes back to Linnaeus who was not thinking in evolutionary terms, merely sorting things
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
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                FYI-

                The species designation for domestic animals, probably, I think, goes back
                to Linnaeus who was not thinking in evolutionary terms, merely sorting
                things into pigeonholes. These designations
                should probably get cleared up and abolished but they have a certain
                practical utility; e.g. studies of Canis lupus in the Western US are quite
                different from what would be the case if domestic dogs were included. Also,
                there is a tendency for splitting to persist for higher vertebrates even
                when we know that there are no reproductive barriers. A bit off-message for
                this group but maybe of general interest.


                Jan Leonard

                Half Moon Bay


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Alvaro Jaramillo" <chucao@...>
                To: "'Steve Hampton'" <shampton@...>; <calbirds@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 1:37 PM
                Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?


                Steve



                It is confusing, but risoria (Ringed Turtle-Dove) is considered a
                domesticated form or roseogrisea (African Collared-Dove). So it is akin to
                saying Ringed Turtle-Dove is to African Collared-Dove as Canis familiaris
                (Dog) is to Canis lupus (Wolf). It is strange that some domesticated animals
                have a species designation to begin with, but we do have them. I wonder if
                in time we will also have Homo sapiens urbanus, for "city folk."



                Cheers



                Al



                Alvaro Jaramillo

                HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@..."chucao@...

                Half Moon Bay, California



                Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

                HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

                _____

                From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of Steve Hampton
                Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 12:53 PM
                To: calbirds@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?



                Floyd,

                I think most consider the African Collared-Dove and the Ringed Turtle-Dove
                to be distinct species, so really there are three similar species we are
                talking about:

                Ringed Turtle-Dove Streptopelia risoria
                African Collared-Dove Streptopelia roseogrisea
                Eurasian Collared-Dove Streptopelia decaocto

                Decaocto is now widespread in SE Calif and spreading NW (from the nationwide
                expansion), and also has some established populations along the coast (from
                previous releases). It does associate with and hybridize with risoria on
                occasion, but in general risoria is rare in the wild, probably limited to
                escapees who seem to find decaocto when lonely. I haven't heard of
                roseogrisea in California.

                good birding,

                Steve Hampton
                ____________-____
                Resource Economist
                Office of Spill Prevention and Response
                California Dept of Fish and Game
                PO Box 944209
                Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
                --------------------------------------
                (916) 323-4724 phone
                (916) 324-8829 fax
                >>> Floyd Hayes <HYPERLINK
                "mailto:floyd_hayes%40yahoo.com"floyd_hayes@...> 09/05/07 10:39 AM
                >>>
                How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
                Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
                and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
                time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
                Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
                alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
                implications would be for human assistance in the
                spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.

                Floyd Hayes
                Hidden Valley Lake, CA

                ____________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_
                Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car
                Finder tool.
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                "http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/"http://autos.-yahoo.com/-carfinder/

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              • Alvaro Jaramillo
                Kimball et al. Believe it or not I was thinking of sending a note along the same lines as what you wrote to ID frontiers, but now that the conversation is on
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
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                  Kimball et al.



                  Believe it or not I was thinking of sending a note along the same lines
                  as what you wrote to ID frontiers, but now that the conversation is on here,
                  I will add a few bits. I have been seeing a small proportion of the Half
                  Moon Bay, San Mateo County population of Euro Collared-Dove which are pale,
                  �risoria-like� but definitely E. Collared-Doves. I too have wondered about
                  the significance of this, and have thought that it is not due to local
                  releases, or hybridization but an aspect of the founder population in North
                  America. I guess that the slightly different spin I would put on it is that
                  the key elements may be the amazing expansion of the population and the
                  short time it has taken for this to happen. Assuming that the founder
                  population (Bahamas was it?) had pale Ringed T-D like birds, these genes
                  will remain in the growing population in the same proportion as they started
                  unless there is direct selection against them. My guess is that there is
                  selection against them, but given the huge and quick expansion there just
                  hasn�t been that much time for this genotype to get weeded out from the
                  general population. I am no population geneticist, but I wonder also if in
                  an exponentially growing population which seems to have no immediate
                  limitation in its population growth, if selection against a plumage type
                  such as this is somehow lessened? So if we started with a founder population
                  of let�s say 5% pale birds, in such a short time (twenty years or so?) the
                  expanding population may still have several percent pale birds involved. I
                  would predict that as populations eventually stabilize, and higher levels of
                  competition set in as the Collared-Dove niche is �filled� these pale birds
                  will be weeded out by natural selection (differential predation on them,
                  aggression from other doves, perhaps lesser ability to forage effectively
                  due to this�etc). Like I said, I am no population geneticist, and if there
                  is one out there who can say � Al you are full of it, I would be happy to
                  learn from someone �in the know.�

                  Also, some additional information about Caribbean populations
                  which I have been able to see while on tour. In the Lesser Antilles, the
                  distribution of the dove is still expanding, and it appears that there may
                  have been more than the one introduction to the Bahamas. For example the
                  French Islands (Martinique and Guadeloupe) have huge populations of the
                  dove, while the island in-between (Dominica) has very few. The French
                  Islands are much more built up than Dominica, and this surely has an effect,
                  but given that the French Islands have various other introduced species,
                  while Dominica does not, suggests that the dove was introduced to the French
                  Islands. Puerto Rico also has a population which may have been an
                  independent introduction from the Bahamas birds. The birds in Puerto Rico
                  are very mixed looking, patchy birds, pale birds etc. The general thought is
                  that they are mixed populations between Euro Collared-Dove and �Ringed
                  Turtle-Dove� however on the west side of the island where the population was
                  pretty big, vocally birds were Eurasian Collared-Doves, although their
                  appearance was variable. In Guadeloupe and Martinique, birds were more
                  standard looking although pale birds were regularly seen.



                  Regards



                  Alvaro



                  Alvaro Jaramillo

                  HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@..."chucao@...

                  Half Moon Bay, California



                  Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

                  HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

                  _____

                  From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  Of Kimball Garrett
                  Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 2:13 PM
                  To: Floyd Hayes; Calbirds
                  Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?



                  Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.):

                  Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. "Ringed Turtle-Dove" is
                  indeed merely the domesticated form of African Collared-Dove,
                  Streptopelia roseogrisea. There is (fortunately) a trend away from
                  providing separate binomials for domesticated forms, though it is of
                  interest that Linnaeus coined the binomial Streptopelia risoria (for
                  "Ringed Turtle-Dove" or "Barbary Dove") before Streptopelia roseogrisea
                  was named in 1857. I do have another, related, comment.

                  From my experience and that of many others with whom I've discussed
                  this, occasional pale morphs are often seen with established Eurasian
                  Collared-Dove (ECD) populations. In most cases these birds don't
                  exactly match "classic" creamy-colored, small "Ringed Turtle-Doves"
                  (RTDs), but they certainly differ from the expected phenotype of ECD.
                  Years ago, one popular explanation was that these were RTDs that
                  probably escaped from the same dove breeders who lost the ECDs (along,
                  no doubt, with hybrids), thus supporting the notion that all of the
                  various populations in California and neighboring regions resulted from
                  local releases. Now, of course, it is clear that most of our ECD
                  populations are part of the massive and rapid continent-wide expansion
                  of this species, and that "local origin" can only be proved in a few
                  cases.

                  My suspicion, without the benefit of specimens or DNA sequences to back
                  it up, is that a pale phenotype of ECD turns up occasionally in most
                  populations, perhaps maintained as a recessive trait in the expanding
                  populations. Perhaps this phenotype has its genetic origins in past
                  captive breeding shenanigans (e.g. selective breeding for pale
                  coloration, or cross-breeding with RTDs?). Or, perhaps, RTD genes were
                  picked up through interbreeding as ECDs spread across North America
                  (occasionally coming onto contact with escaped RTDs). But most likely
                  it is just a rare morph of ECD. Quoting from Derek Goodwin's Pigeons and
                  Doves of the World (Cornell Univ. Press, 1983): "Besides variation
                  within the normal range [of Eurasian Collared-Dove]-, very pale
                  individuals and others that are creamy buff like 'S. risoria' [RTD}
                  occur quite frequently in Britain. There is no reason to suppose the
                  mutants are of hybrid origin." Mention of pale creamy buff variants is
                  also made in the BNA account by Christina Romagosa, and such morphs were
                  noted by Bill Smith in some of the earliest populations established in
                  the U. S.

                  In any case, my point is that I'm not sure we should necessarily call
                  these pale birds RTDs (or, more properly, domesticated forms of African
                  Collared-Doves)-, absent a more thorough study. It seems likely that many
                  or most of them are ECDs. If you encounter a pale bird, pay close
                  attention to voice; the relatively clear 3-note cooing ("coo-COO-coo"-)
                  of ECD is utterly different from the guttural "koo-kRRRRooo" of RTDs.

                  Kimball

                  Kimball L. Garrett
                  Ornithology Collections Manager
                  Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
                  900 Exposition Blvd.
                  Los Angeles CA 90007
                  (213) 763-3368
                  (213) 746-2999 FAX
                  HYPERLINK "mailto:kgarrett%40nhm.org"kgarrett@nhm.-org

                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: HYPERLINK
                  "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com"CALBIRDS@...
                  [mailto:HYPERLINK
                  "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com"CALBIRDS@...] On
                  Behalf
                  > Of Floyd Hayes
                  > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:40 AM
                  > To: Calbirds
                  > Subject: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                  >
                  > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
                  > Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
                  > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
                  > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
                  > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
                  > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
                  > implications would be for human assistance in the
                  > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
                  >
                  > Floyd Hayes
                  > Hidden Valley Lake, CA




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                  3:18 PM



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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Janet Leonard
                  Al- If a population is rapidly expanding, it must by definition be experiencing relatively low natural selection because more young survive and reproduce than
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
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                    Al-

                    If a population is rapidly expanding, it must by definition be experiencing
                    relatively low natural selection because more young survive and reproduce
                    than in stable populations. Therefore, your argument about recessives not
                    being weeded out makes sense.


                    Jan Leonard

                    Half Moon Bay

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Alvaro Jaramillo" <chucao@...>
                    To: "'Kimball Garrett'" <kgarrett@...>; "'Floyd Hayes'"
                    <floyd_hayes@...>; "'Calbirds'" <calbirds@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:28 PM
                    Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?


                    Kimball et al.



                    Believe it or not I was thinking of sending a note along the same lines
                    as what you wrote to ID frontiers, but now that the conversation is on here,
                    I will add a few bits. I have been seeing a small proportion of the Half
                    Moon Bay, San Mateo County population of Euro Collared-Dove which are pale,
                    "risoria-like" but definitely E. Collared-Doves. I too have wondered about
                    the significance of this, and have thought that it is not due to local
                    releases, or hybridization but an aspect of the founder population in North
                    America. I guess that the slightly different spin I would put on it is that
                    the key elements may be the amazing expansion of the population and the
                    short time it has taken for this to happen. Assuming that the founder
                    population (Bahamas was it?) had pale Ringed T-D like birds, these genes
                    will remain in the growing population in the same proportion as they started
                    unless there is direct selection against them. My guess is that there is
                    selection against them, but given the huge and quick expansion there just
                    hasn't been that much time for this genotype to get weeded out from the
                    general population. I am no population geneticist, but I wonder also if in
                    an exponentially growing population which seems to have no immediate
                    limitation in its population growth, if selection against a plumage type
                    such as this is somehow lessened? So if we started with a founder population
                    of let's say 5% pale birds, in such a short time (twenty years or so?) the
                    expanding population may still have several percent pale birds involved. I
                    would predict that as populations eventually stabilize, and higher levels of
                    competition set in as the Collared-Dove niche is "filled" these pale birds
                    will be weeded out by natural selection (differential predation on them,
                    aggression from other doves, perhaps lesser ability to forage effectively
                    due to this.etc). Like I said, I am no population geneticist, and if there
                    is one out there who can say - Al you are full of it, I would be happy to
                    learn from someone "in the know."

                    Also, some additional information about Caribbean populations
                    which I have been able to see while on tour. In the Lesser Antilles, the
                    distribution of the dove is still expanding, and it appears that there may
                    have been more than the one introduction to the Bahamas. For example the
                    French Islands (Martinique and Guadeloupe) have huge populations of the
                    dove, while the island in-between (Dominica) has very few. The French
                    Islands are much more built up than Dominica, and this surely has an effect,
                    but given that the French Islands have various other introduced species,
                    while Dominica does not, suggests that the dove was introduced to the French
                    Islands. Puerto Rico also has a population which may have been an
                    independent introduction from the Bahamas birds. The birds in Puerto Rico
                    are very mixed looking, patchy birds, pale birds etc. The general thought is
                    that they are mixed populations between Euro Collared-Dove and "Ringed
                    Turtle-Dove" however on the west side of the island where the population was
                    pretty big, vocally birds were Eurasian Collared-Doves, although their
                    appearance was variable. In Guadeloupe and Martinique, birds were more
                    standard looking although pale birds were regularly seen.



                    Regards



                    Alvaro



                    Alvaro Jaramillo

                    HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@..."chucao@...

                    Half Moon Bay, California



                    Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

                    HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

                    _____

                    From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    Of Kimball Garrett
                    Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 2:13 PM
                    To: Floyd Hayes; Calbirds
                    Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?



                    Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.):

                    Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. "Ringed Turtle-Dove" is
                    indeed merely the domesticated form of African Collared-Dove,
                    Streptopelia roseogrisea. There is (fortunately) a trend away from
                    providing separate binomials for domesticated forms, though it is of
                    interest that Linnaeus coined the binomial Streptopelia risoria (for
                    "Ringed Turtle-Dove" or "Barbary Dove") before Streptopelia roseogrisea
                    was named in 1857. I do have another, related, comment.

                    >From my experience and that of many others with whom I've discussed
                    this, occasional pale morphs are often seen with established Eurasian
                    Collared-Dove (ECD) populations. In most cases these birds don't
                    exactly match "classic" creamy-colored, small "Ringed Turtle-Doves"
                    (RTDs), but they certainly differ from the expected phenotype of ECD.
                    Years ago, one popular explanation was that these were RTDs that
                    probably escaped from the same dove breeders who lost the ECDs (along,
                    no doubt, with hybrids), thus supporting the notion that all of the
                    various populations in California and neighboring regions resulted from
                    local releases. Now, of course, it is clear that most of our ECD
                    populations are part of the massive and rapid continent-wide expansion
                    of this species, and that "local origin" can only be proved in a few
                    cases.

                    My suspicion, without the benefit of specimens or DNA sequences to back
                    it up, is that a pale phenotype of ECD turns up occasionally in most
                    populations, perhaps maintained as a recessive trait in the expanding
                    populations. Perhaps this phenotype has its genetic origins in past
                    captive breeding shenanigans (e.g. selective breeding for pale
                    coloration, or cross-breeding with RTDs?). Or, perhaps, RTD genes were
                    picked up through interbreeding as ECDs spread across North America
                    (occasionally coming onto contact with escaped RTDs). But most likely
                    it is just a rare morph of ECD. Quoting from Derek Goodwin's Pigeons and
                    Doves of the World (Cornell Univ. Press, 1983): "Besides variation
                    within the normal range [of Eurasian Collared-Dove]-, very pale
                    individuals and others that are creamy buff like 'S. risoria' [RTD}
                    occur quite frequently in Britain. There is no reason to suppose the
                    mutants are of hybrid origin." Mention of pale creamy buff variants is
                    also made in the BNA account by Christina Romagosa, and such morphs were
                    noted by Bill Smith in some of the earliest populations established in
                    the U. S.

                    In any case, my point is that I'm not sure we should necessarily call
                    these pale birds RTDs (or, more properly, domesticated forms of African
                    Collared-Doves)-, absent a more thorough study. It seems likely that many
                    or most of them are ECDs. If you encounter a pale bird, pay close
                    attention to voice; the relatively clear 3-note cooing ("coo-COO-coo"-)
                    of ECD is utterly different from the guttural "koo-kRRRRooo" of RTDs.

                    Kimball

                    Kimball L. Garrett
                    Ornithology Collections Manager
                    Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
                    900 Exposition Blvd.
                    Los Angeles CA 90007
                    (213) 763-3368
                    (213) 746-2999 FAX
                    HYPERLINK "mailto:kgarrett%40nhm.org"kgarrett@nhm.-org

                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: HYPERLINK
                    "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com"CALBIRDS@...
                    [mailto:HYPERLINK
                    "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com"CALBIRDS@...] On
                    Behalf
                    > Of Floyd Hayes
                    > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:40 AM
                    > To: Calbirds
                    > Subject: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                    >
                    > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
                    > Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
                    > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
                    > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
                    > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
                    > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
                    > implications would be for human assistance in the
                    > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
                    >
                    > Floyd Hayes
                    > Hidden Valley Lake, CA




                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                    Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.8/993 - Release Date: 9/6/2007
                    3:18 PM



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                    Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.8/993 - Release Date: 9/6/2007
                    3:18 PM



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                    3:18 PM
                  • Adam Winer
                    We ve veered far off the e-mail lists here, but that assertion is mathematically false. Differential survival rates of genotypes would have a huge impact on
                    Message 9 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
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                      We've veered far off the e-mail lists here, but that assertion
                      is mathematically false. Differential survival rates of
                      genotypes would have a huge impact on the eventual proportions
                      in a rapidly expanding population, for exactly the same reason that
                      relatively small differences in per-year returns on monetary investments
                      have an enormous effect over long periods.

                      The issue is not whether pale individuals are producing enough
                      to expand rapidly; it's whether they're producing enough to
                      expand as rapidly as "standard" individuals. As with anything
                      biological, many caveats apply - is this a recessive gene, if so are there
                      heterozygote advantages, is it more or less advantageous in some
                      habitats, etc. etc. But the basic point stands: were this a
                      significantly deleterious gene, it should get blasted out of
                      the gene pool in the course of the population explosion.

                      (BTW, I think the core fallacy is "rapidly expanding" equals
                      "low natural selection". Intensity of natural selection has
                      nothing to do with overall population changes, and everything to
                      do with relative reproductive success across genotypes.)

                      -- Adam Winer


                      On 9/6/07, Janet Leonard <jlleonar@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Al-
                      >
                      > If a population is rapidly expanding, it must by definition be
                      > experiencing
                      > relatively low natural selection because more young survive and reproduce
                      > than in stable populations. Therefore, your argument about recessives not
                      > being weeded out makes sense.
                      >
                      > Jan Leonard
                      >
                      > Half Moon Bay
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Alvaro Jaramillo" <chucao@... <chucao%40coastside.net>>
                      > To: "'Kimball Garrett'" <kgarrett@... <kgarrett%40nhm.org>>; "'Floyd
                      > Hayes'"
                      > <floyd_hayes@... <floyd_hayes%40yahoo.com>>; "'Calbirds'" <
                      > calbirds@yahoogroups.com <calbirds%40yahoogroups.com>>
                      > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:28 PM
                      > Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                      >
                      > Kimball et al.
                      >
                      > Believe it or not I was thinking of sending a note along the same lines
                      > as what you wrote to ID frontiers, but now that the conversation is on
                      > here,
                      > I will add a few bits. I have been seeing a small proportion of the Half
                      > Moon Bay, San Mateo County population of Euro Collared-Dove which are
                      > pale,
                      > "risoria-like" but definitely E. Collared-Doves. I too have wondered about
                      > the significance of this, and have thought that it is not due to local
                      > releases, or hybridization but an aspect of the founder population in
                      > North
                      > America. I guess that the slightly different spin I would put on it is
                      > that
                      > the key elements may be the amazing expansion of the population and the
                      > short time it has taken for this to happen. Assuming that the founder
                      > population (Bahamas was it?) had pale Ringed T-D like birds, these genes
                      > will remain in the growing population in the same proportion as they
                      > started
                      > unless there is direct selection against them. My guess is that there is
                      > selection against them, but given the huge and quick expansion there just
                      > hasn't been that much time for this genotype to get weeded out from the
                      > general population. I am no population geneticist, but I wonder also if in
                      > an exponentially growing population which seems to have no immediate
                      > limitation in its population growth, if selection against a plumage type
                      > such as this is somehow lessened? So if we started with a founder
                      > population
                      > of let's say 5% pale birds, in such a short time (twenty years or so?) the
                      > expanding population may still have several percent pale birds involved. I
                      > would predict that as populations eventually stabilize, and higher levels
                      > of
                      > competition set in as the Collared-Dove niche is "filled" these pale birds
                      > will be weeded out by natural selection (differential predation on them,
                      > aggression from other doves, perhaps lesser ability to forage effectively
                      > due to this.etc). Like I said, I am no population geneticist, and if there
                      > is one out there who can say - Al you are full of it, I would be happy to
                      > learn from someone "in the know."
                      >
                      > Also, some additional information about Caribbean populations
                      > which I have been able to see while on tour. In the Lesser Antilles, the
                      > distribution of the dove is still expanding, and it appears that there may
                      > have been more than the one introduction to the Bahamas. For example the
                      > French Islands (Martinique and Guadeloupe) have huge populations of the
                      > dove, while the island in-between (Dominica) has very few. The French
                      > Islands are much more built up than Dominica, and this surely has an
                      > effect,
                      > but given that the French Islands have various other introduced species,
                      > while Dominica does not, suggests that the dove was introduced to the
                      > French
                      > Islands. Puerto Rico also has a population which may have been an
                      > independent introduction from the Bahamas birds. The birds in Puerto Rico
                      > are very mixed looking, patchy birds, pale birds etc. The general thought
                      > is
                      > that they are mixed populations between Euro Collared-Dove and "Ringed
                      > Turtle-Dove" however on the west side of the island where the population
                      > was
                      > pretty big, vocally birds were Eurasian Collared-Doves, although their
                      > appearance was variable. In Guadeloupe and Martinique, birds were more
                      > standard looking although pale birds were regularly seen.
                      >
                      > Regards
                      >
                      > Alvaro
                      >
                      > Alvaro Jaramillo
                      >
                      > HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@... <chucao%40coastside.net>"
                      > chucao@... <chucao%40coastside.net>
                      >
                      > Half Moon Bay, California
                      >
                      > Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
                      >
                      > HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com
                      >
                      > _____
                      >
                      > From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com <CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                      > CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com <CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
                      > Of Kimball Garrett
                      > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 2:13 PM
                      > To: Floyd Hayes; Calbirds
                      > Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                      >
                      > Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.):
                      >
                      > Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. "Ringed Turtle-Dove" is
                      > indeed merely the domesticated form of African Collared-Dove,
                      > Streptopelia roseogrisea. There is (fortunately) a trend away from
                      > providing separate binomials for domesticated forms, though it is of
                      > interest that Linnaeus coined the binomial Streptopelia risoria (for
                      > "Ringed Turtle-Dove" or "Barbary Dove") before Streptopelia roseogrisea
                      > was named in 1857. I do have another, related, comment.
                      >
                      > >From my experience and that of many others with whom I've discussed
                      > this, occasional pale morphs are often seen with established Eurasian
                      > Collared-Dove (ECD) populations. In most cases these birds don't
                      > exactly match "classic" creamy-colored, small "Ringed Turtle-Doves"
                      > (RTDs), but they certainly differ from the expected phenotype of ECD.
                      > Years ago, one popular explanation was that these were RTDs that
                      > probably escaped from the same dove breeders who lost the ECDs (along,
                      > no doubt, with hybrids), thus supporting the notion that all of the
                      > various populations in California and neighboring regions resulted from
                      > local releases. Now, of course, it is clear that most of our ECD
                      > populations are part of the massive and rapid continent-wide expansion
                      > of this species, and that "local origin" can only be proved in a few
                      > cases.
                      >
                      > My suspicion, without the benefit of specimens or DNA sequences to back
                      > it up, is that a pale phenotype of ECD turns up occasionally in most
                      > populations, perhaps maintained as a recessive trait in the expanding
                      > populations. Perhaps this phenotype has its genetic origins in past
                      > captive breeding shenanigans (e.g. selective breeding for pale
                      > coloration, or cross-breeding with RTDs?). Or, perhaps, RTD genes were
                      > picked up through interbreeding as ECDs spread across North America
                      > (occasionally coming onto contact with escaped RTDs). But most likely
                      > it is just a rare morph of ECD. Quoting from Derek Goodwin's Pigeons and
                      > Doves of the World (Cornell Univ. Press, 1983): "Besides variation
                      > within the normal range [of Eurasian Collared-Dove]-, very pale
                      > individuals and others that are creamy buff like 'S. risoria' [RTD}
                      > occur quite frequently in Britain. There is no reason to suppose the
                      > mutants are of hybrid origin." Mention of pale creamy buff variants is
                      > also made in the BNA account by Christina Romagosa, and such morphs were
                      > noted by Bill Smith in some of the earliest populations established in
                      > the U. S.
                      >
                      > In any case, my point is that I'm not sure we should necessarily call
                      > these pale birds RTDs (or, more properly, domesticated forms of African
                      > Collared-Doves)-, absent a more thorough study. It seems likely that many
                      > or most of them are ECDs. If you encounter a pale bird, pay close
                      > attention to voice; the relatively clear 3-note cooing ("coo-COO-coo"-)
                      > of ECD is utterly different from the guttural "koo-kRRRRooo" of RTDs.
                      >
                      > Kimball
                      >
                      > Kimball L. Garrett
                      > Ornithology Collections Manager
                      > Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
                      > 900 Exposition Blvd.
                      > Los Angeles CA 90007
                      > (213) 763-3368
                      > (213) 746-2999 FAX
                      > HYPERLINK "mailto:kgarrett% <kgarrett%25>40nhm.org"kgarrett@nhm.-org
                      >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: HYPERLINK
                      > "mailto:CALBIRDS% <CALBIRDS%25>40yahoogroups.com"CALBIRDS@...<CALBIRDS%40yahoogroup-s.com>
                      > [mailto:HYPERLINK
                      > "mailto:CALBIRDS% <CALBIRDS%25>40yahoogroups.com"CALBIRDS@...<CALBIRDS%40yahoogroup-s.com>]
                      > On
                      > Behalf
                      > > Of Floyd Hayes
                      > > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:40 AM
                      > > To: Calbirds
                      > > Subject: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                      > >
                      > > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
                      > > Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
                      > > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
                      > > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
                      > > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
                      > > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
                      > > implications would be for human assistance in the
                      > > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
                      > >
                      > > Floyd Hayes
                      > > Hidden Valley Lake, CA
                      >
                      > No virus found in this incoming message.
                      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                      > Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.8/993 - Release Date: 9/6/2007
                      > 3:18 PM
                      >
                      > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                      > Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.8/993 - Release Date: 9/6/2007
                      > 3:18 PM
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > Unsubscribe: mailto:CALBIRDS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<CALBIRDS-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Chet ogan
                      Floyd, I found breeding Eurasian Collared Dove in 2006 in Humboldt County, to my recollection they were first found at a feed and grain store in Eureka in
                      Message 10 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
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                        Floyd,
                        I found breeding Eurasian Collared Dove in 2006 in
                        Humboldt County, to my recollection they were first
                        found at a feed and grain store in Eureka in 2005. I
                        also had Eurasian Collared Dove at Cedarville, Modoc
                        Co in July 2006. I saw my first Ringed Turtle Dove in
                        Carpinteria, Ca in 2000 and Eurasian Collared Dove at
                        the same exact location in 2001.

                        Chet Ogan
                        Eureka, Humboldt Co

                        --- Steve Hampton <shampton@...> wrote:

                        > Floyd,
                        >
                        > I think most consider the African Collared-Dove and
                        > the Ringed Turtle-Dove to be distinct species, so
                        > really there are three similar species we are
                        > talking about:
                        >
                        > Ringed Turtle-Dove Streptopelia risoria
                        > African Collared-Dove Streptopelia roseogrisea
                        > Eurasian Collared-Dove Streptopelia decaocto
                        >
                        > Decaocto is now widespread in SE Calif and spreading
                        > NW (from the nationwide expansion), and also has
                        > some established populations along the coast (from
                        > previous releases). It does associate with and
                        > hybridize with risoria on occasion, but in general
                        > risoria is rare in the wild, probably limited to
                        > escapees who seem to find decaocto when lonely. I
                        > haven't heard of roseogrisea in California.
                        >
                        > good birding,
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Steve Hampton
                        > ________________
                        > Resource Economist
                        > Office of Spill Prevention and Response
                        > California Dept of Fish and Game
                        > PO Box 944209
                        > Sacramento, CA 94244-2090
                        > -----------------------------------
                        > (916) 323-4724 phone
                        > (916) 324-8829 fax
                        > >>> Floyd Hayes <floyd_hayes@...> 09/05/07
                        > 10:39 AM >>>
                        > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
                        > Ringed Turtle-Dove)? Multiple African Collared-Doves
                        > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the
                        > same
                        > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
                        > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
                        > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
                        > implications would be for human assistance in the
                        > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
                        >
                        > Floyd Hayes
                        > Hidden Valley Lake, CA
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • Alvaro Jaramillo
                        Adam I know exactly what you mean, this is why the time argument is the one that I am most confident in. Even with moderate selection against the pale birds,
                        Message 11 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
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                          Adam



                          I know exactly what you mean, this is why the time argument is the one
                          that I am most confident in. Even with moderate selection against the pale
                          birds, there may not have been much time to dent their relative proportion
                          yet. I mean we really are talking about a short time frame here as far as
                          populations go. I would throw out the idea that this is a �recessive gene�
                          that is a very specific situation which I think is unlikely in this case.
                          The �risoria-like� phenotype is probably due to more than one gene, although
                          this is a guess. But then again the property of a gene being recessive or
                          dominant has nothing to do with shifting its proportions in a population, as
                          you note, selection for or against the gene does. This is why blue eyes are
                          not �bred out� when blue eyed people have kids with brown eyed people, the
                          genes stay in the same proportions as they started in�unless there is
                          selection against them. So I would argue that the pale birds we see are
                          still an effect of the founder population, there just hasn�t been enough
                          time for this genotype to be selected out, but my guess is that it will, or
                          at least it�s proportion will stabilize at a lower number than it is now.



                          By the way, here in Half Moon Bay, San Mateo County the Collared Dove is now
                          the second most common dove in town after Mourning. There are more of them
                          than Rock Pigeon, and at least in town more than Band-tailed Pigeons. It
                          only took three years or so for this to happen. What is interesting is how
                          these doves colonize a place. They seem to have nuclei of occurrence where
                          they begin from, and then expand outwardly from there. It is not a broad
                          front invasion, but disparate spots where they arrive, and then the
                          intervening areas fill in. This is a rather different mode of expansion than
                          most other bird expansions we have seen on the continent. This is certainly
                          THE ornithological event of our birding lifetimes I would say, and we are
                          all overlooking it. Has there ever been such a massive expansion in such a
                          quick time of any bird on the continent? The next best avian expansion story
                          that I can think of is Great-tailed Grackle, but that pales to what these
                          doves are doing. I mean the entire continent has been taken over in a few
                          years.



                          Thanks for the note!



                          Al



                          Alvaro Jaramillo

                          HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@..."chucao@...

                          Half Moon Bay, California



                          Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

                          HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

                          _____

                          From: Adam Winer [mailto:awiner@...]
                          Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 9:45 PM
                          To: Janet Leonard
                          Cc: Kimball Garrett; Floyd Hayes; Calbirds; Alvaro Jaramillo
                          Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?



                          We've veered far off the e-mail lists here, but that assertion
                          is mathematically false. Differential survival rates of
                          genotypes would have a huge impact on the eventual proportions
                          in a rapidly expanding population, for exactly the same reason that
                          relatively small differences in per-year returns on monetary investments
                          have an enormous effect over long periods.

                          The issue is not whether pale individuals are producing enough
                          to expand rapidly; it's whether they're producing enough to
                          expand as rapidly as "standard" individuals. As with anything
                          biological, many caveats apply - is this a recessive gene, if so are there
                          heterozygote advantages, is it more or less advantageous in some
                          habitats, etc. etc. But the basic point stands: were this a
                          significantly deleterious gene, it should get blasted out of
                          the gene pool in the course of the population explosion.

                          (BTW, I think the core fallacy is "rapidly expanding" equals
                          "low natural selection". Intensity of natural selection has
                          nothing to do with overall population changes, and everything to
                          do with relative reproductive success across genotypes.)

                          -- Adam Winer



                          On 9/6/07, Janet Leonard <HYPERLINK
                          "mailto:jlleonar@..."jlleonar@...> wrote:

                          Al-

                          If a population is rapidly expanding, it must by definition be experiencing
                          relatively low natural selection because more young survive and reproduce
                          than in stable populations. Therefore, your argument about recessives not
                          being weeded out makes sense.

                          Jan Leonard

                          Half Moon Bay



                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Alvaro Jaramillo" <HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao%40coastside.net"
                          \nchucao@...>
                          To: "'Kimball Garrett'" <HYPERLINK "mailto:kgarrett%40nhm.org"
                          \nkgarrett@...>; "'Floyd Hayes'"
                          <HYPERLINK "mailto:floyd_hayes%40yahoo.com" \nfloyd_hayes@...>;
                          "'Calbirds'" <HYPERLINK "mailto:calbirds%40yahoogroups.com" \n
                          calbirds@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:28 PM
                          Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?

                          Kimball et al.

                          Believe it or not I was thinking of sending a note along the same lines
                          as what you wrote to ID frontiers, but now that the conversation is on here,
                          I will add a few bits. I have been seeing a small proportion of the Half
                          Moon Bay, San Mateo County population of Euro Collared-Dove which are pale,
                          "risoria-like" but definitely E. Collared-Doves. I too have wondered about
                          the significance of this, and have thought that it is not due to local
                          releases, or hybridization but an aspect of the founder population in North
                          America. I guess that the slightly different spin I would put on it is that
                          the key elements may be the amazing expansion of the population and the
                          short time it has taken for this to happen. Assuming that the founder
                          population (Bahamas was it?) had pale Ringed T-D like birds, these genes
                          will remain in the growing population in the same proportion as they started
                          unless there is direct selection against them. My guess is that there is
                          selection against them, but given the huge and quick expansion there just
                          hasn't been that much time for this genotype to get weeded out from the
                          general population. I am no population geneticist, but I wonder also if in
                          an exponentially growing population which seems to have no immediate
                          limitation in its population growth, if selection against a plumage type
                          such as this is somehow lessened? So if we started with a founder population
                          of let's say 5% pale birds, in such a short time (twenty years or so?) the
                          expanding population may still have several percent pale birds involved. I
                          would predict that as populations eventually stabilize, and higher levels of
                          competition set in as the Collared-Dove niche is "filled" these pale birds
                          will be weeded out by natural selection (differential predation on them,
                          aggression from other doves, perhaps lesser ability to forage effectively
                          due to this.etc). Like I said, I am no population geneticist, and if there
                          is one out there who can say - Al you are full of it, I would be happy to
                          learn from someone "in the know."

                          Also, some additional information about Caribbean populations
                          which I have been able to see while on tour. In the Lesser Antilles, the
                          distribution of the dove is still expanding, and it appears that there may
                          have been more than the one introduction to the Bahamas. For example the
                          French Islands (Martinique and Guadeloupe) have huge populations of the
                          dove, while the island in-between (Dominica) has very few. The French
                          Islands are much more built up than Dominica, and this surely has an effect,
                          but given that the French Islands have various other introduced species,
                          while Dominica does not, suggests that the dove was introduced to the French
                          Islands. Puerto Rico also has a population which may have been an
                          independent introduction from the Bahamas birds. The birds in Puerto Rico
                          are very mixed looking, patchy birds, pale birds etc. The general thought is
                          that they are mixed populations between Euro Collared-Dove and "Ringed
                          Turtle-Dove" however on the west side of the island where the population was
                          pretty big, vocally birds were Eurasian Collared-Doves, although their
                          appearance was variable. In Guadeloupe and Martinique, birds were more
                          standard looking although pale birds were regularly seen.

                          Regards

                          Alvaro

                          Alvaro Jaramillo

                          HYPERLINK "mailto:HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao%40coastside.net"
                          \nchucao@..."HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao%40coastside.net" \n
                          chucao@...

                          Half Moon Bay, California

                          Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

                          HYPERLINK "HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"
                          \nhttp://www.fieldguides.com"HYPERLINK
                          "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

                          _____

                          From: HYPERLINK "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com"
                          \nCALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:HYPERLINK
                          "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com" \n CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                          Of Kimball Garrett
                          Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 2:13 PM
                          To: Floyd Hayes; Calbirds
                          Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?

                          Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.):

                          Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. "Ringed Turtle-Dove" is
                          indeed merely the domesticated form of African Collared-Dove,
                          Streptopelia roseogrisea. There is (fortunately) a trend away from
                          providing separate binomials for domesticated forms, though it is of
                          interest that Linnaeus coined the binomial Streptopelia risoria (for
                          "Ringed Turtle-Dove" or "Barbary Dove") before Streptopelia roseogrisea
                          was named in 1857. I do have another, related, comment.

                          >From my experience and that of many others with whom I've discussed
                          this, occasional pale morphs are often seen with established Eurasian
                          Collared-Dove (ECD) populations. In most cases these birds don't
                          exactly match "classic" creamy-colored, small "Ringed Turtle-Doves"
                          (RTDs), but they certainly differ from the expected phenotype of ECD.
                          Years ago, one popular explanation was that these were RTDs that
                          probably escaped from the same dove breeders who lost the ECDs (along,
                          no doubt, with hybrids), thus supporting the notion that all of the
                          various populations in California and neighboring regions resulted from
                          local releases. Now, of course, it is clear that most of our ECD
                          populations are part of the massive and rapid continent-wide expansion
                          of this species, and that "local origin" can only be proved in a few
                          cases.

                          My suspicion, without the benefit of specimens or DNA sequences to back
                          it up, is that a pale phenotype of ECD turns up occasionally in most
                          populations, perhaps maintained as a recessive trait in the expanding
                          populations. Perhaps this phenotype has its genetic origins in past
                          captive breeding shenanigans (e.g. selective breeding for pale
                          coloration, or cross-breeding with RTDs?). Or, perhaps, RTD genes were
                          picked up through interbreeding as ECDs spread across North America
                          (occasionally coming onto contact with escaped RTDs). But most likely
                          it is just a rare morph of ECD. Quoting from Derek Goodwin's Pigeons and
                          Doves of the World (Cornell Univ. Press, 1983): "Besides variation
                          within the normal range [of Eurasian Collared-Dove]-, very pale
                          individuals and others that are creamy buff like 'S. risoria' [RTD}
                          occur quite frequently in Britain. There is no reason to suppose the
                          mutants are of hybrid origin." Mention of pale creamy buff variants is
                          also made in the BNA account by Christina Romagosa, and such morphs were
                          noted by Bill Smith in some of the earliest populations established in
                          the U. S.

                          In any case, my point is that I'm not sure we should necessarily call
                          these pale birds RTDs (or, more properly, domesticated forms of African
                          Collared-Doves)-, absent a more thorough study. It seems likely that many
                          or most of them are ECDs. If you encounter a pale bird, pay close
                          attention to voice; the relatively clear 3-note cooing ("coo-COO-coo"-)
                          of ECD is utterly different from the guttural "koo-kRRRRooo" of RTDs.

                          Kimball

                          Kimball L. Garrett
                          Ornithology Collections Manager
                          Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
                          900 Exposition Blvd.
                          Los Angeles CA 90007
                          (213) 763-3368
                          (213) 746-2999 FAX
                          HYPERLINK "mailto:HYPERLINK "mailto:kgarrett%25" \nkgarrett%HYPERLINK
                          "http://40nhm.org" \n 40nhm.org"kgarrett@nhm.-org

                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: HYPERLINK
                          "mailto:HYPERLINK "mailto:CALBIRDS%25" \nCALBIRDS%HYPERLINK
                          "http://40yahoogroups.com"40yahoogroups.com"HYPERLINK
                          "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroup-s.com" \n CALBIRDS@...
                          [mailto:HYPERLINK "mailto:HYPERLINK" \nHYPERLINK
                          "mailto:HYPERLINK "mailto:CALBIRDS%25" \nCALBIRDS%HYPERLINK
                          "http://40yahoogroups.com"40yahoogroups.com"HYPERLINK
                          "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroup-s.com" \n CALBIRDS@...] On
                          Behalf
                          > Of Floyd Hayes
                          > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:40 AM
                          > To: Calbirds
                          > Subject: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                          >
                          > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
                          > Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
                          > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
                          > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
                          > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
                          > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
                          > implications would be for human assistance in the
                          > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
                          >
                          > Floyd Hayes
                          > Hidden Valley Lake, CA

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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Janet Leonard
                          Adam, Al et al. Relative reproductive success is a measure of natural selection; i.e. evolution through natural selection is measured as differential
                          Message 12 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
                          View Source
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Adam, Al et al.

                            Relative reproductive success is a measure of natural selection; i.e. evolution through natural selection is measured as differential reproductive success (which includes likelihood of surviving to reproduce) of genotypes. That is, a genotype that produces more offspring is more fit (lower natural selection) than one that produces less. For the effects of expanding population size on evolution from a population genetics viewpoint see Kimura, M. 1995 PNAS and commentary by Damgaard 1996 in TREE. Certainly the presence of pale birds is derived from the founding population but if there were strong natural selection, they would quickly become rare. If it is a recessive trait they would never become extinct but they could quickly become rare.


                            Jan Leonard



                            Half Moon Bay

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Adam Winer
                            To: Janet Leonard
                            Cc: Kimball Garrett ; Floyd Hayes ; Calbirds ; Alvaro Jaramillo
                            Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 9:44 PM
                            Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?


                            We've veered far off the e-mail lists here, but that assertion
                            is mathematically false. Differential survival rates of
                            genotypes would have a huge impact on the eventual proportions
                            in a rapidly expanding population, for exactly the same reason that
                            relatively small differences in per-year returns on monetary investments
                            have an enormous effect over long periods.

                            The issue is not whether pale individuals are producing enough
                            to expand rapidly; it's whether they're producing enough to
                            expand as rapidly as "standard" individuals. As with anything
                            biological, many caveats apply - is this a recessive gene, if so are there
                            heterozygote advantages, is it more or less advantageous in some
                            habitats, etc. etc. But the basic point stands: were this a
                            significantly deleterious gene, it should get blasted out of
                            the gene pool in the course of the population explosion.

                            (BTW, I think the core fallacy is "rapidly expanding" equals
                            "low natural selection". Intensity of natural selection has
                            nothing to do with overall population changes, and everything to
                            do with relative reproductive success across genotypes.)

                            -- Adam Winer



                            On 9/6/07, Janet Leonard <jlleonar@...> wrote:
                            Al-

                            If a population is rapidly expanding, it must by definition be experiencing
                            relatively low natural selection because more young survive and reproduce
                            than in stable populations. Therefore, your argument about recessives not
                            being weeded out makes sense.

                            Jan Leonard

                            Half Moon Bay



                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Alvaro Jaramillo" <chucao@...>
                            To: "'Kimball Garrett'" <kgarrett@...>; "'Floyd Hayes'"
                            <floyd_hayes@...>; "'Calbirds'" < calbirds@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:28 PM
                            Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?

                            Kimball et al.

                            Believe it or not I was thinking of sending a note along the same lines
                            as what you wrote to ID frontiers, but now that the conversation is on here,
                            I will add a few bits. I have been seeing a small proportion of the Half
                            Moon Bay, San Mateo County population of Euro Collared-Dove which are pale,
                            "risoria-like" but definitely E. Collared-Doves. I too have wondered about
                            the significance of this, and have thought that it is not due to local
                            releases, or hybridization but an aspect of the founder population in North
                            America. I guess that the slightly different spin I would put on it is that
                            the key elements may be the amazing expansion of the population and the
                            short time it has taken for this to happen. Assuming that the founder
                            population (Bahamas was it?) had pale Ringed T-D like birds, these genes
                            will remain in the growing population in the same proportion as they started
                            unless there is direct selection against them. My guess is that there is
                            selection against them, but given the huge and quick expansion there just
                            hasn't been that much time for this genotype to get weeded out from the
                            general population. I am no population geneticist, but I wonder also if in
                            an exponentially growing population which seems to have no immediate
                            limitation in its population growth, if selection against a plumage type
                            such as this is somehow lessened? So if we started with a founder population
                            of let's say 5% pale birds, in such a short time (twenty years or so?) the
                            expanding population may still have several percent pale birds involved. I
                            would predict that as populations eventually stabilize, and higher levels of
                            competition set in as the Collared-Dove niche is "filled" these pale birds
                            will be weeded out by natural selection (differential predation on them,
                            aggression from other doves, perhaps lesser ability to forage effectively
                            due to this.etc). Like I said, I am no population geneticist, and if there
                            is one out there who can say - Al you are full of it, I would be happy to
                            learn from someone "in the know."

                            Also, some additional information about Caribbean populations
                            which I have been able to see while on tour. In the Lesser Antilles, the
                            distribution of the dove is still expanding, and it appears that there may
                            have been more than the one introduction to the Bahamas. For example the
                            French Islands (Martinique and Guadeloupe) have huge populations of the
                            dove, while the island in-between (Dominica) has very few. The French
                            Islands are much more built up than Dominica, and this surely has an effect,
                            but given that the French Islands have various other introduced species,
                            while Dominica does not, suggests that the dove was introduced to the French
                            Islands. Puerto Rico also has a population which may have been an
                            independent introduction from the Bahamas birds. The birds in Puerto Rico
                            are very mixed looking, patchy birds, pale birds etc. The general thought is
                            that they are mixed populations between Euro Collared-Dove and "Ringed
                            Turtle-Dove" however on the west side of the island where the population was
                            pretty big, vocally birds were Eurasian Collared-Doves, although their
                            appearance was variable. In Guadeloupe and Martinique, birds were more
                            standard looking although pale birds were regularly seen.

                            Regards

                            Alvaro

                            Alvaro Jaramillo

                            HYPERLINK "mailto:chucao@..." chucao@...

                            Half Moon Bay, California

                            Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

                            HYPERLINK "http://www.fieldguides.com"www.fieldguides.com

                            _____

                            From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                            Of Kimball Garrett
                            Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 2:13 PM
                            To: Floyd Hayes; Calbirds
                            Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?

                            Floyd (and Steve, Bruce, Alvaro, et al.):

                            Thank you, Bruce, for clearing up the taxonomy. "Ringed Turtle-Dove" is
                            indeed merely the domesticated form of African Collared-Dove,
                            Streptopelia roseogrisea. There is (fortunately) a trend away from
                            providing separate binomials for domesticated forms, though it is of
                            interest that Linnaeus coined the binomial Streptopelia risoria (for
                            "Ringed Turtle-Dove" or "Barbary Dove") before Streptopelia roseogrisea
                            was named in 1857. I do have another, related, comment.

                            >From my experience and that of many others with whom I've discussed
                            this, occasional pale morphs are often seen with established Eurasian
                            Collared-Dove (ECD) populations. In most cases these birds don't
                            exactly match "classic" creamy-colored, small "Ringed Turtle-Doves"
                            (RTDs), but they certainly differ from the expected phenotype of ECD.
                            Years ago, one popular explanation was that these were RTDs that
                            probably escaped from the same dove breeders who lost the ECDs (along,
                            no doubt, with hybrids), thus supporting the notion that all of the
                            various populations in California and neighboring regions resulted from
                            local releases. Now, of course, it is clear that most of our ECD
                            populations are part of the massive and rapid continent-wide expansion
                            of this species, and that "local origin" can only be proved in a few
                            cases.

                            My suspicion, without the benefit of specimens or DNA sequences to back
                            it up, is that a pale phenotype of ECD turns up occasionally in most
                            populations, perhaps maintained as a recessive trait in the expanding
                            populations. Perhaps this phenotype has its genetic origins in past
                            captive breeding shenanigans (e.g. selective breeding for pale
                            coloration, or cross-breeding with RTDs?). Or, perhaps, RTD genes were
                            picked up through interbreeding as ECDs spread across North America
                            (occasionally coming onto contact with escaped RTDs). But most likely
                            it is just a rare morph of ECD. Quoting from Derek Goodwin's Pigeons and
                            Doves of the World (Cornell Univ. Press, 1983): "Besides variation
                            within the normal range [of Eurasian Collared-Dove]-, very pale
                            individuals and others that are creamy buff like 'S. risoria' [RTD}
                            occur quite frequently in Britain. There is no reason to suppose the
                            mutants are of hybrid origin." Mention of pale creamy buff variants is
                            also made in the BNA account by Christina Romagosa, and such morphs were
                            noted by Bill Smith in some of the earliest populations established in
                            the U. S.

                            In any case, my point is that I'm not sure we should necessarily call
                            these pale birds RTDs (or, more properly, domesticated forms of African
                            Collared-Doves)-, absent a more thorough study. It seems likely that many
                            or most of them are ECDs. If you encounter a pale bird, pay close
                            attention to voice; the relatively clear 3-note cooing ("coo-COO-coo"-)
                            of ECD is utterly different from the guttural "koo-kRRRRooo" of RTDs.

                            Kimball

                            Kimball L. Garrett
                            Ornithology Collections Manager
                            Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
                            900 Exposition Blvd.
                            Los Angeles CA 90007
                            (213) 763-3368
                            (213) 746-2999 FAX
                            HYPERLINK "mailto:kgarrett% 40nhm.org"kgarrett@nhm.-org

                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: HYPERLINK
                            "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com" CALBIRDS@...
                            [mailto:HYPERLINK
                            "mailto:CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com" CALBIRDS@...] On
                            Behalf
                            > Of Floyd Hayes
                            > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:40 AM
                            > To: Calbirds
                            > Subject: [CALBIRDS] How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                            >
                            > How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove (aka
                            > Ringed Turtle-Dove)-? Multiple African Collared-Doves
                            > and Eurasian Collared-Doves showed up around the same
                            > time in Napa Valley. I'm curious to know if African
                            > Collared-Doves are turning up elsewhere in CA
                            > alongside Eurasian Collared-Doves, and what the
                            > implications would be for human assistance in the
                            > spread of Eurasian Collared-Doves.
                            >
                            > Floyd Hayes
                            > Hidden Valley Lake, CA

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                          • Rusty Scalf
                            ... It seems that these Doves have leap-frogged the San Francisco Basin. I was in Lee Vining recently and would estimate the Collared/Mourning ratio at about 3
                            Message 13 of 16 , Sep 6, 2007
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                              > By the way, here in Half Moon Bay, San Mateo County the Collared Dove

                              > is now the second most common dove in town after Mourning. There are
                              > more of them than Rock Pigeon

                              It seems that these Doves have leap-frogged the San Francisco Basin.

                              I was in Lee Vining recently and would estimate the Collared/Mourning
                              ratio at about 3 to 1. And they're certainly all over the San Joaquin
                              Valley.

                              If they're that common on the San Mateo Coast, I wonder why this is not
                              the case in Oakland and Berkeley. They're about, but nothing like what
                              you describe.

                              Rusty Scalf
                            • dsuddjian@aol.com
                              In a message dated 9/6/2007 11:57:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rfs_berkeley@yahoo.com writes: If they re that common on the San Mateo Coast, I wonder why this
                              Message 14 of 16 , Sep 7, 2007
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                                In a message dated 9/6/2007 11:57:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                                rfs_berkeley@... writes:

                                If they're that common on the San Mateo Coast, I wonder why this is not
                                the case in Oakland and Berkeley. They're about, but nothing like what
                                you describe.

                                Maybe it is a matter of scale. In Santa Cruz County we are seeing the pattern
                                of expanding nuclei that Al mentions in the cities of Santa Cruz and
                                Watsonville, but while the species is becoming increasingly widespread here it remains
                                patchy and much more sporadic in other parts of the county. There are still
                                significant areas of likely habitat where one would have a hard time finding
                                ECD on order.

                                Interestingly, ECD was present in a nucleus area in western Santa Cruz for
                                several years before the regional invasion hit central CA a few years ago. It
                                remained quite local in that nucleus for years and only exhibited the strong
                                expanding pattern within western Santa Cruz coincident with the species'
                                broadscale arrival in central CA two to three years ago. But in Watsonville there
                                apparently were no nuclei before the regional invasion reached SCZ, but the
                                expanding nuclei pattern then developed there. My impression is that the local
                                pattern of nuclear explosion (if you'll pardon me) is fueled by the ongoing
                                broadscale influx.

                                David Suddjian
                                Capitola, CA



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                              • Floyd Hayes
                                I don t doubt that there are pale Eurasian Collared-Doves resembling African Collared-Doves, but I was familiar with both of these species from the Caribbean
                                Message 15 of 16 , Sep 7, 2007
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                                  I don't doubt that there are pale Eurasian
                                  Collared-Doves resembling African Collared-Doves, but
                                  I was familiar with both of these species from the
                                  Caribbean and I'm quite confident both are present in
                                  the Napa Valley. On 2 January I saw about five of each
                                  (the pale ones aren't rare), with the Eurasian
                                  Collared-Doves giving three-noted calls and the
                                  presumed African Collared-Doves giving two-noted
                                  calls. I just posted photos at:

                                  http://www.geocities.com/floyd_hayes/collared-doves.html

                                  Incidentally, in contrast with the North American
                                  mainland, Eurasian Collared-Doves are spreading very
                                  slowly in the Caribbean. Despite an initial release in
                                  the northern Bahamas (New Providence in 1974) it is
                                  still relatively rare in the central and southern
                                  Bahamas (my brother and I photographed San Salvador's
                                  2nd in 2004). Unknown to most people, the birds were
                                  definitely released (well documented) on Guadeloupe in
                                  1976 (Barre et al., Pitirre 9(2):2-4, 1996), from
                                  which they slowly spread northward, only recently
                                  arriving in the Virgin Islands (one record, a bird I
                                  photographed in 2003), and they also spread southward,
                                  arriving in Dominica in 1987 and Martinique in 1994. I
                                  don't think they have been recorded yet on any islands
                                  to the south of Martinique except Trinidad, far to the
                                  south, where I photographed one (origin unknown) in
                                  2000.

                                  Floyd Hayes
                                  Hidden Valley Lake, CA



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                                • Kimball Garrett
                                  [Note: I m not the listowner, but it s my opinion that Streptopelia doves are part of the California avifauna, and therefore fair game for discussion on this
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Sep 7, 2007
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                                    [Note: I'm not the listowner, but it's my opinion that Streptopelia
                                    doves are part of the California avifauna, and therefore fair game for
                                    discussion on this list serve; I agree that discussions of population
                                    genetics may not qualify, however.]

                                    Two quick points:

                                    (1) Floyd surely is seeing African Collared-Doves (= "Barbary" or
                                    "Ringed Turtle-" Doves), and I didn't mean to imply in my previous
                                    messages that pale variant ECDs were the only possible explanation for
                                    what he was seeing. Domestic African Collared-Doves (ACDs or RTDs)
                                    escape very frequently, and of course central Los Angeles used to have a
                                    population that was even "ABA Countable" in the 1960s and 1970s (and had
                                    been established by the 1940s or earlier). Various morphs of ACDs are
                                    still released at the sorts of celebrations and public events that
                                    require liberation of large numbers of totally discombobulated domestic
                                    birds, and individuals escape all the time.

                                    (2) Regarding the discussion of ECDs being largely absent from most
                                    large urban areas such as the main San Francisco Bay metropolis, I think
                                    this is partly a matter of habitat -- this species generally doesn't do
                                    well in heavily urban areas. ECDs are absent or rare (tiny, very
                                    localized populations) in most of the greater Los Angeles urban area as
                                    well. This species depends almost entirely on grain -- in agricultural
                                    areas, weedy rural areas, industrial areas with grain mills, railroad
                                    right-of-ways in grain-producing regions, etc. Just about its only
                                    option in highly urbanized areas is commercial bird seed at feeders, and
                                    apparently there aren't enough feeders to sustain ECD populations in
                                    most highly urbanized areas.

                                    I'd much rather be out looking at Arctic Warblers than blabbing on about
                                    feral doves....

                                    Kimball

                                    Kimball L. Garrett
                                    Ornithology Collections Manager
                                    Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
                                    900 Exposition Blvd.
                                    Los Angeles CA 90007
                                    (213) 763-3368
                                    (213) 746-2999 FAX
                                    kgarrett@...


                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    Behalf
                                    > Of Floyd Hayes
                                    > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 10:59 AM
                                    > To: Calbirds
                                    > Subject: [CALBIRDS] RE: How widespread in CA is African Collared-Dove?
                                    >
                                    > I don't doubt that there are pale Eurasian
                                    > Collared-Doves resembling African Collared-Doves, but
                                    > I was familiar with both of these species from the
                                    > Caribbean and I'm quite confident both are present in
                                    > the Napa Valley.
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