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RE: [CALBIRDS] Pictures of Mongolian/Vega Gull

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  • Alvaro Jaramillo
    Ron Unfortunately all is fair in war and gulls! One really has to consider all options, even hybrids. Also with regards to Vega Gulls (which I firmly believe
    Message 1 of 3 , Mar 10, 2007
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      Ron



      Unfortunately all is fair in war and gulls! One really has to consider
      all options, even hybrids. Also with regards to Vega Gulls (which I firmly
      believe are annual in our state) and Mongolian Gull we do need to have
      classic, or nearly classic individuals to convince skeptics. Eventually
      these will be CBRC review species, and when that happens there will be
      points which will kill some vegas that have been reported, including tails
      that are too dark.



      Thanks for posting these photos, I saw the originals from Brian Sullivan and
      asked if there were any spread tail shots. The spread tail shots are
      interesting, and they do not look good for Mongolian which should have a
      real narrow tail band (like a young Great Black-backed). It should also be
      neat, and sometimes showing narrow bands towards the base, the tail of this
      bird looks to have extensive dark and is messy. There are other oddities
      about this bird, including the "decomposed" look to the pattern of the
      tertials, and I think central tail feathers although this is difficult to
      assess from the photos. This is more akin to what you see on second cycle
      gulls, not first cycle gulls. When it does show up on first cycle birds (in
      my experience) it suggests a white-winged gull hybrid. The same goes for
      marbling in the inner primaries, which I don't think this bird has, but the
      right angle is not there to make sure. The shape of the primary tips is sort
      of intermediate between first and second cycle, although in the spread wing
      shots it shows real rounded primary tips (suggesting that this bird may be
      in the second cycle). A second cycle bird would explain the decomposed
      pattern on tertials and greater coverts, as well as the tail
      pattern.although that would not necessarily mean it is a Mongolian Gull. If
      a first cycle bird, the age of the upperpart (mantle, scapulars) and covert
      feathers seems to be about the same age, in other words it does not look
      like the bird has obviously newer upperparts which a Mongolian should have
      (replaces juvenile upperparts earlier than Vega, and often has an even and
      different look to the upperparts compared to the coverts). Although the
      strong white background color of Mongolian Gull feathers makes
      differentiating new and older feathers sometimes difficult. Putting it all
      together, I think is likely that this is a first cycle bird (White winged
      gulls, and their hybrids are often harder to age than dark gulls by the
      way), and if this is the case the pattern on the tail and tertials, as well
      as the messy looking pattern on wings suggests to me that this is a
      white-winged hybrid rather than a Mongolian Gull. I could be entirely wrong,
      and I am sure a lot of folks will disagree with this assessment, that's
      cool. I just wanted to send in my 2 cents. Photos of this bird should be
      sent to Asian gull experts, that is for sure!



      Vega vs. Mongolian: The bottom bird in the set below (the 2003 bird) I
      thought at the time could be pale enough to be a Mongolian Gull, but
      Japanese and Korean experts quickly confirmed that Mongolian is a much paler
      bird than this, and that this Half Moon Bay bird was clearly in the Vega
      Camp.



      http://www.birdsofchile.com/vega.htm



      For an excellent review of the identification of the "Herring Gull Complex"
      in Asia, do read this article:



      http://www.birdskorea.org/lwhgmon.asp



      good gulling



      Al



      Alvaro Jaramillo

      chucao@...

      Half Moon Bay, California



      Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide

      www.fieldguides.com

      _____

      From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of mr_storey
      Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 6:27 PM
      To: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [CALBIRDS] Pictures of Mongolian/Vega Gull



      Hi All,

      You can find pictures of the possible Mongolian Gull in Petaluma, CA,
      posted on my website at http://ronstorey.
      <http://ronstorey.com/Lucchesi/index.html> com/Lucchesi/index.html

      I sincerely believe this Gull is in a fact one of the two species that
      it has been identified as, as the two people whom have identified the
      Gull are a very reliable resource and much respected amongst the
      birding communities of North America.

      It seems to me that we should not question whether it is a hybrid of
      two North American Gulls, but whether it is a Vega Gull or a Mongolian
      Gull. I would think that the North American bird experts would
      consider the possibility. - Okay, I know that I put too much weight on
      the expert opinion, but this Gull looks too much like that of the
      Mongolian gull that I have found on the Internet to be a "hybrid".

      Disclaimer: I do not keep a literal life list, so this bird is not
      important to my adding a species to my life list. I am interested in
      learning about identifying species and hybrids.

      Ron Storey
      Petaluma, CA





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Eric Preston
      I ve posted some photos of this very interesting bird here: http://www.ericwpreston.com/VegaGull_1.html Peace, Eric Preston San Francisco, CA
      Message 2 of 3 , Mar 12, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        I've posted some photos of this very interesting bird here:

        http://www.ericwpreston.com/VegaGull_1.html

        Peace,
        Eric Preston
        San Francisco, CA
        eric@...

        On 3/10/07, Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao@...> wrote:
        >
        > Ron
        >
        > Unfortunately all is fair in war and gulls! One really has to consider
        > all options, even hybrids. Also with regards to Vega Gulls (which I firmly
        > believe are annual in our state) and Mongolian Gull we do need to have
        > classic, or nearly classic individuals to convince skeptics. Eventually
        > these will be CBRC review species, and when that happens there will be
        > points which will kill some vegas that have been reported, including tails
        > that are too dark.
        >
        > Thanks for posting these photos, I saw the originals from Brian Sullivan
        > and
        > asked if there were any spread tail shots. The spread tail shots are
        > interesting, and they do not look good for Mongolian which should have a
        > real narrow tail band (like a young Great Black-backed). It should also be
        > neat, and sometimes showing narrow bands towards the base, the tail of
        > this
        > bird looks to have extensive dark and is messy. There are other oddities
        > about this bird, including the "decomposed" look to the pattern of the
        > tertials, and I think central tail feathers although this is difficult to
        > assess from the photos. This is more akin to what you see on second cycle
        > gulls, not first cycle gulls. When it does show up on first cycle birds
        > (in
        > my experience) it suggests a white-winged gull hybrid. The same goes for
        > marbling in the inner primaries, which I don't think this bird has, but
        > the
        > right angle is not there to make sure. The shape of the primary tips is
        > sort
        > of intermediate between first and second cycle, although in the spread
        > wing
        > shots it shows real rounded primary tips (suggesting that this bird may be
        > in the second cycle). A second cycle bird would explain the decomposed
        > pattern on tertials and greater coverts, as well as the tail
        > pattern.although that would not necessarily mean it is a Mongolian Gull.
        > If
        > a first cycle bird, the age of the upperpart (mantle, scapulars) and
        > covert
        > feathers seems to be about the same age, in other words it does not look
        > like the bird has obviously newer upperparts which a Mongolian should have
        > (replaces juvenile upperparts earlier than Vega, and often has an even and
        > different look to the upperparts compared to the coverts). Although the
        > strong white background color of Mongolian Gull feathers makes
        > differentiating new and older feathers sometimes difficult. Putting it all
        > together, I think is likely that this is a first cycle bird (White winged
        > gulls, and their hybrids are often harder to age than dark gulls by the
        > way), and if this is the case the pattern on the tail and tertials, as
        > well
        > as the messy looking pattern on wings suggests to me that this is a
        > white-winged hybrid rather than a Mongolian Gull. I could be entirely
        > wrong,
        > and I am sure a lot of folks will disagree with this assessment, that's
        > cool. I just wanted to send in my 2 cents. Photos of this bird should be
        > sent to Asian gull experts, that is for sure!
        >
        > Vega vs. Mongolian: The bottom bird in the set below (the 2003 bird) I
        > thought at the time could be pale enough to be a Mongolian Gull, but
        > Japanese and Korean experts quickly confirmed that Mongolian is a much
        > paler
        > bird than this, and that this Half Moon Bay bird was clearly in the Vega
        > Camp.
        >
        > http://www.birdsofchile.com/vega.htm
        >
        > For an excellent review of the identification of the "Herring Gull
        > Complex"
        > in Asia, do read this article:
        >
        > http://www.birdskorea.org/lwhgmon.asp
        >
        > good gulling
        >
        > Al
        >
        > Alvaro Jaramillo
        >
        > chucao@... <chucao%40coastside.net>
        >
        > Half Moon Bay, California
        >
        > Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide
        >
        > www.fieldguides.com
        >
        > _____
        >
        > From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com <CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
        > CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com <CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
        > Of mr_storey
        > Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 6:27 PM
        > To: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com <CALBIRDS%40yahoogroups.com>
        > Subject: [CALBIRDS] Pictures of Mongolian/Vega Gull
        >
        > Hi All,
        >
        > You can find pictures of the possible Mongolian Gull in Petaluma, CA,
        > posted on my website at http://ronstorey.
        > <http://ronstorey.com/Lucchesi/index.html> com/Lucchesi/index.html
        >
        > I sincerely believe this Gull is in a fact one of the two species that
        > it has been identified as, as the two people whom have identified the
        > Gull are a very reliable resource and much respected amongst the
        > birding communities of North America.
        >
        > It seems to me that we should not question whether it is a hybrid of
        > two North American Gulls, but whether it is a Vega Gull or a Mongolian
        > Gull. I would think that the North American bird experts would
        > consider the possibility. - Okay, I know that I put too much weight on
        > the expert opinion, but this Gull looks too much like that of the
        > Mongolian gull that I have found on the Internet to be a "hybrid".
        >
        > Disclaimer: I do not keep a literal life list, so this bird is not
        > important to my adding a species to my life list. I am interested in
        > learning about identifying species and hybrids.
        >
        > Ron Storey
        > Petaluma, CA
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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