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Nutmeg Mannikin

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  • edaviddavis
    Nice surprise while birding the San Joaquin Santuary at the Irvine duck ponds: I noticed some small finch-like birds feeding in the bullrushes and thought they
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 12, 2006
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      Nice surprise while birding the San Joaquin Santuary at the Irvine
      duck ponds: I noticed some small finch-like birds feeding in the
      bullrushes and thought they had to be an exotic. A nice couple was
      there with a new National Geographic bird book, and sure enough, a new
      bird for me, the Nutmeg Mannikin.

      I had never even heard of them before. Are they fairly common in
      Southern California now?

      --David Davis, Los Angeles
    • Doug Shaw
      Hi David and All, Last I knew they had taken up residency at El Dorado Park in Huntington Beach near the pond. Good Birding, Doug Shaw Santa Rosa, CA ... From:
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 12, 2006
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        Hi David and All,

        Last I knew they had taken up residency at El Dorado Park in Huntington Beach near the pond.

        Good Birding,

        Doug Shaw
        Santa Rosa, CA
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: edaviddavis
        To: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 2:18 PM
        Subject: [CALBIRDS] Nutmeg Mannikin


        Nice surprise while birding the San Joaquin Santuary at the Irvine
        duck ponds: I noticed some small finch-like birds feeding in the
        bullrushes and thought they had to be an exotic. A nice couple was
        there with a new National Geographic bird book, and sure enough, a new
        bird for me, the Nutmeg Mannikin.

        I had never even heard of them before. Are they fairly common in
        Southern California now?

        --David Davis, Los Angeles










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      • Jim
        Here s link to 2 pix I made of same in Goleta (Santa Barbara County) earlier this winter, showing why they continue, and why we see young around here as well
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 12, 2006
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          Here's link to 2 pix I made of same in Goleta (Santa Barbara County)
          earlier this winter, showing why they continue, and why we see young
          around here as well -- mating in WINTER -- like the Rock Pigeons on
          nests at same time, no shame... (-:

          http://mysite.verizon.net/res1uzgs/NutmegMannikin.html

          Jim Greaves
          Santa Barbara CA

          At 04:46 PM 4/12/2006, Doug Shaw wrote:
          >Hi David and All,
          >
          > Last I knew they had taken up residency at El Dorado Park in
          > Huntington Beach near the pond.
          >
          >Good Birding,
          >
          >Doug Shaw
          >Santa Rosa, CA
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: edaviddavis
          > To: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 2:18 PM
          > Subject: [CALBIRDS] Nutmeg Mannikin
          >
          >
          > Nice surprise while birding the San Joaquin Santuary at the Irvine
          > duck ponds: I noticed some small finch-like birds feeding in the
          > bullrushes and thought they had to be an exotic. A nice couple was
          > there with a new National Geographic bird book, and sure enough, a new
          > bird for me, the Nutmeg Mannikin.
          >
          > I had never even heard of them before. Are they fairly common in
          > Southern California now?
          >
          > --David Davis, Los Angeles
        • Jim Greaves
          I just updated the page [below] to include photo made in fall 2005 of a juvenile from same Goleta area as the adults, so if you see these guys at your feeders,
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 13, 2006
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            I just updated the page [below] to include photo made in fall 2005 of
            a juvenile from same Goleta area as the adults, so if you see these
            guys at your feeders, you'll know there's likely breeding nearby!

            >El Dorado Park with the pond is in Long Beach, not Huntington Beach
            >and I live close to it and believe I have seen some of these birds
            >in my back yard feeders.
            >
            >Jim <lbvi.man@...> wrote:
            >
            >Here's link to 2 pix I made of same in Goleta (Santa Barbara County)
            >earlier this winter, showing why they continue, and why we see young
            >around here as well -- mating in WINTER -- like the Rock Pigeons on
            >nests at same time, no shame... (-:
            >
            ><http://mysite.verizon.net/res1uzgs/NutmegMannikin.html>http://mysite.verizon.net/res1uzgs/NutmegMannikin.html
            >
            >Jim Greaves
            >Santa Barbara CA


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Douglas Aguillard
            Haven t seen it officially announced yet, but just read on a BLOG, that the Nutmeg Mannikin has been added to the California State List by the CBRC (Bird
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 3, 2013
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              Haven't seen it officially announced yet, but just read on a BLOG, that the
              Nutmeg Mannikin has been added to the California State List by the CBRC
              (Bird Police).

              Doug Aguillard
              San Diego, CA
              dwaguillard@...


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Wim van Dam
              ... This seems to be indeed the case according to http://californiabirds.org/ChangeLog.html where it says: 27 August 2013: * Added Great Black-backed Gull
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 4, 2013
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                > Haven't seen it officially announced yet, but just read on a BLOG, that the
                > Nutmeg Mannikin has been added to the California State List by the CBRC
                > (Bird Police).

                This seems to be indeed the case according to http://californiabirds.org/ChangeLog.html where it says:
                27 August 2013:
                * Added Great Black-backed Gull Larus marinus to the main and review lists
                * Added Nutmeg Mannikin Lonchura punctulata to the main list with a code of "I"

                I never figured out if the rules of the game are that prior sightings are sufficient or if you have to see one after August 27 (the latter would make more sense to me).

                Wim van Dam (Solvang, CA)

                On 2013-09-03, at 23:29 , Douglas Aguillard <dwaguillard@...> wrote:

                > Haven't seen it officially announced yet, but just read on a BLOG, that the
                > Nutmeg Mannikin has been added to the California State List by the CBRC
                > (Bird Police).
                >
                > Doug Aguillard
                > San Diego, CA
                > dwaguillard@...
                >
              • Lori Conrad
                Hi, Please correct me if I m wrong, but even though it s been added to the state list, I believe that the code I still means that it s an introduced species
                Message 7 of 13 , Sep 4, 2013
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                  Hi,

                   

                  Please correct me if I'm wrong, but even though it's been added to the state list, I believe that the code "I" still means that it's an introduced species and therefore still not "countable" on your personal list. Is this correct?

                   

                  Lori Conrad

                  Hermosa Beach

                   

                  From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wim van Dam
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 8:04 AM
                  To: Douglas Aguillard; CALBIRDS; sbcobirding@yahoogroups.com Birding
                  Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] Nutmeg Mannikin

                   

                   

                  > Haven't seen it officially announced yet, but just read on a BLOG, that the

                  > Nutmeg Mannikin has been added to the California State List by the CBRC
                  > (Bird Police).

                  This seems to be indeed the case according to http://californiabirds.org/ChangeLog.html where it says:
                  27 August 2013:
                  * Added Great Black-backed Gull Larus marinus to the main and review lists
                  * Added Nutmeg Mannikin Lonchura punctulata to the main list with a code of "I"

                  I never figured out if the rules of the game are that prior sightings are sufficient or if you have to see one after August 27 (the latter would make more sense to me).

                  Wim van Dam (Solvang, CA)

                  On 2013-09-03, at 23:29 , Douglas Aguillard <dwaguillard@...> wrote:

                  > Haven't seen it officially announced yet, but just read on a BLOG, that the
                  > Nutmeg Mannikin has been added to the California State List by the CBRC
                  > (Bird Police).
                  >
                  > Doug Aguillard
                  > San Diego, CA
                  > dwaguillard@...
                  >

                • Jamie Chavez
                  It s personal choice. Many people do count introduces species. Some do not. -- Jamie Chavez Santa Maria, CA
                  Message 8 of 13 , Sep 4, 2013
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                    It's personal choice. Many people do count introduces species. Some do not.


                    -- 
                    Jamie Chavez
                    Santa Maria, CA


                    On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 9:53 AM, Lori Conrad <lconrad@...> wrote:
                     

                    Hi,

                     

                    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but even though it's been added to the state list, I believe that the code "I" still means that it's an introduced species and therefore still not "countable" on your personal list. Is this correct?

                     

                    Lori Conrad

                    Hermosa Beach



                  • coddlers
                    Hi Your personal list is your personal list, and nothing whatsoever to do with the California Records Committee Checklist - unless, of course, you choose to
                    Message 9 of 13 , Sep 4, 2013
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                      Hi
                       
                      Your personal list is your personal list, and nothing whatsoever to do with the California Records Committee Checklist - unless, of course, you choose to use that list as your basis. As several committee members have assured me over the years, they do not see themselves as list police, or the checklist as a personal list control.
                       
                      The "I" status merely notes that this species was introduced, nothing more.
                       
                      There is a minority subset of California birders who choose not the count any introduced species on their lists, but that again is a personal choice, not associated with any "rules". I understand that the California county list club operates like.
                       
                      The only "official" connection between a records committee checklist and personal lists that I am aware of is the ABA rule that says that one cannot count anything on a published ABA list, including the ABA California list, unless that species is on the ABA Checklist (with some additional honour-based guidelines for counting introduced species)
                       
                      Bruce Barrett
                      San Jose, CA
                       
                      In a message dated 04-Sep-13 9:53:54 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, lconrad@... writes:
                      Please correct me if I'm wrong, but even though it's been added to the state list, I believe that the code "I" still means that it's an introduced species and therefore still not "countable" on your personal list. Is this correct?
                    • Douglas Aguillard
                      My understanding of the ABA, is they will not put a species on their list until a State Committee like the CBRC puts it on their list. Doug Aguillard San
                      Message 10 of 13 , Sep 4, 2013
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                        My understanding of the ABA, is they will not put a species on their list until a State Committee like the CBRC puts it on their list.
                         
                        Doug Aguillard
                        San Diego, CA
                        On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 11:10 AM, <Coddlers@...> wrote:
                        Hi
                         
                        Your personal list is your personal list, and nothing whatsoever to do with the California Records Committee Checklist - unless, of course, you choose to use that list as your basis. As several committee members have assured me over the years, they do not see themselves as list police, or the checklist as a personal list control.
                         
                        The "I" status merely notes that this species was introduced, nothing more.
                         
                        There is a minority subset of California birders who choose not the count any introduced species on their lists, but that again is a personal choice, not associated with any "rules". I understand that the California county list club operates like.
                         
                        The only "official" connection between a records committee checklist and personal lists that I am aware of is the ABA rule that says that one cannot count anything on a published ABA list, including the ABA California list, unless that species is on the ABA Checklist (with some additional honour-based guidelines for counting introduced species)
                         
                        Bruce Barrett
                        San Jose, CA
                         
                        In a message dated 04-Sep-13 9:53:54 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, lconrad@... writes:
                        Please correct me if I'm wrong, but even though it's been added to the state list, I believe that the code "I" still means that it's an introduced species and therefore still not "countable" on your personal list. Is this correct?



                        --
                        Doug Aguillard
                        Photojournalist
                        San Diego, CA
                         
                      • coddlers
                        The ABA rules do allow them to add a species to the ABA checklist without the state committee adding it first, but they are reluctant to do so, if only to
                        Message 11 of 13 , Sep 4, 2013
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                          The ABA rules do allow them to add a species to the ABA checklist without the state committee adding it first, but they are reluctant to do so, if only to avoid unpleasantness.
                           
                          I'm not sure, but I think the ABA added Swallow-tailed Gull even though CA had specifically rejected it. (The CA committee has, of course, reversed themselves).
                           
                          Bruce Barrett
                          San Jose, CA
                           
                          In a message dated 04-Sep-13 11:41:07 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, dwaguillard@... writes:
                          My understanding of the ABA, is they will not put a species on their list until a State Committee like the CBRC puts it on their list.
                        • Kimball Garrett
                          Doug, This is correct, which is why the ABA-CLC did not take up the addition of Nutmeg Mannikin to the ABA list until the CBRC added the species to the
                          Message 12 of 13 , Sep 4, 2013
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                            Doug,

                             

                            This is correct, which is why the ABA-CLC did not take up the addition of Nutmeg Mannikin to the ABA list until the CBRC added the species to the California list last month.  The addition of mannikin to the ABA list is currently being voted on, and early exit polls seem quite favorable to those who would like to see mannikin on the ABA list.

                             

                            Once the ABA accepts Nutmeg Mannikin to its list, there will clearly be questions about where the species is “countable.”  There are sizeable populations around Houston, Texas, and locally on the Gulf Coast from se. Mississippi east to the Florida Panhandle; I don’t think any of those states have yet added the mannikin to their state lists.  Within California, mannikins are clearly well-established from San Luis Obispo County south to the Mexican border and inland to western San Bernardino and Riverside Counties.  However, populations in the south San Francisco Bay are small and apparently not growing significantly, and only a handful of sightings have been reported from elsewhere in the state.  My guess is that a good rule of thumb is that mannikins would be “countable” in California only in SLO, SBA, VEN, LA, ORA, SD, SBE and RIV counties – but possibly also in Santa Clara (and with question marks for San Mateo, Alameda, San Joaquin and Sacramento Counties and perhaps others).

                             

                            Kimball

                             

                            Kimball L. Garrett

                            Ornithology Collections Manager

                            Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County

                            900 Exposition Blvd.

                            Los Angeles, CA 90007 USA

                            213-763-3368

                            kgarrett@...

                            http://www.nhm.org/site/research-collections/ornithology

                             

                            From: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Aguillard
                            Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 11:41 AM
                            To: Coddlers@...; Calbirds@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] Nutmeg Mannikin

                             

                            My understanding of the ABA, is they will not put a species on their list until a State Committee like the CBRC puts it on their list.

                             

                            Doug Aguillard

                            San Diego, CA

                          • coddlers
                            Kimball, Doug As I understand it, although the ABA may delay considering a species until at least one state has added it, once the species is on the ABA list,
                            Message 13 of 13 , Sep 4, 2013
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                              Kimball, Doug
                               
                              As I understand it, although the ABA may delay considering a species until at least one state has added it, once the species is on the ABA list, one may count it anywhere in the ABA area IF one is personally convinced that it meets ABA rules for introduced species, regardless of whether the local and/or state committee has even considered it. Whether or not to count it becomes a question of personal integrity rather than rules (which is consistent with state committees not being list police.)
                               
                              Bruce Barrett
                              San Jose, CA
                               
                              In a message dated 04-Sep-13 12:06:37 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, kgarrett@... writes:
                              Once the ABA accepts Nutmeg Mannikin to its list, there will clearly be questions about where the species is “countable.”  There are sizeable populations around Houston, Texas, and locally on the Gulf Coast from se. Mississippi east to the Florida Panhandle; I don’t think any of those states have yet added the mannikin to their state lists.  Within California, mannikins are clearly well-established from San Luis Obispo County south to the Mexican border and inland to western San Bernardino and Riverside Counties.  However, populations in the south San Francisco Bay are small and apparently not growing significantly, and only a handful of sightings have been reported from elsewhere in the state.  My guess is that a good rule of thumb is that mannikins would be “countable” in California only in SLO, SBA, VEN, LA, ORA, SD, SBE and RIV counties – but possibly also in Santa Clara (and with question marks for San Mateo, Alameda, San Joaquin and Sacramento Counties and perhaps others).
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