Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [CALBIRDS] "birdwatchers are the worst"

Expand Messages
  • Lidia Seebeck
    If we birders are getting so close as to scare the pants (I assume he meant covert feathers) off of wrens, Then we re not using the right optics. Gods,
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 16, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      If we birders are getting so close as to scare the "pants" (I assume he meant covert feathers) off of wrens, Then we're not using the right optics. Gods, haven't they ever heard the words "spotting scope"? I swear they write with crayons over there at the Times.

      Seriously, my experience is that most birders have at least a passing acquaintance (and usually more than that) with ecology and know to keep their distance from sheep and such. It sounds like the Palm Springs officials are wanting to scapegoat someone, anyone, for a reason they're not saying publicly. Dog walkers probably do more to scare the sheep, but scapegoating them is not an option. It's probably ditto with other users (joggers with music, whatever) So they go to a group that is not politically powerful. Us.
      Lidia Seebeck
      Riverside
      lidia@...
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Thomas Miko
      To: calbirds@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: cjacobs@...
      Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 10:59 AM
      Subject: [CALBIRDS] "birdwatchers are the worst"


      Well, at least that's what today's Los Angeles Times informed me of on page F3 of the outdoors section, at the end of an article about how Palm Springs area governmental agencies seek to reduce the number of hikers on trails during Bighorn Sheeps' breeding season. The last sentence of the article explained how "tiny little wrens" are terrified by binocular lenses that they think are the eyes of a monstrously oversized predator, so we birders are scaring the pants off of those poor little birdies.

      Discuss.

      Thomas Miko (Mikó Tamás)

      thomas.miko@...
      thomas_miko@...

      653 S. Indian Hill Blvd., #C
      Claremont, CA 91711
      U.S.A.
      34.109167 N, 117.718293 W

      home: (909) 445-1456
      page: (310) 366-9990
      cell: (626) 390-1935

      FRS radio channel 11 code 22

      thomas_miko@...

      http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/birdsofhungary



      Unsubscribe: mailto:CALBIRDS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      Website: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CALBIRDS
      Listowners: mailto:CALBIRDS-owner@yahoogroups.com

      For vacation suspension of mail go to the website. Click on Edit My Membership and set your mail option to No Email. Or, send a blank email to these addresses:
      Turn off email delivery: mailto:CALBIRDS-nomail@yahoogroups.com
      Resume email delivery: mailto:CALBIRDS-normal@yahoogroups.com




      Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      ADVERTISEMENT





      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Yahoo! Groups Links

      a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CALBIRDS/

      b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      CALBIRDS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

      c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Kimball Garrett
      Birders: Here is the offending phrase from the L. A. Times: For instance, to a tiny wren, binocular lenses look like the eyes of an unspeakable predator, says
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 16, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        Birders:

        Here is the offending phrase from the L. A. Times:

        "For instance, to a tiny wren, binocular lenses look like the eyes of an
        unspeakable predator, says Tracy Albrecht, interpretive specialist for
        the Santa Rosa and San Jacinto Mountains National Monument. So forget
        the big-footed hikers. When it comes to spooking wildlife, Albrecht
        says: "The bird-watchers are the worst."

        A couple of thoughts....

        First, don't blame the L. A. Times, Lidia. The author was simply
        quoting an "interpretive specialist."

        Second, I am not aware of any behavioral studies that support the absurd
        suggestion that birders terrify wrens (etc.) by looking at them through
        binoculars. Sometimes we birders are tempted to believe that binoculars
        scare birds because birds sometimes fly off as soon as we get them in
        our bins. I don't know what kind of bad experiences this "interpretive
        specialist" has had with birders, but her "big-eyed" hypothesis is
        small-brained at best. To see what really terrifies birds, why not look
        at another article in the Outdoors section about the Baja road race!

        Finally, this whole "protection" initiative for Bighorns is being
        spearheaded by the Coachella Valley Association of Governments. If any
        of you have looked at what has happened to the Coachella Valley in the
        last couple of decades, with wholesale conversion of natural desert
        habitats to golf courses, car dealerships, condos, artificial lakes,
        casinos, etc., it is clear that there is no true governmental will in
        that area to protect wildlife and habitats..... until now, that is, when
        "multispecies conservation planning" will allow continued development in
        exchange for some token protections.

        Grumpily,

        Kimball

        Kimball L. Garrett
        Ornithology Collections Manager
        Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County
        900 Exposition Blvd.
        Los Angeles CA 90007
        (213) 763-3368
        (213) 746-2999 FAX
        kgarrett@...
      • Douglas Shaw
        ... From: Kimball Garrett To: calbirds@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 11:35 AM Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] birdwatchers are the worst Hi All,
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 16, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Kimball Garrett
          To: calbirds@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 11:35 AM
          Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] "birdwatchers are the worst"



          Hi All,

          Back in my college days I studied Environmental Interpretation as my main subject within my major of Recreation Administration. I am shocked that anyone in that field would make the type of comments that Tracy made. I hope her supervisor sees the article and straightens her out. Any good Interpretive Specialist should realize that the worst offenders to wildlife are dog walkers ( particulary those unleashed dogs in sensative habitats ) and the owners don't give a hoot when you try to explain to them the consequences of their actions. Mountain bikers on illegal and closed trails are also a major problem. I have many civil words with such people and I only get a favorable response about 30% of the time.
          Environmental Interpreters and planners are trained about the various user groups and how to keep them all happy. Many compromises need to be made such as right-a-way on trails between hikers, horses, and bicycles. A pair of binoculars should be a lot less frightening to a " wren " than the other types of trail users. I can see where a spotting scope might scare some waterfowl thinking it is a gun.
          There is an excellent textbook by Sharpe on environmental Interpretation that would be good reading for Tracy. She definitely needs a lesson in Public Relations. Maybe one of the local Audubon Chapters could send a letter of protest to her supervisor?
          Sincerely,
          Doug Shaw
          Santa Rosa, CA



          Unsubscribe: mailto:CALBIRDS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          Website: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CALBIRDS
          Listowners: mailto:CALBIRDS-owner@yahoogroups.com

          For vacation suspension of mail go to the website. Click on Edit My Membership and set your mail option to No Email. Or, send a blank email to these addresses:
          Turn off email delivery: mailto:CALBIRDS-nomail@yahoogroups.com
          Resume email delivery: mailto:CALBIRDS-normal@yahoogroups.com





          Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          ADVERTISEMENT





          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Yahoo! Groups Links

          a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CALBIRDS/

          b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          CALBIRDS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Chuck & Lillian
          Tamas, I have experienced looking around thru binos and coming upon a bird watching me and which then immediately flies off. It s primarily with raptors such
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 16, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Tamas,
            I have experienced looking around thru binos and coming upon a bird watching me and which then immediately flies off. It's primarily with raptors such as Cooper's or Sharp-shinned Hawk. I think they don't like being looked at, but I don't think they're going off to die in privacy of an apoplectic fit. Just moving elsewhere, often not very far. Crows, jays and Mockingbirds seem to welcome the challenge, and sometimes stare right back, looking far more intimidating than I ever will. Smaller passerines - in my recollection - mostly can't care less about me as long as I don't make any sudden moves towards them. But in any group of otherwise similar organisms, including and especially people, some are always more jumpy than others.
            So, generally speaking, the comment was mostly inaccurate and probably intended to irritate birders or at least poke them with a gentle, joshing finger in the ribs, ho ho ho, and also to amuse and misinform the mostly ignorant wider public.
            Chuck Almdale
            Santa Monica, CA
            misclists@...
            *************************
            At 12:59 PM 11/16/2004 -0600, Thomas Miko wrote:
            > Well, at least that's what today's Los Angeles Times informed me of on page F3 of the outdoors section, at the end of an article about how Palm Springs area governmental agencies seek to reduce the number of hikers on trails during Bighorn Sheeps' breeding season. The last sentence of the article explained how "tiny little wrens" are terrified by binocular lenses that they think are the eyes of a monstrously oversized predator, so we birders are scaring the pants off of those poor little birdies.
            >Discuss.

            ----------


            ---
            Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
            Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
            Version: 6.0.797 / Virus Database: 541 - Release Date: 11/15/2004


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Nathaniel Wander
            People who live in optical housings shouldn t throw stones. While the binoculars = big eyes explanation may be a lot of hooey, we all know that just turning
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 16, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              People who live in optical housings shouldn't throw stones.

              While the "binoculars = big eyes" explanation may be a lot of hooey, we all
              know that just turning towards a bird, let alone looking at it intensely
              can disturb it. Of course, it all depends on the species, habitat, season,
              bird's activity at the time, etc., etc., etc.

              And while we are hardly "the worst," its flat out dishonest to pretend that
              our "hunting" and "staring" has no impact on birds at all, let alone that,
              it might not seriously compromise an already overstressed creature. Like
              when some poor off-course vagrant is "pounded" by every chaser in a
              thousand-mile radius.

              While most birders I know seem to be trying to behave as decently as
              possible, neither is any of us necessarily more immune to the close-minded
              selfishness some attribute to dog owners. Remember the eye-motes and
              eye-beams.

              Nathaniel Wander
              San Francisco
            • Douglas Shaw
              ... From: Nathaniel Wander To: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 12:36 PM Subject: [CALBIRDS] RE: birdwatchers are the worst Hi,
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 16, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Nathaniel Wander
                To: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 12:36 PM
                Subject: [CALBIRDS] RE: "birdwatchers are the worst"

                Hi,

                Please see ittalized comments below.


                People who live in optical housings shouldn't throw stones.

                While the "binoculars = big eyes" explanation may be a lot of hooey, we all
                know that just turning towards a bird, let alone looking at it intensely
                can disturb it. Of course, it all depends on the species, habitat, season,
                bird's activity at the time, etc., etc., etc.
                Researchers use binoculars, scopes, band birds, and invade their nests. All of these activities benefit the birds in the long run.


                And while we are hardly "the worst," its flat out dishonest to pretend that
                our "hunting" and "staring" has no impact on birds at all, let alone that,
                it might not seriously compromise an already overstressed creature. Like
                when some poor off-course vagrant is "pounded" by every chaser in a
                thousand-mile radius.

                I hope most birders are aware of birding ethics. Unforunately there have been major exceptions that is another topic.

                While most birders I know seem to be trying to behave as decently as
                possible, neither is any of us necessarily more immune to the close-minded
                selfishness some attribute to dog owners. Remember the eye-motes and
                eye-beams.

                How about the dog owners in San Francisco that encourage their dogs to run in the marsh lands at Crissy Field ? Correct me if I have the location wrong. I read several posts in recent years about those dog owners in SF.

                Doug Shaw
                Santa Rosa, CA




                Unsubscribe: mailto:CALBIRDS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                Website: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CALBIRDS
                Listowners: mailto:CALBIRDS-owner@yahoogroups.com

                For vacation suspension of mail go to the website. Click on Edit My Membership and set your mail option to No Email. Or, send a blank email to these addresses:
                Turn off email delivery: mailto:CALBIRDS-nomail@yahoogroups.com
                Resume email delivery: mailto:CALBIRDS-normal@yahoogroups.com





                Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

                Get unlimited calls to

                U.S./Canada




                ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Yahoo! Groups Links

                a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CALBIRDS/

                b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                CALBIRDS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Steve Sosensky
                Okay, CalBirders, Before this becomes a flame war, I m closing the thread. The effects of birding and birders on birds is not strictly a California issue, and
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 16, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  Okay, CalBirders,

                  Before this becomes a flame war, I'm closing the thread. The effects of
                  birding and birders on birds is not strictly a California issue, and is
                  more suited to BirdChat if that list will tolerate it. For those of you who
                  feel strongly on this issue, I suggest writing to the LA Times Outdoors
                  section <mailto:outdoors@...> and Tracy Albrecht's supervisors.

                  At 01:17 PM 2004-11-16 -0800, Douglas Shaw wrote:


                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Nathaniel Wander
                  > To: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 12:36 PM
                  > Subject: [CALBIRDS] RE: "birdwatchers are the worst"
                  >
                  > Hi,
                  >
                  > Please see ittalized comments below.
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  Good birding,
                  Steve Sosensky
                  Toluca Lake, CA 34.15645 N, 118.36715 W
                  <mailto:steve@...> for general use
                  <mailto:mobile@...> for rare birds and emergencies only
                  Co-listowner, Calbirds http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calbirds

                  Unsubscribe: mailto:CALBIRDS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  Website: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CALBIRDS
                  Listowners: mailto:CALBIRDS-owner@yahoogroups.com

                  For vacation suspension of mail go to the website. Click on Edit My
                  Membership and set your mail option to No Email. Or, send a blank email to
                  these addresses:
                  Turn off email delivery: mailto:CALBIRDS-nomail@yahoogroups.com
                  Resume email delivery: mailto:CALBIRDS-normal@yahoogroups.com
                • MiriamEagl@aol.com
                  Hi, all! In a message dated 11/16/2004 11:58:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, kgarrett@nhm.org writes: Second, I am not aware of any behavioral studies that
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 17, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi, all!

                    In a message dated 11/16/2004 11:58:45 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                    kgarrett@... writes:

                    Second, I am not aware of any behavioral studies that support the absurd
                    suggestion that birders terrify wrens (etc.) by looking at them through
                    binoculars. Sometimes we birders are tempted to believe that binoculars
                    scare birds because birds sometimes fly off as soon as we get them in
                    our bins.


                    Maybe this has been addressed already, but a guide on a tour to Venezuela
                    (who was using a Questar) says that sometimes the sun will reflect in the lens
                    and flash in such a way that it startles the bird, so I wouldn't be surprised
                    if that's what happens a lot (but I wouldn't think that qualifies as "scaring
                    the pants" off the birds).

                    Mary Beth Stowe
                    San Diego, CA
                    MiriamEagl@...
                    _www.miriameaglemon.com_ (http://www.miriameaglemon.com)




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Steve Sosensky
                    Calbirders, This thread is still closed. Anyone posting to it will be set to moderated status. It is always best to read a thread through before responding to
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 17, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Calbirders,

                      This thread is still closed. Anyone posting to it will be set to moderated
                      status. It is always best to read a thread through before responding to it.
                      This eliminates the potential for increased duplication of responses, or as
                      in this case, posting to a closed thread.

                      At 10:11 am 2004-11-17 -0500, miriameagl@... wrote:
                      maybe this has been addressed already,



                      Good birding,
                      Steve Sosensky
                      Toluca Lake, CA 34.15645 N, 118.36715 W
                      <mailto:steve@...> for general use
                      <mailto:mobile@...> for rare birds and emergencies only
                      co-listowner, calbirds http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calbirds

                      unsubscribe: mailto:calbirds-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      website: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calbirds
                      listowners: mailto:calbirds-owner@yahoogroups.com

                      For vacation suspension of mail go to the website. Click on edit my
                      membership and set your mail option to no email. Or, send a blank email to
                      these addresses:
                      turn off email delivery: mailto:calbirds-nomail@yahoogroups.com
                      resume email delivery: mailto:calbirds-normal@yahoogroups.com
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.