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RE: [CALBIRDS] Case of the drunken Ibis

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  • James F. Holmes
    Hyperventilation causes a decrease in arterial carbon dioxide concentration. This in turn causes cerebrovasoconstriction and a reduction of blood flow to the
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 5, 2004
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      Hyperventilation causes a decrease in arterial carbon dioxide concentration.
      This in turn causes cerebrovasoconstriction and a reduction of blood flow to
      the brain. Hyperventilation was once a standard therapy for patients with
      significant traumatic brain injury because it caused cerebrovasoconstriction
      and reduced the amount of blood flow to the injured brain. Blood flow to
      the brain could be decreased by 30% with severe hyperventilation of these
      patients. We thought that less blood to the brain would result in lowering
      intracranial pressure (which is your goal in patients with bad head
      injuries). We have subsequently learned that the problems with
      hyperventilation are worse than the benefits and it is no longer routinely
      used as first line therapy in patients with traumatic brain injuries.



      We know this for a fact in humans and dogs (since a lot of the research has
      been done in those animals). I am not sure about Ibis, but would assume the
      physiology is the same.



      James F. Holmes, MD, MPH

      Associate Professor

      Department of Emergency Medicine

      UC Davis School of Medicine



      office: (916) 734-1533

      pager: (916) 762-1208

      fax: (916) 734-7950

      email: jfholmes@...





      -----Original Message-----
      From: OrCoRBA [mailto:orcorba@...]
      Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 8:51 PM
      To: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com; HeraldPetrel@...; Nathaniel Wander
      Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] Case of the drunken Ibis



      I don't want to lead this discussion on a tangent, but I don't think your

      explanation that "prolonged panting in people reduces blood flow to the

      brain, which primes them for bad decision making" is correct. Not sure

      about "prolonged" but hyperventilation in humans drives out carbon dioxide

      and shifts the oxygen dissociation curve of the blood to the right. What

      that means is that the red blood cells hold on to more oxygen than usual

      under these more basic (versus acidic) blood conditions during

      hyperventilation, and the brain, which needs high amounts of oxygen, cannot

      function and the person gets faint or light-headed or does faint. I've not

      seen before any mention of blood flow being reduced to the brain in this

      situation. As an example, that's why pregnant women using breathing

      exercises during labor are told to breathe into a paper bag so that they

      don't lose the carbon dioxide and thus they cut down on the

      giddiness/faintness of the rapid breathing.

      Joel Weintraub












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    • Debbie Viess
      Sounds like some sort of toxic effect to me. According to the description, the birds were showing no sign of heat stress. Besides, birds are pre-adapted to
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 5, 2004
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        Sounds like some sort of toxic effect to me. According to the
        description, the birds were showing no sign of heat stress. Besides,
        birds are pre-adapted to tolerate high temperatures. And a lack of
        carcasses doesn't necessarily mean that there was no mortality;
        predators/scavengers are quite efficient, and work under cover of
        darkness.

        Mercury poisoning is a possibility.it can cause ataxia, or a loss of
        coordination, and high concentrations of mercury are rampant in fish
        populations. The Birders Handbook lists pesticides and herbicides as a
        threat to the white faced ibis population in the LA area; who knows what
        sort of chemical stew is being used on the rice fields down there?

        As for me, think I'll skip the tuna salad,

        Debbie Viess
        Oakland




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bruce Deuel
        I think some folks are misinterpreting the evidence. These birds recovered and began acting normally. Would this occur with either disease or toxins? Cheers,
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 5, 2004
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          I think some folks are misinterpreting the evidence. These birds
          recovered and began acting normally. Would this occur with either
          disease or toxins?

          Cheers,
          Bruce Deuel
          Redding

          >>> "Debbie Viess" <amanitarita@...> 8/5/2004 1:42:05 PM
          >>>
          Sounds like some sort of toxic effect to me. According to the
          description, the birds were showing no sign of heat stress. Besides,
          birds are pre-adapted to tolerate high temperatures. And a lack of
          carcasses doesn't necessarily mean that there was no mortality;
          predators/scavengers are quite efficient, and work under cover of
          darkness.

          Mercury poisoning is a possibility.it can cause ataxia, or a loss of
          coordination, and high concentrations of mercury are rampant in fish
          populations. The Birders Handbook lists pesticides and herbicides as a
          threat to the white faced ibis population in the LA area; who knows
          what
          sort of chemical stew is being used on the rice fields down there?

          As for me, think I'll skip the tuna salad,

          Debbie Viess
          Oakland




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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        • Thomas Miko
          Please keep in mind birds unique respiratory system among vertebrates: where they always have fresh air moving through the lungs in one direction. Kimball
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 5, 2004
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            Please keep in mind birds' unique respiratory system among vertebrates: where they always have fresh air moving through the lungs in one direction.
            Kimball Garrett or Dr Cathy Jacobs or Dr Joel Weintraub may have something to add (I don't know how this difference in "plumbing" i.e. ventilation may or may not affect blood CO2 levels, which could be neutralized by equally elevated O2 levels). Cathy teaches vertebrate physiology at CSUDH.

            Thomas Miko

            LAC-USC Medical Center
            Department of Nucear Medicine
            Room 5200


            >
            > From: "James F. Holmes" <jfholmes@...>
            > Date: 2004/08/05 Thu AM 10:41:16 CDT
            > To: "'OrCoRBA'" <orcorba@...>,
            > "Calbird \(Calbird\)" <CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com>
            > Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] Case of the drunken Ibis
            >
            > Hyperventilation causes a decrease in arterial carbon dioxide concentration.
            > This in turn causes cerebrovasoconstriction and a reduction of blood flow to
            > the brain. Hyperventilation was once a standard therapy for patients with
            > significant traumatic brain injury because it caused cerebrovasoconstriction
            > and reduced the amount of blood flow to the injured brain. Blood flow to
            > the brain could be decreased by 30% with severe hyperventilation of these
            > patients. We thought that less blood to the brain would result in lowering
            > intracranial pressure (which is your goal in patients with bad head
            > injuries). We have subsequently learned that the problems with
            > hyperventilation are worse than the benefits and it is no longer routinely
            > used as first line therapy in patients with traumatic brain injuries.
            >
            >
            >
            > We know this for a fact in humans and dogs (since a lot of the research has
            > been done in those animals). I am not sure about Ibis, but would assume the
            > physiology is the same.
            >
            >
            >
            > James F. Holmes, MD, MPH
            >
            > Associate Professor
            >
            > Department of Emergency Medicine
            >
            > UC Davis School of Medicine
            >
            >
            >
            > office: (916) 734-1533
            >
            > pager: (916) 762-1208
            >
            > fax: (916) 734-7950
            >
            > email: jfholmes@...
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: OrCoRBA [mailto:orcorba@...]
            > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 8:51 PM
            > To: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com; HeraldPetrel@...; Nathaniel Wander
            > Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] Case of the drunken Ibis
            >
            >
            >
            > I don't want to lead this discussion on a tangent, but I don't think your
            >
            > explanation that "prolonged panting in people reduces blood flow to the
            >
            > brain, which primes them for bad decision making" is correct. Not sure
            >
            > about "prolonged" but hyperventilation in humans drives out carbon dioxide
            >
            > and shifts the oxygen dissociation curve of the blood to the right. What
            >
            > that means is that the red blood cells hold on to more oxygen than usual
            >
            > under these more basic (versus acidic) blood conditions during
            >
            > hyperventilation, and the brain, which needs high amounts of oxygen, cannot
            >
            > function and the person gets faint or light-headed or does faint. I've not
            >
            > seen before any mention of blood flow being reduced to the brain in this
            >
            > situation. As an example, that's why pregnant women using breathing
            >
            > exercises during labor are told to breathe into a paper bag so that they
            >
            > don't lose the carbon dioxide and thus they cut down on the
            >
            > giddiness/faintness of the rapid breathing.
            >
            > Joel Weintraub
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Unsubscribe: mailto:CALBIRDS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
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            >
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            >
            >
            >
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            > Membership and set your mail option to No Email. Or, send a blank email to
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            >
            >
            >
            >
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            >
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CALBIRDS/
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            >
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            >
            >
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
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            Thomas Miko (Mikó Tamás)

            thomas.miko@...
            thomas_miko@...

            653 S. Indian Hill Blvd., #C
            Claremont, CA 91711
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          • Debbie Viess
            I spent an unseasonably warm and sunny day yesterday
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 16, 2004
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              <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=group
              s/S=:HM/A=2128215/rand=294361664>
              I spent an unseasonably warm and sunny day yesterday at the San Mateo
              Coast, near Pescadero. It was a minus tide, and there was plenty of
              newly exposed territory for the local animals to explore. The dark
              rocks, festooned with mussels, barnacles and many varieties of seaweed,
              nicely set off the beauty of the birds. Of note was a handsome surfbird,
              with mere vestiges of breeding plumage remaining, and a family group of
              Black Oystercatchers, with the adults dropping food on the rocks for
              their two submissive, begging youngsters. Upon closer examination, I
              noticed that the bills of the young oystercatchers were shorter than
              those of their parents, and had black tips. There were plenty of rafting
              Western grebes, the handsome and easily IDed Heerman's gull, his red
              bill contrasting with his dark gray back, black turnstones, busily
              poking amongst the kelp, battalions of brown pelicans flying over, and
              an unidentified small, dark alcid floating out beyond the rocks: no
              scope, no ID. Taking advantage of the increased offshore real estate was
              the largest haul-out of harbor seals that I'd ever seen at that
              location.at least 100 animals, mostly adults, with varied pelage and in
              apparently fine fettle. Two pairs frolicked in the water nearby, doing
              their bit to increase the numbers of young seals come next spring. They
              looked blissful. Back on shore, I was feeling pretty blissful myself, an
              awestruck witness to a slice of California paradise.

              Debbie Viess
              Oakland, CA


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