Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [CALBIRDS] Case of the drunken Ibis

Expand Messages
  • OrCoRBA
    I don t want to lead this discussion on a tangent, but I don t think your explanation that prolonged panting in people reduces blood flow to the brain, which
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 4, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      I don't want to lead this discussion on a tangent, but I don't think your
      explanation that "prolonged panting in people reduces blood flow to the
      brain, which primes them for bad decision making" is correct. Not sure
      about "prolonged" but hyperventilation in humans drives out carbon dioxide
      and shifts the oxygen dissociation curve of the blood to the right. What
      that means is that the red blood cells hold on to more oxygen than usual
      under these more basic (versus acidic) blood conditions during
      hyperventilation, and the brain, which needs high amounts of oxygen, cannot
      function and the person gets faint or light-headed or does faint. I've not
      seen before any mention of blood flow being reduced to the brain in this
      situation. As an example, that's why pregnant women using breathing
      exercises during labor are told to breathe into a paper bag so that they
      don't lose the carbon dioxide and thus they cut down on the
      giddiness/faintness of the rapid breathing.
      Joel Weintraub
    • James F. Holmes
      Hyperventilation causes a decrease in arterial carbon dioxide concentration. This in turn causes cerebrovasoconstriction and a reduction of blood flow to the
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 5, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        Hyperventilation causes a decrease in arterial carbon dioxide concentration.
        This in turn causes cerebrovasoconstriction and a reduction of blood flow to
        the brain. Hyperventilation was once a standard therapy for patients with
        significant traumatic brain injury because it caused cerebrovasoconstriction
        and reduced the amount of blood flow to the injured brain. Blood flow to
        the brain could be decreased by 30% with severe hyperventilation of these
        patients. We thought that less blood to the brain would result in lowering
        intracranial pressure (which is your goal in patients with bad head
        injuries). We have subsequently learned that the problems with
        hyperventilation are worse than the benefits and it is no longer routinely
        used as first line therapy in patients with traumatic brain injuries.



        We know this for a fact in humans and dogs (since a lot of the research has
        been done in those animals). I am not sure about Ibis, but would assume the
        physiology is the same.



        James F. Holmes, MD, MPH

        Associate Professor

        Department of Emergency Medicine

        UC Davis School of Medicine



        office: (916) 734-1533

        pager: (916) 762-1208

        fax: (916) 734-7950

        email: jfholmes@...





        -----Original Message-----
        From: OrCoRBA [mailto:orcorba@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 8:51 PM
        To: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com; HeraldPetrel@...; Nathaniel Wander
        Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] Case of the drunken Ibis



        I don't want to lead this discussion on a tangent, but I don't think your

        explanation that "prolonged panting in people reduces blood flow to the

        brain, which primes them for bad decision making" is correct. Not sure

        about "prolonged" but hyperventilation in humans drives out carbon dioxide

        and shifts the oxygen dissociation curve of the blood to the right. What

        that means is that the red blood cells hold on to more oxygen than usual

        under these more basic (versus acidic) blood conditions during

        hyperventilation, and the brain, which needs high amounts of oxygen, cannot

        function and the person gets faint or light-headed or does faint. I've not

        seen before any mention of blood flow being reduced to the brain in this

        situation. As an example, that's why pregnant women using breathing

        exercises during labor are told to breathe into a paper bag so that they

        don't lose the carbon dioxide and thus they cut down on the

        giddiness/faintness of the rapid breathing.

        Joel Weintraub












        Unsubscribe: mailto:CALBIRDS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        Website: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CALBIRDS

        Listowners: mailto:CALBIRDS-owner@yahoogroups.com



        For vacation suspension of mail go to the website. Click on Edit My
        Membership and set your mail option to No Email. Or, send a blank email to
        these addresses:

        Turn off email delivery: mailto:CALBIRDS-nomail@yahoogroups.com

        Resume email delivery: mailto:CALBIRDS-normal@yahoogroups.com





        Yahoo! Groups Links



        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CALBIRDS/



        CALBIRDS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Debbie Viess
        Sounds like some sort of toxic effect to me. According to the description, the birds were showing no sign of heat stress. Besides, birds are pre-adapted to
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 5, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          Sounds like some sort of toxic effect to me. According to the
          description, the birds were showing no sign of heat stress. Besides,
          birds are pre-adapted to tolerate high temperatures. And a lack of
          carcasses doesn't necessarily mean that there was no mortality;
          predators/scavengers are quite efficient, and work under cover of
          darkness.

          Mercury poisoning is a possibility.it can cause ataxia, or a loss of
          coordination, and high concentrations of mercury are rampant in fish
          populations. The Birders Handbook lists pesticides and herbicides as a
          threat to the white faced ibis population in the LA area; who knows what
          sort of chemical stew is being used on the rice fields down there?

          As for me, think I'll skip the tuna salad,

          Debbie Viess
          Oakland




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Bruce Deuel
          I think some folks are misinterpreting the evidence. These birds recovered and began acting normally. Would this occur with either disease or toxins? Cheers,
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 5, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            I think some folks are misinterpreting the evidence. These birds
            recovered and began acting normally. Would this occur with either
            disease or toxins?

            Cheers,
            Bruce Deuel
            Redding

            >>> "Debbie Viess" <amanitarita@...> 8/5/2004 1:42:05 PM
            >>>
            Sounds like some sort of toxic effect to me. According to the
            description, the birds were showing no sign of heat stress. Besides,
            birds are pre-adapted to tolerate high temperatures. And a lack of
            carcasses doesn't necessarily mean that there was no mortality;
            predators/scavengers are quite efficient, and work under cover of
            darkness.

            Mercury poisoning is a possibility.it can cause ataxia, or a loss of
            coordination, and high concentrations of mercury are rampant in fish
            populations. The Birders Handbook lists pesticides and herbicides as a
            threat to the white faced ibis population in the LA area; who knows
            what
            sort of chemical stew is being used on the rice fields down there?

            As for me, think I'll skip the tuna salad,

            Debbie Viess
            Oakland




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






            Unsubscribe: mailto:CALBIRDS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            Website: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CALBIRDS
            Listowners: mailto:CALBIRDS-owner@yahoogroups.com

            For vacation suspension of mail go to the website. Click on Edit My
            Membership and set your mail option to No Email. Or, send a blank email
            to these addresses:
            Turn off email delivery: mailto:CALBIRDS-nomail@yahoogroups.com
            Resume email delivery: mailto:CALBIRDS-normal@yahoogroups.com


            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • Thomas Miko
            Please keep in mind birds unique respiratory system among vertebrates: where they always have fresh air moving through the lungs in one direction. Kimball
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 5, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              Please keep in mind birds' unique respiratory system among vertebrates: where they always have fresh air moving through the lungs in one direction.
              Kimball Garrett or Dr Cathy Jacobs or Dr Joel Weintraub may have something to add (I don't know how this difference in "plumbing" i.e. ventilation may or may not affect blood CO2 levels, which could be neutralized by equally elevated O2 levels). Cathy teaches vertebrate physiology at CSUDH.

              Thomas Miko

              LAC-USC Medical Center
              Department of Nucear Medicine
              Room 5200


              >
              > From: "James F. Holmes" <jfholmes@...>
              > Date: 2004/08/05 Thu AM 10:41:16 CDT
              > To: "'OrCoRBA'" <orcorba@...>,
              > "Calbird \(Calbird\)" <CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com>
              > Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] Case of the drunken Ibis
              >
              > Hyperventilation causes a decrease in arterial carbon dioxide concentration.
              > This in turn causes cerebrovasoconstriction and a reduction of blood flow to
              > the brain. Hyperventilation was once a standard therapy for patients with
              > significant traumatic brain injury because it caused cerebrovasoconstriction
              > and reduced the amount of blood flow to the injured brain. Blood flow to
              > the brain could be decreased by 30% with severe hyperventilation of these
              > patients. We thought that less blood to the brain would result in lowering
              > intracranial pressure (which is your goal in patients with bad head
              > injuries). We have subsequently learned that the problems with
              > hyperventilation are worse than the benefits and it is no longer routinely
              > used as first line therapy in patients with traumatic brain injuries.
              >
              >
              >
              > We know this for a fact in humans and dogs (since a lot of the research has
              > been done in those animals). I am not sure about Ibis, but would assume the
              > physiology is the same.
              >
              >
              >
              > James F. Holmes, MD, MPH
              >
              > Associate Professor
              >
              > Department of Emergency Medicine
              >
              > UC Davis School of Medicine
              >
              >
              >
              > office: (916) 734-1533
              >
              > pager: (916) 762-1208
              >
              > fax: (916) 734-7950
              >
              > email: jfholmes@...
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: OrCoRBA [mailto:orcorba@...]
              > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 8:51 PM
              > To: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com; HeraldPetrel@...; Nathaniel Wander
              > Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] Case of the drunken Ibis
              >
              >
              >
              > I don't want to lead this discussion on a tangent, but I don't think your
              >
              > explanation that "prolonged panting in people reduces blood flow to the
              >
              > brain, which primes them for bad decision making" is correct. Not sure
              >
              > about "prolonged" but hyperventilation in humans drives out carbon dioxide
              >
              > and shifts the oxygen dissociation curve of the blood to the right. What
              >
              > that means is that the red blood cells hold on to more oxygen than usual
              >
              > under these more basic (versus acidic) blood conditions during
              >
              > hyperventilation, and the brain, which needs high amounts of oxygen, cannot
              >
              > function and the person gets faint or light-headed or does faint. I've not
              >
              > seen before any mention of blood flow being reduced to the brain in this
              >
              > situation. As an example, that's why pregnant women using breathing
              >
              > exercises during labor are told to breathe into a paper bag so that they
              >
              > don't lose the carbon dioxide and thus they cut down on the
              >
              > giddiness/faintness of the rapid breathing.
              >
              > Joel Weintraub
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Unsubscribe: mailto:CALBIRDS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Website: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CALBIRDS
              >
              > Listowners: mailto:CALBIRDS-owner@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > For vacation suspension of mail go to the website. Click on Edit My
              > Membership and set your mail option to No Email. Or, send a blank email to
              > these addresses:
              >
              > Turn off email delivery: mailto:CALBIRDS-nomail@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Resume email delivery: mailto:CALBIRDS-normal@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CALBIRDS/
              >
              >
              >
              > CALBIRDS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Unsubscribe: mailto:CALBIRDS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > Website: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CALBIRDS
              > Listowners: mailto:CALBIRDS-owner@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > For vacation suspension of mail go to the website. Click on Edit My Membership and set your mail option to No Email. Or, send a blank email to these addresses:
              > Turn off email delivery: mailto:CALBIRDS-nomail@yahoogroups.com
              > Resume email delivery: mailto:CALBIRDS-normal@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >

              Thomas Miko (Mikó Tamás)

              thomas.miko@...
              thomas_miko@...

              653 S. Indian Hill Blvd., #C
              Claremont, CA 91711
              U.S.A.
              34.109167 N, 117.718293 W

              home: (909) 445-1456
              page: (310) 366-9990
              cell: (626) 390-1935

              FRS radio channel 11 code 22

              thomas_miko@...

              http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/birdsofhungary
            • Debbie Viess
              I spent an unseasonably warm and sunny day yesterday
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 16, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=group
                s/S=:HM/A=2128215/rand=294361664>
                I spent an unseasonably warm and sunny day yesterday at the San Mateo
                Coast, near Pescadero. It was a minus tide, and there was plenty of
                newly exposed territory for the local animals to explore. The dark
                rocks, festooned with mussels, barnacles and many varieties of seaweed,
                nicely set off the beauty of the birds. Of note was a handsome surfbird,
                with mere vestiges of breeding plumage remaining, and a family group of
                Black Oystercatchers, with the adults dropping food on the rocks for
                their two submissive, begging youngsters. Upon closer examination, I
                noticed that the bills of the young oystercatchers were shorter than
                those of their parents, and had black tips. There were plenty of rafting
                Western grebes, the handsome and easily IDed Heerman's gull, his red
                bill contrasting with his dark gray back, black turnstones, busily
                poking amongst the kelp, battalions of brown pelicans flying over, and
                an unidentified small, dark alcid floating out beyond the rocks: no
                scope, no ID. Taking advantage of the increased offshore real estate was
                the largest haul-out of harbor seals that I'd ever seen at that
                location.at least 100 animals, mostly adults, with varied pelage and in
                apparently fine fettle. Two pairs frolicked in the water nearby, doing
                their bit to increase the numbers of young seals come next spring. They
                looked blissful. Back on shore, I was feeling pretty blissful myself, an
                awestruck witness to a slice of California paradise.

                Debbie Viess
                Oakland, CA


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.