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RE: [CALBIRDS] Case of the drunken Ibis

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  • Luke Cole
    It could also be a pesticide used in the flooded field. Luke Luke Cole Director Center on Race, Poverty & the Environment 450 Geary Street, Suite 500 San
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 4, 2004
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      It could also be a pesticide used in the flooded field.

      Luke



      Luke Cole

      Director
      Center on Race, Poverty & the Environment
      450 Geary Street, Suite 500
      San Francisco, CA 94102
      415-346-4179 x2 + fax 415-346-8723
      luke@...
    • Nathaniel Wander
      What can you do say about a heat-stressed ibis? 1) Heat-stressed birds pant, hold their wings away from the body, depress their feathers close to the body,
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 4, 2004
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        What can you do say about a heat-stressed ibis?

        1) "Heat-stressed birds pant, hold their wings away from the body,
        depress their feathers close to the body, and appear anxious and agitated.
        Heat stroke and death can result if the bird continues to be overheated.
        Birds can also pant for prolonged periods without constricting the blood
        vessels in their brains. So even when physically taxed, they keep their
        wits about them. By contrast, prolonged panting in people reduces blood
        flow to the brain, which primes them for bad decision making -- hence the
        occasional unfortunate climber who blithely strolls off a cliff"
        <http://www.science.edu.sg/ssc/detailed.jsp?artid=5991&type=6&root=4&parent=4&cat=35
        >

        Maybe if the panting goes on too long, birds too can get dopey? Or maybe
        they hyperventilate?

        2) "Ambient temperature has been shown to alter circulating glucose levels
        in domestic birds. Hyperthermia induces hyperglycemia by bringing about a
        volume-percentage decrease of erythrocytes"
        <http://www.vet.uga.edu/IVCVM/1999/Gullahorn/Gullahorn.htm >

        3) "As a result of hyperglycemia, pancreatic secretion of insulin increases
        [with] resultant hyperinsulinemia . . ." [re horses]
        <http://www.inform.umd.edu/MNC/2004_Summaries/Complete_Sum_Guide04.pdf>

        Insulin overdosing can also cause staggering and dopiness.

        Nathaniel

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • OrCoRBA
        I don t want to lead this discussion on a tangent, but I don t think your explanation that prolonged panting in people reduces blood flow to the brain, which
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 4, 2004
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          I don't want to lead this discussion on a tangent, but I don't think your
          explanation that "prolonged panting in people reduces blood flow to the
          brain, which primes them for bad decision making" is correct. Not sure
          about "prolonged" but hyperventilation in humans drives out carbon dioxide
          and shifts the oxygen dissociation curve of the blood to the right. What
          that means is that the red blood cells hold on to more oxygen than usual
          under these more basic (versus acidic) blood conditions during
          hyperventilation, and the brain, which needs high amounts of oxygen, cannot
          function and the person gets faint or light-headed or does faint. I've not
          seen before any mention of blood flow being reduced to the brain in this
          situation. As an example, that's why pregnant women using breathing
          exercises during labor are told to breathe into a paper bag so that they
          don't lose the carbon dioxide and thus they cut down on the
          giddiness/faintness of the rapid breathing.
          Joel Weintraub
        • James F. Holmes
          Hyperventilation causes a decrease in arterial carbon dioxide concentration. This in turn causes cerebrovasoconstriction and a reduction of blood flow to the
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 5, 2004
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            Hyperventilation causes a decrease in arterial carbon dioxide concentration.
            This in turn causes cerebrovasoconstriction and a reduction of blood flow to
            the brain. Hyperventilation was once a standard therapy for patients with
            significant traumatic brain injury because it caused cerebrovasoconstriction
            and reduced the amount of blood flow to the injured brain. Blood flow to
            the brain could be decreased by 30% with severe hyperventilation of these
            patients. We thought that less blood to the brain would result in lowering
            intracranial pressure (which is your goal in patients with bad head
            injuries). We have subsequently learned that the problems with
            hyperventilation are worse than the benefits and it is no longer routinely
            used as first line therapy in patients with traumatic brain injuries.



            We know this for a fact in humans and dogs (since a lot of the research has
            been done in those animals). I am not sure about Ibis, but would assume the
            physiology is the same.



            James F. Holmes, MD, MPH

            Associate Professor

            Department of Emergency Medicine

            UC Davis School of Medicine



            office: (916) 734-1533

            pager: (916) 762-1208

            fax: (916) 734-7950

            email: jfholmes@...





            -----Original Message-----
            From: OrCoRBA [mailto:orcorba@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 8:51 PM
            To: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com; HeraldPetrel@...; Nathaniel Wander
            Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] Case of the drunken Ibis



            I don't want to lead this discussion on a tangent, but I don't think your

            explanation that "prolonged panting in people reduces blood flow to the

            brain, which primes them for bad decision making" is correct. Not sure

            about "prolonged" but hyperventilation in humans drives out carbon dioxide

            and shifts the oxygen dissociation curve of the blood to the right. What

            that means is that the red blood cells hold on to more oxygen than usual

            under these more basic (versus acidic) blood conditions during

            hyperventilation, and the brain, which needs high amounts of oxygen, cannot

            function and the person gets faint or light-headed or does faint. I've not

            seen before any mention of blood flow being reduced to the brain in this

            situation. As an example, that's why pregnant women using breathing

            exercises during labor are told to breathe into a paper bag so that they

            don't lose the carbon dioxide and thus they cut down on the

            giddiness/faintness of the rapid breathing.

            Joel Weintraub












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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Debbie Viess
            Sounds like some sort of toxic effect to me. According to the description, the birds were showing no sign of heat stress. Besides, birds are pre-adapted to
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 5, 2004
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              Sounds like some sort of toxic effect to me. According to the
              description, the birds were showing no sign of heat stress. Besides,
              birds are pre-adapted to tolerate high temperatures. And a lack of
              carcasses doesn't necessarily mean that there was no mortality;
              predators/scavengers are quite efficient, and work under cover of
              darkness.

              Mercury poisoning is a possibility.it can cause ataxia, or a loss of
              coordination, and high concentrations of mercury are rampant in fish
              populations. The Birders Handbook lists pesticides and herbicides as a
              threat to the white faced ibis population in the LA area; who knows what
              sort of chemical stew is being used on the rice fields down there?

              As for me, think I'll skip the tuna salad,

              Debbie Viess
              Oakland




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Bruce Deuel
              I think some folks are misinterpreting the evidence. These birds recovered and began acting normally. Would this occur with either disease or toxins? Cheers,
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 5, 2004
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                I think some folks are misinterpreting the evidence. These birds
                recovered and began acting normally. Would this occur with either
                disease or toxins?

                Cheers,
                Bruce Deuel
                Redding

                >>> "Debbie Viess" <amanitarita@...> 8/5/2004 1:42:05 PM
                >>>
                Sounds like some sort of toxic effect to me. According to the
                description, the birds were showing no sign of heat stress. Besides,
                birds are pre-adapted to tolerate high temperatures. And a lack of
                carcasses doesn't necessarily mean that there was no mortality;
                predators/scavengers are quite efficient, and work under cover of
                darkness.

                Mercury poisoning is a possibility.it can cause ataxia, or a loss of
                coordination, and high concentrations of mercury are rampant in fish
                populations. The Birders Handbook lists pesticides and herbicides as a
                threat to the white faced ibis population in the LA area; who knows
                what
                sort of chemical stew is being used on the rice fields down there?

                As for me, think I'll skip the tuna salad,

                Debbie Viess
                Oakland




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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              • Thomas Miko
                Please keep in mind birds unique respiratory system among vertebrates: where they always have fresh air moving through the lungs in one direction. Kimball
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 5, 2004
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                  Please keep in mind birds' unique respiratory system among vertebrates: where they always have fresh air moving through the lungs in one direction.
                  Kimball Garrett or Dr Cathy Jacobs or Dr Joel Weintraub may have something to add (I don't know how this difference in "plumbing" i.e. ventilation may or may not affect blood CO2 levels, which could be neutralized by equally elevated O2 levels). Cathy teaches vertebrate physiology at CSUDH.

                  Thomas Miko

                  LAC-USC Medical Center
                  Department of Nucear Medicine
                  Room 5200


                  >
                  > From: "James F. Holmes" <jfholmes@...>
                  > Date: 2004/08/05 Thu AM 10:41:16 CDT
                  > To: "'OrCoRBA'" <orcorba@...>,
                  > "Calbird \(Calbird\)" <CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] Case of the drunken Ibis
                  >
                  > Hyperventilation causes a decrease in arterial carbon dioxide concentration.
                  > This in turn causes cerebrovasoconstriction and a reduction of blood flow to
                  > the brain. Hyperventilation was once a standard therapy for patients with
                  > significant traumatic brain injury because it caused cerebrovasoconstriction
                  > and reduced the amount of blood flow to the injured brain. Blood flow to
                  > the brain could be decreased by 30% with severe hyperventilation of these
                  > patients. We thought that less blood to the brain would result in lowering
                  > intracranial pressure (which is your goal in patients with bad head
                  > injuries). We have subsequently learned that the problems with
                  > hyperventilation are worse than the benefits and it is no longer routinely
                  > used as first line therapy in patients with traumatic brain injuries.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > We know this for a fact in humans and dogs (since a lot of the research has
                  > been done in those animals). I am not sure about Ibis, but would assume the
                  > physiology is the same.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > James F. Holmes, MD, MPH
                  >
                  > Associate Professor
                  >
                  > Department of Emergency Medicine
                  >
                  > UC Davis School of Medicine
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > office: (916) 734-1533
                  >
                  > pager: (916) 762-1208
                  >
                  > fax: (916) 734-7950
                  >
                  > email: jfholmes@...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: OrCoRBA [mailto:orcorba@...]
                  > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 8:51 PM
                  > To: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com; HeraldPetrel@...; Nathaniel Wander
                  > Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] Case of the drunken Ibis
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I don't want to lead this discussion on a tangent, but I don't think your
                  >
                  > explanation that "prolonged panting in people reduces blood flow to the
                  >
                  > brain, which primes them for bad decision making" is correct. Not sure
                  >
                  > about "prolonged" but hyperventilation in humans drives out carbon dioxide
                  >
                  > and shifts the oxygen dissociation curve of the blood to the right. What
                  >
                  > that means is that the red blood cells hold on to more oxygen than usual
                  >
                  > under these more basic (versus acidic) blood conditions during
                  >
                  > hyperventilation, and the brain, which needs high amounts of oxygen, cannot
                  >
                  > function and the person gets faint or light-headed or does faint. I've not
                  >
                  > seen before any mention of blood flow being reduced to the brain in this
                  >
                  > situation. As an example, that's why pregnant women using breathing
                  >
                  > exercises during labor are told to breathe into a paper bag so that they
                  >
                  > don't lose the carbon dioxide and thus they cut down on the
                  >
                  > giddiness/faintness of the rapid breathing.
                  >
                  > Joel Weintraub
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                  >
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                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                  Thomas Miko (Mikó Tamás)

                  thomas.miko@...
                  thomas_miko@...

                  653 S. Indian Hill Blvd., #C
                  Claremont, CA 91711
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                  home: (909) 445-1456
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                • Debbie Viess
                  I spent an unseasonably warm and sunny day yesterday
                  Message 8 of 11 , Aug 16, 2004
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                    <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=group
                    s/S=:HM/A=2128215/rand=294361664>
                    I spent an unseasonably warm and sunny day yesterday at the San Mateo
                    Coast, near Pescadero. It was a minus tide, and there was plenty of
                    newly exposed territory for the local animals to explore. The dark
                    rocks, festooned with mussels, barnacles and many varieties of seaweed,
                    nicely set off the beauty of the birds. Of note was a handsome surfbird,
                    with mere vestiges of breeding plumage remaining, and a family group of
                    Black Oystercatchers, with the adults dropping food on the rocks for
                    their two submissive, begging youngsters. Upon closer examination, I
                    noticed that the bills of the young oystercatchers were shorter than
                    those of their parents, and had black tips. There were plenty of rafting
                    Western grebes, the handsome and easily IDed Heerman's gull, his red
                    bill contrasting with his dark gray back, black turnstones, busily
                    poking amongst the kelp, battalions of brown pelicans flying over, and
                    an unidentified small, dark alcid floating out beyond the rocks: no
                    scope, no ID. Taking advantage of the increased offshore real estate was
                    the largest haul-out of harbor seals that I'd ever seen at that
                    location.at least 100 animals, mostly adults, with varied pelage and in
                    apparently fine fettle. Two pairs frolicked in the water nearby, doing
                    their bit to increase the numbers of young seals come next spring. They
                    looked blissful. Back on shore, I was feeling pretty blissful myself, an
                    awestruck witness to a slice of California paradise.

                    Debbie Viess
                    Oakland, CA


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