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Re: [CALBIRDS] Case of the drunken Ibis

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  • Chuck & Lillian
    I ve heard of giraffes and other African animals eating fermented berries and getting loaded in the process. Perhaps they intended to get drunk. I believe
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 4, 2004
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      I've heard of giraffes and other African animals eating fermented berries and getting loaded in the process. Perhaps they intended to get drunk. I believe I've also heard of Cedar Waxwings doing the same thing here in the US. Maybe the WFIB were getting cranked on something out in the field? Maybe someone dumped a load of used tequila worms out there?
      Chuck Almdale
      Santa Monica, Ca
      misclists@...

      At 03:31 PM 08/04/2004 -0700, Bob Miller wrote:
      >Ok, enough of that..... White-faced Ibis seem to enjoy the heat more than most livings things out here in the desert, myself included, and I believe that the behaviour you witnessed is just contended birds dozing off!

      ----------


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    • Luke Cole
      It could also be a pesticide used in the flooded field. Luke Luke Cole Director Center on Race, Poverty & the Environment 450 Geary Street, Suite 500 San
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 4, 2004
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        It could also be a pesticide used in the flooded field.

        Luke



        Luke Cole

        Director
        Center on Race, Poverty & the Environment
        450 Geary Street, Suite 500
        San Francisco, CA 94102
        415-346-4179 x2 + fax 415-346-8723
        luke@...
      • Nathaniel Wander
        What can you do say about a heat-stressed ibis? 1) Heat-stressed birds pant, hold their wings away from the body, depress their feathers close to the body,
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 4, 2004
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          What can you do say about a heat-stressed ibis?

          1) "Heat-stressed birds pant, hold their wings away from the body,
          depress their feathers close to the body, and appear anxious and agitated.
          Heat stroke and death can result if the bird continues to be overheated.
          Birds can also pant for prolonged periods without constricting the blood
          vessels in their brains. So even when physically taxed, they keep their
          wits about them. By contrast, prolonged panting in people reduces blood
          flow to the brain, which primes them for bad decision making -- hence the
          occasional unfortunate climber who blithely strolls off a cliff"
          <http://www.science.edu.sg/ssc/detailed.jsp?artid=5991&type=6&root=4&parent=4&cat=35
          >

          Maybe if the panting goes on too long, birds too can get dopey? Or maybe
          they hyperventilate?

          2) "Ambient temperature has been shown to alter circulating glucose levels
          in domestic birds. Hyperthermia induces hyperglycemia by bringing about a
          volume-percentage decrease of erythrocytes"
          <http://www.vet.uga.edu/IVCVM/1999/Gullahorn/Gullahorn.htm >

          3) "As a result of hyperglycemia, pancreatic secretion of insulin increases
          [with] resultant hyperinsulinemia . . ." [re horses]
          <http://www.inform.umd.edu/MNC/2004_Summaries/Complete_Sum_Guide04.pdf>

          Insulin overdosing can also cause staggering and dopiness.

          Nathaniel

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • OrCoRBA
          I don t want to lead this discussion on a tangent, but I don t think your explanation that prolonged panting in people reduces blood flow to the brain, which
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 4, 2004
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            I don't want to lead this discussion on a tangent, but I don't think your
            explanation that "prolonged panting in people reduces blood flow to the
            brain, which primes them for bad decision making" is correct. Not sure
            about "prolonged" but hyperventilation in humans drives out carbon dioxide
            and shifts the oxygen dissociation curve of the blood to the right. What
            that means is that the red blood cells hold on to more oxygen than usual
            under these more basic (versus acidic) blood conditions during
            hyperventilation, and the brain, which needs high amounts of oxygen, cannot
            function and the person gets faint or light-headed or does faint. I've not
            seen before any mention of blood flow being reduced to the brain in this
            situation. As an example, that's why pregnant women using breathing
            exercises during labor are told to breathe into a paper bag so that they
            don't lose the carbon dioxide and thus they cut down on the
            giddiness/faintness of the rapid breathing.
            Joel Weintraub
          • James F. Holmes
            Hyperventilation causes a decrease in arterial carbon dioxide concentration. This in turn causes cerebrovasoconstriction and a reduction of blood flow to the
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 5, 2004
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              Hyperventilation causes a decrease in arterial carbon dioxide concentration.
              This in turn causes cerebrovasoconstriction and a reduction of blood flow to
              the brain. Hyperventilation was once a standard therapy for patients with
              significant traumatic brain injury because it caused cerebrovasoconstriction
              and reduced the amount of blood flow to the injured brain. Blood flow to
              the brain could be decreased by 30% with severe hyperventilation of these
              patients. We thought that less blood to the brain would result in lowering
              intracranial pressure (which is your goal in patients with bad head
              injuries). We have subsequently learned that the problems with
              hyperventilation are worse than the benefits and it is no longer routinely
              used as first line therapy in patients with traumatic brain injuries.



              We know this for a fact in humans and dogs (since a lot of the research has
              been done in those animals). I am not sure about Ibis, but would assume the
              physiology is the same.



              James F. Holmes, MD, MPH

              Associate Professor

              Department of Emergency Medicine

              UC Davis School of Medicine



              office: (916) 734-1533

              pager: (916) 762-1208

              fax: (916) 734-7950

              email: jfholmes@...





              -----Original Message-----
              From: OrCoRBA [mailto:orcorba@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 8:51 PM
              To: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com; HeraldPetrel@...; Nathaniel Wander
              Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] Case of the drunken Ibis



              I don't want to lead this discussion on a tangent, but I don't think your

              explanation that "prolonged panting in people reduces blood flow to the

              brain, which primes them for bad decision making" is correct. Not sure

              about "prolonged" but hyperventilation in humans drives out carbon dioxide

              and shifts the oxygen dissociation curve of the blood to the right. What

              that means is that the red blood cells hold on to more oxygen than usual

              under these more basic (versus acidic) blood conditions during

              hyperventilation, and the brain, which needs high amounts of oxygen, cannot

              function and the person gets faint or light-headed or does faint. I've not

              seen before any mention of blood flow being reduced to the brain in this

              situation. As an example, that's why pregnant women using breathing

              exercises during labor are told to breathe into a paper bag so that they

              don't lose the carbon dioxide and thus they cut down on the

              giddiness/faintness of the rapid breathing.

              Joel Weintraub












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            • Debbie Viess
              Sounds like some sort of toxic effect to me. According to the description, the birds were showing no sign of heat stress. Besides, birds are pre-adapted to
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 5, 2004
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                Sounds like some sort of toxic effect to me. According to the
                description, the birds were showing no sign of heat stress. Besides,
                birds are pre-adapted to tolerate high temperatures. And a lack of
                carcasses doesn't necessarily mean that there was no mortality;
                predators/scavengers are quite efficient, and work under cover of
                darkness.

                Mercury poisoning is a possibility.it can cause ataxia, or a loss of
                coordination, and high concentrations of mercury are rampant in fish
                populations. The Birders Handbook lists pesticides and herbicides as a
                threat to the white faced ibis population in the LA area; who knows what
                sort of chemical stew is being used on the rice fields down there?

                As for me, think I'll skip the tuna salad,

                Debbie Viess
                Oakland




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Bruce Deuel
                I think some folks are misinterpreting the evidence. These birds recovered and began acting normally. Would this occur with either disease or toxins? Cheers,
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 5, 2004
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                  I think some folks are misinterpreting the evidence. These birds
                  recovered and began acting normally. Would this occur with either
                  disease or toxins?

                  Cheers,
                  Bruce Deuel
                  Redding

                  >>> "Debbie Viess" <amanitarita@...> 8/5/2004 1:42:05 PM
                  >>>
                  Sounds like some sort of toxic effect to me. According to the
                  description, the birds were showing no sign of heat stress. Besides,
                  birds are pre-adapted to tolerate high temperatures. And a lack of
                  carcasses doesn't necessarily mean that there was no mortality;
                  predators/scavengers are quite efficient, and work under cover of
                  darkness.

                  Mercury poisoning is a possibility.it can cause ataxia, or a loss of
                  coordination, and high concentrations of mercury are rampant in fish
                  populations. The Birders Handbook lists pesticides and herbicides as a
                  threat to the white faced ibis population in the LA area; who knows
                  what
                  sort of chemical stew is being used on the rice fields down there?

                  As for me, think I'll skip the tuna salad,

                  Debbie Viess
                  Oakland




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                • Thomas Miko
                  Please keep in mind birds unique respiratory system among vertebrates: where they always have fresh air moving through the lungs in one direction. Kimball
                  Message 8 of 11 , Aug 5, 2004
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                    Please keep in mind birds' unique respiratory system among vertebrates: where they always have fresh air moving through the lungs in one direction.
                    Kimball Garrett or Dr Cathy Jacobs or Dr Joel Weintraub may have something to add (I don't know how this difference in "plumbing" i.e. ventilation may or may not affect blood CO2 levels, which could be neutralized by equally elevated O2 levels). Cathy teaches vertebrate physiology at CSUDH.

                    Thomas Miko

                    LAC-USC Medical Center
                    Department of Nucear Medicine
                    Room 5200


                    >
                    > From: "James F. Holmes" <jfholmes@...>
                    > Date: 2004/08/05 Thu AM 10:41:16 CDT
                    > To: "'OrCoRBA'" <orcorba@...>,
                    > "Calbird \(Calbird\)" <CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Subject: RE: [CALBIRDS] Case of the drunken Ibis
                    >
                    > Hyperventilation causes a decrease in arterial carbon dioxide concentration.
                    > This in turn causes cerebrovasoconstriction and a reduction of blood flow to
                    > the brain. Hyperventilation was once a standard therapy for patients with
                    > significant traumatic brain injury because it caused cerebrovasoconstriction
                    > and reduced the amount of blood flow to the injured brain. Blood flow to
                    > the brain could be decreased by 30% with severe hyperventilation of these
                    > patients. We thought that less blood to the brain would result in lowering
                    > intracranial pressure (which is your goal in patients with bad head
                    > injuries). We have subsequently learned that the problems with
                    > hyperventilation are worse than the benefits and it is no longer routinely
                    > used as first line therapy in patients with traumatic brain injuries.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > We know this for a fact in humans and dogs (since a lot of the research has
                    > been done in those animals). I am not sure about Ibis, but would assume the
                    > physiology is the same.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > James F. Holmes, MD, MPH
                    >
                    > Associate Professor
                    >
                    > Department of Emergency Medicine
                    >
                    > UC Davis School of Medicine
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > office: (916) 734-1533
                    >
                    > pager: (916) 762-1208
                    >
                    > fax: (916) 734-7950
                    >
                    > email: jfholmes@...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: OrCoRBA [mailto:orcorba@...]
                    > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 8:51 PM
                    > To: CALBIRDS@yahoogroups.com; HeraldPetrel@...; Nathaniel Wander
                    > Subject: Re: [CALBIRDS] Case of the drunken Ibis
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I don't want to lead this discussion on a tangent, but I don't think your
                    >
                    > explanation that "prolonged panting in people reduces blood flow to the
                    >
                    > brain, which primes them for bad decision making" is correct. Not sure
                    >
                    > about "prolonged" but hyperventilation in humans drives out carbon dioxide
                    >
                    > and shifts the oxygen dissociation curve of the blood to the right. What
                    >
                    > that means is that the red blood cells hold on to more oxygen than usual
                    >
                    > under these more basic (versus acidic) blood conditions during
                    >
                    > hyperventilation, and the brain, which needs high amounts of oxygen, cannot
                    >
                    > function and the person gets faint or light-headed or does faint. I've not
                    >
                    > seen before any mention of blood flow being reduced to the brain in this
                    >
                    > situation. As an example, that's why pregnant women using breathing
                    >
                    > exercises during labor are told to breathe into a paper bag so that they
                    >
                    > don't lose the carbon dioxide and thus they cut down on the
                    >
                    > giddiness/faintness of the rapid breathing.
                    >
                    > Joel Weintraub
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    Thomas Miko (Mikó Tamás)

                    thomas.miko@...
                    thomas_miko@...

                    653 S. Indian Hill Blvd., #C
                    Claremont, CA 91711
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                  • Debbie Viess
                    I spent an unseasonably warm and sunny day yesterday
                    Message 9 of 11 , Aug 16, 2004
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                      <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=group
                      s/S=:HM/A=2128215/rand=294361664>
                      I spent an unseasonably warm and sunny day yesterday at the San Mateo
                      Coast, near Pescadero. It was a minus tide, and there was plenty of
                      newly exposed territory for the local animals to explore. The dark
                      rocks, festooned with mussels, barnacles and many varieties of seaweed,
                      nicely set off the beauty of the birds. Of note was a handsome surfbird,
                      with mere vestiges of breeding plumage remaining, and a family group of
                      Black Oystercatchers, with the adults dropping food on the rocks for
                      their two submissive, begging youngsters. Upon closer examination, I
                      noticed that the bills of the young oystercatchers were shorter than
                      those of their parents, and had black tips. There were plenty of rafting
                      Western grebes, the handsome and easily IDed Heerman's gull, his red
                      bill contrasting with his dark gray back, black turnstones, busily
                      poking amongst the kelp, battalions of brown pelicans flying over, and
                      an unidentified small, dark alcid floating out beyond the rocks: no
                      scope, no ID. Taking advantage of the increased offshore real estate was
                      the largest haul-out of harbor seals that I'd ever seen at that
                      location.at least 100 animals, mostly adults, with varied pelage and in
                      apparently fine fettle. Two pairs frolicked in the water nearby, doing
                      their bit to increase the numbers of young seals come next spring. They
                      looked blissful. Back on shore, I was feeling pretty blissful myself, an
                      awestruck witness to a slice of California paradise.

                      Debbie Viess
                      Oakland, CA


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