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Daily Life in Byzantium...

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  • Cassius
    Greetings all, I finally received my copy of Daily Life in Byzantium but haven t had time to read much. However, the couple of snippits I have glanced at
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 8, 2010
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      Greetings all,

      I finally received my copy of "Daily Life in Byzantium" but haven't had time to read much. However, the couple of snippits I have glanced at have me a little upset!

      It's astounding how much information there is out there on Classical Rome. Every aspect of daily life is written about... from what went on in the baths, to how they cooked, gardened, dressed, made cloth, organized their homes, did art, etc. etc.

      Byzantium? Well, who would bother to write about that!

      It occured to me that I didn't even know if the Byzantines used Roman style baths. I looked it up online.. got ONE Wikipedia article about a bath house in Constantinople, that was burned down in the Nika riots and was "later rebuilt."

      That's it.

      So far the Daily Life book is a gem, even though it's certainly not exhaustive in detail itself.

      Anyway, the answer to my question was... the Byzantines pretty much kept up the Roman public bath system. It was common for Citizens in Constantinople to visit the baths twice a day, but three times was considered a bit decadant. The men and women bathed at different times because morals had changed a bit... but it all remained pretty much Roman for many centuries.

      It's the little details that make things interesting to the public I think. I've seen people really interested in the Roman baths, and it's amazing to see that the subject is ignored in Byzantium... simply because it was the *Eastern* empire.

      Lots of cultural work to be done here I think! :)

      -Marcus Cassius Julianus
    • Amma Ulfsson
      I have always wanted a Roman-style bath of my own! Of course, I need the huge home to put it in first! No, it certainly wouldn t be public! :) I have been
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 10, 2010
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        I have always wanted a Roman-style bath of my own! Of course, I need the huge home to put it in first! No, it certainly wouldn't be public! :)

        I have been doing some reading to brush up on my cooking and food knowledge, so I'll be interested to hear about more of what this book offers! And I'll be looking for that book myself!
         
        Blessings,
        Amma
        He who attains love cannot fall.
        
        —Saint Macarius the Great

        On 12/8/2010 8:38 PM, Cassius wrote:
         

        Greetings all,

        I finally received my copy of "Daily Life in Byzantium" but haven't had time to read much. However, the couple of snippits I have glanced at have me a little upset!

        It's astounding how much information there is out there on Classical Rome. Every aspect of daily life is written about... from what went on in the baths, to how they cooked, gardened, dressed, made cloth, organized their homes, did art, etc. etc.

        Byzantium? Well, who would bother to write about that!

        It occured to me that I didn't even know if the Byzantines used Roman style baths. I looked it up online.. got ONE Wikipedia article about a bath house in Constantinople, that was burned down in the Nika riots and was "later rebuilt."

        That's it.

        So far the Daily Life book is a gem, even though it's certainly not exhaustive in detail itself.

        Anyway, the answer to my question was... the Byzantines pretty much kept up the Roman public bath system. It was common for Citizens in Constantinople to visit the baths twice a day, but three times was considered a bit decadant. The men and women bathed at different times because morals had changed a bit... but it all remained pretty much Roman for many centuries.

        It's the little details that make things interesting to the public I think. I've seen people really interested in the Roman baths, and it's amazing to see that the subject is ignored in Byzantium... simply because it was the *Eastern* empire.

        Lots of cultural work to be done here I think! :)

        -Marcus Cassius Julianus

      • Cassius
        Greetings Amma, I think Daily Life in Byzantium is out of print, but I m sure a copy can still be found through Amazon, eBay or other online source. That s
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 11, 2010
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          Greetings Amma,

          I think "Daily Life in Byzantium" is out of print, but I'm sure a copy can still be found through Amazon, eBay or other online source. That's where I got my copy, lol!

          I've always wanted to have my own Roman bath as well. One thing I've really always wanted is a strigil... I'd actually use the thing!

          Even speaking of that, the lack of Byzantine detail is maddening. Did the Byzantines use oil and a strigil to remove dirt before bathing? Or did soap come into vogue sometime during the Byzantine period? I'll have to look that up!

          -Cassius





          --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com, Amma Ulfsson <ammaulfsson@...> wrote:
          >
          > I have always wanted a Roman-style bath of my own! Of course, I need the
          > huge home to put it in first! No, it certainly wouldn't be public! :)
          >
          > I have been doing some reading to brush up on my cooking and food
          > knowledge, so I'll be interested to hear about more of what this book
          > offers! And I'll be looking for that book myself!
          >
          > Blessings,
          > Amma
          >
          > He who attains love cannot fall.
          >
          > ---Saint Macarius the Great
          >
          >
          > On 12/8/2010 8:38 PM, Cassius wrote:
          > >
          > > Greetings all,
          > >
          > > I finally received my copy of "Daily Life in Byzantium" but haven't
          > > had time to read much. However, the couple of snippits I have glanced
          > > at have me a little upset!
          > >
          > > It's astounding how much information there is out there on Classical
          > > Rome. Every aspect of daily life is written about... from what went on
          > > in the baths, to how they cooked, gardened, dressed, made cloth,
          > > organized their homes, did art, etc. etc.
          > >
          > > Byzantium? Well, who would bother to write about that!
          > >
          > > It occured to me that I didn't even know if the Byzantines used Roman
          > > style baths. I looked it up online.. got ONE Wikipedia article about a
          > > bath house in Constantinople, that was burned down in the Nika riots
          > > and was "later rebuilt."
          > >
          > > That's it.
          > >
          > > So far the Daily Life book is a gem, even though it's certainly not
          > > exhaustive in detail itself.
          > >
          > > Anyway, the answer to my question was... the Byzantines pretty much
          > > kept up the Roman public bath system. It was common for Citizens in
          > > Constantinople to visit the baths twice a day, but three times was
          > > considered a bit decadant. The men and women bathed at different times
          > > because morals had changed a bit... but it all remained pretty much
          > > Roman for many centuries.
          > >
          > > It's the little details that make things interesting to the public I
          > > think. I've seen people really interested in the Roman baths, and it's
          > > amazing to see that the subject is ignored in Byzantium... simply
          > > because it was the *Eastern* empire.
          > >
          > > Lots of cultural work to be done here I think! :)
          > >
          > > -Marcus Cassius Julianus
          > >
          > >
          >
        • Amma Ulfsson
          Greetings dear Cassius, It seems as though soap was widely in use, but so was olive oil and strigil bathing. Olive oil is one of the best things you can use on
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 12, 2010
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            Greetings dear Cassius,

            It seems as though soap was widely in use, but so was olive oil and strigil bathing. Olive oil is one of the best things you can use on your skin. In ancient times it was not only used for cleansing the body, but it was also used medicinally and as an aphrodisiac! Most women know the benefits of warm olive oil on dry skin or hair.

            On a side note, I'm considering making our Christmas dinner all Byzantine this year. Anyone else?

            Amma
            He who attains love cannot fall.
            
            —Saint Macarius the Great

            On 12/11/2010 9:09 PM, Cassius wrote:
             

            Greetings Amma,

            I think "Daily Life in Byzantium" is out of print, but I'm sure a copy can still be found through Amazon, eBay or other online source. That's where I got my copy, lol!

            I've always wanted to have my own Roman bath as well. One thing I've really always wanted is a strigil... I'd actually use the thing!

            Even speaking of that, the lack of Byzantine detail is maddening. Did the Byzantines use oil and a strigil to remove dirt before bathing? Or did soap come into vogue sometime during the Byzantine period? I'll have to look that up!

            -Cassius

            --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com, Amma Ulfsson <ammaulfsson@...> wrote:
            >
            > I have always wanted a Roman-style bath of my own! Of course, I need the
            > huge home to put it in first! No, it certainly wouldn't be public! :)
            >
            > I have been doing some reading to brush up on my cooking and food
            > knowledge, so I'll be interested to hear about more of what this book
            > offers! And I'll be looking for that book myself!
            >
            > Blessings,
            > Amma
            >
            > He who attains love cannot fall.
            >
            > ---Saint Macarius the Great
            >
            >
            > On 12/8/2010 8:38 PM, Cassius wrote:
            > >
            > > Greetings all,
            > >
            > > I finally received my copy of "Daily Life in Byzantium" but haven't
            > > had time to read much. However, the couple of snippits I have glanced
            > > at have me a little upset!
            > >
            > > It's astounding how much information there is out there on Classical
            > > Rome. Every aspect of daily life is written about... from what went on
            > > in the baths, to how they cooked, gardened, dressed, made cloth,
            > > organized their homes, did art, etc. etc.
            > >
            > > Byzantium? Well, who would bother to write about that!
            > >
            > > It occured to me that I didn't even know if the Byzantines used Roman
            > > style baths. I looked it up online.. got ONE Wikipedia article about a
            > > bath house in Constantinople, that was burned down in the Nika riots
            > > and was "later rebuilt."
            > >
            > > That's it.
            > >
            > > So far the Daily Life book is a gem, even though it's certainly not
            > > exhaustive in detail itself.
            > >
            > > Anyway, the answer to my question was... the Byzantines pretty much
            > > kept up the Roman public bath system. It was common for Citizens in
            > > Constantinople to visit the baths twice a day, but three times was
            > > considered a bit decadant. The men and women bathed at different times
            > > because morals had changed a bit... but it all remained pretty much
            > > Roman for many centuries.
            > >
            > > It's the little details that make things interesting to the public I
            > > think. I've seen people really interested in the Roman baths, and it's
            > > amazing to see that the subject is ignored in Byzantium... simply
            > > because it was the *Eastern* empire.
            > >
            > > Lots of cultural work to be done here I think! :)
            > >
            > > -Marcus Cassius Julianus
            > >
            > >
            >

          • Cassius
            Greetings Amma, I guess it does make sense that oil and strigil cleaning would have remained in use even after soap came into wider use. Just because the
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 12, 2010
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              Greetings Amma,

              I guess it does make sense that oil and strigil cleaning would have remained in use even after soap came into wider use. Just because the modern world is conditioned to soap doesn't mean it's the only way to get clean. It turns out the fat in soap is a good part of what actively does the cleaning... and olive oil would be about the freshest, cleanest and best feeling way to do that.

              While checking this out I noticed "Greek soap" on the Internet, which is apparently made from olive oil rather than rendered animal fat. I'm wondering if this is the type of soap the Byzantines made now...

              -Cassius



              --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com, Amma Ulfsson <ammaulfsson@...> wrote:
              >
              > Greetings dear Cassius,
              >
              > It seems as though soap was widely in use, but so was olive oil and
              > strigil bathing. Olive oil is one of the best things you can use on your
              > skin. In ancient times it was not only used for cleansing the body, but
              > it was also used medicinally and as an aphrodisiac! Most women know the
              > benefits of warm olive oil on dry skin or hair.
              >
              > On a side note, I'm considering making our Christmas dinner all
              > Byzantine this year. Anyone else?
              >
              > Amma
              >
              > He who attains love cannot fall.
              >
              > ---Saint Macarius the Great
              >
              >
              > On 12/11/2010 9:09 PM, Cassius wrote:
              > >
              > > Greetings Amma,
              > >
              > > I think "Daily Life in Byzantium" is out of print, but I'm sure a copy
              > > can still be found through Amazon, eBay or other online source. That's
              > > where I got my copy, lol!
              > >
              > > I've always wanted to have my own Roman bath as well. One thing I've
              > > really always wanted is a strigil... I'd actually use the thing!
              > >
              > > Even speaking of that, the lack of Byzantine detail is maddening. Did
              > > the Byzantines use oil and a strigil to remove dirt before bathing? Or
              > > did soap come into vogue sometime during the Byzantine period? I'll
              > > have to look that up!
              > >
              > > -Cassius
              > >
              > > --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com
              > > <mailto:ByzantiumNovumCulture%40yahoogroups.com>, Amma Ulfsson
              > > <ammaulfsson@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I have always wanted a Roman-style bath of my own! Of course, I need
              > > the
              > > > huge home to put it in first! No, it certainly wouldn't be public! :)
              > > >
              > > > I have been doing some reading to brush up on my cooking and food
              > > > knowledge, so I'll be interested to hear about more of what this book
              > > > offers! And I'll be looking for that book myself!
              > > >
              > > > Blessings,
              > > > Amma
              > > >
              > > > He who attains love cannot fall.
              > > >
              > > > ---Saint Macarius the Great
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > On 12/8/2010 8:38 PM, Cassius wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Greetings all,
              > > > >
              > > > > I finally received my copy of "Daily Life in Byzantium" but haven't
              > > > > had time to read much. However, the couple of snippits I have glanced
              > > > > at have me a little upset!
              > > > >
              > > > > It's astounding how much information there is out there on Classical
              > > > > Rome. Every aspect of daily life is written about... from what
              > > went on
              > > > > in the baths, to how they cooked, gardened, dressed, made cloth,
              > > > > organized their homes, did art, etc. etc.
              > > > >
              > > > > Byzantium? Well, who would bother to write about that!
              > > > >
              > > > > It occured to me that I didn't even know if the Byzantines used Roman
              > > > > style baths. I looked it up online.. got ONE Wikipedia article
              > > about a
              > > > > bath house in Constantinople, that was burned down in the Nika riots
              > > > > and was "later rebuilt."
              > > > >
              > > > > That's it.
              > > > >
              > > > > So far the Daily Life book is a gem, even though it's certainly not
              > > > > exhaustive in detail itself.
              > > > >
              > > > > Anyway, the answer to my question was... the Byzantines pretty much
              > > > > kept up the Roman public bath system. It was common for Citizens in
              > > > > Constantinople to visit the baths twice a day, but three times was
              > > > > considered a bit decadant. The men and women bathed at different
              > > times
              > > > > because morals had changed a bit... but it all remained pretty much
              > > > > Roman for many centuries.
              > > > >
              > > > > It's the little details that make things interesting to the public I
              > > > > think. I've seen people really interested in the Roman baths, and
              > > it's
              > > > > amazing to see that the subject is ignored in Byzantium... simply
              > > > > because it was the *Eastern* empire.
              > > > >
              > > > > Lots of cultural work to be done here I think! :)
              > > > >
              > > > > -Marcus Cassius Julianus
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Amma Ulfsson
              Olive oil is one of my favorite oils for massage. I have a local herbalist who makes herb-infused olive oil for headache and muscle ache relief. It feels like
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 12, 2010
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                Olive oil is one of my favorite oils for massage. I have a local herbalist who makes herb-infused olive oil for headache and muscle ache relief. It feels like silk on the skin, and it will ease dry skin immediately! I really do recommend its use even in this modern age. Medicinally in Byzantium, warm olive oil baths were prescribed for folks with neuralgia! Baths are typically excavated showing the Roman style and oil cisterns and presses are usually quite close. This would certainly indicate that oil was a necessary part of physical cleanliness!

                And no one's going to bite at my Christmas dinner question? :) I need to complete the menu, but once I do, I will certainly post it! As a foodie, every Thanksgiving the turkey is done in some new style (curried was a favorite!), and I try to incorporate something medieval every Christmas. Well, it seems only right to do Byzantine as we're new citizens!

                Blessings,
                Amma
                (My daughter decided the other night that she agreed with me in that Amma Mama was a great name!)

                He who attains love cannot fall.
                
                —Saint Macarius the Great

                On 12/12/2010 6:57 AM, Cassius wrote:
                 

                Greetings Amma,

                I guess it does make sense that oil and strigil cleaning would have remained in use even after soap came into wider use. Just because the modern world is conditioned to soap doesn't mean it's the only way to get clean. It turns out the fat in soap is a good part of what actively does the cleaning... and olive oil would be about the freshest, cleanest and best feeling way to do that.

                While checking this out I noticed "Greek soap" on the Internet, which is apparently made from olive oil rather than rendered animal fat. I'm wondering if this is the type of soap the Byzantines made now...

                -Cassius

                --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com, Amma Ulfsson <ammaulfsson@...> wrote:
                >
                > Greetings dear Cassius,
                >
                > It seems as though soap was widely in use, but so was olive oil and
                > strigil bathing. Olive oil is one of the best things you can use on your
                > skin. In ancient times it was not only used for cleansing the body, but
                > it was also used medicinally and as an aphrodisiac! Most women know the
                > benefits of warm olive oil on dry skin or hair.
                >
                > On a side note, I'm considering making our Christmas dinner all
                > Byzantine this year. Anyone else?
                >
                > Amma
                >
                > He who attains love cannot fall.
                >
                > ---Saint Macarius the Great
                >
                >
                > On 12/11/2010 9:09 PM, Cassius wrote:
                > >
                > > Greetings Amma,
                > >
                > > I think "Daily Life in Byzantium" is out of print, but I'm sure a copy
                > > can still be found through Amazon, eBay or other online source. That's
                > > where I got my copy, lol!
                > >
                > > I've always wanted to have my own Roman bath as well. One thing I've
                > > really always wanted is a strigil... I'd actually use the thing!
                > >
                > > Even speaking of that, the lack of Byzantine detail is maddening. Did
                > > the Byzantines use oil and a strigil to remove dirt before bathing? Or
                > > did soap come into vogue sometime during the Byzantine period? I'll
                > > have to look that up!
                > >
                > > -Cassius
                > >
                > > --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com
                > > <mailto:ByzantiumNovumCulture%40yahoogroups.com>, Amma Ulfsson
                > > <ammaulfsson@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > I have always wanted a Roman-style bath of my own! Of course, I need
                > > the
                > > > huge home to put it in first! No, it certainly wouldn't be public! :)
                > > >
                > > > I have been doing some reading to brush up on my cooking and food
                > > > knowledge, so I'll be interested to hear about more of what this book
                > > > offers! And I'll be looking for that book myself!
                > > >
                > > > Blessings,
                > > > Amma
                > > >
                > > > He who attains love cannot fall.
                > > >
                > > > ---Saint Macarius the Great
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > On 12/8/2010 8:38 PM, Cassius wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Greetings all,
                > > > >
                > > > > I finally received my copy of "Daily Life in Byzantium" but haven't
                > > > > had time to read much. However, the couple of snippits I have glanced
                > > > > at have me a little upset!
                > > > >
                > > > > It's astounding how much information there is out there on Classical
                > > > > Rome. Every aspect of daily life is written about... from what
                > > went on
                > > > > in the baths, to how they cooked, gardened, dressed, made cloth,
                > > > > organized their homes, did art, etc. etc.
                > > > >
                > > > > Byzantium? Well, who would bother to write about that!
                > > > >
                > > > > It occured to me that I didn't even know if the Byzantines used Roman
                > > > > style baths. I looked it up online.. got ONE Wikipedia article
                > > about a
                > > > > bath house in Constantinople, that was burned down in the Nika riots
                > > > > and was "later rebuilt."
                > > > >
                > > > > That's it.
                > > > >
                > > > > So far the Daily Life book is a gem, even though it's certainly not
                > > > > exhaustive in detail itself.
                > > > >
                > > > > Anyway, the answer to my question was... the Byzantines pretty much
                > > > > kept up the Roman public bath system. It was common for Citizens in
                > > > > Constantinople to visit the baths twice a day, but three times was
                > > > > considered a bit decadant. The men and women bathed at different
                > > times
                > > > > because morals had changed a bit... but it all remained pretty much
                > > > > Roman for many centuries.
                > > > >
                > > > > It's the little details that make things interesting to the public I
                > > > > think. I've seen people really interested in the Roman baths, and
                > > it's
                > > > > amazing to see that the subject is ignored in Byzantium... simply
                > > > > because it was the *Eastern* empire.
                > > > >
                > > > > Lots of cultural work to be done here I think! :)
                > > > >
                > > > > -Marcus Cassius Julianus
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                >

              • Amma Ulfsson
                Have you heard about Mount Sapo? Roman legend says that the fat from sacrificed animals would run down the mountain in the rain water, and mixing with the ash
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 12, 2010
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                  Have you heard about Mount Sapo? Roman legend says that the fat from sacrificed animals would run down the mountain in the rain water, and mixing with the ash that collected under the altars along the banks of the Tiber. Women washing clothes are said to have discovered that the fat and ash mixture made for cleaner clothes, and so the legend of the first soap is born!
                  He who attains love cannot fall.
                  
                  —Saint Macarius the Great

                  On 12/12/2010 6:57 AM, Cassius wrote:
                   

                  Greetings Amma,

                  I guess it does make sense that oil and strigil cleaning would have remained in use even after soap came into wider use. Just because the modern world is conditioned to soap doesn't mean it's the only way to get clean. It turns out the fat in soap is a good part of what actively does the cleaning... and olive oil would be about the freshest, cleanest and best feeling way to do that.

                  While checking this out I noticed "Greek soap" on the Internet, which is apparently made from olive oil rather than rendered animal fat. I'm wondering if this is the type of soap the Byzantines made now...

                  -Cassius

                  --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com, Amma Ulfsson <ammaulfsson@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Greetings dear Cassius,
                  >
                  > It seems as though soap was widely in use, but so was olive oil and
                  > strigil bathing. Olive oil is one of the best things you can use on your
                  > skin. In ancient times it was not only used for cleansing the body, but
                  > it was also used medicinally and as an aphrodisiac! Most women know the
                  > benefits of warm olive oil on dry skin or hair.
                  >
                  > On a side note, I'm considering making our Christmas dinner all
                  > Byzantine this year. Anyone else?
                  >
                  > Amma
                  >
                  > He who attains love cannot fall.
                  >
                  > ---Saint Macarius the Great
                  >
                  >
                  > On 12/11/2010 9:09 PM, Cassius wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Greetings Amma,
                  > >
                  > > I think "Daily Life in Byzantium" is out of print, but I'm sure a copy
                  > > can still be found through Amazon, eBay or other online source. That's
                  > > where I got my copy, lol!
                  > >
                  > > I've always wanted to have my own Roman bath as well. One thing I've
                  > > really always wanted is a strigil... I'd actually use the thing!
                  > >
                  > > Even speaking of that, the lack of Byzantine detail is maddening. Did
                  > > the Byzantines use oil and a strigil to remove dirt before bathing? Or
                  > > did soap come into vogue sometime during the Byzantine period? I'll
                  > > have to look that up!
                  > >
                  > > -Cassius
                  > >
                  > > --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com
                  > > <mailto:ByzantiumNovumCulture%40yahoogroups.com>, Amma Ulfsson
                  > > <ammaulfsson@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I have always wanted a Roman-style bath of my own! Of course, I need
                  > > the
                  > > > huge home to put it in first! No, it certainly wouldn't be public! :)
                  > > >
                  > > > I have been doing some reading to brush up on my cooking and food
                  > > > knowledge, so I'll be interested to hear about more of what this book
                  > > > offers! And I'll be looking for that book myself!
                  > > >
                  > > > Blessings,
                  > > > Amma
                  > > >
                  > > > He who attains love cannot fall.
                  > > >
                  > > > ---Saint Macarius the Great
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > On 12/8/2010 8:38 PM, Cassius wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Greetings all,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I finally received my copy of "Daily Life in Byzantium" but haven't
                  > > > > had time to read much. However, the couple of snippits I have glanced
                  > > > > at have me a little upset!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > It's astounding how much information there is out there on Classical
                  > > > > Rome. Every aspect of daily life is written about... from what
                  > > went on
                  > > > > in the baths, to how they cooked, gardened, dressed, made cloth,
                  > > > > organized their homes, did art, etc. etc.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Byzantium? Well, who would bother to write about that!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > It occured to me that I didn't even know if the Byzantines used Roman
                  > > > > style baths. I looked it up online.. got ONE Wikipedia article
                  > > about a
                  > > > > bath house in Constantinople, that was burned down in the Nika riots
                  > > > > and was "later rebuilt."
                  > > > >
                  > > > > That's it.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > So far the Daily Life book is a gem, even though it's certainly not
                  > > > > exhaustive in detail itself.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Anyway, the answer to my question was... the Byzantines pretty much
                  > > > > kept up the Roman public bath system. It was common for Citizens in
                  > > > > Constantinople to visit the baths twice a day, but three times was
                  > > > > considered a bit decadant. The men and women bathed at different
                  > > times
                  > > > > because morals had changed a bit... but it all remained pretty much
                  > > > > Roman for many centuries.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > It's the little details that make things interesting to the public I
                  > > > > think. I've seen people really interested in the Roman baths, and
                  > > it's
                  > > > > amazing to see that the subject is ignored in Byzantium... simply
                  > > > > because it was the *Eastern* empire.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Lots of cultural work to be done here I think! :)
                  > > > >
                  > > > > -Marcus Cassius Julianus
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >

                • Cassius
                  Greetings, Wasn t ignoring your Christmas dinner... was just trying to hold myself back from inviting myself over, lol! :) I m going to be visiting family this
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 13, 2010
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                    Greetings,

                    Wasn't ignoring your Christmas dinner... was just trying to hold myself back from inviting myself over, lol! :)

                    I'm going to be visiting family this year so I won't be getting to do much cooking, but please do post your menu when you've finalized everything. It sounds like great fun and I'm sure it'll be delicious too.

                    I suppose turkey is out. Unlesss maybe it's served with a purple and gold garnish?

                    -Cassius



                    --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com, Amma Ulfsson <ammaulfsson@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Olive oil is one of my favorite oils for massage. I have a local
                    > herbalist who makes herb-infused olive oil for headache and muscle ache
                    > relief. It feels like silk on the skin, and it will ease dry skin
                    > immediately! I really do recommend its use even in this modern age.
                    > Medicinally in Byzantium, warm olive oil baths were prescribed for folks
                    > with neuralgia! Baths are typically excavated showing the Roman style
                    > and oil cisterns and presses are usually quite close. This would
                    > certainly indicate that oil was a necessary part of physical cleanliness!
                    >
                    > And no one's going to bite at my Christmas dinner question? :) I need to
                    > complete the menu, but once I do, I will certainly post it! As a foodie,
                    > every Thanksgiving the turkey is done in some new style (curried was a
                    > favorite!), and I try to incorporate something medieval every Christmas.
                    > Well, it seems only right to do Byzantine as we're new citizens!
                    >
                    > Blessings,
                    > Amma
                    > (My daughter decided the other night that she agreed with me in that
                    > Amma Mama was a great name!)
                    >
                    > He who attains love cannot fall.
                    >
                    > ---Saint Macarius the Great
                    >
                    >
                    > On 12/12/2010 6:57 AM, Cassius wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Greetings Amma,
                    > >
                    > > I guess it does make sense that oil and strigil cleaning would have
                    > > remained in use even after soap came into wider use. Just because the
                    > > modern world is conditioned to soap doesn't mean it's the only way to
                    > > get clean. It turns out the fat in soap is a good part of what
                    > > actively does the cleaning... and olive oil would be about the
                    > > freshest, cleanest and best feeling way to do that.
                    > >
                    > > While checking this out I noticed "Greek soap" on the Internet, which
                    > > is apparently made from olive oil rather than rendered animal fat. I'm
                    > > wondering if this is the type of soap the Byzantines made now...
                    > >
                    > > -Cassius
                    > >
                    > > --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com
                    > > <mailto:ByzantiumNovumCulture%40yahoogroups.com>, Amma Ulfsson
                    > > <ammaulfsson@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Greetings dear Cassius,
                    > > >
                    > > > It seems as though soap was widely in use, but so was olive oil and
                    > > > strigil bathing. Olive oil is one of the best things you can use on
                    > > your
                    > > > skin. In ancient times it was not only used for cleansing the body, but
                    > > > it was also used medicinally and as an aphrodisiac! Most women know the
                    > > > benefits of warm olive oil on dry skin or hair.
                    > > >
                    > > > On a side note, I'm considering making our Christmas dinner all
                    > > > Byzantine this year. Anyone else?
                    > > >
                    > > > Amma
                    > > >
                    > > > He who attains love cannot fall.
                    > > >
                    > > > ---Saint Macarius the Great
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > On 12/11/2010 9:09 PM, Cassius wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Greetings Amma,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I think "Daily Life in Byzantium" is out of print, but I'm sure a
                    > > copy
                    > > > > can still be found through Amazon, eBay or other online source.
                    > > That's
                    > > > > where I got my copy, lol!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I've always wanted to have my own Roman bath as well. One thing I've
                    > > > > really always wanted is a strigil... I'd actually use the thing!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Even speaking of that, the lack of Byzantine detail is maddening. Did
                    > > > > the Byzantines use oil and a strigil to remove dirt before
                    > > bathing? Or
                    > > > > did soap come into vogue sometime during the Byzantine period? I'll
                    > > > > have to look that up!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > -Cassius
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com
                    > > <mailto:ByzantiumNovumCulture%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > > <mailto:ByzantiumNovumCulture%40yahoogroups.com>, Amma Ulfsson
                    > > > > <ammaulfsson@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I have always wanted a Roman-style bath of my own! Of course, I
                    > > need
                    > > > > the
                    > > > > > huge home to put it in first! No, it certainly wouldn't be
                    > > public! :)
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I have been doing some reading to brush up on my cooking and food
                    > > > > > knowledge, so I'll be interested to hear about more of what this
                    > > book
                    > > > > > offers! And I'll be looking for that book myself!
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Blessings,
                    > > > > > Amma
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > He who attains love cannot fall.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > ---Saint Macarius the Great
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > On 12/8/2010 8:38 PM, Cassius wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Greetings all,
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > I finally received my copy of "Daily Life in Byzantium" but
                    > > haven't
                    > > > > > > had time to read much. However, the couple of snippits I have
                    > > glanced
                    > > > > > > at have me a little upset!
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > It's astounding how much information there is out there on
                    > > Classical
                    > > > > > > Rome. Every aspect of daily life is written about... from what
                    > > > > went on
                    > > > > > > in the baths, to how they cooked, gardened, dressed, made cloth,
                    > > > > > > organized their homes, did art, etc. etc.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Byzantium? Well, who would bother to write about that!
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > It occured to me that I didn't even know if the Byzantines
                    > > used Roman
                    > > > > > > style baths. I looked it up online.. got ONE Wikipedia article
                    > > > > about a
                    > > > > > > bath house in Constantinople, that was burned down in the Nika
                    > > riots
                    > > > > > > and was "later rebuilt."
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > That's it.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > So far the Daily Life book is a gem, even though it's
                    > > certainly not
                    > > > > > > exhaustive in detail itself.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Anyway, the answer to my question was... the Byzantines pretty
                    > > much
                    > > > > > > kept up the Roman public bath system. It was common for
                    > > Citizens in
                    > > > > > > Constantinople to visit the baths twice a day, but three times was
                    > > > > > > considered a bit decadant. The men and women bathed at different
                    > > > > times
                    > > > > > > because morals had changed a bit... but it all remained pretty
                    > > much
                    > > > > > > Roman for many centuries.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > It's the little details that make things interesting to the
                    > > public I
                    > > > > > > think. I've seen people really interested in the Roman baths, and
                    > > > > it's
                    > > > > > > amazing to see that the subject is ignored in Byzantium... simply
                    > > > > > > because it was the *Eastern* empire.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Lots of cultural work to be done here I think! :)
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > -Marcus Cassius Julianus
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • damnnedbeloved
                    Khairete, So just out of curiousity, what was the cuisine like back then? Pax, Aeternia
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 13, 2010
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                      Khairete,

                      So just out of curiousity, what was the cuisine like back then?


                      Pax,
                      Aeternia

                      --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com, Amma Ulfsson <ammaulfsson@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Greetings dear Cassius,
                      >
                      > It seems as though soap was widely in use, but so was olive oil and
                      > strigil bathing. Olive oil is one of the best things you can use on your
                      > skin. In ancient times it was not only used for cleansing the body, but
                      > it was also used medicinally and as an aphrodisiac! Most women know the
                      > benefits of warm olive oil on dry skin or hair.
                      >
                      > On a side note, I'm considering making our Christmas dinner all
                      > Byzantine this year. Anyone else?
                      >
                      > Amma
                      >
                      > He who attains love cannot fall.
                      >
                      > ---Saint Macarius the Great
                      >
                      >
                      > On 12/11/2010 9:09 PM, Cassius wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Greetings Amma,
                      > >
                      > > I think "Daily Life in Byzantium" is out of print, but I'm sure a copy
                      > > can still be found through Amazon, eBay or other online source. That's
                      > > where I got my copy, lol!
                      > >
                      > > I've always wanted to have my own Roman bath as well. One thing I've
                      > > really always wanted is a strigil... I'd actually use the thing!
                      > >
                      > > Even speaking of that, the lack of Byzantine detail is maddening. Did
                      > > the Byzantines use oil and a strigil to remove dirt before bathing? Or
                      > > did soap come into vogue sometime during the Byzantine period? I'll
                      > > have to look that up!
                      > >
                      > > -Cassius
                      > >
                      > > --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com
                      > > <mailto:ByzantiumNovumCulture%40yahoogroups.com>, Amma Ulfsson
                      > > <ammaulfsson@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I have always wanted a Roman-style bath of my own! Of course, I need
                      > > the
                      > > > huge home to put it in first! No, it certainly wouldn't be public! :)
                      > > >
                      > > > I have been doing some reading to brush up on my cooking and food
                      > > > knowledge, so I'll be interested to hear about more of what this book
                      > > > offers! And I'll be looking for that book myself!
                      > > >
                      > > > Blessings,
                      > > > Amma
                      > > >
                      > > > He who attains love cannot fall.
                      > > >
                      > > > ---Saint Macarius the Great
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > On 12/8/2010 8:38 PM, Cassius wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Greetings all,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I finally received my copy of "Daily Life in Byzantium" but haven't
                      > > > > had time to read much. However, the couple of snippits I have glanced
                      > > > > at have me a little upset!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > It's astounding how much information there is out there on Classical
                      > > > > Rome. Every aspect of daily life is written about... from what
                      > > went on
                      > > > > in the baths, to how they cooked, gardened, dressed, made cloth,
                      > > > > organized their homes, did art, etc. etc.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Byzantium? Well, who would bother to write about that!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > It occured to me that I didn't even know if the Byzantines used Roman
                      > > > > style baths. I looked it up online.. got ONE Wikipedia article
                      > > about a
                      > > > > bath house in Constantinople, that was burned down in the Nika riots
                      > > > > and was "later rebuilt."
                      > > > >
                      > > > > That's it.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > So far the Daily Life book is a gem, even though it's certainly not
                      > > > > exhaustive in detail itself.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Anyway, the answer to my question was... the Byzantines pretty much
                      > > > > kept up the Roman public bath system. It was common for Citizens in
                      > > > > Constantinople to visit the baths twice a day, but three times was
                      > > > > considered a bit decadant. The men and women bathed at different
                      > > times
                      > > > > because morals had changed a bit... but it all remained pretty much
                      > > > > Roman for many centuries.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > It's the little details that make things interesting to the public I
                      > > > > think. I've seen people really interested in the Roman baths, and
                      > > it's
                      > > > > amazing to see that the subject is ignored in Byzantium... simply
                      > > > > because it was the *Eastern* empire.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Lots of cultural work to be done here I think! :)
                      > > > >
                      > > > > -Marcus Cassius Julianus
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Amma Ulfsson
                      Actually, we ll be celebrating with fairly common foods for the period/area and nothing really fancy as you d likely expect on the holidays (at least for the
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 13, 2010
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                        Actually, we'll be celebrating with fairly common foods for the period/area and nothing really fancy as you'd likely expect on the holidays (at least for the modern celebrant). The meat will be a pork roast cooked in honeywine, which would have been a fairly common meat and cooking method- of course the open hearth to cook over is replaced with a modern oven (sigh). We'll have fresh bread and cheese (have to buy the cheese sadly) as well as oranges, lemons and figs to whet the appetite. Not complete on the menu just yet- it's all scribbled down on note pages right now. I promise to post it more completely when it's complete. Of course, the Eastern church likely would have been more about serving fish, but it's going to be a Byzantine menu, not a true Orthodox meal. My children would think I'd gone round the loop if I made fish on Christmas!!!

                        And a dream would be to oversee preparation of a Christmas supper for the whole nation! Then, perhaps, we'll do a few roasted lambs with fresh rosemary (Byz. was the 1st to use rosemary on lamb) and lay quite a feast out before us all! And, of course, we'd have fish for those who are on a fish day. :)

                        Blessings,
                        Amy
                        He who attains love cannot fall.
                        
                        —Saint Macarius the Great

                        On 12/13/2010 7:00 AM, Cassius wrote:
                         

                        Greetings,

                        Wasn't ignoring your Christmas dinner... was just trying to hold myself back from inviting myself over, lol! :)

                        I'm going to be visiting family this year so I won't be getting to do much cooking, but please do post your menu when you've finalized everything. It sounds like great fun and I'm sure it'll be delicious too.

                        I suppose turkey is out. Unlesss maybe it's served with a purple and gold garnish?

                        -Cassius

                        --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com, Amma Ulfsson <ammaulfsson@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Olive oil is one of my favorite oils for massage. I have a local
                        > herbalist who makes herb-infused olive oil for headache and muscle ache
                        > relief. It feels like silk on the skin, and it will ease dry skin
                        > immediately! I really do recommend its use even in this modern age.
                        > Medicinally in Byzantium, warm olive oil baths were prescribed for folks
                        > with neuralgia! Baths are typically excavated showing the Roman style
                        > and oil cisterns and presses are usually quite close. This would
                        > certainly indicate that oil was a necessary part of physical cleanliness!
                        >
                        > And no one's going to bite at my Christmas dinner question? :) I need to
                        > complete the menu, but once I do, I will certainly post it! As a foodie,
                        > every Thanksgiving the turkey is done in some new style (curried was a
                        > favorite!), and I try to incorporate something medieval every Christmas.
                        > Well, it seems only right to do Byzantine as we're new citizens!
                        >
                        > Blessings,
                        > Amma
                        > (My daughter decided the other night that she agreed with me in that
                        > Amma Mama was a great name!)
                        >
                        > He who attains love cannot fall.
                        >
                        > ---Saint Macarius the Great
                        >
                        >
                        > On 12/12/2010 6:57 AM, Cassius wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Greetings Amma,
                        > >
                        > > I guess it does make sense that oil and strigil cleaning would have
                        > > remained in use even after soap came into wider use. Just because the
                        > > modern world is conditioned to soap doesn't mean it's the only way to
                        > > get clean. It turns out the fat in soap is a good part of what
                        > > actively does the cleaning... and olive oil would be about the
                        > > freshest, cleanest and best feeling way to do that.
                        > >
                        > > While checking this out I noticed "Greek soap" on the Internet, which
                        > > is apparently made from olive oil rather than rendered animal fat. I'm
                        > > wondering if this is the type of soap the Byzantines made now...
                        > >
                        > > -Cassius
                        > >
                        > > --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com
                        > > <mailto:ByzantiumNovumCulture%40yahoogroups.com>, Amma Ulfsson
                        > > <ammaulfsson@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Greetings dear Cassius,
                        > > >
                        > > > It seems as though soap was widely in use, but so was olive oil and
                        > > > strigil bathing. Olive oil is one of the best things you can use on
                        > > your
                        > > > skin. In ancient times it was not only used for cleansing the body, but
                        > > > it was also used medicinally and as an aphrodisiac! Most women know the
                        > > > benefits of warm olive oil on dry skin or hair.
                        > > >
                        > > > On a side note, I'm considering making our Christmas dinner all
                        > > > Byzantine this year. Anyone else?
                        > > >
                        > > > Amma
                        > > >
                        > > > He who attains love cannot fall.
                        > > >
                        > > > ---Saint Macarius the Great
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > On 12/11/2010 9:09 PM, Cassius wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Greetings Amma,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I think "Daily Life in Byzantium" is out of print, but I'm sure a
                        > > copy
                        > > > > can still be found through Amazon, eBay or other online source.
                        > > That's
                        > > > > where I got my copy, lol!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I've always wanted to have my own Roman bath as well. One thing I've
                        > > > > really always wanted is a strigil... I'd actually use the thing!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Even speaking of that, the lack of Byzantine detail is maddening. Did
                        > > > > the Byzantines use oil and a strigil to remove dirt before
                        > > bathing? Or
                        > > > > did soap come into vogue sometime during the Byzantine period? I'll
                        > > > > have to look that up!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > -Cassius
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com
                        > > <mailto:ByzantiumNovumCulture%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > > <mailto:ByzantiumNovumCulture%40yahoogroups.com>, Amma Ulfsson
                        > > > > <ammaulfsson@> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I have always wanted a Roman-style bath of my own! Of course, I
                        > > need
                        > > > > the
                        > > > > > huge home to put it in first! No, it certainly wouldn't be
                        > > public! :)
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I have been doing some reading to brush up on my cooking and food
                        > > > > > knowledge, so I'll be interested to hear about more of what this
                        > > book
                        > > > > > offers! And I'll be looking for that book myself!
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Blessings,
                        > > > > > Amma
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > He who attains love cannot fall.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > ---Saint Macarius the Great
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > On 12/8/2010 8:38 PM, Cassius wrote:
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Greetings all,
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > I finally received my copy of "Daily Life in Byzantium" but
                        > > haven't
                        > > > > > > had time to read much. However, the couple of snippits I have
                        > > glanced
                        > > > > > > at have me a little upset!
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > It's astounding how much information there is out there on
                        > > Classical
                        > > > > > > Rome. Every aspect of daily life is written about... from what
                        > > > > went on
                        > > > > > > in the baths, to how they cooked, gardened, dressed, made cloth,
                        > > > > > > organized their homes, did art, etc. etc.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Byzantium? Well, who would bother to write about that!
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > It occured to me that I didn't even know if the Byzantines
                        > > used Roman
                        > > > > > > style baths. I looked it up online.. got ONE Wikipedia article
                        > > > > about a
                        > > > > > > bath house in Constantinople, that was burned down in the Nika
                        > > riots
                        > > > > > > and was "later rebuilt."
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > That's it.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > So far the Daily Life book is a gem, even though it's
                        > > certainly not
                        > > > > > > exhaustive in detail itself.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Anyway, the answer to my question was... the Byzantines pretty
                        > > much
                        > > > > > > kept up the Roman public bath system. It was common for
                        > > Citizens in
                        > > > > > > Constantinople to visit the baths twice a day, but three times was
                        > > > > > > considered a bit decadant. The men and women bathed at different
                        > > > > times
                        > > > > > > because morals had changed a bit... but it all remained pretty
                        > > much
                        > > > > > > Roman for many centuries.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > It's the little details that make things interesting to the
                        > > public I
                        > > > > > > think. I've seen people really interested in the Roman baths, and
                        > > > > it's
                        > > > > > > amazing to see that the subject is ignored in Byzantium... simply
                        > > > > > > because it was the *Eastern* empire.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Lots of cultural work to be done here I think! :)
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > -Marcus Cassius Julianus
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >

                      • Amma Ulfsson
                        And, dearest Cassius, my table is yours any time! He who attains love cannot fall.
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 13, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          And, dearest Cassius, my table is yours any time!
                          He who attains love cannot fall.
                          
                          —Saint Macarius the Great

                          On 12/13/2010 7:00 AM, Cassius wrote:
                           

                          Greetings,

                          Wasn't ignoring your Christmas dinner... was just trying to hold myself back from inviting myself over, lol! :)

                          I'm going to be visiting family this year so I won't be getting to do much cooking, but please do post your menu when you've finalized everything. It sounds like great fun and I'm sure it'll be delicious too.

                          I suppose turkey is out. Unlesss maybe it's served with a purple and gold garnish?

                          -Cassius

                          --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com, Amma Ulfsson <ammaulfsson@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Olive oil is one of my favorite oils for massage. I have a local
                          > herbalist who makes herb-infused olive oil for headache and muscle ache
                          > relief. It feels like silk on the skin, and it will ease dry skin
                          > immediately! I really do recommend its use even in this modern age.
                          > Medicinally in Byzantium, warm olive oil baths were prescribed for folks
                          > with neuralgia! Baths are typically excavated showing the Roman style
                          > and oil cisterns and presses are usually quite close. This would
                          > certainly indicate that oil was a necessary part of physical cleanliness!
                          >
                          > And no one's going to bite at my Christmas dinner question? :) I need to
                          > complete the menu, but once I do, I will certainly post it! As a foodie,
                          > every Thanksgiving the turkey is done in some new style (curried was a
                          > favorite!), and I try to incorporate something medieval every Christmas.
                          > Well, it seems only right to do Byzantine as we're new citizens!
                          >
                          > Blessings,
                          > Amma
                          > (My daughter decided the other night that she agreed with me in that
                          > Amma Mama was a great name!)
                          >
                          > He who attains love cannot fall.
                          >
                          > ---Saint Macarius the Great
                          >
                          >
                          > On 12/12/2010 6:57 AM, Cassius wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Greetings Amma,
                          > >
                          > > I guess it does make sense that oil and strigil cleaning would have
                          > > remained in use even after soap came into wider use. Just because the
                          > > modern world is conditioned to soap doesn't mean it's the only way to
                          > > get clean. It turns out the fat in soap is a good part of what
                          > > actively does the cleaning... and olive oil would be about the
                          > > freshest, cleanest and best feeling way to do that.
                          > >
                          > > While checking this out I noticed "Greek soap" on the Internet, which
                          > > is apparently made from olive oil rather than rendered animal fat. I'm
                          > > wondering if this is the type of soap the Byzantines made now...
                          > >
                          > > -Cassius
                          > >
                          > > --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com
                          > > <mailto:ByzantiumNovumCulture%40yahoogroups.com>, Amma Ulfsson
                          > > <ammaulfsson@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Greetings dear Cassius,
                          > > >
                          > > > It seems as though soap was widely in use, but so was olive oil and
                          > > > strigil bathing. Olive oil is one of the best things you can use on
                          > > your
                          > > > skin. In ancient times it was not only used for cleansing the body, but
                          > > > it was also used medicinally and as an aphrodisiac! Most women know the
                          > > > benefits of warm olive oil on dry skin or hair.
                          > > >
                          > > > On a side note, I'm considering making our Christmas dinner all
                          > > > Byzantine this year. Anyone else?
                          > > >
                          > > > Amma
                          > > >
                          > > > He who attains love cannot fall.
                          > > >
                          > > > ---Saint Macarius the Great
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > On 12/11/2010 9:09 PM, Cassius wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Greetings Amma,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I think "Daily Life in Byzantium" is out of print, but I'm sure a
                          > > copy
                          > > > > can still be found through Amazon, eBay or other online source.
                          > > That's
                          > > > > where I got my copy, lol!
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I've always wanted to have my own Roman bath as well. One thing I've
                          > > > > really always wanted is a strigil... I'd actually use the thing!
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Even speaking of that, the lack of Byzantine detail is maddening. Did
                          > > > > the Byzantines use oil and a strigil to remove dirt before
                          > > bathing? Or
                          > > > > did soap come into vogue sometime during the Byzantine period? I'll
                          > > > > have to look that up!
                          > > > >
                          > > > > -Cassius
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com
                          > > <mailto:ByzantiumNovumCulture%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > > <mailto:ByzantiumNovumCulture%40yahoogroups.com>, Amma Ulfsson
                          > > > > <ammaulfsson@> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I have always wanted a Roman-style bath of my own! Of course, I
                          > > need
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > huge home to put it in first! No, it certainly wouldn't be
                          > > public! :)
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I have been doing some reading to brush up on my cooking and food
                          > > > > > knowledge, so I'll be interested to hear about more of what this
                          > > book
                          > > > > > offers! And I'll be looking for that book myself!
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Blessings,
                          > > > > > Amma
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > He who attains love cannot fall.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > ---Saint Macarius the Great
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > On 12/8/2010 8:38 PM, Cassius wrote:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Greetings all,
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > I finally received my copy of "Daily Life in Byzantium" but
                          > > haven't
                          > > > > > > had time to read much. However, the couple of snippits I have
                          > > glanced
                          > > > > > > at have me a little upset!
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > It's astounding how much information there is out there on
                          > > Classical
                          > > > > > > Rome. Every aspect of daily life is written about... from what
                          > > > > went on
                          > > > > > > in the baths, to how they cooked, gardened, dressed, made cloth,
                          > > > > > > organized their homes, did art, etc. etc.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Byzantium? Well, who would bother to write about that!
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > It occured to me that I didn't even know if the Byzantines
                          > > used Roman
                          > > > > > > style baths. I looked it up online.. got ONE Wikipedia article
                          > > > > about a
                          > > > > > > bath house in Constantinople, that was burned down in the Nika
                          > > riots
                          > > > > > > and was "later rebuilt."
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > That's it.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > So far the Daily Life book is a gem, even though it's
                          > > certainly not
                          > > > > > > exhaustive in detail itself.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Anyway, the answer to my question was... the Byzantines pretty
                          > > much
                          > > > > > > kept up the Roman public bath system. It was common for
                          > > Citizens in
                          > > > > > > Constantinople to visit the baths twice a day, but three times was
                          > > > > > > considered a bit decadant. The men and women bathed at different
                          > > > > times
                          > > > > > > because morals had changed a bit... but it all remained pretty
                          > > much
                          > > > > > > Roman for many centuries.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > It's the little details that make things interesting to the
                          > > public I
                          > > > > > > think. I've seen people really interested in the Roman baths, and
                          > > > > it's
                          > > > > > > amazing to see that the subject is ignored in Byzantium... simply
                          > > > > > > because it was the *Eastern* empire.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Lots of cultural work to be done here I think! :)
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > -Marcus Cassius Julianus
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >

                        • Amma Ulfsson
                          I m so glad you asked! LOL Well, the Byzantines invented marzipan and the fork, so we know they were not untalented when it came to eating! In fact, the fork
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 13, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I'm so glad you asked! LOL Well, the Byzantines invented marzipan and the fork, so we know they were not untalented when it came to eating! In fact, the fork began as a sharpened end to a spoon which they would 'spear' their food with. It then developed into the 3, 4 and 5-prong forks.

                             Sauces were typically made of vinegar with either oil or honey, and they enjoyed walnuts, capers, dried fruits and citrus. The common cheeses were called prophatos and mizithra cheese. Breads were a necessary staple, so much so that bakers and their animals were exempt from any public duty at all, and they were the only ones! The herbs and spices were perhaps the most amazing things- not only were Roman spices in use, but also carroway, nutmeg, cinnamon, anise, mastic, cumin and more. They were the first to mix sweet and savory and the first to use saffron in cooking!

                            Meat was typically pork, although lamb was also eaten. The wealthy hunted gazelle and wild ass, and the Imperial Court kept lands for such hunting! Salted mullet roe that was pressed into a dry sausage of sorts was eaten, with caviar used commonly by the 1100s. On Orthodox fast days, no meat or fish was usually eaten and instead, they ate pease pudding with nutmeg. Millet porridge called piston was also commonly eaten throughout the week, and millet is very good for you! Typically during the medieval period, beef was cooked with verjuice, which provided a bit of acid to deal with the typical issue of old meat. I always add a bit of balsamic or red wine vinegar to my beef roasts to enhance the flavor. I redacted a medieval roast recipe for the crock pot, and it's delicious every time! :)

                            Wines were resinated, much like retsina today, or sweet, like a muscato yum!). Poushka (Roman posca) was also common. Honeywine (mead) was as common as everywhere else, and was used to flavor foods!

                             Rose sugar was a common sweet, and of course, the cult of St. Nicholas invented the gingerbread cookie!

                            Ah, and I'm adding black-eyed peas with a vinegar and honey sauce to the menu, along with chichees- add a couple of cups of cooked chick peas (garbanzos) to a pan and cover half the peas with water. Pour in just enough olive oil to cover the peas and toss in several cloves of roasted garlic. A couple of hours on a low setting, and yum.

                            And, as Marcus Audens and I have been discussing, olive oil was used not only for food, but for bathing as well! Oil was perfumed with herbs and spices to help overcome the smells of a world without Tide and deodorant, and the body would be rubbed in warm oil and scraped clean.

                            Blessings,
                            Amma

                            He who attains love cannot fall.
                            
                            —Saint Macarius the Great

                            On 12/13/2010 1:55 PM, damnnedbeloved wrote:
                             

                            Khairete,

                            So just out of curiousity, what was the cuisine like back then?

                            Pax,
                            Aeternia

                            --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com, Amma Ulfsson <ammaulfsson@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Greetings dear Cassius,
                            >
                            > It seems as though soap was widely in use, but so was olive oil and
                            > strigil bathing. Olive oil is one of the best things you can use on your
                            > skin. In ancient times it was not only used for cleansing the body, but
                            > it was also used medicinally and as an aphrodisiac! Most women know the
                            > benefits of warm olive oil on dry skin or hair.
                            >
                            > On a side note, I'm considering making our Christmas dinner all
                            > Byzantine this year. Anyone else?
                            >
                            > Amma
                            >
                            > He who attains love cannot fall.
                            >
                            > ---Saint Macarius the Great
                            >
                            >
                            > On 12/11/2010 9:09 PM, Cassius wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Greetings Amma,
                            > >
                            > > I think "Daily Life in Byzantium" is out of print, but I'm sure a copy
                            > > can still be found through Amazon, eBay or other online source. That's
                            > > where I got my copy, lol!
                            > >
                            > > I've always wanted to have my own Roman bath as well. One thing I've
                            > > really always wanted is a strigil... I'd actually use the thing!
                            > >
                            > > Even speaking of that, the lack of Byzantine detail is maddening. Did
                            > > the Byzantines use oil and a strigil to remove dirt before bathing? Or
                            > > did soap come into vogue sometime during the Byzantine period? I'll
                            > > have to look that up!
                            > >
                            > > -Cassius
                            > >
                            > > --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com
                            > > <mailto:ByzantiumNovumCulture%40yahoogroups.com>, Amma Ulfsson
                            > > <ammaulfsson@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > I have always wanted a Roman-style bath of my own! Of course, I need
                            > > the
                            > > > huge home to put it in first! No, it certainly wouldn't be public! :)
                            > > >
                            > > > I have been doing some reading to brush up on my cooking and food
                            > > > knowledge, so I'll be interested to hear about more of what this book
                            > > > offers! And I'll be looking for that book myself!
                            > > >
                            > > > Blessings,
                            > > > Amma
                            > > >
                            > > > He who attains love cannot fall.
                            > > >
                            > > > ---Saint Macarius the Great
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > On 12/8/2010 8:38 PM, Cassius wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Greetings all,
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I finally received my copy of "Daily Life in Byzantium" but haven't
                            > > > > had time to read much. However, the couple of snippits I have glanced
                            > > > > at have me a little upset!
                            > > > >
                            > > > > It's astounding how much information there is out there on Classical
                            > > > > Rome. Every aspect of daily life is written about... from what
                            > > went on
                            > > > > in the baths, to how they cooked, gardened, dressed, made cloth,
                            > > > > organized their homes, did art, etc. etc.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Byzantium? Well, who would bother to write about that!
                            > > > >
                            > > > > It occured to me that I didn't even know if the Byzantines used Roman
                            > > > > style baths. I looked it up online.. got ONE Wikipedia article
                            > > about a
                            > > > > bath house in Constantinople, that was burned down in the Nika riots
                            > > > > and was "later rebuilt."
                            > > > >
                            > > > > That's it.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > So far the Daily Life book is a gem, even though it's certainly not
                            > > > > exhaustive in detail itself.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Anyway, the answer to my question was... the Byzantines pretty much
                            > > > > kept up the Roman public bath system. It was common for Citizens in
                            > > > > Constantinople to visit the baths twice a day, but three times was
                            > > > > considered a bit decadant. The men and women bathed at different
                            > > times
                            > > > > because morals had changed a bit... but it all remained pretty much
                            > > > > Roman for many centuries.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > It's the little details that make things interesting to the public I
                            > > > > think. I've seen people really interested in the Roman baths, and
                            > > it's
                            > > > > amazing to see that the subject is ignored in Byzantium... simply
                            > > > > because it was the *Eastern* empire.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Lots of cultural work to be done here I think! :)
                            > > > >
                            > > > > -Marcus Cassius Julianus
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >

                          • Timothy Dawson
                            ... No doubt it depends upon who is cooking, but when it is me, then the answer is Delicious! Prôtospatharios Timotheos Vlastaris, Sometime Eparkhos tês
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 14, 2010
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                              > So just out of curiousity, what was the cuisine like back then?

                              No doubt it depends upon who is cooking, but when it is me, then the
                              answer is "Delicious!"



                              Prôtospatharios Timotheos Vlastaris,

                              Sometime Eparkhos tês Poleôs, Stratêgos tês Hetaireias
                            • Timothy Dawson
                              ... would spear their food with. Where on earth did you get this bizarre idea? The two pronged fork as a cooking utensil existed as far back as Classical
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 14, 2010
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                                On 14 Dec 2010, at 04:59, Amma Ulfsson wrote:
                                > In fact, the fork began as a sharpened end to a spoon which they
                                would 'spear' their food with.

                                Where on earth did you get this bizarre idea? The two pronged fork as
                                a cooking utensil existed as far back as Classical Greece. When it
                                jumped from kitchen to table is presently uncertain (prior to the C4th
                                CE, apparently), but I do suspect some Persian influence as it seems
                                to have been confined to the East. Eating forks with more than two
                                prongs post-date 1453.

                                Timotheos
                              • Cassius
                                Greetings Amma, I didn t know ANY of this... this would make a great article in the Culture section of the website if you ever get a chance to write it up as a
                                Message 15 of 20 , Dec 14, 2010
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                                  Greetings Amma,

                                  I didn't know ANY of this... this would make a great article in the Culture section of the website if you ever get a chance to write it up as a stand-alone bit. Not that we have much of a way to compensate you since there's no treasury at the moment. Maybe trade you for an ancient Byzantine artifact? THOSE we've got, lol!

                                  -Marcus Cassius Julianus



                                  --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com, Amma Ulfsson <ammaulfsson@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I'm so glad you asked! LOL Well, the Byzantines invented marzipan and
                                  > the fork, so we know they were not untalented when it came to eating! In
                                  > fact, the fork began as a sharpened end to a spoon which they would
                                  > 'spear' their food with. It then developed into the 3, 4 and 5-prong forks.
                                  >
                                  > Sauces were typically made of vinegar with either oil or honey, and
                                  > they enjoyed walnuts, capers, dried fruits and citrus. The common
                                  > cheeses were called prophatos and mizithra cheese. Breads were a
                                  > necessary staple, so much so that bakers and their animals were exempt
                                  > from any public duty at all, and they were the only ones! The herbs and
                                  > spices were perhaps the most amazing things- not only were Roman spices
                                  > in use, but also carroway, nutmeg, cinnamon, anise, mastic, cumin and
                                  > more. They were the first to mix sweet and savory and the first to use
                                  > saffron in cooking!
                                  >
                                  > Meat was typically pork, although lamb was also eaten. The wealthy
                                  > hunted gazelle and wild ass, and the Imperial Court kept lands for such
                                  > hunting! Salted mullet roe that was pressed into a dry sausage of sorts
                                  > was eaten, with caviar used commonly by the 1100s. On Orthodox fast
                                  > days, no meat or fish was usually eaten and instead, they ate pease
                                  > pudding with nutmeg. Millet porridge called piston was also commonly
                                  > eaten throughout the week, and millet is very good for you! Typically
                                  > during the medieval period, beef was cooked with verjuice, which
                                  > provided a bit of acid to deal with the typical issue of old meat. I
                                  > always add a bit of balsamic or red wine vinegar to my beef roasts to
                                  > enhance the flavor. I redacted a medieval roast recipe for the crock
                                  > pot, and it's delicious every time! :)
                                  >
                                  > Wines were resinated, much like retsina today, or sweet, like a muscato
                                  > yum!). Poushka (Roman posca) was also common. Honeywine (mead) was as
                                  > common as everywhere else, and was used to flavor foods!
                                  >
                                  > Rose sugar was a common sweet, and of course, the cult of St. Nicholas
                                  > invented the gingerbread cookie!
                                  >
                                  > Ah, and I'm adding black-eyed peas with a vinegar and honey sauce to the
                                  > menu, along with chichees- add a couple of cups of cooked chick peas
                                  > (garbanzos) to a pan and cover half the peas with water. Pour in just
                                  > enough olive oil to cover the peas and toss in several cloves of roasted
                                  > garlic. A couple of hours on a low setting, and yum.
                                  >
                                  > And, as Marcus Audens and I have been discussing, olive oil was used not
                                  > only for food, but for bathing as well! Oil was perfumed with herbs and
                                  > spices to help overcome the smells of a world without Tide and
                                  > deodorant, and the body would be rubbed in warm oil and scraped clean.
                                  >
                                  > Blessings,
                                  > Amma
                                  >
                                  > He who attains love cannot fall.
                                  >
                                  > ---Saint Macarius the Great
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On 12/13/2010 1:55 PM, damnnedbeloved wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Khairete,
                                  > >
                                  > > So just out of curiousity, what was the cuisine like back then?
                                  > >
                                  > > Pax,
                                  > > Aeternia
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > <mailto:ByzantiumNovumCulture%40yahoogroups.com>, Amma Ulfsson
                                  > > <ammaulfsson@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Greetings dear Cassius,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > It seems as though soap was widely in use, but so was olive oil and
                                  > > > strigil bathing. Olive oil is one of the best things you can use on
                                  > > your
                                  > > > skin. In ancient times it was not only used for cleansing the body, but
                                  > > > it was also used medicinally and as an aphrodisiac! Most women know the
                                  > > > benefits of warm olive oil on dry skin or hair.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > On a side note, I'm considering making our Christmas dinner all
                                  > > > Byzantine this year. Anyone else?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Amma
                                  > > >
                                  > > > He who attains love cannot fall.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ---Saint Macarius the Great
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > On 12/11/2010 9:09 PM, Cassius wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Greetings Amma,
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > I think "Daily Life in Byzantium" is out of print, but I'm sure a
                                  > > copy
                                  > > > > can still be found through Amazon, eBay or other online source.
                                  > > That's
                                  > > > > where I got my copy, lol!
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > I've always wanted to have my own Roman bath as well. One thing I've
                                  > > > > really always wanted is a strigil... I'd actually use the thing!
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Even speaking of that, the lack of Byzantine detail is maddening. Did
                                  > > > > the Byzantines use oil and a strigil to remove dirt before
                                  > > bathing? Or
                                  > > > > did soap come into vogue sometime during the Byzantine period? I'll
                                  > > > > have to look that up!
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > -Cassius
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > <mailto:ByzantiumNovumCulture%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > > > <mailto:ByzantiumNovumCulture%40yahoogroups.com>, Amma Ulfsson
                                  > > > > <ammaulfsson@> wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I have always wanted a Roman-style bath of my own! Of course, I
                                  > > need
                                  > > > > the
                                  > > > > > huge home to put it in first! No, it certainly wouldn't be
                                  > > public! :)
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I have been doing some reading to brush up on my cooking and food
                                  > > > > > knowledge, so I'll be interested to hear about more of what this
                                  > > book
                                  > > > > > offers! And I'll be looking for that book myself!
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Blessings,
                                  > > > > > Amma
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > He who attains love cannot fall.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > ---Saint Macarius the Great
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > On 12/8/2010 8:38 PM, Cassius wrote:
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Greetings all,
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > I finally received my copy of "Daily Life in Byzantium" but
                                  > > haven't
                                  > > > > > > had time to read much. However, the couple of snippits I have
                                  > > glanced
                                  > > > > > > at have me a little upset!
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > It's astounding how much information there is out there on
                                  > > Classical
                                  > > > > > > Rome. Every aspect of daily life is written about... from what
                                  > > > > went on
                                  > > > > > > in the baths, to how they cooked, gardened, dressed, made cloth,
                                  > > > > > > organized their homes, did art, etc. etc.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Byzantium? Well, who would bother to write about that!
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > It occured to me that I didn't even know if the Byzantines
                                  > > used Roman
                                  > > > > > > style baths. I looked it up online.. got ONE Wikipedia article
                                  > > > > about a
                                  > > > > > > bath house in Constantinople, that was burned down in the Nika
                                  > > riots
                                  > > > > > > and was "later rebuilt."
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > That's it.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > So far the Daily Life book is a gem, even though it's
                                  > > certainly not
                                  > > > > > > exhaustive in detail itself.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Anyway, the answer to my question was... the Byzantines pretty
                                  > > much
                                  > > > > > > kept up the Roman public bath system. It was common for
                                  > > Citizens in
                                  > > > > > > Constantinople to visit the baths twice a day, but three times was
                                  > > > > > > considered a bit decadant. The men and women bathed at different
                                  > > > > times
                                  > > > > > > because morals had changed a bit... but it all remained pretty
                                  > > much
                                  > > > > > > Roman for many centuries.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > It's the little details that make things interesting to the
                                  > > public I
                                  > > > > > > think. I've seen people really interested in the Roman baths, and
                                  > > > > it's
                                  > > > > > > amazing to see that the subject is ignored in Byzantium... simply
                                  > > > > > > because it was the *Eastern* empire.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Lots of cultural work to be done here I think! :)
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > -Marcus Cassius Julianus
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Amma Ulfsson
                                  To spear things while cooking makes perfect sense, but the fork with which you eat food came to us thanks to the Byzantines. Of course, it was a woman. Just
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Dec 14, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    To spear things while cooking makes perfect sense, but the fork with which you eat food came to us thanks to the Byzantines. Of course, it was a woman.
                                    Just one little article....
                                    http://mybyzantine.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/byzantine-women-%E2%80%93-the-princess-theophano-and-introducing-the-fork-into-europe/
                                    He who attains love cannot fall.
                                    
                                    —Saint Macarius the Great

                                    On 12/14/2010 4:28 AM, Timothy Dawson wrote:  

                                    On 14 Dec 2010, at 04:59, Amma Ulfsson wrote:
                                    > In fact, the fork began as a sharpened end to a spoon which they
                                    would 'spear' their food with.

                                    Where on earth did you get this bizarre idea? The two pronged fork as
                                    a cooking utensil existed as far back as Classical Greece. When it
                                    jumped from kitchen to table is presently uncertain (prior to the C4th
                                    CE, apparently), but I do suspect some Persian influence as it seems
                                    to have been confined to the East. Eating forks with more than two
                                    prongs post-date 1453.

                                    Timotheos

                                  • Belle Morte Statia
                                    You know I think it s safe to say.. Madam Amma puts my Lady Medievalist Mum almost to shame. Can I adopt you? seriously :-) ~Altessa Aeternia ... You know I
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Dec 14, 2010
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                                      You know I think it's safe to say..  Madam Amma puts my Lady Medievalist Mum almost to shame.


                                      Can I adopt you?  seriously :-)


                                      ~Altessa Aeternia

                                      On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 9:59 PM, Amma Ulfsson <ammaulfsson@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      I'm so glad you asked! LOL Well, the Byzantines invented marzipan and the fork, so we know they were not untalented when it came to eating! In fact, the fork began as a sharpened end to a spoon which they would 'spear' their food with. It then developed into the 3, 4 and 5-prong forks.

                                       Sauces were typically made of vinegar with either oil or honey, and they enjoyed walnuts, capers, dried fruits and citrus. The common cheeses were called prophatos and mizithra cheese. Breads were a necessary staple, so much so that bakers and their animals were exempt from any public duty at all, and they were the only ones! The herbs and spices were perhaps the most amazing things- not only were Roman spices in use, but also carroway, nutmeg, cinnamon, anise, mastic, cumin and more. They were the first to mix sweet and savory and the first to use saffron in cooking!

                                      Meat was typically pork, although lamb was also eaten. The wealthy hunted gazelle and wild ass, and the Imperial Court kept lands for such hunting! Salted mullet roe that was pressed into a dry sausage of sorts was eaten, with caviar used commonly by the 1100s. On Orthodox fast days, no meat or fish was usually eaten and instead, they ate pease pudding with nutmeg. Millet porridge called piston was also commonly eaten throughout the week, and millet is very good for you! Typically during the medieval period, beef was cooked with verjuice, which provided a bit of acid to deal with the typical issue of old meat. I always add a bit of balsamic or red wine vinegar to my beef roasts to enhance the flavor. I redacted a medieval roast recipe for the crock pot, and it's delicious every time! :)

                                      Wines were resinated, much like retsina today, or sweet, like a muscato yum!). Poushka (Roman posca) was also common. Honeywine (mead) was as common as everywhere else, and was used to flavor foods!

                                       Rose sugar was a common sweet, and of course, the cult of St. Nicholas invented the gingerbread cookie!

                                      Ah, and I'm adding black-eyed peas with a vinegar and honey sauce to the menu, along with chichees- add a couple of cups of cooked chick peas (garbanzos) to a pan and cover half the peas with water. Pour in just enough olive oil to cover the peas and toss in several cloves of roasted garlic. A couple of hours on a low setting, and yum.

                                      And, as Marcus Audens and I have been discussing, olive oil was used not only for food, but for bathing as well! Oil was perfumed with herbs and spices to help overcome the smells of a world without Tide and deodorant, and the body would be rubbed in warm oil and scraped clean.


                                      Blessings,
                                      Amma

                                      He who attains love cannot fall.
                                      
                                      —Saint Macarius the Great

                                      On 12/13/2010 1:55 PM, damnnedbeloved wrote:
                                       

                                      Khairete,

                                      So just out of curiousity, what was the cuisine like back then?

                                      Pax,
                                      Aeternia

                                      --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com, Amma Ulfsson <ammaulfsson@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Greetings dear Cassius,
                                      >
                                      > It seems as though soap was widely in use, but so was olive oil and
                                      > strigil bathing. Olive oil is one of the best things you can use on your
                                      > skin. In ancient times it was not only used for cleansing the body, but
                                      > it was also used medicinally and as an aphrodisiac! Most women know the
                                      > benefits of warm olive oil on dry skin or hair.
                                      >
                                      > On a side note, I'm considering making our Christmas dinner all
                                      > Byzantine this year. Anyone else?
                                      >
                                      > Amma
                                      >
                                      > He who attains love cannot fall.
                                      >
                                      > ---Saint Macarius the Great
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On 12/11/2010 9:09 PM, Cassius wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Greetings Amma,
                                      > >
                                      > > I think "Daily Life in Byzantium" is out of print, but I'm sure a copy
                                      > > can still be found through Amazon, eBay or other online source. That's
                                      > > where I got my copy, lol!
                                      > >
                                      > > I've always wanted to have my own Roman bath as well. One thing I've
                                      > > really always wanted is a strigil... I'd actually use the thing!
                                      > >
                                      > > Even speaking of that, the lack of Byzantine detail is maddening. Did
                                      > > the Byzantines use oil and a strigil to remove dirt before bathing? Or
                                      > > did soap come into vogue sometime during the Byzantine period? I'll
                                      > > have to look that up!
                                      > >
                                      > > -Cassius
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > <mailto:ByzantiumNovumCulture%40yahoogroups.com>, Amma Ulfsson
                                      > > <ammaulfsson@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I have always wanted a Roman-style bath of my own! Of course, I need
                                      > > the
                                      > > > huge home to put it in first! No, it certainly wouldn't be public! :)
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I have been doing some reading to brush up on my cooking and food
                                      > > > knowledge, so I'll be interested to hear about more of what this book
                                      > > > offers! And I'll be looking for that book myself!
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Blessings,
                                      > > > Amma
                                      > > >
                                      > > > He who attains love cannot fall.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > ---Saint Macarius the Great
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > On 12/8/2010 8:38 PM, Cassius wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Greetings all,
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I finally received my copy of "Daily Life in Byzantium" but haven't
                                      > > > > had time to read much. However, the couple of snippits I have glanced
                                      > > > > at have me a little upset!
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > It's astounding how much information there is out there on Classical
                                      > > > > Rome. Every aspect of daily life is written about... from what
                                      > > went on
                                      > > > > in the baths, to how they cooked, gardened, dressed, made cloth,
                                      > > > > organized their homes, did art, etc. etc.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Byzantium? Well, who would bother to write about that!
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > It occured to me that I didn't even know if the Byzantines used Roman
                                      > > > > style baths. I looked it up online.. got ONE Wikipedia article
                                      > > about a
                                      > > > > bath house in Constantinople, that was burned down in the Nika riots
                                      > > > > and was "later rebuilt."
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > That's it.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > So far the Daily Life book is a gem, even though it's certainly not
                                      > > > > exhaustive in detail itself.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Anyway, the answer to my question was... the Byzantines pretty much
                                      > > > > kept up the Roman public bath system. It was common for Citizens in
                                      > > > > Constantinople to visit the baths twice a day, but three times was
                                      > > > > considered a bit decadant. The men and women bathed at different
                                      > > times
                                      > > > > because morals had changed a bit... but it all remained pretty much
                                      > > > > Roman for many centuries.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > It's the little details that make things interesting to the public I
                                      > > > > think. I've seen people really interested in the Roman baths, and
                                      > > it's
                                      > > > > amazing to see that the subject is ignored in Byzantium... simply
                                      > > > > because it was the *Eastern* empire.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Lots of cultural work to be done here I think! :)
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > -Marcus Cassius Julianus
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >


                                    • Amma Ulfsson
                                      You flatter me unnecessarily, my dear. And certainly, I am up for adoption! One rule, you must let me cook! He who attains love cannot fall. —Saint Macarius
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Dec 15, 2010
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                                        You flatter me unnecessarily, my dear. And certainly, I am up for adoption! One rule, you must let me cook!
                                        He who attains love cannot fall.
                                        
                                        —Saint Macarius the Great

                                        On 12/14/2010 10:23 PM, Belle Morte Statia wrote:  

                                        You know I think it's safe to say..  Madam Amma puts my Lady Medievalist Mum almost to shame.


                                        Can I adopt you?  seriously :-)


                                        ~Altessa Aeternia

                                        On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 9:59 PM, Amma Ulfsson <ammaulfsson@...> wrote:
                                         

                                        I'm so glad you asked! LOL Well, the Byzantines invented marzipan and the fork, so we know they were not untalented when it came to eating! In fact, the fork began as a sharpened end to a spoon which they would 'spear' their food with. It then developed into the 3, 4 and 5-prong forks.

                                         Sauces were typically made of vinegar with either oil or honey, and they enjoyed walnuts, capers, dried fruits and citrus. The common cheeses were called prophatos and mizithra cheese. Breads were a necessary staple, so much so that bakers and their animals were exempt from any public duty at all, and they were the only ones! The herbs and spices were perhaps the most amazing things- not only were Roman spices in use, but also carroway, nutmeg, cinnamon, anise, mastic, cumin and more. They were the first to mix sweet and savory and the first to use saffron in cooking!

                                        Meat was typically pork, although lamb was also eaten. The wealthy hunted gazelle and wild ass, and the Imperial Court kept lands for such hunting! Salted mullet roe that was pressed into a dry sausage of sorts was eaten, with caviar used commonly by the 1100s. On Orthodox fast days, no meat or fish was usually eaten and instead, they ate pease pudding with nutmeg. Millet porridge called piston was also commonly eaten throughout the week, and millet is very good for you! Typically during the medieval period, beef was cooked with verjuice, which provided a bit of acid to deal with the typical issue of old meat. I always add a bit of balsamic or red wine vinegar to my beef roasts to enhance the flavor. I redacted a medieval roast recipe for the crock pot, and it's delicious every time! :)

                                        Wines were resinated, much like retsina today, or sweet, like a muscato yum!). Poushka (Roman posca) was also common. Honeywine (mead) was as common as everywhere else, and was used to flavor foods!

                                         Rose sugar was a common sweet, and of course, the cult of St. Nicholas invented the gingerbread cookie!

                                        Ah, and I'm adding black-eyed peas with a vinegar and honey sauce to the menu, along with chichees- add a couple of cups of cooked chick peas (garbanzos) to a pan and cover half the peas with water. Pour in just enough olive oil to cover the peas and toss in several cloves of roasted garlic. A couple of hours on a low setting, and yum.

                                        And, as Marcus Audens and I have been discussing, olive oil was used not only for food, but for bathing as well! Oil was perfumed with herbs and spices to help overcome the smells of a world without Tide and deodorant, and the body would be rubbed in warm oil and scraped clean.


                                        Blessings,
                                        Amma

                                        He who attains love cannot fall.
                                        
                                        —Saint Macarius the Great

                                        On 12/13/2010 1:55 PM, damnnedbeloved wrote:
                                         

                                        Khairete,

                                        So just out of curiousity, what was the cuisine like back then?

                                        Pax,
                                        Aeternia

                                        --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com, Amma Ulfsson <ammaulfsson@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Greetings dear Cassius,
                                        >
                                        > It seems as though soap was widely in use, but so was olive oil and
                                        > strigil bathing. Olive oil is one of the best things you can use on your
                                        > skin. In ancient times it was not only used for cleansing the body, but
                                        > it was also used medicinally and as an aphrodisiac! Most women know the
                                        > benefits of warm olive oil on dry skin or hair.
                                        >
                                        > On a side note, I'm considering making our Christmas dinner all
                                        > Byzantine this year. Anyone else?
                                        >
                                        > Amma
                                        >
                                        > He who attains love cannot fall.
                                        >
                                        > ---Saint Macarius the Great
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On 12/11/2010 9:09 PM, Cassius wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Greetings Amma,
                                        > >
                                        > > I think "Daily Life in Byzantium" is out of print, but I'm sure a copy
                                        > > can still be found through Amazon, eBay or other online source. That's
                                        > > where I got my copy, lol!
                                        > >
                                        > > I've always wanted to have my own Roman bath as well. One thing I've
                                        > > really always wanted is a strigil... I'd actually use the thing!
                                        > >
                                        > > Even speaking of that, the lack of Byzantine detail is maddening. Did
                                        > > the Byzantines use oil and a strigil to remove dirt before bathing? Or
                                        > > did soap come into vogue sometime during the Byzantine period? I'll
                                        > > have to look that up!
                                        > >
                                        > > -Cassius
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > <mailto:ByzantiumNovumCulture%40yahoogroups.com>, Amma Ulfsson
                                        > > <ammaulfsson@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I have always wanted a Roman-style bath of my own! Of course, I need
                                        > > the
                                        > > > huge home to put it in first! No, it certainly wouldn't be public! :)
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I have been doing some reading to brush up on my cooking and food
                                        > > > knowledge, so I'll be interested to hear about more of what this book
                                        > > > offers! And I'll be looking for that book myself!
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Blessings,
                                        > > > Amma
                                        > > >
                                        > > > He who attains love cannot fall.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > ---Saint Macarius the Great
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > On 12/8/2010 8:38 PM, Cassius wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Greetings all,
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I finally received my copy of "Daily Life in Byzantium" but haven't
                                        > > > > had time to read much. However, the couple of snippits I have glanced
                                        > > > > at have me a little upset!
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > It's astounding how much information there is out there on Classical
                                        > > > > Rome. Every aspect of daily life is written about... from what
                                        > > went on
                                        > > > > in the baths, to how they cooked, gardened, dressed, made cloth,
                                        > > > > organized their homes, did art, etc. etc.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Byzantium? Well, who would bother to write about that!
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > It occured to me that I didn't even know if the Byzantines used Roman
                                        > > > > style baths. I looked it up online.. got ONE Wikipedia article
                                        > > about a
                                        > > > > bath house in Constantinople, that was burned down in the Nika riots
                                        > > > > and was "later rebuilt."
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > That's it.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > So far the Daily Life book is a gem, even though it's certainly not
                                        > > > > exhaustive in detail itself.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Anyway, the answer to my question was... the Byzantines pretty much
                                        > > > > kept up the Roman public bath system. It was common for Citizens in
                                        > > > > Constantinople to visit the baths twice a day, but three times was
                                        > > > > considered a bit decadant. The men and women bathed at different
                                        > > times
                                        > > > > because morals had changed a bit... but it all remained pretty much
                                        > > > > Roman for many centuries.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > It's the little details that make things interesting to the public I
                                        > > > > think. I've seen people really interested in the Roman baths, and
                                        > > it's
                                        > > > > amazing to see that the subject is ignored in Byzantium... simply
                                        > > > > because it was the *Eastern* empire.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Lots of cultural work to be done here I think! :)
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > -Marcus Cassius Julianus
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >


                                      • damnnedbeloved
                                        I dubbeth thee Mummy. ~~Aeternia
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Dec 16, 2010
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                                          I dubbeth thee Mummy.


                                          ~~Aeternia

                                          --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com, Amma Ulfsson <ammaulfsson@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > You flatter me unnecessarily, my dear. And certainly, I am up for
                                          > adoption! One rule, you must let me cook!
                                          >
                                          > He who attains love cannot fall.
                                          >
                                          > â€"Saint Macarius the Great
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Amma Ulfsson
                                          I am honored! :) He who attains love cannot fall. ... I am honored! :) He who attains love cannot fall. Saint Macarius the Great On 12/16/2010 9:49 AM,
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Dec 19, 2010
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                                            I am honored! :)
                                            He who attains love cannot fall.
                                            
                                            —Saint Macarius the Great

                                            On 12/16/2010 9:49 AM, damnnedbeloved wrote:
                                             

                                            I dubbeth thee Mummy.

                                            ~~Aeternia

                                            --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com, Amma Ulfsson <ammaulfsson@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > You flatter me unnecessarily, my dear. And certainly, I am up for
                                            > adoption! One rule, you must let me cook!
                                            >
                                            > He who attains love cannot fall.
                                            >
                                            > â€"Saint Macarius the Great
                                            >
                                            >

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