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Re: [ByzantiumNovumCulture] "Taters 'n Peas" / Mustard; with Lady Amma's substtitutions and suggestions

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  • Amma Doukaina
    Please don t stop sending things in! I m sure this was a reply based on his not seeing any other replies. I hope you ll continue to send things in for The
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 19 12:00 AM
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      Please don't stop sending things in! I'm sure this was a reply based on
      his not seeing any other replies. I hope you'll continue to send things in
      for The Basilica, Senator. I especially love the recipes!!! :)

      Blessings,
      Amma




      On Sun, 09 Sep 2012 18:43:40 -0400, James Mathews <JLMTopog@...>
      wrote:

      > Hrafn the Varangian;
      >
      > I am well aware of what was available in Byzantium. As I mentioned to
      > Lady Amma I suggested that some substitutions be made from her
      > knowledge and skill at cooking. Since I have seen no evidence of your
      > involvement in this area, I wonder at your authority to correct my
      > efforts. Perhaps if you acquired all the information related to such
      > rather than just a part of it, you would not have embarrassed yourself.
      >
      > I responded to Lady Amma's request with a recipe that I came up with,
      > and asked for her substitutions for food not known in Byzantium.
      > However, apparently in your eagerness to correct me you didn't get
      > that part of it. Typical in people who try to embarrass others.
      >
      > I guess that I will not contribute further to Lady amma's "Bascilicum"
      > as I am not eager to undergo such corrections from people who do not
      > have the whole story.
      >
      > Marcus Audens
      >
      >
      > On Sep 3, 2012, at 9:10 PM, Hrafn the Varangian wrote:
      >
      >>
      >> One problem: potatoes were unknown to the Romans and Byzantines.
      >> They would come to Europe from South America in the New World.
      >>
      >> --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com, James Mathews
      >> <JLMTopog@...> wrote:
      >> >
      >> > Lady Amma;
      >> >
      >> > In response to your request for something to put into the "Basilica"
      >> > newsletter, I will be pleased to share my recently developed recipe
      >> > which is really good (in my view ) at any meal:
      >> >
      >> > "Taters 'n Peas"
      >> > --Three medium potatoes peeled and sliced (1/4" thick);
      >> > --Three cups of fresh peas;
      >> > --One cup of onions sliced small;
      >> > --Two cups of pork or fowl gravy;
      >> > --Three tablespoons of margarine, oil, or butter;
      >> > --Salt and Pepper to taste;
      >> > --Water to cover the mixture;
      >> >
      >> > Put the Potatoes and Onions in a medium sized oven-safe bowl, add
      >> the
      >> > peas, and add water to cover the potato / pea mixture. Add the oil
      >> > and the gravy. Salt and Pepper to taste and stir until well mixed.
      >> > Put in the heated oven (hot enough to boil water) for 15 minutes
      >> > loosely covered with a dish (saucer). Put the bowl on a plate as the
      >> > mixture has a tendency to expand when heated. After the 10 minutes
      >> > remove from the oven, and wrap the bowl and saucer in a towel and
      >> > leave for four hours. This will finish bringing the potatoes and
      >> peas
      >> > to the right consistency. Serve with your favorite meat and salad.
      >> >
      >> > I like three slices of corned beef, with mustard and a small Cob
      >> > Salad, sweet wine vinaigrette, together with grape juice (or wine).
      >> >
      >> > Suitable Substitutions are encouraged for the above recipe as
      >> > desired. You may use either or both of these recipes.
      >> > ==============
      >> >
      >> > Mustard (sinapi):
      >> >
      >> > Just as it does today, the word mustard referred to the plant, its
      >> > seeds, and the hot / spicy sauce made from them. The romans made
      >> > mustard much as we do:
      >> >
      >> > Mustard seed is carefully cleaned and sieved. Then the seed is
      >> > washed in cold water and soaked for two hours. It is then taken out
      >> > and the water is squeezed out by hand. Put the seed into a new or
      >> > cleaned mortar and pound it with a pestle. When the mustard is
      >> > finely ground, put it in the middle of the mortar and press it down
      >> > with the palm of the hand. Once it has been pressed flat, make
      >> > some incisions in it. Place
      >> > a few burning coals on top of it, and pour over soda water, to draw
      >> > out the bitterness and pallor from the mustard. Then lift the mortar
      >> > and pour out the soda water. Add strong vinegar and mix it through
      >> > the mustard with the mortar.
      >> >
      >> > Columella recommends that the mustard be mixed with ground almonds
      >> and
      >> > pine kernels.
      >> >
      >> > --Reference:--
      >> > Patrick Faas, "Around The Roman Table; Food and Feasting in Ancient
      >> > Rome," (U of Chicago Press -- 1994), Page 160
      >> >
      >> > Respectfully;
      >> >
      >> > Marcus Audens
      >> >
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >


      --
      Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit.


      Hestia, you who tend the holy house of the lord Apollo, the Far-shooter at
      goodly Pytho, with soft oil dripping ever from your locks, come now into
      this house, come, having one mind with Zeus the all-wise, draw near, and
      withal bestow grace upon my song.
      -Homer- Hymn 24 to Hestia
    • James Mathews
      Lady Amma; The vegetables that you mention was exactly what I was looking for. I am not familiar with Taro, and so I wanted to learn a bit about it. Where
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 21 3:10 AM
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        Lady Amma;

        The vegetables that you mention was exactly what I was looking for. I
        am not familiar with Taro, and so I wanted to learn a bit about it.
        Where better to look than to the Lady Amma?

        How can I refuse such a nicely worded request from a very special
        Lady? I will rescind my last and keep things going since you have
        requested such. I trust that if I mention something not known in BN
        that perhaps you would be kind enough to let me know a satisfactory
        replacement or substitute that I may learn from a "Master-Chef!!" I
        am still working on my training (Grin!).

        This is one of the things that urks me to some extent, is someone who
        points out another's errors, but offers nothing themselves.

        Respectfully;

        Marcus Audens

        On Sep 19, 2012, at 2:57 AM, Amma Doukaina wrote:

        > Yes, parsnips, carrots, turnips would have all been good
        > substitutes. Taro
        > was used by the Romans much like we use potatoes, so that seems the
        > best
        > substitute for them. The beauty of medieval cooking is that many
        > things
        > can be used/replaced and often were! It was about what was available
        > to
        > eat, and it often all got thrown in the pot with the leftovers to
        > keep a
        > good stew going.
        > Thank you!
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 13:55:38 -0400, James Mathews <JLMTopog@...
        > >
        > wrote:
        >
        >> Lady Amma;
        >>
        >> As I mentioned in the below recioe, Substitutions are encouraged for
        >> the recipe. I am aware that potatoes were not used in the Byzantine
        >> Times, however, what would have been a suitable substtitute?
        >> Turnips?, Beetroot?, Carrot?, Parsnip?, Taro?, Flower Bulb?,
        >> Artichoke?, Cardoon?, Leek?, Courgettes?, Cabbage?, Cauliflower?,
        >> Broccoli?, Brussel Sprouts?, or Mushrooms?
        >>
        >> Here s another recipe that you can use:
        >>
        >> Patina of Stinging Nettles
        >>
        >> Use only the light green shoots that grow in the Spring, and later in
        >> the year when the plant has been cut back.
        >>
        >> Aspicius wrote:
        >>
        >> "Pluck the wild stinging nettle when the sun is in the sign of the
        >> ram
        >> and use against sickness as you wish. (Ap. 102)
        >>
        >> He also gives a recipe:
        >>
        >> Warm or cold patina of stinging nettle: Take the stinging nettles,
        >> wash them, allow to drain and leave to dry on a board. Chop finely.
        >> Grind 6.8 grams of pepper, moisten with garum and stir. Add 90 ml of
        >> garum and 164ml of oil. Bring to a boil in a pot. Once it has
        >> boiled, remove from pot and leave to cool. Then oil a patina pan.
        >> Break 8 eggs and beat them. Put everything in the patina pan and
        >> place in the hot ashes so that it is heated both above and below.
        >> When it is cooked, sprinkle ground pepper over it and serve.
        >>
        >> Respectfully;
        >>
        >> Marcus Audens
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> On Sep 3, 2012, at 9:35 PM, Amma Doukaina wrote:
        >>
        >>> Since potatoes weren't part of the Byzantine diet, I think I'll keep
        >>> that
        >>> one out, but I will add in that mustard recipe!
        >>> Thank you! I'm going to have to try to make that mustard!
        >>>
        >>> Amma
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 16:37:24 -0400, James Mathews <JLMTopog@...
        >>>>
        >>> wrote:
        >>>
        >>>> Lady Amma;
        >>>>
        >>>> In response to your request for something to put into the
        >>>> "Basilica"
        >>>> newsletter, I will be pleased to share my recently developed
        >>>> recipe
        >>>> which is really good (in my view ) at any meal:
        >>>>
        >>>> "Taters 'n Peas"
        >>>> --Three medium potatoes peeled and sliced (1/4" thick);
        >>>> --Three cups of fresh peas;
        >>>> --One cup of onions sliced small;
        >>>> --Two cups of pork or fowl gravy;
        >>>> --Three tablespoons of margarine, oil, or butter;
        >>>> --Salt and Pepper to taste;
        >>>> --Water to cover the mixture;
        >>>>
        >>>> Put the Potatoes and Onions in a medium sized oven-safe bowl, add
        >>>> the
        >>>> peas, and add water to cover the potato / pea mixture. Add the oil
        >>>> and the gravy. Salt and Pepper to taste and stir until well mixed.
        >>>> Put in the heated oven (hot enough to boil water) for 15 minutes
        >>>> loosely covered with a dish (saucer). Put the bowl on a plate as
        >>>> the
        >>>> mixture has a tendency to expand when heated. After the 10 minutes
        >>>> remove from the oven, and wrap the bowl and saucer in a towel and
        >>>> leave for four hours. This will finish bringing the potatoes and
        >>>> peas
        >>>> to the right consistency. Serve with your favorite meat and salad.
        >>>>
        >>>> I like three slices of corned beef, with mustard and a small Cob
        >>>> Salad, sweet wine vinaigrette, together with grape juice (or wine).
        >>>>
        >>>> Suitable Substitutions are encouraged for the above recipe as
        >>>> desired. You may use either or both of these recipes.
        >>>> ==============
        >>>>
        >>>> Mustard (sinapi):
        >>>>
        >>>> Just as it does today, the word mustard referred to the plant, its
        >>>> seeds, and the hot / spicy sauce made from them. The romans made
        >>>> mustard much as we do:
        >>>>
        >>>> Mustard seed is carefully cleaned and sieved. Then the seed is
        >>>> washed in cold water and soaked for two hours. It is then taken
        >>>> out
        >>>> and the water is squeezed out by hand. Put the seed into a new or
        >>>> cleaned mortar and pound it with a pestle. When the mustard is
        >>>> finely ground, put it in the middle of the mortar and press it down
        >>>> with the palm of the hand. Once it has been pressed flat, make
        >>>> some incisions in it.
        >>>> Place
        >>>> a few burning coals on top of it, and pour over soda water, to draw
        >>>> out the bitterness and pallor from the mustard. Then lift the
        >>>> mortar
        >>>> and pour out the soda water. Add strong vinegar and mix it
        >>>> through
        >>>> the mustard with the mortar.
        >>>>
        >>>> Columella recommends that the mustard be mixed with ground almonds
        >>>> and
        >>>> pine kernels.
        >>>>
        >>>> --Reference:--
        >>>> Patrick Faas, "Around The Roman Table; Food and Feasting in Ancient
        >>>> Rome," (U of Chicago Press -- 1994), Page 160
        >>>>
        >>>> Respectfully;
        >>>>
        >>>> Marcus Audens
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> --
        >>> Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit.
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> Hestia, you who tend the holy house of the lord Apollo, the Far-
        >>> shooter at
        >>> goodly Pytho, with soft oil dripping ever from your locks, come now
        >>> into
        >>> this house, come, having one mind with Zeus the all-wise, draw near,
        >>> and
        >>> withal bestow grace upon my song.
        >>> -Homer- Hymn 24 to Hestia
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> ------------------------------------
        >>>
        >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>
        >
        >
        > --
        > Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit.
        >
        >
        > Hestia, you who tend the holy house of the lord Apollo, the Far-
        > shooter at
        > goodly Pytho, with soft oil dripping ever from your locks, come now
        > into
        > this house, come, having one mind with Zeus the all-wise, draw near,
        > and
        > withal bestow grace upon my song.
        > -Homer- Hymn 24 to Hestia
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • Amma Doukaina
        Well, I suppose we re all guilty of missing something sometimes, especially in emails; I know I am.. I could talk your ear off about medieval cooking, but
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 21 9:41 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          Well, I suppose we're all guilty of missing something sometimes, especially in emails; I know I am.. I could talk your ear off about medieval cooking, but sometimes it just blows past my brain in emails! I am certain there was no harm meant. I appreciate the recipes you send, and with a little thought, just about anything can be made medieval. That's what I love about cooking! You can easily move things around and make something fit various times and cultures! 

          I'm happy to help find info for you any time! I admit that my knowledge of taro is a bit limited, but my understanding is that it's peeled, soaked overnight and then sliced or chunked up like a potato. I think I'd use parsnips just because they're easier to find in the market. I'm not a fan of turnips, although they'd work great too in that recipe!

          Glad you chose to continue to be involved. As a totally useless side note, I have a HUGE pot of Italian gravy on the stove. I got about 10 lbs of fresh tomatoes yesterday for free from my local fruit/veg stand folks (a nice older couple who use their garage to sell their garden goods). I couldn't resist making a big ol' pot of sauce! 

          Blessings as always,
          Amma


          On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 06:10:51 -0400, James Mathews <JLMTopog@...> wrote:

           

          Lady Amma;

          The vegetables that you mention was exactly what I was looking for. I
          am not familiar with Taro, and so I wanted to learn a bit about it.
          Where better to look than to the Lady Amma?

          How can I refuse such a nicely worded request from a very special
          Lady? I will rescind my last and keep things going since you have
          requested such. I trust that if I mention something not known in BN
          that perhaps you would be kind enough to let me know a satisfactory
          replacement or substitute that I may learn from a "Master-Chef!!" I
          am still working on my training (Grin!).

          This is one of the things that urks me to some extent, is someone who
          points out another's errors, but offers nothing themselves.

          Respectfully;

          Marcus Audens

          On Sep 19, 2012, at 2:57 AM, Amma Doukaina wrote:

          > Yes, parsnips, carrots, turnips would have all been good
          > substitutes. Taro
          > was used by the Romans much like we use potatoes, so that seems the
          > best
          > substitute for them. The beauty of medieval cooking is that many
          > things
          > can be used/replaced and often were! It was about what was available
          > to
          > eat, and it often all got thrown in the pot with the leftovers to
          > keep a
          > good stew going.
          > Thank you!
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 13:55:38 -0400, James Mathews <JLMTopog@...
          > >
          > wrote:
          >
          >> Lady Amma;
          >>
          >> As I mentioned in the below recioe, Substitutions are encouraged for
          >> the recipe. I am aware that potatoes were not used in the Byzantine
          >> Times, however, what would have been a suitable substtitute?
          >> Turnips?, Beetroot?, Carrot?, Parsnip?, Taro?, Flower Bulb?,
          >> Artichoke?, Cardoon?, Leek?, Courgettes?, Cabbage?, Cauliflower?,
          >> Broccoli?, Brussel Sprouts?, or Mushrooms?
          >>
          >> Here s another recipe that you can use:
          >>
          >> Patina of Stinging Nettles
          >>
          >> Use only the light green shoots that grow in the Spring, and later in
          >> the year when the plant has been cut back.
          >>
          >> Aspicius wrote:
          >>
          >> "Pluck the wild stinging nettle when the sun is in the sign of the
          >> ram
          >> and use against sickness as you wish. (Ap. 102)
          >>
          >> He also gives a recipe:
          >>
          >> Warm or cold patina of stinging nettle: Take the stinging nettles,
          >> wash them, allow to drain and leave to dry on a board. Chop finely.
          >> Grind 6.8 grams of pepper, moisten with garum and stir. Add 90 ml of
          >> garum and 164ml of oil. Bring to a boil in a pot. Once it has
          >> boiled, remove from pot and leave to cool. Then oil a patina pan.
          >> Break 8 eggs and beat them. Put everything in the patina pan and
          >> place in the hot ashes so that it is heated both above and below.
          >> When it is cooked, sprinkle ground pepper over it and serve.
          >>
          >> Respectfully;
          >>
          >> Marcus Audens
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> On Sep 3, 2012, at 9:35 PM, Amma Doukaina wrote:
          >>
          >>> Since potatoes weren't part of the Byzantine diet, I think I'll keep
          >>> that
          >>> one out, but I will add in that mustard recipe!
          >>> Thank you! I'm going to have to try to make that mustard!
          >>>
          >>> Amma
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 16:37:24 -0400, James Mathews <JLMTopog@...
          >>>>
          >>> wrote:
          >>>
          >>>> Lady Amma;
          >>>>
          >>>> In response to your request for something to put into the
          >>>> "Basilica"
          >>>> newsletter, I will be pleased to share my recently developed
          >>>> recipe
          >>>> which is really good (in my view ) at any meal:
          >>>>
          >>>> "Taters 'n Peas"
          >>>> --Three medium potatoes peeled and sliced (1/4" thick);
          >>>> --Three cups of fresh peas;
          >>>> --One cup of onions sliced small;
          >>>> --Two cups of pork or fowl gravy;
          >>>> --Three tablespoons of margarine, oil, or butter;
          >>>> --Salt and Pepper to taste;
          >>>> --Water to cover the mixture;
          >>>>
          >>>> Put the Potatoes and Onions in a medium sized oven-safe bowl, add
          >>>> the
          >>>> peas, and add water to cover the potato / pea mixture. Add the oil
          >>>> and the gravy. Salt and Pepper to taste and stir until well mixed.
          >>>> Put in the heated oven (hot enough to boil water) for 15 minutes
          >>>> loosely covered with a dish (saucer). Put the bowl on a plate as
          >>>> the
          >>>> mixture has a tendency to expand when heated. After the 10 minutes
          >>>> remove from the oven, and wrap the bowl and saucer in a towel and
          >>>> leave for four hours. This will finish bringing the potatoes and
          >>>> peas
          >>>> to the right consistency. Serve with your favorite meat and salad.
          >>>>
          >>>> I like three slices of corned beef, with mustard and a small Cob
          >>>> Salad, sweet wine vinaigrette, together with grape juice (or wine).
          >>>>
          >>>> Suitable Substitutions are encouraged for the above recipe as
          >>>> desired. You may use either or both of these recipes.
          >>>> ==============
          >>>>
          >>>> Mustard (sinapi):
          >>>>
          >>>> Just as it does today, the word mustard referred to the plant, its
          >>>> seeds, and the hot / spicy sauce made from them. The romans made
          >>>> mustard much as we do:
          >>>>
          >>>> Mustard seed is carefully cleaned and sieved. Then the seed is
          >>>> washed in cold water and soaked for two hours. It is then taken
          >>>> out
          >>>> and the water is squeezed out by hand. Put the seed into a new or
          >>>> cleaned mortar and pound it with a pestle. When the mustard is
          >>>> finely ground, put it in the middle of the mortar and press it down
          >>>> with the palm of the hand. Once it has been pressed flat, make
          >>>> some incisions in it.
          >>>> Place
          >>>> a few burning coals on top of it, and pour over soda water, to draw
          >>>> out the bitterness and pallor from the mustard. Then lift the
          >>>> mortar
          >>>> and pour out the soda water. Add strong vinegar and mix it
          >>>> through
          >>>> the mustard with the mortar.
          >>>>
          >>>> Columella recommends that the mustard be mixed with ground almonds
          >>>> and
          >>>> pine kernels.
          >>>>
          >>>> --Reference:--
          >>>> Patrick Faas, "Around The Roman Table; Food and Feasting in Ancient
          >>>> Rome," (U of Chicago Press -- 1994), Page 160
          >>>>
          >>>> Respectfully;
          >>>>
          >>>> Marcus Audens
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> --
          >>> Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit.
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> Hestia, you who tend the holy house of the lord Apollo, the Far-
          >>> shooter at
          >>> goodly Pytho, with soft oil dripping ever from your locks, come now
          >>> into
          >>> this house, come, having one mind with Zeus the all-wise, draw near,
          >>> and
          >>> withal bestow grace upon my song.
          >>> -Homer- Hymn 24 to Hestia
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> ------------------------------------
          >>>
          >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>
          >
          >
          > --
          > Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit.
          >
          >
          > Hestia, you who tend the holy house of the lord Apollo, the Far-
          > shooter at
          > goodly Pytho, with soft oil dripping ever from your locks, come now
          > into
          > this house, come, having one mind with Zeus the all-wise, draw near,
          > and
          > withal bestow grace upon my song.
          > -Homer- Hymn 24 to Hestia
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >




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