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Re: "Taters 'n Peas" / Mustard

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  • Hrafn the Varangian
    One problem: potatoes were unknown to the Romans and Byzantines. They would come to Europe from South America in the New World.
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 3, 2012
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      One problem: potatoes were unknown to the Romans and Byzantines. They would come to Europe from South America in the New World.


      --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com, James Mathews <JLMTopog@...> wrote:
      >
      > Lady Amma;
      >
      > In response to your request for something to put into the "Basilica"
      > newsletter, I will be pleased to share my recently developed recipe
      > which is really good (in my view ) at any meal:
      >
      > "Taters 'n Peas"
      > --Three medium potatoes peeled and sliced (1/4" thick);
      > --Three cups of fresh peas;
      > --One cup of onions sliced small;
      > --Two cups of pork or fowl gravy;
      > --Three tablespoons of margarine, oil, or butter;
      > --Salt and Pepper to taste;
      > --Water to cover the mixture;
      >
      > Put the Potatoes and Onions in a medium sized oven-safe bowl, add the
      > peas, and add water to cover the potato / pea mixture. Add the oil
      > and the gravy. Salt and Pepper to taste and stir until well mixed.
      > Put in the heated oven (hot enough to boil water) for 15 minutes
      > loosely covered with a dish (saucer). Put the bowl on a plate as the
      > mixture has a tendency to expand when heated. After the 10 minutes
      > remove from the oven, and wrap the bowl and saucer in a towel and
      > leave for four hours. This will finish bringing the potatoes and peas
      > to the right consistency. Serve with your favorite meat and salad.
      >
      > I like three slices of corned beef, with mustard and a small Cob
      > Salad, sweet wine vinaigrette, together with grape juice (or wine).
      >
      > Suitable Substitutions are encouraged for the above recipe as
      > desired. You may use either or both of these recipes.
      > ==============
      >
      > Mustard (sinapi):
      >
      > Just as it does today, the word mustard referred to the plant, its
      > seeds, and the hot / spicy sauce made from them. The romans made
      > mustard much as we do:
      >
      > Mustard seed is carefully cleaned and sieved. Then the seed is
      > washed in cold water and soaked for two hours. It is then taken out
      > and the water is squeezed out by hand. Put the seed into a new or
      > cleaned mortar and pound it with a pestle. When the mustard is
      > finely ground, put it in the middle of the mortar and press it down
      > with the palm of the hand. Once it has been pressed flat, make
      > some incisions in it. Place
      > a few burning coals on top of it, and pour over soda water, to draw
      > out the bitterness and pallor from the mustard. Then lift the mortar
      > and pour out the soda water. Add strong vinegar and mix it through
      > the mustard with the mortar.
      >
      > Columella recommends that the mustard be mixed with ground almonds and
      > pine kernels.
      >
      > --Reference:--
      > Patrick Faas, "Around The Roman Table; Food and Feasting in Ancient
      > Rome," (U of Chicago Press -- 1994), Page 160
      >
      > Respectfully;
      >
      > Marcus Audens
      >
    • James Mathews
      Greetings All; In the below recipe I should have included a reference in order to be exacting about these things: Patrick Faas, Around The Roman Table; Food
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 4, 2012
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        Greetings All;

        In the below recipe I should have included a reference in order to be exacting about these things:

        Patrick Faas, "Around The Roman Table; Food and Feasting In Ancient Rome," (Univ. of Chicago Press -- 1994), Pages 230-231.

        I hit the send button too soon, being anxious for my lunch, as my lovely wife has just returned from her errands in town.

        Respectfully;

        Marcus Audens


        On Sep 4, 2012, at 1:55 PM, James Mathews wrote:

        Lady Amma;


        As I mentioned in the below recipe, Substitutions are encouraged for the recipe.  I am aware that potatoes were not used in the Byzantine Times, however, what would have been a suitable substitute?  Turnips?, Beetroot?, Carrot?, Parsnip?, Taro?, Flower Bulb?, Artichoke?, Cardoon?, Leek?, Courgettes?, Cabbage?, Cauliflower?, Broccoli?, Brussel Sprouts?, or Mushrooms?

        Here s another recipe that you can use:

        Patina of Stinging Nettles

        Use only the light green shoots that grow in the Spring, and later in the year when the plant has been cut back.

        Aspicius wrote:

        "Pluck the wild stinging nettle when the sun is in the sign of the ram and use against sickness as you wish." (Ap. 102)

        He also gives a recipe:

        Warm or cold patina of stinging nettle: Take the stinging nettles, wash them, allow to drain and leave to dry on a board.  Chop finely.  Grind 6.8 grams of pepper, moisten with garum and stir.  Add 90 ml of garum and 164 ml of oil.  Bring to a boil in a pot.  Once it has boiled, remove from pot and leave to cool.  Then oil a patina pan.  Break 8 eggs and beat them.  Put everything in the patina pan and place in the hot ashes so that it is heated both above and below.  When it is cooked, sprinkle ground pepper over it and serve.

        Respectfully;

        Marcus Audens



         

      • Amma Doukaina
        Indeed! Where was my brain!?!? I will add in the substitution possibilities! My apologies! Amma On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 13:55:38 -0400, James Mathews
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 4, 2012
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          Indeed! Where was my brain!?!? I will add in the substitution
          possibilities! My apologies!

          Amma

          On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 13:55:38 -0400, James Mathews <JLMTopog@...>
          wrote:

          > Lady Amma;
          >
          > As I mentioned in the below recioe, Substitutions are encouraged for
          > the recipe. I am aware that potatoes were not used in the Byzantine
          > Times, however, what would have been a suitable substtitute?
          > Turnips?, Beetroot?, Carrot?, Parsnip?, Taro?, Flower Bulb?,
          > Artichoke?, Cardoon?, Leek?, Courgettes?, Cabbage?, Cauliflower?,
          > Broccoli?, Brussel Sprouts?, or Mushrooms?
          >
          > Here s another recipe that you can use:
          >
          > Patina of Stinging Nettles
          >
          > Use only the light green shoots that grow in the Spring, and later in
          > the year when the plant has been cut back.
          >
          > Aspicius wrote:
          >
          > "Pluck the wild stinging nettle when the sun is in the sign of the ram
          > and use against sickness as you wish. (Ap. 102)
          >
          > He also gives a recipe:
          >
          > Warm or cold patina of stinging nettle: Take the stinging nettles,
          > wash them, allow to drain and leave to dry on a board. Chop finely.
          > Grind 6.8 grams of pepper, moisten with garum and stir. Add 90 ml of
          > garum and 164ml of oil. Bring to a boil in a pot. Once it has
          > boiled, remove from pot and leave to cool. Then oil a patina pan.
          > Break 8 eggs and beat them. Put everything in the patina pan and
          > place in the hot ashes so that it is heated both above and below.
          > When it is cooked, sprinkle ground pepper over it and serve.
          >
          > Respectfully;
          >
          > Marcus Audens
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > On Sep 3, 2012, at 9:35 PM, Amma Doukaina wrote:
          >
          >> Since potatoes weren't part of the Byzantine diet, I think I'll keep
          >> that
          >> one out, but I will add in that mustard recipe!
          >> Thank you! I'm going to have to try to make that mustard!
          >>
          >> Amma
          >>
          >>
          >> On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 16:37:24 -0400, James Mathews <JLMTopog@...
          >> >
          >> wrote:
          >>
          >>> Lady Amma;
          >>>
          >>> In response to your request for something to put into the "Basilica"
          >>> newsletter, I will be pleased to share my recently developed recipe
          >>> which is really good (in my view ) at any meal:
          >>>
          >>> "Taters 'n Peas"
          >>> --Three medium potatoes peeled and sliced (1/4" thick);
          >>> --Three cups of fresh peas;
          >>> --One cup of onions sliced small;
          >>> --Two cups of pork or fowl gravy;
          >>> --Three tablespoons of margarine, oil, or butter;
          >>> --Salt and Pepper to taste;
          >>> --Water to cover the mixture;
          >>>
          >>> Put the Potatoes and Onions in a medium sized oven-safe bowl, add the
          >>> peas, and add water to cover the potato / pea mixture. Add the oil
          >>> and the gravy. Salt and Pepper to taste and stir until well mixed.
          >>> Put in the heated oven (hot enough to boil water) for 15 minutes
          >>> loosely covered with a dish (saucer). Put the bowl on a plate as the
          >>> mixture has a tendency to expand when heated. After the 10 minutes
          >>> remove from the oven, and wrap the bowl and saucer in a towel and
          >>> leave for four hours. This will finish bringing the potatoes and
          >>> peas
          >>> to the right consistency. Serve with your favorite meat and salad.
          >>>
          >>> I like three slices of corned beef, with mustard and a small Cob
          >>> Salad, sweet wine vinaigrette, together with grape juice (or wine).
          >>>
          >>> Suitable Substitutions are encouraged for the above recipe as
          >>> desired. You may use either or both of these recipes.
          >>> ==============
          >>>
          >>> Mustard (sinapi):
          >>>
          >>> Just as it does today, the word mustard referred to the plant, its
          >>> seeds, and the hot / spicy sauce made from them. The romans made
          >>> mustard much as we do:
          >>>
          >>> Mustard seed is carefully cleaned and sieved. Then the seed is
          >>> washed in cold water and soaked for two hours. It is then taken out
          >>> and the water is squeezed out by hand. Put the seed into a new or
          >>> cleaned mortar and pound it with a pestle. When the mustard is
          >>> finely ground, put it in the middle of the mortar and press it down
          >>> with the palm of the hand. Once it has been pressed flat, make
          >>> some incisions in it.
          >>> Place
          >>> a few burning coals on top of it, and pour over soda water, to draw
          >>> out the bitterness and pallor from the mustard. Then lift the mortar
          >>> and pour out the soda water. Add strong vinegar and mix it through
          >>> the mustard with the mortar.
          >>>
          >>> Columella recommends that the mustard be mixed with ground almonds
          >>> and
          >>> pine kernels.
          >>>
          >>> --Reference:--
          >>> Patrick Faas, "Around The Roman Table; Food and Feasting in Ancient
          >>> Rome," (U of Chicago Press -- 1994), Page 160
          >>>
          >>> Respectfully;
          >>>
          >>> Marcus Audens
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>
          >>
          >> --
          >> Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit.
          >>
          >>
          >> Hestia, you who tend the holy house of the lord Apollo, the Far-
          >> shooter at
          >> goodly Pytho, with soft oil dripping ever from your locks, come now
          >> into
          >> this house, come, having one mind with Zeus the all-wise, draw near,
          >> and
          >> withal bestow grace upon my song.
          >> -Homer- Hymn 24 to Hestia
          >>
          >>
          >> ------------------------------------
          >>
          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >


          --
          Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit.


          Hestia, you who tend the holy house of the lord Apollo, the Far-shooter at
          goodly Pytho, with soft oil dripping ever from your locks, come now into
          this house, come, having one mind with Zeus the all-wise, draw near, and
          withal bestow grace upon my song.
          -Homer- Hymn 24 to Hestia
        • James Mathews
          Lady Amma; My purpose in asking the below question was not critical in any way. I know a little about cooking, but not much (Grin!!). However, I wouldn t know
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 4, 2012
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            Lady Amma;

            My purpose in asking the below question was not critical in any way.  I know a little about cooking, but not much (Grin!!).  However, I wouldn't know a Cardoon, if it slapped me in the face.  I am pretty much aware of what turnips, carrot, and the last six will give me were I to use them in place of the potatoes, but Beetroot, Parsnip, Taro, Flower Bulb, Artichoke, Cardoon, Leek , and Courgettes, I have never used in a combined dish such as "Taters and Peas."  I know what an artichoke is, and have baked them as an addition to a salad, but not to take the place of potatoes.  Leeks I suppose could be used as the onion in that recipe and based on what little I know about Flower Bulb I would definitely want to try it in small portions until I know what I am doing based on what Faas has to say about them, and what little has been indicated on TV shows about wilderness survival!!!!  Based on what I know now, my guess would have to be Carrots and Cauliflower because of the sweetness of carrot and the current recipe of Mock Potatoes, which uses Cauliflower as a substitute for Potatoes.  The reference I gave mentions Taro (colocasia) as, "Peel taro, cut it up and boil it like a potato.  Aspicius suggests the following sauce: pepper, honey, cumin, garum then bind with amulum when the potatoes are boiling."

            Respectfully;

            Marcus Audens

                
            On Sep 4, 2012, at 5:01 PM, Amma Doukaina wrote:

            Indeed! Where was my brain!?!? I will add in the substitution  
            possibilities! My apologies!

            Amma

            On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 13:55:38 -0400, James Mathews <JLMTopog@...>  
            wrote:

            Lady Amma;

            As I mentioned in the below recioe, Substitutions are encouraged for
            the recipe.  I am aware that potatoes were not used in the Byzantine
            Times, however, what would have been a suitable substtitute?
            Turnips?, Beetroot?, Carrot?, Parsnip?, Taro?, Flower Bulb?,
            Artichoke?, Cardoon?, Leek?, Courgettes?, Cabbage?, Cauliflower?,
            Broccoli?, Brussel Sprouts?, or Mushrooms?

            H
          • James Mathews
            Hrafn the Varangian; I am well aware of what was available in Byzantium. As I mentioned to Lady Amma I suggested that some substitutions be made from her
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 9, 2012
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              Hrafn the Varangian;

              I am well aware of what was available in Byzantium.  As I mentioned to Lady Amma I suggested that some substitutions be made from her knowledge and skill at cooking.  Since I have seen no evidence of your involvement in this area, I wonder at your  authority to correct my efforts.  Perhaps if you acquired all the information related to such rather than just a part of it, you would not have embarrassed yourself.

              I responded to Lady Amma's request with a recipe that I came up with, and asked for her substitutions for food not known in Byzantium.  However, apparently in your eagerness to correct me you didn't get that part of it.   Typical in people who try to embarrass others.  

              I guess that I will not contribute further to Lady amma's "Bascilicum" as I am not eager to undergo such corrections from people who do not have the whole story.

              Marcus Audens


              On Sep 3, 2012, at 9:10 PM, Hrafn the Varangian wrote:


              One problem: potatoes were unknown to the Romans and Byzantines. They would come to Europe from South America in the New World.

              --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com, James Mathews <JLMTopog@...> wrote:
              >
              > Lady Amma;
              > 
              > In response to your request for something to put into the "Basilica" 
              > newsletter, I will be pleased to share my recently developed recipe 
              > which is really good (in my view ) at any meal:
              > 
              > "Taters 'n Peas"
              > --Three medium potatoes peeled and sliced (1/4" thick);
              > --Three cups of fresh peas;
              > --One cup of onions sliced small;
              > --Two cups of pork or fowl gravy;
              > --Three tablespoons of margarine, oil, or butter;
              > --Salt and Pepper to taste;
              > --Water to cover the mixture;
              > 
              > Put the Potatoes and Onions in a medium sized oven-safe bowl, add the 
              > peas, and add water to cover the potato / pea mixture. Add the oil 
              > and the gravy. Salt and Pepper to taste and stir until well mixed. 
              > Put in the heated oven (hot enough to boil water) for 15 minutes 
              > loosely covered with a dish (saucer). Put the bowl on a plate as the 
              > mixture has a tendency to expand when heated. After the 10 minutes 
              > remove from the oven, and wrap the bowl and saucer in a towel and 
              > leave for four hours. This will finish bringing the potatoes and peas 
              > to the right consistency. Serve with your favorite meat and salad.
              > 
              > I like three slices of corned beef, with mustard and a small Cob 
              > Salad, sweet wine vinaigrette, together with grape juice (or wine).
              > 
              > Suitable Substitutions are encouraged for the above recipe as 
              > desired. You may use either or both of these recipes.
              > ==============
              > 
              > Mustard (sinapi):
              > 
              > Just as it does today, the word mustard referred to the plant, its 
              > seeds, and the hot / spicy sauce made from them. The romans made 
              > mustard much as we do:
              > 
              > Mustard seed is carefully cleaned and sieved. Then the seed is 
              > washed in cold water and soaked for two hours. It is then taken out 
              > and the water is squeezed out by hand. Put the seed into a new or
              > cleaned mortar and pound it with a pestle. When the mustard is 
              > finely ground, put it in the middle of the mortar and press it down 
              > with the palm of the hand. Once it has been pressed flat, make 
              > some incisions in it. Place 
              > a few burning coals on top of it, and pour over soda water, to draw 
              > out the bitterness and pallor from the mustard. Then lift the mortar 
              > and pour out the soda water. Add strong vinegar and mix it through 
              > the mustard with the mortar.
              > 
              > Columella recommends that the mustard be mixed with ground almonds and 
              > pine kernels.
              > 
              > --Reference:--
              > Patrick Faas, "Around The Roman Table; Food and Feasting in Ancient 
              > Rome," (U of Chicago Press -- 1994), Page 160
              > 
              > Respectfully;
              > 
              > Marcus Audens
              >


            • Amma Doukaina
              Yes, parsnips, carrots, turnips would have all been good substitutes. Taro was used by the Romans much like we use potatoes, so that seems the best substitute
              Message 6 of 18 , Sep 18, 2012
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                Yes, parsnips, carrots, turnips would have all been good substitutes. Taro
                was used by the Romans much like we use potatoes, so that seems the best
                substitute for them. The beauty of medieval cooking is that many things
                can be used/replaced and often were! It was about what was available to
                eat, and it often all got thrown in the pot with the leftovers to keep a
                good stew going.
                Thank you!




                On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 13:55:38 -0400, James Mathews <JLMTopog@...>
                wrote:

                > Lady Amma;
                >
                > As I mentioned in the below recioe, Substitutions are encouraged for
                > the recipe. I am aware that potatoes were not used in the Byzantine
                > Times, however, what would have been a suitable substtitute?
                > Turnips?, Beetroot?, Carrot?, Parsnip?, Taro?, Flower Bulb?,
                > Artichoke?, Cardoon?, Leek?, Courgettes?, Cabbage?, Cauliflower?,
                > Broccoli?, Brussel Sprouts?, or Mushrooms?
                >
                > Here s another recipe that you can use:
                >
                > Patina of Stinging Nettles
                >
                > Use only the light green shoots that grow in the Spring, and later in
                > the year when the plant has been cut back.
                >
                > Aspicius wrote:
                >
                > "Pluck the wild stinging nettle when the sun is in the sign of the ram
                > and use against sickness as you wish. (Ap. 102)
                >
                > He also gives a recipe:
                >
                > Warm or cold patina of stinging nettle: Take the stinging nettles,
                > wash them, allow to drain and leave to dry on a board. Chop finely.
                > Grind 6.8 grams of pepper, moisten with garum and stir. Add 90 ml of
                > garum and 164ml of oil. Bring to a boil in a pot. Once it has
                > boiled, remove from pot and leave to cool. Then oil a patina pan.
                > Break 8 eggs and beat them. Put everything in the patina pan and
                > place in the hot ashes so that it is heated both above and below.
                > When it is cooked, sprinkle ground pepper over it and serve.
                >
                > Respectfully;
                >
                > Marcus Audens
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > On Sep 3, 2012, at 9:35 PM, Amma Doukaina wrote:
                >
                >> Since potatoes weren't part of the Byzantine diet, I think I'll keep
                >> that
                >> one out, but I will add in that mustard recipe!
                >> Thank you! I'm going to have to try to make that mustard!
                >>
                >> Amma
                >>
                >>
                >> On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 16:37:24 -0400, James Mathews <JLMTopog@...
                >> >
                >> wrote:
                >>
                >>> Lady Amma;
                >>>
                >>> In response to your request for something to put into the "Basilica"
                >>> newsletter, I will be pleased to share my recently developed recipe
                >>> which is really good (in my view ) at any meal:
                >>>
                >>> "Taters 'n Peas"
                >>> --Three medium potatoes peeled and sliced (1/4" thick);
                >>> --Three cups of fresh peas;
                >>> --One cup of onions sliced small;
                >>> --Two cups of pork or fowl gravy;
                >>> --Three tablespoons of margarine, oil, or butter;
                >>> --Salt and Pepper to taste;
                >>> --Water to cover the mixture;
                >>>
                >>> Put the Potatoes and Onions in a medium sized oven-safe bowl, add the
                >>> peas, and add water to cover the potato / pea mixture. Add the oil
                >>> and the gravy. Salt and Pepper to taste and stir until well mixed.
                >>> Put in the heated oven (hot enough to boil water) for 15 minutes
                >>> loosely covered with a dish (saucer). Put the bowl on a plate as the
                >>> mixture has a tendency to expand when heated. After the 10 minutes
                >>> remove from the oven, and wrap the bowl and saucer in a towel and
                >>> leave for four hours. This will finish bringing the potatoes and
                >>> peas
                >>> to the right consistency. Serve with your favorite meat and salad.
                >>>
                >>> I like three slices of corned beef, with mustard and a small Cob
                >>> Salad, sweet wine vinaigrette, together with grape juice (or wine).
                >>>
                >>> Suitable Substitutions are encouraged for the above recipe as
                >>> desired. You may use either or both of these recipes.
                >>> ==============
                >>>
                >>> Mustard (sinapi):
                >>>
                >>> Just as it does today, the word mustard referred to the plant, its
                >>> seeds, and the hot / spicy sauce made from them. The romans made
                >>> mustard much as we do:
                >>>
                >>> Mustard seed is carefully cleaned and sieved. Then the seed is
                >>> washed in cold water and soaked for two hours. It is then taken out
                >>> and the water is squeezed out by hand. Put the seed into a new or
                >>> cleaned mortar and pound it with a pestle. When the mustard is
                >>> finely ground, put it in the middle of the mortar and press it down
                >>> with the palm of the hand. Once it has been pressed flat, make
                >>> some incisions in it.
                >>> Place
                >>> a few burning coals on top of it, and pour over soda water, to draw
                >>> out the bitterness and pallor from the mustard. Then lift the mortar
                >>> and pour out the soda water. Add strong vinegar and mix it through
                >>> the mustard with the mortar.
                >>>
                >>> Columella recommends that the mustard be mixed with ground almonds
                >>> and
                >>> pine kernels.
                >>>
                >>> --Reference:--
                >>> Patrick Faas, "Around The Roman Table; Food and Feasting in Ancient
                >>> Rome," (U of Chicago Press -- 1994), Page 160
                >>>
                >>> Respectfully;
                >>>
                >>> Marcus Audens
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>
                >>
                >> --
                >> Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit.
                >>
                >>
                >> Hestia, you who tend the holy house of the lord Apollo, the Far-
                >> shooter at
                >> goodly Pytho, with soft oil dripping ever from your locks, come now
                >> into
                >> this house, come, having one mind with Zeus the all-wise, draw near,
                >> and
                >> withal bestow grace upon my song.
                >> -Homer- Hymn 24 to Hestia
                >>
                >>
                >> ------------------------------------
                >>
                >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >


                --
                Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit.


                Hestia, you who tend the holy house of the lord Apollo, the Far-shooter at
                goodly Pytho, with soft oil dripping ever from your locks, come now into
                this house, come, having one mind with Zeus the all-wise, draw near, and
                withal bestow grace upon my song.
                -Homer- Hymn 24 to Hestia
              • Amma Doukaina
                Please don t stop sending things in! I m sure this was a reply based on his not seeing any other replies. I hope you ll continue to send things in for The
                Message 7 of 18 , Sep 19, 2012
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                  Please don't stop sending things in! I'm sure this was a reply based on
                  his not seeing any other replies. I hope you'll continue to send things in
                  for The Basilica, Senator. I especially love the recipes!!! :)

                  Blessings,
                  Amma




                  On Sun, 09 Sep 2012 18:43:40 -0400, James Mathews <JLMTopog@...>
                  wrote:

                  > Hrafn the Varangian;
                  >
                  > I am well aware of what was available in Byzantium. As I mentioned to
                  > Lady Amma I suggested that some substitutions be made from her
                  > knowledge and skill at cooking. Since I have seen no evidence of your
                  > involvement in this area, I wonder at your authority to correct my
                  > efforts. Perhaps if you acquired all the information related to such
                  > rather than just a part of it, you would not have embarrassed yourself.
                  >
                  > I responded to Lady Amma's request with a recipe that I came up with,
                  > and asked for her substitutions for food not known in Byzantium.
                  > However, apparently in your eagerness to correct me you didn't get
                  > that part of it. Typical in people who try to embarrass others.
                  >
                  > I guess that I will not contribute further to Lady amma's "Bascilicum"
                  > as I am not eager to undergo such corrections from people who do not
                  > have the whole story.
                  >
                  > Marcus Audens
                  >
                  >
                  > On Sep 3, 2012, at 9:10 PM, Hrafn the Varangian wrote:
                  >
                  >>
                  >> One problem: potatoes were unknown to the Romans and Byzantines.
                  >> They would come to Europe from South America in the New World.
                  >>
                  >> --- In ByzantiumNovumCulture@yahoogroups.com, James Mathews
                  >> <JLMTopog@...> wrote:
                  >> >
                  >> > Lady Amma;
                  >> >
                  >> > In response to your request for something to put into the "Basilica"
                  >> > newsletter, I will be pleased to share my recently developed recipe
                  >> > which is really good (in my view ) at any meal:
                  >> >
                  >> > "Taters 'n Peas"
                  >> > --Three medium potatoes peeled and sliced (1/4" thick);
                  >> > --Three cups of fresh peas;
                  >> > --One cup of onions sliced small;
                  >> > --Two cups of pork or fowl gravy;
                  >> > --Three tablespoons of margarine, oil, or butter;
                  >> > --Salt and Pepper to taste;
                  >> > --Water to cover the mixture;
                  >> >
                  >> > Put the Potatoes and Onions in a medium sized oven-safe bowl, add
                  >> the
                  >> > peas, and add water to cover the potato / pea mixture. Add the oil
                  >> > and the gravy. Salt and Pepper to taste and stir until well mixed.
                  >> > Put in the heated oven (hot enough to boil water) for 15 minutes
                  >> > loosely covered with a dish (saucer). Put the bowl on a plate as the
                  >> > mixture has a tendency to expand when heated. After the 10 minutes
                  >> > remove from the oven, and wrap the bowl and saucer in a towel and
                  >> > leave for four hours. This will finish bringing the potatoes and
                  >> peas
                  >> > to the right consistency. Serve with your favorite meat and salad.
                  >> >
                  >> > I like three slices of corned beef, with mustard and a small Cob
                  >> > Salad, sweet wine vinaigrette, together with grape juice (or wine).
                  >> >
                  >> > Suitable Substitutions are encouraged for the above recipe as
                  >> > desired. You may use either or both of these recipes.
                  >> > ==============
                  >> >
                  >> > Mustard (sinapi):
                  >> >
                  >> > Just as it does today, the word mustard referred to the plant, its
                  >> > seeds, and the hot / spicy sauce made from them. The romans made
                  >> > mustard much as we do:
                  >> >
                  >> > Mustard seed is carefully cleaned and sieved. Then the seed is
                  >> > washed in cold water and soaked for two hours. It is then taken out
                  >> > and the water is squeezed out by hand. Put the seed into a new or
                  >> > cleaned mortar and pound it with a pestle. When the mustard is
                  >> > finely ground, put it in the middle of the mortar and press it down
                  >> > with the palm of the hand. Once it has been pressed flat, make
                  >> > some incisions in it. Place
                  >> > a few burning coals on top of it, and pour over soda water, to draw
                  >> > out the bitterness and pallor from the mustard. Then lift the mortar
                  >> > and pour out the soda water. Add strong vinegar and mix it through
                  >> > the mustard with the mortar.
                  >> >
                  >> > Columella recommends that the mustard be mixed with ground almonds
                  >> and
                  >> > pine kernels.
                  >> >
                  >> > --Reference:--
                  >> > Patrick Faas, "Around The Roman Table; Food and Feasting in Ancient
                  >> > Rome," (U of Chicago Press -- 1994), Page 160
                  >> >
                  >> > Respectfully;
                  >> >
                  >> > Marcus Audens
                  >> >
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >


                  --
                  Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit.


                  Hestia, you who tend the holy house of the lord Apollo, the Far-shooter at
                  goodly Pytho, with soft oil dripping ever from your locks, come now into
                  this house, come, having one mind with Zeus the all-wise, draw near, and
                  withal bestow grace upon my song.
                  -Homer- Hymn 24 to Hestia
                • James Mathews
                  Lady Amma; The vegetables that you mention was exactly what I was looking for. I am not familiar with Taro, and so I wanted to learn a bit about it. Where
                  Message 8 of 18 , Sep 21, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Lady Amma;

                    The vegetables that you mention was exactly what I was looking for. I
                    am not familiar with Taro, and so I wanted to learn a bit about it.
                    Where better to look than to the Lady Amma?

                    How can I refuse such a nicely worded request from a very special
                    Lady? I will rescind my last and keep things going since you have
                    requested such. I trust that if I mention something not known in BN
                    that perhaps you would be kind enough to let me know a satisfactory
                    replacement or substitute that I may learn from a "Master-Chef!!" I
                    am still working on my training (Grin!).

                    This is one of the things that urks me to some extent, is someone who
                    points out another's errors, but offers nothing themselves.

                    Respectfully;

                    Marcus Audens

                    On Sep 19, 2012, at 2:57 AM, Amma Doukaina wrote:

                    > Yes, parsnips, carrots, turnips would have all been good
                    > substitutes. Taro
                    > was used by the Romans much like we use potatoes, so that seems the
                    > best
                    > substitute for them. The beauty of medieval cooking is that many
                    > things
                    > can be used/replaced and often were! It was about what was available
                    > to
                    > eat, and it often all got thrown in the pot with the leftovers to
                    > keep a
                    > good stew going.
                    > Thank you!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 13:55:38 -0400, James Mathews <JLMTopog@...
                    > >
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    >> Lady Amma;
                    >>
                    >> As I mentioned in the below recioe, Substitutions are encouraged for
                    >> the recipe. I am aware that potatoes were not used in the Byzantine
                    >> Times, however, what would have been a suitable substtitute?
                    >> Turnips?, Beetroot?, Carrot?, Parsnip?, Taro?, Flower Bulb?,
                    >> Artichoke?, Cardoon?, Leek?, Courgettes?, Cabbage?, Cauliflower?,
                    >> Broccoli?, Brussel Sprouts?, or Mushrooms?
                    >>
                    >> Here s another recipe that you can use:
                    >>
                    >> Patina of Stinging Nettles
                    >>
                    >> Use only the light green shoots that grow in the Spring, and later in
                    >> the year when the plant has been cut back.
                    >>
                    >> Aspicius wrote:
                    >>
                    >> "Pluck the wild stinging nettle when the sun is in the sign of the
                    >> ram
                    >> and use against sickness as you wish. (Ap. 102)
                    >>
                    >> He also gives a recipe:
                    >>
                    >> Warm or cold patina of stinging nettle: Take the stinging nettles,
                    >> wash them, allow to drain and leave to dry on a board. Chop finely.
                    >> Grind 6.8 grams of pepper, moisten with garum and stir. Add 90 ml of
                    >> garum and 164ml of oil. Bring to a boil in a pot. Once it has
                    >> boiled, remove from pot and leave to cool. Then oil a patina pan.
                    >> Break 8 eggs and beat them. Put everything in the patina pan and
                    >> place in the hot ashes so that it is heated both above and below.
                    >> When it is cooked, sprinkle ground pepper over it and serve.
                    >>
                    >> Respectfully;
                    >>
                    >> Marcus Audens
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> On Sep 3, 2012, at 9:35 PM, Amma Doukaina wrote:
                    >>
                    >>> Since potatoes weren't part of the Byzantine diet, I think I'll keep
                    >>> that
                    >>> one out, but I will add in that mustard recipe!
                    >>> Thank you! I'm going to have to try to make that mustard!
                    >>>
                    >>> Amma
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 16:37:24 -0400, James Mathews <JLMTopog@...
                    >>>>
                    >>> wrote:
                    >>>
                    >>>> Lady Amma;
                    >>>>
                    >>>> In response to your request for something to put into the
                    >>>> "Basilica"
                    >>>> newsletter, I will be pleased to share my recently developed
                    >>>> recipe
                    >>>> which is really good (in my view ) at any meal:
                    >>>>
                    >>>> "Taters 'n Peas"
                    >>>> --Three medium potatoes peeled and sliced (1/4" thick);
                    >>>> --Three cups of fresh peas;
                    >>>> --One cup of onions sliced small;
                    >>>> --Two cups of pork or fowl gravy;
                    >>>> --Three tablespoons of margarine, oil, or butter;
                    >>>> --Salt and Pepper to taste;
                    >>>> --Water to cover the mixture;
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Put the Potatoes and Onions in a medium sized oven-safe bowl, add
                    >>>> the
                    >>>> peas, and add water to cover the potato / pea mixture. Add the oil
                    >>>> and the gravy. Salt and Pepper to taste and stir until well mixed.
                    >>>> Put in the heated oven (hot enough to boil water) for 15 minutes
                    >>>> loosely covered with a dish (saucer). Put the bowl on a plate as
                    >>>> the
                    >>>> mixture has a tendency to expand when heated. After the 10 minutes
                    >>>> remove from the oven, and wrap the bowl and saucer in a towel and
                    >>>> leave for four hours. This will finish bringing the potatoes and
                    >>>> peas
                    >>>> to the right consistency. Serve with your favorite meat and salad.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> I like three slices of corned beef, with mustard and a small Cob
                    >>>> Salad, sweet wine vinaigrette, together with grape juice (or wine).
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Suitable Substitutions are encouraged for the above recipe as
                    >>>> desired. You may use either or both of these recipes.
                    >>>> ==============
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Mustard (sinapi):
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Just as it does today, the word mustard referred to the plant, its
                    >>>> seeds, and the hot / spicy sauce made from them. The romans made
                    >>>> mustard much as we do:
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Mustard seed is carefully cleaned and sieved. Then the seed is
                    >>>> washed in cold water and soaked for two hours. It is then taken
                    >>>> out
                    >>>> and the water is squeezed out by hand. Put the seed into a new or
                    >>>> cleaned mortar and pound it with a pestle. When the mustard is
                    >>>> finely ground, put it in the middle of the mortar and press it down
                    >>>> with the palm of the hand. Once it has been pressed flat, make
                    >>>> some incisions in it.
                    >>>> Place
                    >>>> a few burning coals on top of it, and pour over soda water, to draw
                    >>>> out the bitterness and pallor from the mustard. Then lift the
                    >>>> mortar
                    >>>> and pour out the soda water. Add strong vinegar and mix it
                    >>>> through
                    >>>> the mustard with the mortar.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Columella recommends that the mustard be mixed with ground almonds
                    >>>> and
                    >>>> pine kernels.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> --Reference:--
                    >>>> Patrick Faas, "Around The Roman Table; Food and Feasting in Ancient
                    >>>> Rome," (U of Chicago Press -- 1994), Page 160
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Respectfully;
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Marcus Audens
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> --
                    >>> Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit.
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> Hestia, you who tend the holy house of the lord Apollo, the Far-
                    >>> shooter at
                    >>> goodly Pytho, with soft oil dripping ever from your locks, come now
                    >>> into
                    >>> this house, come, having one mind with Zeus the all-wise, draw near,
                    >>> and
                    >>> withal bestow grace upon my song.
                    >>> -Homer- Hymn 24 to Hestia
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> ------------------------------------
                    >>>
                    >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit.
                    >
                    >
                    > Hestia, you who tend the holy house of the lord Apollo, the Far-
                    > shooter at
                    > goodly Pytho, with soft oil dripping ever from your locks, come now
                    > into
                    > this house, come, having one mind with Zeus the all-wise, draw near,
                    > and
                    > withal bestow grace upon my song.
                    > -Homer- Hymn 24 to Hestia
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Amma Doukaina
                    Well, I suppose we re all guilty of missing something sometimes, especially in emails; I know I am.. I could talk your ear off about medieval cooking, but
                    Message 9 of 18 , Sep 21, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Well, I suppose we're all guilty of missing something sometimes, especially in emails; I know I am.. I could talk your ear off about medieval cooking, but sometimes it just blows past my brain in emails! I am certain there was no harm meant. I appreciate the recipes you send, and with a little thought, just about anything can be made medieval. That's what I love about cooking! You can easily move things around and make something fit various times and cultures! 

                      I'm happy to help find info for you any time! I admit that my knowledge of taro is a bit limited, but my understanding is that it's peeled, soaked overnight and then sliced or chunked up like a potato. I think I'd use parsnips just because they're easier to find in the market. I'm not a fan of turnips, although they'd work great too in that recipe!

                      Glad you chose to continue to be involved. As a totally useless side note, I have a HUGE pot of Italian gravy on the stove. I got about 10 lbs of fresh tomatoes yesterday for free from my local fruit/veg stand folks (a nice older couple who use their garage to sell their garden goods). I couldn't resist making a big ol' pot of sauce! 

                      Blessings as always,
                      Amma


                      On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 06:10:51 -0400, James Mathews <JLMTopog@...> wrote:

                       

                      Lady Amma;

                      The vegetables that you mention was exactly what I was looking for. I
                      am not familiar with Taro, and so I wanted to learn a bit about it.
                      Where better to look than to the Lady Amma?

                      How can I refuse such a nicely worded request from a very special
                      Lady? I will rescind my last and keep things going since you have
                      requested such. I trust that if I mention something not known in BN
                      that perhaps you would be kind enough to let me know a satisfactory
                      replacement or substitute that I may learn from a "Master-Chef!!" I
                      am still working on my training (Grin!).

                      This is one of the things that urks me to some extent, is someone who
                      points out another's errors, but offers nothing themselves.

                      Respectfully;

                      Marcus Audens

                      On Sep 19, 2012, at 2:57 AM, Amma Doukaina wrote:

                      > Yes, parsnips, carrots, turnips would have all been good
                      > substitutes. Taro
                      > was used by the Romans much like we use potatoes, so that seems the
                      > best
                      > substitute for them. The beauty of medieval cooking is that many
                      > things
                      > can be used/replaced and often were! It was about what was available
                      > to
                      > eat, and it often all got thrown in the pot with the leftovers to
                      > keep a
                      > good stew going.
                      > Thank you!
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 13:55:38 -0400, James Mathews <JLMTopog@...
                      > >
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      >> Lady Amma;
                      >>
                      >> As I mentioned in the below recioe, Substitutions are encouraged for
                      >> the recipe. I am aware that potatoes were not used in the Byzantine
                      >> Times, however, what would have been a suitable substtitute?
                      >> Turnips?, Beetroot?, Carrot?, Parsnip?, Taro?, Flower Bulb?,
                      >> Artichoke?, Cardoon?, Leek?, Courgettes?, Cabbage?, Cauliflower?,
                      >> Broccoli?, Brussel Sprouts?, or Mushrooms?
                      >>
                      >> Here s another recipe that you can use:
                      >>
                      >> Patina of Stinging Nettles
                      >>
                      >> Use only the light green shoots that grow in the Spring, and later in
                      >> the year when the plant has been cut back.
                      >>
                      >> Aspicius wrote:
                      >>
                      >> "Pluck the wild stinging nettle when the sun is in the sign of the
                      >> ram
                      >> and use against sickness as you wish. (Ap. 102)
                      >>
                      >> He also gives a recipe:
                      >>
                      >> Warm or cold patina of stinging nettle: Take the stinging nettles,
                      >> wash them, allow to drain and leave to dry on a board. Chop finely.
                      >> Grind 6.8 grams of pepper, moisten with garum and stir. Add 90 ml of
                      >> garum and 164ml of oil. Bring to a boil in a pot. Once it has
                      >> boiled, remove from pot and leave to cool. Then oil a patina pan.
                      >> Break 8 eggs and beat them. Put everything in the patina pan and
                      >> place in the hot ashes so that it is heated both above and below.
                      >> When it is cooked, sprinkle ground pepper over it and serve.
                      >>
                      >> Respectfully;
                      >>
                      >> Marcus Audens
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> On Sep 3, 2012, at 9:35 PM, Amma Doukaina wrote:
                      >>
                      >>> Since potatoes weren't part of the Byzantine diet, I think I'll keep
                      >>> that
                      >>> one out, but I will add in that mustard recipe!
                      >>> Thank you! I'm going to have to try to make that mustard!
                      >>>
                      >>> Amma
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 16:37:24 -0400, James Mathews <JLMTopog@...
                      >>>>
                      >>> wrote:
                      >>>
                      >>>> Lady Amma;
                      >>>>
                      >>>> In response to your request for something to put into the
                      >>>> "Basilica"
                      >>>> newsletter, I will be pleased to share my recently developed
                      >>>> recipe
                      >>>> which is really good (in my view ) at any meal:
                      >>>>
                      >>>> "Taters 'n Peas"
                      >>>> --Three medium potatoes peeled and sliced (1/4" thick);
                      >>>> --Three cups of fresh peas;
                      >>>> --One cup of onions sliced small;
                      >>>> --Two cups of pork or fowl gravy;
                      >>>> --Three tablespoons of margarine, oil, or butter;
                      >>>> --Salt and Pepper to taste;
                      >>>> --Water to cover the mixture;
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Put the Potatoes and Onions in a medium sized oven-safe bowl, add
                      >>>> the
                      >>>> peas, and add water to cover the potato / pea mixture. Add the oil
                      >>>> and the gravy. Salt and Pepper to taste and stir until well mixed.
                      >>>> Put in the heated oven (hot enough to boil water) for 15 minutes
                      >>>> loosely covered with a dish (saucer). Put the bowl on a plate as
                      >>>> the
                      >>>> mixture has a tendency to expand when heated. After the 10 minutes
                      >>>> remove from the oven, and wrap the bowl and saucer in a towel and
                      >>>> leave for four hours. This will finish bringing the potatoes and
                      >>>> peas
                      >>>> to the right consistency. Serve with your favorite meat and salad.
                      >>>>
                      >>>> I like three slices of corned beef, with mustard and a small Cob
                      >>>> Salad, sweet wine vinaigrette, together with grape juice (or wine).
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Suitable Substitutions are encouraged for the above recipe as
                      >>>> desired. You may use either or both of these recipes.
                      >>>> ==============
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Mustard (sinapi):
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Just as it does today, the word mustard referred to the plant, its
                      >>>> seeds, and the hot / spicy sauce made from them. The romans made
                      >>>> mustard much as we do:
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Mustard seed is carefully cleaned and sieved. Then the seed is
                      >>>> washed in cold water and soaked for two hours. It is then taken
                      >>>> out
                      >>>> and the water is squeezed out by hand. Put the seed into a new or
                      >>>> cleaned mortar and pound it with a pestle. When the mustard is
                      >>>> finely ground, put it in the middle of the mortar and press it down
                      >>>> with the palm of the hand. Once it has been pressed flat, make
                      >>>> some incisions in it.
                      >>>> Place
                      >>>> a few burning coals on top of it, and pour over soda water, to draw
                      >>>> out the bitterness and pallor from the mustard. Then lift the
                      >>>> mortar
                      >>>> and pour out the soda water. Add strong vinegar and mix it
                      >>>> through
                      >>>> the mustard with the mortar.
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Columella recommends that the mustard be mixed with ground almonds
                      >>>> and
                      >>>> pine kernels.
                      >>>>
                      >>>> --Reference:--
                      >>>> Patrick Faas, "Around The Roman Table; Food and Feasting in Ancient
                      >>>> Rome," (U of Chicago Press -- 1994), Page 160
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Respectfully;
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Marcus Audens
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> --
                      >>> Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit.
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> Hestia, you who tend the holy house of the lord Apollo, the Far-
                      >>> shooter at
                      >>> goodly Pytho, with soft oil dripping ever from your locks, come now
                      >>> into
                      >>> this house, come, having one mind with Zeus the all-wise, draw near,
                      >>> and
                      >>> withal bestow grace upon my song.
                      >>> -Homer- Hymn 24 to Hestia
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> ------------------------------------
                      >>>
                      >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit.
                      >
                      >
                      > Hestia, you who tend the holy house of the lord Apollo, the Far-
                      > shooter at
                      > goodly Pytho, with soft oil dripping ever from your locks, come now
                      > into
                      > this house, come, having one mind with Zeus the all-wise, draw near,
                      > and
                      > withal bestow grace upon my song.
                      > -Homer- Hymn 24 to Hestia
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >




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