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dj in re

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  • Nancy Mayer
    I think that the english chapters in Grahams s book are less cohesive than the other ones. It is as if Graham can not make up his mind what he thinks about
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 4, 2001
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      I think that the english chapters in Grahams's book are less cohesive
      than the other ones. It is as if Graham can not make up his mind what he
      thinks about this society.To speak of Brummell and D'orsay in the same
      sentence is to blur the fact that they were almost a generation apart in
      their followers and their reigns were closer to a decade apart.
      though Graham does not say it in such bald terms but 1815 was a
      dividing year. many courses of modern world history start at the
      Congress of Vienna in 1815. That year ended england's isolation from the
      rest of the world.from 1816 on Englishmen (male and female) once again
      left their island to travel abroad.
      p. 165

      Despite its prevailing names, the Regency or "day of the dandies" was an
      age when influential women dominated society. The Duchess of Devonshire
      {though the important one died in 1806},Lady Holland {a divorcee who was
      not admitted to Almack's and not acceptable to all of society}, Lady
      Jersey {inherited a commercial bank and a fortune from her grandfather},
      Lady melbourne { byron's friend but even her own son -- husband of Lady
      caroline and later Lord Melbourne said "but not chaste, not chaste."}
      and the like were, within their limited realm , unchallenged powers
      during the age of Wellington and Brummell {he fled England because of
      debts about 1815}. Byron calls this state of affairs, "gynocrasy" in
      the English cantos where the ironic contrast between appearance and
      reality, pretense and passion, that characterized Regency society a
      whole culminate in the well wrought woman, who embodies both the last
      word on worldly excellence and the dangerous results of affirming
      artifice at the expense of natural impulse. end Graham


      I have never seen the people of these cantos as any thing different from
      jet setters in our own time or the prince of wales's set in Victorian
      days.
      That level of society always seems to want to set their own rules.
      America may not have a royal family or aristocracy but our movie and
      sports stars and so recording artists could give the supposedly depraved
      of previous days , lessons.

      Nancy
    • angela sigle
      ... Oh, I don t know about that... I was browsing a book today that I wondered if I should buy and bring before the group. It was The Sexual History of
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 4, 2001
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        > America may not have a royal family or aristocracy but our movie and
        > sports stars and so recording artists could give the supposedly depraved
        > of previous days , lessons.

        Oh, I don't know about that... I was browsing a book today that I wondered
        if I should buy and bring before the group. It was "The Sexual History of
        England" and had an entire chapter devoted to the procurement and
        defloration of virgins...Probably runs about the same. Ick!
        Anyway of course the Byron references were: 1. they defended him vede the
        separation scandal- on account of no proven charges- and
        2. I noticed that there was a tavern known as The Coal Hole- where a mock
        trial enacted the famous divorce cases of the day- and gave the "judgement"
        very graphically as to what the proceedings were really about. Could this
        be Annabella 's "even if I were in the coal-hole" reference? Anybody else
        heard something about a coal hole?
      • Nancy Mayer
        This is the first I have heard of a coal hole. also, though Augusta s mother was divorced by her husband before she married John Byron, divorces were
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 4, 2001
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          This is the first I have heard of a coal hole. also, though Augusta's
          mother was divorced by her husband before she married John Byron,
          divorces were infrequent. The time after the passage of the divorce bill
          in Victoria's day brought forth some lulus.
          Only two women were able to procure divorces before the late nineteenth
          century.
          There has been speculation that Annabelle separated because of sodomy.
          Some others say it was because he boasted of having had homosexual
          affairs and homosexuality was considered a vile crime and hanging
          offence. If he were insane she could forgive him-- if not she was so
          repulsed she could not bear to see him.
          It could just have been that he told her that in some places it was not
          considered a crime or immoral.

          In last week's newspaper there was a story about some men who had been
          prostituting 10 year olds.
          nancy
        • angela sigle
          I think I know who was responsible for the sodomy Rumors. D.L.Moore says that the mention of stays in Don Leon is an anachronism- unless some little (rhyme)
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 4, 2001
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            I think I know who was responsible for the sodomy Rumors. D.L.Moore says
            that the mention of "stays" in Don Leon is an anachronism- unless some
            little (rhyme) devil interested in sodomy was mocking Anabella's weight.
            Qui bono?
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Nancy Mayer <nmayer@...>
            To: <Byron@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 9:51 PM
            Subject: Re: [Byron] dj in re


            > This is the first I have heard of a coal hole. also, though Augusta's
            > mother was divorced by her husband before she married John Byron,
            > divorces were infrequent. The time after the passage of the divorce bill
            > in Victoria's day brought forth some lulus.
            > Only two women were able to procure divorces before the late nineteenth
            > century.
            > There has been speculation that Annabelle separated because of sodomy.
            > Some others say it was because he boasted of having had homosexual
            > affairs and homosexuality was considered a vile crime and hanging
            > offence. If he were insane she could forgive him-- if not she was so
            > repulsed she could not bear to see him.
            > It could just have been that he told her that in some places it was not
            > considered a crime or immoral.
            >
            > In last week's newspaper there was a story about some men who had been
            > prostituting 10 year olds.
            > nancy
            >
            > --------------------------------
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          • Nancy Mayer
            ... I do not see how the mention of stays could be an anachronism. a quote of the verse or the reference toD.L M s book, please. i thought Don Leon was
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 5, 2001
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              angela sigle wrote:
              >
              > I think I know who was responsible for the sodomy Rumors. D.L.Moore says
              > that the mention of "stays" in Don Leon is an anachronism- unless some
              > little (rhyme) devil interested in sodomy was mocking Anabella's weight.
              > Qui bono?
              >

              I do not see how the mention of stays could be an anachronism. a quote
              of the verse or the reference toD.L> M's book, please. i thought Don
              Leon was contemporary with Byron and regency women spoke of stays and
              wore them as well.
              Nancy
            • Anne Mott
              ... Don Leon has been dated to around 1830 I think - stays were out of fashion from about 1890 to 1810 (as a result of the French Revolution and the fashion
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 6, 2001
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                At 09:28 PM 3/5/01 -0500, you wrote:
                > thought Don
                >Leon was contemporary with Byron and regency women spoke of stays and
                >wore them as well.

                Don Leon has been dated to around 1830 I think - stays were "out of
                fashion" from about 1890 to 1810 (as a result of the French Revolution and
                the fashion for freedom in dress). Byron agreed to let his housemaids wear
                them with their uniforms "but not too low before" when he came back from
                his travels in 1811. From the gist of his letter it seems that Lucy and
                Bessie wanted to wear stays - maybe because they were more alluring than
                unsupported bosoms or perhaps ,conversely, because they were traditional -
                and he agreed.
              • Nancy Mayer
                The picture in Jane Austen and fashion and other books on fashion of the period, show women wearing stays. Though some of these were much smaller or lighter
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 6, 2001
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                  The picture in Jane Austen and fashion and other books on fashion of the
                  period, show women wearing stays. Though some of these were much
                  smaller or lighter than previously, only the lady caroline Lambs with
                  boyish figures or a desire to shock gave them up entirely. By 1816 they
                  were certainly back in use.
                  nancy
                • angela sigle
                  Yeah! What y all said. Thank you so very much! But... What if the published version isn t the only version of these verses? only the lady Caroline Lambs
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 6, 2001
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                    Yeah! What y'all said. Thank you so very much!
                    But... What if the published version isn't the only version of these
                    verses?

                    " only the lady Caroline Lambs with
                    > boyish figures or a desire to shock gave them up entirely. By 1816 they
                    > were certainly back in use.
                    > nancy
                    That was the point of my original reference to stays- that perhaps the
                    target in the original version wasn't Byron alone.
                    Who do we know that continually makes fun of annabella's figure, (for
                    needing Stays)
                    and writes light verse, and has personal habits that would call her sexual
                    mores into question, (a lot faster than A or A+) and a role in the
                    separation?
                    I've read some other poetry of Caro's that make you think she had Thyzra on
                    the brain in more ways than poetry. Methinks she could have passed around a
                    version that later was amended and published.
                    Doesn't D.L.M. state that Paternoster got his hands on C's Journals?
                    I just can't see Byron forcing sodomy on his wife- But I can see it as part
                    of Caroline's obsession to be "beloved like Thyzra". And I can REALLY see
                    her blacking Annabella w/ the "crime" she wanted for herself.

                    Word on Annabella leaving Byron to escape orgasm-
                    "She was the most Silent woman I ever- knew." B

                    > Discussing DON JUAN
                    > ----
                    > Any list problems send to
                    > awoodley@...
                    > ------------------------
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Anne Mott
                    ... Meaning Don Leon? - but then how could we evaluate or discuss them? perhaps the ... No one I know - a contemporary reference to needing stays wouldn t
                    Message 9 of 9 , Mar 7, 2001
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                      At 07:41 PM 3/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
                      > What if the published version isn't the only version of these
                      >verses?

                      Meaning Don Leon? - but then how could we evaluate or discuss them?

                      perhaps the
                      >target in the original version wasn't Byron alone.
                      >Who do we know that continually makes fun of annabella's figure, (for
                      >needing Stays)

                      No one I know - a contemporary reference to "needing stays" wouldn't
                      necessarily mean "fat" or "shapeless" It might just mean "out of fashion"
                      in any case. Do you have a reference for Annabella being referred to as
                      "needing stays"?

                      Your use of "target" here is interesting to me. I see Don Leon as a piece
                      of pornographic literature not a "targetting" of anyone.

                      >I've read some other poetry of Caro's

                      Do you think Caro wrote Don Leon? Have you read Glenarvon? Have you read
                      Don Leon? (if not it's in Byron and Greek Love by Crompton) Caroline was
                      not that skilled a writer nor so "earthy" that she could have written it,
                      in my opinion. Besides, in the poem, Don Leon's wife is named Anne - and
                      Caro knew that although Byron's wife's name was Anne Isabella no one ever
                      called her Anne.

                      >Doesn't D.L.M. state that Paternoster got his hands on C's Journals?
                      > I just can't see Byron forcing sodomy on his wife- But I can see it as part
                      >of Caroline's obsession to be "beloved like Thyzra".

                      This is possible - and not "exclusive" - what one woman delights in another
                      can be dismayed by. Byron may not have "forced" Annabella, only suggested
                      or attempted. He commented in a letter when discussing having "spared"
                      Fanny Webster that he disliked anything not "mutual" and that he had gone
                      ahead once and sincerely regretted it. Annabella was so devious and
                      self-deluding that she might have used a circumlocution with Lushington and
                      then let his outraged response be the beginning of the gossip.

                      >Word on Annabella leaving Byron to escape orgasm-
                      >"She was the most Silent woman I ever- knew." B

                      Oh! good one. Although I think in context he meant it as a compliment.




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