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Re: A short contrast/kundalini

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  • John Pellecchia
    Dear Joe, Yes, I m up but two things. 1. It s difficult to type with a dog on your lap -- not too good on the back and difficult to type one-handed with one
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 2, 2007
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      Dear Joe,

      Yes, I'm up but two things.

      1. It's difficult to type with a dog on your lap -- not too good on
      the back and difficult to type one-handed with one finger (LOL). He
      refuses to leave and sleep on the bed (my constant companion since
      last attack by the killer scaple).

      2. I'm attempting to compose a "short" response about tantric Buddhism
      but see #1. Also, I hope this is not getting beyond the parameters of
      this website since it gets a little involved (Adi-Buddha, cosmic
      Buddhas, etc.). I'd like some opinions re. this from you and others
      before I post. I don't want to confuse or overstep the intent of this
      board.

      Have a great night.

      May all be at peace.


      John

      --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Marshall" <joebliss@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear John,
      >
      > You are correct in that kundalini is the feminine aspect - to be more
      > specific considered 'shakti,' or goddess energy (I'll get back there
      in a
      > sec.) It is considered to be in a person originally dormant within
      the root
      > chakra. When one engages in work with kundalini, which is seen as a
      coiled
      > serpent in appearance, not unlike the double helix of DNA, it
      awakens in the
      > root chakra and begins to rise up the shushumna nadi (central spinal
      energy
      > channel) toward the crown chakra, which is considered 'Shiva,' god
      energy
      > (be there in a sec). This is supposed to be a slow process,
      supervised by a
      > guru or a very learned teacher, and definitely NOT moved by another
      except
      > in rare circumstances determined and performed by an experienced and
      wise
      > guru/teacher because the metaphysics are very powerful and, as Judy
      pointed
      > out, can make one very squirrelly - I mentioned the hypersensitivity
      thing
      > in my last post about this because I know this one from experience.
      I had a
      > dramatic metamorphosis, but a few months later my life was upside-down
      > because I didn't take the precautions that my guru instructed me to
      take. I
      > became overwhelmed by everything around me and became frazzled.
      >
      > Okay, the god and goddess thing. 1 is the concept that when 'shakti'
      > (goddess principle) rises all the way and unites with 'Shiva' (god
      > principle), Self-realization is said to occur (NOT to be confused with
      > "God-realization" or becoming a bodhisattva), and it does, but this
      is to be
      > undertaken very seriously with the understanding that it is not
      independent
      > from implementing other disciplines as well. 2 is that 'god' and
      'goddess',
      > at least for me, became nothing but projections of myself in my own
      > awareness when this happened; and Tantrics that have been on the
      path for
      > awhile fully realize that deities only exist as projections that we
      humans
      > invent in order to relate to our Selves and to try to make the
      Universe that
      > we have not yet understood become a little more "user-friendly" Also in
      > this worthy of note, though you may have caught this already, is the
      whole
      > principle of male/female uniting to birth something new, which is
      part and
      > parcel of Tantrism - only thing that most don't know is that Tantrics
      > believe that the masculine creative force is dormant until empowered
      by the
      > feminine, the whole kundalini thing being only one example of how
      this works
      > according to this, the earth and the Universe birthing and sustaining
      > everything being the bigger picture. This is re-enacted and
      celebrated as
      > such in M-F relations as well.
      >
      > But to summarize here; As Judy said, kundalini work can be dangerous to
      > one's mental health if s/he is meddling with it on his own or
      fooling with
      > another's. It is very powerful and is not to be underestimated as some
      > silly myth. As the same time though, it can cause a dramatic
      positive shift
      > in one's consciousness. The thing is that like the Buddhist deity
      thing of
      > which you spoke (that I am very curious about), one must seek out a
      > reputable guru/teacher and follow her/his instructions.
      >
      >
      > Aum Shanti,
      > ~Joe
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com]On
      > Behalf Of John Pellecchia
      > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 8:19 PM
      > To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: The Vow of the Bodhisattva/A short contrast
      >
      >
      > Dear Joe,
      >
      > Good sleep? Doesn't happen. The surgeries were successful (according
      > to the neuro-surgeon) and I'm supposed to "live" with it as if one has
      > a choice (LOL). Meditation helps to an extent but there are times when
      > nothing seems to help. But, enough of the mundane.
      >
      > Judy added some insight for me to your post which I just read more
      > carefully. Am I correct in my understanding that Kundalini is a
      > feminine aspect or is it just an aspect of Hatha Yoga? I'm a little
      > confused and would appreciate the clarification.
      >
      > I understood the mentioning of God in your prior post was due to
      > referencing Hinduism. I mentioned it since it is odd in an interesting
      > way how similar the two are but for that one word. I guess it just
      > shows how much more closely aligned the two are than when initially
      > viewed. For example: Recently I went into a GNC managed by a Hindu
      > looking for rosewater for my water offering bowls. We got into a
      > discussion and he was surprised that Tibetan Buddhists perform puja
      > rituals. Again, the similarities between Tibetan Buddhism and Hinduism
      > are interesting to say the least.
      >
      > I "just" received "Mahamudra: The Moonlight -- Quintescence of Mind
      > and Meditation" by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal translated by Lobsang P.
      > Lhahungpa. I just began reading the intro but it cautions one should
      > perform this practice under the guidance of a qualified instructor
      > (sound familiar?). The requirements (preliminary texts to read, etc.)
      > are extensive. The concepts I "thumbed" upon are intriguing but
      > reminiscent to some other texts I have. Anyway, I'll just read it on a
      > superficial level at this point without performing the meditations
      > while maintaining my usual practice.
      >
      > Listen, have a great night and, as always, it's a pleasure to carry on
      > the conversation.
      >
      > And, if you see a bug around, please don't step on it -- it may be me
      > (smile).
      >
      > May all be at peace.
      >
      > John
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Joe Marshall
      Dear John, Sorry about your run-ins with Dr. Hack n slash. Maybe you can tell me about them some time. As for the kundalini thread, it has probably gone
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 3, 2007
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        Dear John,

        Sorry about your run-ins with "Dr. Hack'n'slash." Maybe you can tell me
        about them some time.

        As for the kundalini thread, it has probably gone off-topic. I'm very much
        new here, but I would guess that those here are much more interested in
        Buddhist things. I would be very interested in hearing about Tantric
        Buddhism, but I don't know know how it relates to Tibetan Buddhism other
        than that I have gleaned that Tibetan Buddhism does have some Tantric
        leanings.

        Nevertheless, I really wouldn't want to register a "vote" on this one
        because I am still very new here and don't have a good feel for what others
        like and dislike, what they would find interesting and relevant and what
        they would not.



        -----Original Message-----
        From: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com]On
        Behalf Of John Pellecchia
        Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 2:56 AM
        To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: A short contrast/kundalini


        Dear Joe,

        Yes, I'm up but two things.

        1. It's difficult to type with a dog on your lap -- not too good on
        the back and difficult to type one-handed with one finger (LOL). He
        refuses to leave and sleep on the bed (my constant companion since
        last attack by the killer scaple).

        2. I'm attempting to compose a "short" response about tantric Buddhism
        but see #1. Also, I hope this is not getting beyond the parameters of
        this website since it gets a little involved (Adi-Buddha, cosmic
        Buddhas, etc.). I'd like some opinions re. this from you and others
        before I post. I don't want to confuse or overstep the intent of this
        board.

        Have a great night.

        May all be at peace.

        John
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      • dwain dolan
        Joe: for a good overview of the Tantric tradition from the Tibetan Buddhist Tradition please see:
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 3, 2007
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          Joe:
          for a good overview of the Tantric tradition from the Tibetan Buddhist Tradition please see:

          http://www.amazon.com/Foundations-Tibetan-Mysticism-Anagarika-Govinda/dp/0877280649/sr=1-1/qid=1170535968/ref=sr_1_1/102-6411725-8724119?ie=UTF8&s=books

          the reviews for this title seem to be unanimously positive. i also like this title because the whole treatise revolves around a commentary upon the Mani Mantra.

          blessings...
          dwain


          Self-Esteem, n. An erroneous appraisement.
          -Ambrose Bierce



          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Joe Marshall <joebliss@...>
          To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2007 8:22:54 AM
          Subject: [Buddhism_101] Tantric Buddhism? [was Re: A short contrast/kundalini]

          Dear John,

          Sorry about your run-ins with "Dr. Hack'n'slash. " Maybe you can tell me
          about them some time.

          As for the kundalini thread, it has probably gone off-topic. I'm very much
          new here, but I would guess that those here are much more interested in
          Buddhist things. I would be very interested in hearing about Tantric
          Buddhism, but I don't know know how it relates to Tibetan Buddhism other
          than that I have gleaned that Tibetan Buddhism does have some Tantric
          leanings.

          Nevertheless, I really wouldn't want to register a "vote" on this one
          because I am still very new here and don't have a good feel for what others
          like and dislike, what they would find interesting and relevant and what
          they would not.

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com]On
          Behalf Of John Pellecchia
          Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 2:56 AM
          To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
          Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: A short contrast/kundalini

          Dear Joe,

          Yes, I'm up but two things.

          1. It's difficult to type with a dog on your lap -- not too good on
          the back and difficult to type one-handed with one finger (LOL). He
          refuses to leave and sleep on the bed (my constant companion since
          last attack by the killer scaple).

          2. I'm attempting to compose a "short" response about tantric Buddhism
          but see #1. Also, I hope this is not getting beyond the parameters of
          this website since it gets a little involved (Adi-Buddha, cosmic
          Buddhas, etc.). I'd like some opinions re. this from you and others
          before I post. I don't want to confuse or overstep the intent of this
          board.

          Have a great night.

          May all be at peace.

          John
          Recent Activity
          a.. 7New Members
          b.. 5New Photos
          Visit Your Group
          Travel Deals
          Yahoo! FareChase

          Find great prices

          Flights & Hotels

          Yahoo! News
          Entertainment News

          The latest on stars,

          movies, and more

          Sitebuilder
          Over 380 Templates

          Build and custo-

          mize your web site
          .


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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        • John Pellecchia
          Dear Joe, I decided rather than posting a long explanation of chakras and tantrism in Tibetan Buddhist practice, it would be better to post links that explain
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 3, 2007
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            Dear Joe,

            I decided rather than posting a long explanation of chakras and
            tantrism in Tibetan Buddhist practice, it would be better to post
            links that explain the differences between the interpretation of
            chakras in various belief systems including Hinduism as well as sites
            explaining tantric practices.

            In this way I'll save myself a lot of typing and will put the onus on
            the author(s) of the site(s) for any misunderstandings or errors (I've
            had enough of that of late <smile>).

            I need to caution those who are new to Tibetan Buddhism that this is
            not easy to understand tantric practices and it's best to follow the
            practice under the direction of a Spiritual Teacher. I write this not
            for you, Joe, since you understand the potential consequences but for
            anyone else interested in learning this meditation practice.

            Tantric Buddhist practice is called Vajrayana Buddhism or "The
            Diamond Vehicle" and is considered to be a part of the Mahayana
            school. It is said that followers of Vajrayana are able to achieve
            enlightenment more quickly than followers of other practices but I am
            not proof of that (LOL).

            Here's where it gets a little confusing. In this tradition there is
            Samantabahada (Kuntuzangpo in Tibetan) Who some consider to be the
            same as Vajrasattva while others differentiate the two. He (they) are
            considered to be the primordial Buddhas. Subsequent to him (them) are
            the Five Dhyani-Buddhas and are what are referred to as "celestial
            Buddhas." Each of these are different than the historical Buddhas Who
            walked on Earth, i.e., the Buddha Shakyamuni, etc. These Buddhas are
            most involved in tantric practice. Each of these Buddhas has a
            peaceful and a wrathful form which gets into additional symbolism but
            let's not complicate the issue at this point.

            There is a lot of symbolism in Tibetan Buddhism and Hinduism as you
            are well aware. It's like looking at the image of Shiva Nataraja in
            Cosmic Dance and how it relates to contemporary science. Interesting
            concept of how the "Big Bang Theory" and subatomic particles, etc. are
            evident in a belief that is thousands of years old -- just makes you
            wonder.

            In my practice there are five chakras, five "poisons", the vajra has
            five points (although some have nine), and Five Dhyani-Buddhas to
            counter the five "poisons", etc.. The number "five" has a lot of
            significance to me since it is a prime number. Also holds true in the
            concept of the masculine and feminine in yab-yum more familiar to
            Westerners as "yang-ying" (1 male quality + 1 female quality = 2:
            again a prime number). There are what is called the three main poisons
            (3 again prime). Some may say one can draw conclusions of relevance
            from the comic section of the Sunday paper if you look hard enough.
            This is just my personal observation and not a dogmatic belief (there,
            I gave my obligatory disclaimer) so take from it what you will.

            A lot of symbolism is explained in what is called "The Tibetan Book of
            the Dead". Anyone interested in this text is advised 1) it is not an
            easy read (at least in my opinion) and 2) if you plan on obtaining a
            copy purchase what is entitled "First Complete Translation: The
            Tibetan Book of the Dead" translated by Gyurme Dorje, edited by Graham
            Coleman with Thupten Jinpa (Penguin Books, 2005). There are many
            smaller editions but they are not complete, hence the title (oh, to
            state the obvious <smile>).

            Anyway, here are some sites so I'm "off the hook" with anything
            contained on them, in them, or their accuracy:

            http://www.kheper.net/topics/chakras/chakras.htm

            http://www.kagyu.org/kagyulineage/lineage/kag01.php

            http://www.berzinarchives.com/kalachakra/

            kalachakra_tantra_rel_world_peace.html (you'll have to scroll down to
            get to the topic but the complete article is an interesting read)

            http://www.sundial.thai-isan-lao.com/sundial_vajra_literature.html

            http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/ew25856.htm

            I think these should give you an interesting read for a while. You can
            also google some of the deities I mentioned, topics, etc. for
            additional information. Sorry for the length. Could you imagine if I
            tried to consolidate all the information in text? I'd have to write a
            book (LOL).

            Personally, your getting "off topic" was interesting and insightful.
            Keep me informed and I hope this helps.

            As to you interest in "the disagreement": I'd prefer not to re-plow
            the field and to let it drop. I said I will not respond or expound
            further on the issue. The postings and threads are there if you feel
            like following the event.

            May all be at peace.


            John
          • Joe Marshall
            Thanks, Dwain. This book look great. I ll be looking into this one. I like the quote in your sig as well. Aum Shanti, ~Joe
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 3, 2007
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              Thanks, Dwain. This book look great. I'll be looking into this one.
              I like the quote in your sig as well. <smile>


              Aum Shanti,
              ~Joe






              > Joe:
              > for a good overview of the Tantric tradition from the Tibetan
              > Buddhist Tradition please see:
              >
              > http://www.amazon.com/Foundations-Tibetan-Mysticism-Anagarika-Govi
              > nda/dp/0877280649/sr=1-1/qid=1170535968/ref=sr_1_1/102-6411725-872
              > 4119?ie=UTF8&s=books
              >
              > the reviews for this title seem to be unanimously positive. i
              > also like this title because the whole treatise revolves around a
              > commentary upon the Mani Mantra.
              >
              > blessings...
              > dwain
              >
              >
              > Self-Esteem, n. An erroneous appraisement.
              > -Ambrose Bierce
              >
            • Joe Marshall
              Dear John, Thanks for all of the information and the links. I see the (benevolent) mystical as beautiful, as the unseen as so much bigger than what our senses
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 3, 2007
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                Dear John,

                Thanks for all of the information and the links. I see the (benevolent)
                mystical as beautiful, as the unseen as so much bigger than what our senses
                can perceive, but as you related, some places are not to be explored without
                an excellent tour guide. Some of the icons and symbolology appear
                inconsistent, off-putting, or even frightening; but I believe that is
                purposefully done. Imagine your run of the mill Hindu dealing with the
                large black image of Kali. He can't wrap his brain around the any concept
                of beauty, love, safety, or maternal tenderness in that; but I think he is
                not supposed to until he is shown - not supposed to lose his fear of the
                path that image guards (for lack of a better word) until prepared. I
                suspect it be the same with the celestial buddhas who can be wrathful. I
                don't think most Buddhists can relate to that because the buddhas we know
                here are not wrathful at all, and the prospect of a wrathful Buddha is
                frightening, or can be. I wouldn't want one with the attributes of a Buddha
                to be wrathful with me for sure. But there is always much more to discover
                under the surface of these things - there must be, else no one would bother
                to look, and the whole path and its images would fall away into obscurity.
                The thing is that we don't know what we can or should see behind the veil,
                and can't without sound direction, and shouldn't really try because these
                forces are too much to handle without proper guidance. Sure, one can read a
                book, but one cannot ask the book what is going on when something unexpected
                happens or is seen or heard, or when one gets lost or confused. There are
                "talking books," but they don't answer questions.

                Anyway, I am rambling. Think I will take my medicine and relax awhile.
                <smile> Hope you are feeling better.


                Aum Shanti,
                ~Joe






                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of John Pellecchia
                > Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 4:13 PM
                > To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [Buddhism_101] Tantric Buddhism? [was Re: A short
                > contrast/kundalini]
                >
                >
                > Dear Joe,
                >
                > I decided rather than posting a long explanation of chakras and
                > tantrism in Tibetan Buddhist practice, it would be better to post
                > links that explain the differences between the interpretation of
                > chakras in various belief systems including Hinduism as well as sites
                > explaining tantric practices.
                >
                > In this way I'll save myself a lot of typing and will put the onus on
                > the author(s) of the site(s) for any misunderstandings or errors (I've
                > had enough of that of late <smile>).
                >
                > I need to caution those who are new to Tibetan Buddhism that this is
                > not easy to understand tantric practices and it's best to follow the
                > practice under the direction of a Spiritual Teacher. I write this not
                > for you, Joe, since you understand the potential consequences but for
                > anyone else interested in learning this meditation practice.
                >
                > Tantric Buddhist practice is called Vajrayana Buddhism or "The
                > Diamond Vehicle" and is considered to be a part of the Mahayana
                > school. It is said that followers of Vajrayana are able to achieve
                > enlightenment more quickly than followers of other practices but I am
                > not proof of that (LOL).
                >
                > Here's where it gets a little confusing. In this tradition there is
                > Samantabahada (Kuntuzangpo in Tibetan) Who some consider to be the
                > same as Vajrasattva while others differentiate the two. He (they) are
                > considered to be the primordial Buddhas. Subsequent to him (them) are
                > the Five Dhyani-Buddhas and are what are referred to as "celestial
                > Buddhas." Each of these are different than the historical Buddhas Who
                > walked on Earth, i.e., the Buddha Shakyamuni, etc. These Buddhas are
                > most involved in tantric practice. Each of these Buddhas has a
                > peaceful and a wrathful form which gets into additional symbolism but
                > let's not complicate the issue at this point.
                >
                > There is a lot of symbolism in Tibetan Buddhism and Hinduism as you
                > are well aware. It's like looking at the image of Shiva Nataraja in
                > Cosmic Dance and how it relates to contemporary science. Interesting
                > concept of how the "Big Bang Theory" and subatomic particles, etc. are
                > evident in a belief that is thousands of years old -- just makes you
                > wonder.
                >
                > In my practice there are five chakras, five "poisons", the vajra has
                > five points (although some have nine), and Five Dhyani-Buddhas to
                > counter the five "poisons", etc.. The number "five" has a lot of
                > significance to me since it is a prime number. Also holds true in the
                > concept of the masculine and feminine in yab-yum more familiar to
                > Westerners as "yang-ying" (1 male quality + 1 female quality = 2:
                > again a prime number). There are what is called the three main poisons
                > (3 again prime). Some may say one can draw conclusions of relevance
                > from the comic section of the Sunday paper if you look hard enough.
                > This is just my personal observation and not a dogmatic belief (there,
                > I gave my obligatory disclaimer) so take from it what you will.
                >
                > A lot of symbolism is explained in what is called "The Tibetan Book of
                > the Dead". Anyone interested in this text is advised 1) it is not an
                > easy read (at least in my opinion) and 2) if you plan on obtaining a
                > copy purchase what is entitled "First Complete Translation: The
                > Tibetan Book of the Dead" translated by Gyurme Dorje, edited by Graham
                > Coleman with Thupten Jinpa (Penguin Books, 2005). There are many
                > smaller editions but they are not complete, hence the title (oh, to
                > state the obvious <smile>).
                >
                > Anyway, here are some sites so I'm "off the hook" with anything
                > contained on them, in them, or their accuracy:
                >
                > http://www.kheper.net/topics/chakras/chakras.htm
                >
                > http://www.kagyu.org/kagyulineage/lineage/kag01.php
                >
                > http://www.berzinarchives.com/kalachakra/
                >
                > kalachakra_tantra_rel_world_peace.html (you'll have to scroll down to
                > get to the topic but the complete article is an interesting read)
                >
                > http://www.sundial.thai-isan-lao.com/sundial_vajra_literature.html
                >
                > http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/ew25856.htm
                >
                > I think these should give you an interesting read for a while. You can
                > also google some of the deities I mentioned, topics, etc. for
                > additional information. Sorry for the length. Could you imagine if I
                > tried to consolidate all the information in text? I'd have to write a
                > book (LOL).
                >
                > Personally, your getting "off topic" was interesting and insightful.
                > Keep me informed and I hope this helps.
                >
                > As to you interest in "the disagreement": I'd prefer not to re-plow
                > the field and to let it drop. I said I will not respond or expound
                > further on the issue. The postings and threads are there if you feel
                > like following the event.
                >
                > May all be at peace.
                >
                >
                > John
                >
                >








                >
              • John Pellecchia
                Dear Joe, Yes, I m here with dog on lap once again. Can t shake him worth a darn but, then again, wouldn t dream of it. He s helped me through a lot. Exactly
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 3, 2007
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                  Dear Joe,

                  Yes, I'm here with dog on lap once again. Can't shake him worth a darn
                  but, then again, wouldn't dream of it. He's helped me through a lot.

                  Exactly and well stated. Most older belief systems were (are)
                  dual-fold in that there is the obvious and the hidden, more obtuse
                  reserved for the initiant. More and more of the vague is "revealed" to
                  the trainee as s/he continues to master the teachings -- but that's a
                  purely personal opinion.

                  Now, if I lie down the dog will lie next to me and will get off my lap
                  (we humans are so smart and adaptive). So I'm going to log off and
                  stretch out.

                  Have a great night.

                  May all be at peace.

                  John

                  --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Marshall" <joebliss@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear John,
                  >
                  > Thanks for all of the information and the links. I see the
                  (benevolent) mystical as beautiful, as the unseen as so much bigger
                  than what our senses can perceive, but as you related, some places are
                  not to be explored without an excellent tour guide. Some of the icons
                  and symbolology appear inconsistent, off-putting, or even frightening;
                  but I believe that is purposefully done. Imagine your run of the mill
                  Hindu dealing with the large black image of Kali. He can't wrap his
                  brain around the any concept of beauty, love, safety, or maternal
                  tenderness in that; but I think he is not supposed to until he is
                  shown - not supposed to lose his fear of the path that image guards
                  (for lack of a better word) until prepared. I suspect it be the same
                  with the celestial buddhas who can be wrathful. I don't think most
                  Buddhists can relate to that because the buddhas we know here are not
                  wrathful at all, and the prospect of a wrathful Buddha is frightening,
                  or can be. I wouldn't want one with the attributes of a Buddha to be
                  wrathful with me for sure. But there is always much more to discover
                  under the surface of these things - there must be, else no one would
                  bother to look, and the whole path and its images would fall away into
                  obscurity. The thing is that we don't know what we can or should see
                  behind the veil, and can't without sound direction, and shouldn't
                  really try because these forces are too much to handle without proper
                  guidance. Sure, one can read a book, but one cannot ask the book what
                  is going on when something unexpected happens or is seen or heard, or
                  when one gets lost or confused. There are "talking books," but they
                  don't answer questions.
                  >
                  > Anyway, I am rambling. Think I will take my medicine and relax
                  awhile. <smile> Hope you are feeling better.
                  >
                  >
                  > Aum Shanti,
                  > ~Joe
                • Sheila Fite
                  John, Thank you for posting these web links, there is a lot of great stuff here. With gratitude, Sheila _____ From: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 4, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    John,



                    Thank you for posting these web links, there is a lot of great stuff here.



                    With gratitude,

                    Sheila



                    _____

                    From: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of John Pellecchia
                    Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 3:13 PM
                    To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [Buddhism_101] Tantric Buddhism? [was Re: A short
                    contrast/kundalini]



                    Dear Joe,

                    I decided rather than posting a long explanation of chakras and
                    tantrism in Tibetan Buddhist practice, it would be better to post
                    links that explain the differences between the interpretation of
                    chakras in various belief systems including Hinduism as well as sites
                    explaining tantric practices.

                    In this way I'll save myself a lot of typing and will put the onus on
                    the author(s) of the site(s) for any misunderstandings or errors (I've
                    had enough of that of late <smile>).

                    I need to caution those who are new to Tibetan Buddhism that this is
                    not easy to understand tantric practices and it's best to follow the
                    practice under the direction of a Spiritual Teacher. I write this not
                    for you, Joe, since you understand the potential consequences but for
                    anyone else interested in learning this meditation practice.

                    Tantric Buddhist practice is called Vajrayana Buddhism or "The
                    Diamond Vehicle" and is considered to be a part of the Mahayana
                    school. It is said that followers of Vajrayana are able to achieve
                    enlightenment more quickly than followers of other practices but I am
                    not proof of that (LOL).

                    Here's where it gets a little confusing. In this tradition there is
                    Samantabahada (Kuntuzangpo in Tibetan) Who some consider to be the
                    same as Vajrasattva while others differentiate the two. He (they) are
                    considered to be the primordial Buddhas. Subsequent to him (them) are
                    the Five Dhyani-Buddhas and are what are referred to as "celestial
                    Buddhas." Each of these are different than the historical Buddhas Who
                    walked on Earth, i.e., the Buddha Shakyamuni, etc. These Buddhas are
                    most involved in tantric practice. Each of these Buddhas has a
                    peaceful and a wrathful form which gets into additional symbolism but
                    let's not complicate the issue at this point.

                    There is a lot of symbolism in Tibetan Buddhism and Hinduism as you
                    are well aware. It's like looking at the image of Shiva Nataraja in
                    Cosmic Dance and how it relates to contemporary science. Interesting
                    concept of how the "Big Bang Theory" and subatomic particles, etc. are
                    evident in a belief that is thousands of years old -- just makes you
                    wonder.

                    In my practice there are five chakras, five "poisons", the vajra has
                    five points (although some have nine), and Five Dhyani-Buddhas to
                    counter the five "poisons", etc.. The number "five" has a lot of
                    significance to me since it is a prime number. Also holds true in the
                    concept of the masculine and feminine in yab-yum more familiar to
                    Westerners as "yang-ying" (1 male quality + 1 female quality = 2:
                    again a prime number). There are what is called the three main poisons
                    (3 again prime). Some may say one can draw conclusions of relevance
                    from the comic section of the Sunday paper if you look hard enough.
                    This is just my personal observation and not a dogmatic belief (there,
                    I gave my obligatory disclaimer) so take from it what you will.

                    A lot of symbolism is explained in what is called "The Tibetan Book of
                    the Dead". Anyone interested in this text is advised 1) it is not an
                    easy read (at least in my opinion) and 2) if you plan on obtaining a
                    copy purchase what is entitled "First Complete Translation: The
                    Tibetan Book of the Dead" translated by Gyurme Dorje, edited by Graham
                    Coleman with Thupten Jinpa (Penguin Books, 2005). There are many
                    smaller editions but they are not complete, hence the title (oh, to
                    state the obvious <smile>).

                    Anyway, here are some sites so I'm "off the hook" with anything
                    contained on them, in them, or their accuracy:

                    http://www.kheper. <http://www.kheper.net/topics/chakras/chakras.htm>
                    net/topics/chakras/chakras.htm

                    http://www.kagyu. <http://www.kagyu.org/kagyulineage/lineage/kag01.php>
                    org/kagyulineage/lineage/kag01.php

                    http://www.berzinar <http://www.berzinarchives.com/kalachakra/>
                    chives.com/kalachakra/

                    kalachakra_tantra_rel_world_peace.html (you'll have to scroll down to
                    get to the topic but the complete article is an interesting read)

                    http://www.sundial.
                    <http://www.sundial.thai-isan-lao.com/sundial_vajra_literature.html>
                    thai-isan-lao.com/sundial_vajra_literature.html

                    http://ccbs. <http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/ew25856.htm>
                    ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/ew25856.htm

                    I think these should give you an interesting read for a while. You can
                    also google some of the deities I mentioned, topics, etc. for
                    additional information. Sorry for the length. Could you imagine if I
                    tried to consolidate all the information in text? I'd have to write a
                    book (LOL).

                    Personally, your getting "off topic" was interesting and insightful.
                    Keep me informed and I hope this helps.

                    As to you interest in "the disagreement": I'd prefer not to re-plow
                    the field and to let it drop. I said I will not respond or expound
                    further on the issue. The postings and threads are there if you feel
                    like following the event.

                    May all be at peace.

                    John





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