Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

RE: Should Buddhists be vegetarians ?

Expand Messages
  • Lotta
    Good morning Everybody and Tashi Deleg! Good, reasonable thoughts indeed you have, Susan! I am glad to answer few of your questions! As those, who have been
    Message 1 of 25 , Jan 8, 2004
       
      Good morning Everybody and Tashi Deleg!
       
       
      Good, reasonable thoughts indeed you have, Susan! I am glad to answer few of your questions!
       
      As those, who have been reading my posts know, I am not buddhist, but I am very interested of it (have been for more than ten years), and to be more pricise, the philosophical side of it. I have read some books, and information from the web. So I am still very beginner in that matter.
       
      But what I do know is veganism, and I am happy that I am able to share some of that knowledge with you people here! Usually just knowing the facts of animal rights issues makes people cut down the animal products.
      It takes guts to "meet your meat", and the change cannot be expected to happen in over night time. But when you make yourself an animal product free zone, I promise you, you won't be sorry. Your body and your heart is light and your mind is clear.
       
      Like Susan wrote, even choosing organic, crueltyfree products is big help: I do not expect everybody to be vegans or vegetarians, but I do think that everybody should know what happens at those factoryfarms. And then make your own choises.
      Like I said in my previous post, every Dollar means one vote. You can vote for better future for the helpless animals by making right, concious choices! That what life is about, choises.
       
      I have a strong opinion that dogs are omnivores and cats are carnivores, that is the way nature ment it. I have a dog too, I resqued her from unloving family where she was badly mistreated and ignored; almost ten years ago.
       I wasn't vegetarian then. As long as my dog lives, she will have diet suitable for omnivore. Everything I buy for her I make sure, is organic and that animals are not lived their lives shut inside. I do feel bad too when buying her food (half dry food, half natural food, as dry foods are no good, not even vegan formula, but they are sooo easy to use!) 
      I will not take a meat eating pet after my dog has gone over the rainbow bridge, as my friend so nicely puts it, hopefully that is still long time away!
      (These days arise also question of safety of these comercial pet foods, as they contain all kinds of animal parts, ingluding road kills and even euthanized pets! And that's how BSE started, feeding cows to cows.)
       
      You mentioned people living in undeveloped cold countries. Well, Finland surely is not undeveloped, but it is a North- European country and we do have agriculture. But I got your point :)
      When talking about veganism, it is a phenomenon of wellfare countries. In wellfare country we have choises, like you said, to buy exactly that product we concider is the best for our needs.
      If one has only one choise, eating flesh or die, then it is understandable to eat meat; all living creatures on this planet have strong will to live. 
      Also in developing countries the are no factory farms (I am not saing that animals are treated good though), no growth hormones, no turning vegetarian animals into cannibals... You got the point?
       
      I am really not the one to answer to that bad karma thing, but I am positive that world politics has a strong influence on meat eating.
      Even Dalai Lama (a link to next post)seems to be affected. Politics is everywhere!!! Animal exploiting industries are so huge part of the economy of western world that in politics it cannot be ignored. Everybody envolved with politics has their hands in blood.
      Now that Tibetan Buddhism is strongly heading to western markets, even Dalai Lamas has to take a point of view to please the all mighty animal exploitating industry.
      (And those brainwashed consumers...)
      Do you think Dalai Lama Himself eats meat, He is Holy man, I am positive He is at least vegetarian! One cannot achieve high spiritual development if eating meat or other animal products.
       
      Lotta
       
      *******************
       
      HeartwingsPapillons wrote:
       
      I am a vegetarian by choice, both for religious and health reasons, however I do occasionally eat eggs and dairy products.  I do make a point of only chosing organic products from free range farms as I am more confident that the animals are well cared for and I don't care to eat anything tainted by the drugs and chemicals commonly fed to conventional cows and chickens from factory farms.  I just moved from a small town that had a Horizon organic dairy and I actually went there and visited it and was satisfied that the cows were not suffering and only eating wholesome organic foods and I felt better about consuming dairy products that came from the milk produced there.  I do not have a moral problem myself (which is not to say that I am right) with free range eggs & dairy, as the animals do not die to produce these products and it is perfectly natural for cows to make milk and chickens to make eggs.  Of course, I also believe in logic and it tells me that, if these products were actually good for us, they would not exacerbate the health problems that they do such as high cholesterol, heart and intestinal diseases etc..  Buddhist teachings seem clear to me and I think eating meat is wrong as it is killing and humans certainally do not need to eat meat to survive, but I suppose eggs & dairy fall into that gray area?
       
      The problem I am faced with is that, like many people, I have animals that I keep as pets.  Common pet animals like dogs and cats are not vegetarians by nature and, in the wild, they kill and consume other animals for food as many animals do.  There are a few commercially made vegetarian foods available for dogs & cats, but both my vet and I feel that these are not natural healthy diets as nature intended these species to eat meat (and never mind that they taste so bad many pets won't eat them LOL!).  If I am to feed my dogs and cats an appropriate diet, this diet will contain meat and I often wonder if I am generating negative karma every time I feed my dogs & cats?  Obviously, if these same animals were running around in a natural environment, they would kill and consume animals in order to survive, so am I really doing something wrong-is there really negative karma there?  I hate the fact that I have this meat pet food in my house, but obviously if I do not feed them they will suffer and die and, if I only feed them a vegetarian diet, they will eventually become ill, suffer and die as well. 
       
      Another dilema I often think of is people who live in cold or arid parts of the world where the local diet is very high in animals as farming is impossible in these areas or so difficult that people cannot grow enough food to sustain themselves.  Obviously I am talking about remote less developed parts of the world here, but people there have to eat animals or they will die.  I would assume all of us on this list live in developed countries where personal preference determines our diets and not simple availibility of food to eat.  We can go to the market and chose to put a bag of rice or a chicken into our shopping basket, but there are people in the world who cannot and they either have to kill an animal or have nothing to eat. What of these people, are they "doomed"?  None of us chose where we are born and some of us, due to economics or politics, cannot chose where we live.
       
      Just some thoughts...........
       
      Susan


      Do you Yahoo!?
      Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
    • HeartwingsPapillons
      I am sorry that some people have chosen to leave the list and hope those remaining will feel free to discuss whatever subject with respect for the differing
      Message 2 of 25 , Jan 8, 2004
        I am sorry that some people have chosen to leave the list and hope those remaining will feel free to discuss whatever subject with respect for the differing opinions of others and not to use words whose only purpose is to cause suffering to another.  It is important to remember that Buddhism is not vegetarianism and vegetarianism is not Buddhism- we may chose one or both or neither.  As to whether Buddhism "requires" a vegetarian or vegan diet, that is a matter of interpretation of various texts and how those who have studied them have interpreted them.  It is through discussion that we become better informed and, hopefully, make more mindful choices.
         
        One thing I would like to clear up is that His Holiness the Dalai Lama is NOT a vegetarian! (He was in the past, but not now.)  Please see these websites:
         
         
         
        To me, it seems clear that Buddism, as most religions, says that it is wrong to kill. One large difference between Buddism and other religions is that Buddism considers animals to also be sentient beings.  My interpretation is that I should chose not to kill animals, certainly living in the USA I have many choices of what to eat and do not need to eat meat in order to survive.  Those in some cultures may not have this option and must eat meat or die.  As to whether the Buddha himself was a vegetarian, that has been lost in history and we shall never know for sure.
         
        The one thing I have a hard time dealing with is the notion that it is OK to eat meat, but the animal should not have be killed by me or expressly killed so that I might eat it.  Isn't this the same thing as saying that I should not kill someone I do not like, but it is OK if I have a "hitman" do the killing for me?   I have never ordered that a cow be killed for me, but, over time, if I eat enough hamburgers, they will constitute an entire cow and, therefore, that cow will have in fact have been killed for me.  There are about 292 million people in the USA (US Bureau of Census) and about 1% of them are vegetarians (Roper poll) - if all these people started eating meat, think of how many animals would have to be slaughtered to accomodate them?  If one eats chicken every Sunday, at the end of the month a chicken died just so that that individual could eat chicken.  I am sorry, but I see no difference bewteen killing the animal myself or having the butcher do it for me, that is killing by proxy and I think it would generate just as much negative karma.
         
        The choice to eat meat is a personal one, but I think one should do research and become informed before reaching a decision, this is mindfullness.  Many of us are aware of the various health issues related to eating animals and that is certainly something that should be considered.  What I would ask is that, before reaching a decision, one should also take the time to investigate how food animals live and the method in which they are killed.  I will not go into gorey detail here, but just ask, do you really know how fish, pigs, cows, chickens and so on are killed?  Have you ever seen it done?  Would you be willing to do the same by your own hands? 
         
        Susan
      • Ken Marianos
        Hi Susan, You re definately correct in that the decision to eat or not eat meat is a personal one and is not guided by whether you are Buddhist or not. There
        Message 3 of 25 , Jan 9, 2004
          Hi Susan,
          You're definately correct in that the decision to eat or not eat meat
          is a personal one and is not guided by whether you are Buddhist or
          not. There are certainly difficulties, in the process, when one
          decides to become Buddhist, one also must deal with this question.
          Under the Buddhist definition of sentience, though, even the
          organizms you breath and step upon, when you walk, should be worthy of
          your respect, but you still kill them. Plants are not considered
          sentient, but are they not alive?
          This is a very stubborn question that has troubled Buddhists since
          before there were Buddhists.:-)
          The Jains keep a cloth over their mouths and nostrils in case an
          errant bug should fly in and be killed. Should we do that? I don't
          think so.
          To eat meat or not should be left to the individual and, frankly,
          should be considered on health and personal preference reasons, alone.

          I, too, am disappointed that some have decided to leave the group. A
          good discussion of points is the Buddhist way, and no one should be
          chastised or called names for how they believe. We can discuss,
          without anger.

          You are correct. His Holiness is not a vegetarian, though his meat
          intake is moderate. He once tried it for a time (I don't remember how
          long) but then became ill because of it. The youth are much more able
          to change their diet than the older. H H's meat intake is like
          everything else, where he tries to take the middle way.
          I would certainly be no lesser of a man by following H H's lead. I eat
          meat, but in moderation. Some of this is because of philosophical
          reasons, some for health reasons.

          Ken/

          --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "HeartwingsPapillons"
          <papillon8@c...> wrote:
          > I am sorry that some people have chosen to leave the list and hope
          those remaining will feel free to discuss whatever subject with
          respect for the differing opinions of others and not to use words
          whose only purpose is to cause suffering to another. It is important
          to remember that Buddhism is not vegetarianism and vegetarianism is
          not Buddhism- we may chose one or both or neither. As to whether
          Buddhism "requires" a vegetarian or vegan diet, that is a matter of
          interpretation of various texts and how those who have studied them
          have interpreted them. It is through discussion that we become better
          informed and, hopefully, make more mindful choices.
          >
          > One thing I would like to clear up is that His Holiness the Dalai
          Lama is NOT a vegetarian! (He was in the past, but not now.) Please
          see these websites:
          >
          > http://www.satyamag.com/july99/sat.60.edit.html
          >
          > http://ivu.org/people/writers/lama.html
          >
          > To me, it seems clear that Buddism, as most religions, says that it
          is wrong to kill. One large difference between Buddism and other
          religions is that Buddism considers animals to also be sentient
          beings. My interpretation is that I should chose not to kill animals,
          certainly living in the USA I have many choices of what to eat and do
          not need to eat meat in order to survive. Those in some cultures may
          not have this option and must eat meat or die. As to whether the
          Buddha himself was a vegetarian, that has been lost in history and we
          shall never know for sure.
          >
          > The one thing I have a hard time dealing with is the notion that it
          is OK to eat meat, but the animal should not have be killed by me or
          expressly killed so that I might eat it. Isn't this the same thing as
          saying that I should not kill someone I do not like, but it is OK if I
          have a "hitman" do the killing for me? I have never ordered that a
          cow be killed for me, but, over time, if I eat enough hamburgers, they
          will constitute an entire cow and, therefore, that cow will have in
          fact have been killed for me. There are about 292 million people in
          the USA (US Bureau of Census) and about 1% of them are vegetarians
          (Roper poll) - if all these people started eating meat, think of how
          many animals would have to be slaughtered to accomodate them? If one
          eats chicken every Sunday, at the end of the month a chicken died just
          so that that individual could eat chicken. I am sorry, but I see no
          difference bewteen killing the animal myself or having the butcher do
          it for me, that is killing by proxy and I think it would generate just
          as much negative karma.
          >
          > The choice to eat meat is a personal one, but I think one should do
          research and become informed before reaching a decision, this is
          mindfullness. Many of us are aware of the various health issues
          related to eating animals and that is certainly something that should
          be considered. What I would ask is that, before reaching a decision,
          one should also take the time to investigate how food animals live and
          the method in which they are killed. I will not go into gorey detail
          here, but just ask, do you really know how fish, pigs, cows, chickens
          and so on are killed? Have you ever seen it done? Would you be
          willing to do the same by your own hands?
          >
          > Susan
        • Corry
          HI Ken I fully agree with what you are saying. And yes someone talked me out of leaving so I am still here.... Hope that is ok? namaste corry
          Message 4 of 25 , Jan 9, 2004
            HI Ken
            I fully agree with what you are saying.  And yes someone talked me out of leaving so I am still here.... Hope that is ok?
            namaste
            corry
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 6:37 PM
            Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Should Buddhists be vegetarians ?

            Hi Susan,
            You're definately correct in that the decision to eat or not eat meat
            is a personal one and is not guided by whether you are Buddhist or
            not. There are certainly difficulties, in the process, when one
            decides to become Buddhist, one also must deal with this question.
            Under the Buddhist definition  of sentience, though, even the
            organizms you breath and step upon, when you walk, should be worthy of
            your respect, but you still kill them. Plants are not considered
            sentient, but are they not alive?
            This is a very stubborn question that has troubled Buddhists since
            before there were Buddhists.:-)
            The Jains keep a cloth over their mouths and nostrils in case an
            errant bug should fly in and be killed. Should we do that? I don't
            think so.
            To eat meat or not should be left to the individual and, frankly,
            should be considered on health and personal preference reasons, alone.

            I, too, am disappointed that some have decided to leave the group. A
            good discussion of points is the Buddhist way, and no one should be
            chastised or called names for how they believe. We can discuss,
            without anger.

            You are correct. His Holiness is not a vegetarian, though his meat
            intake is moderate. He once tried it for a time (I don't remember how
            long) but then became ill because of it. The youth are much more able
            to change their diet than the older. H H's meat intake is like
            everything else, where he tries to take the middle way.
            I would certainly be no lesser of a man by following H H's lead. I eat
            meat, but in moderation. Some of this is because of philosophical
            reasons, some for health reasons.

            Ken/   

            --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "HeartwingsPapillons"
            <papillon8@c...> wrote:
            > I am sorry that some people have chosen to leave the list and hope
            those remaining will feel free to discuss whatever subject with
            respect for the differing opinions of others and not to use words
            whose only purpose is to cause suffering to another.  It is important
            to remember that Buddhism is not vegetarianism and vegetarianism is
            not Buddhism- we may chose one or both or neither.  As to whether
            Buddhism "requires" a vegetarian or vegan diet, that is a matter of
            interpretation of various texts and how those who have studied them
            have interpreted them.  It is through discussion that we become better
            informed and, hopefully, make more mindful choices.
            >
            > One thing I would like to clear up is that His Holiness the Dalai
            Lama is NOT a vegetarian! (He was in the past, but not now.)  Please
            see these websites:
            >
            > http://www.satyamag.com/july99/sat.60.edit.html
            >
            > http://ivu.org/people/writers/lama.html
            >
            > To me, it seems clear that Buddism, as most religions, says that it
            is wrong to kill. One large difference between Buddism and other
            religions is that Buddism considers animals to also be sentient
            beings.  My interpretation is that I should chose not to kill animals,
            certainly living in the USA I have many choices of what to eat and do
            not need to eat meat in order to survive.  Those in some cultures may
            not have this option and must eat meat or die.  As to whether the
            Buddha himself was a vegetarian, that has been lost in history and we
            shall never know for sure.
            >
            > The one thing I have a hard time dealing with is the notion that it
            is OK to eat meat, but the animal should not have be killed by me or
            expressly killed so that I might eat it.  Isn't this the same thing as
            saying that I should not kill someone I do not like, but it is OK if I
            have a "hitman" do the killing for me?   I have never ordered that a
            cow be killed for me, but, over time, if I eat enough hamburgers, they
            will constitute an entire cow and, therefore, that cow will have in
            fact have been killed for me.  There are about 292 million people in
            the USA (US Bureau of Census) and about 1% of them are vegetarians
            (Roper poll) - if all these people started eating meat, think of how
            many animals would have to be slaughtered to accomodate them?  If one
            eats chicken every Sunday, at the end of the month a chicken died just
            so that that individual could eat chicken.  I am sorry, but I see no
            difference bewteen killing the animal myself or having the butcher do
            it for me, that is killing by proxy and I think it would generate just
            as much negative karma.
            >
            > The choice to eat meat is a personal one, but I think one should do
            research and become informed before reaching a decision, this is
            mindfullness.  Many of us are aware of the various health issues
            related to eating animals and that is certainly something that should
            be considered.  What I would ask is that, before reaching a decision,
            one should also take the time to investigate how food animals live and
            the method in which they are killed.  I will not go into gorey detail
            here, but just ask, do you really know how fish, pigs, cows, chickens
            and so on are killed?  Have you ever seen it done?  Would you be
            willing to do the same by your own hands? 
            >
            > Susan



            Yahoo! Groups Links

          • Ken Marianos
            Good. I d hate for everyone to leave, just when I joined. I did use my deoderant (I think). :-) In Tibetan Buddhistic tradition, points of difference are often
            Message 5 of 25 , Jan 9, 2004
              Good. I'd hate for everyone to leave, just when I joined. I did use my
              deoderant (I think). :-)

              In Tibetan Buddhistic tradition, points of difference are often
              argued. Buddhism, like Christianity is a moderately old religion, and
              in the intervening years, since it's inception, many outgrowths have
              brought about many differing opinions on it's philosophy. Discussion
              is a great way to learn others opinions and submit your own, but it
              must be done without personal attack. For us to learn from each other
              we can enjoy a friendly discussion about any related subject without
              becoming hurt or defensive by anothers opinions.

              Namaste,
              Ken/



              --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Corry" <corry@l...> wrote:
              > HI Ken
              > I fully agree with what you are saying. And yes someone talked me
              out of leaving so I am still here.... Hope that is ok?
              > namaste
              > corry
              > http://www.corrysrockart.com
              > http://www.corrystuart.com
              > http://www.corrystuart.net
              > http://www.earthmelodies.com
              > http://www.stellanovastudio.com
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Ken Marianos
              > To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 6:37 PM
              > Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Should Buddhists be vegetarians ?
              >
              >
              > Hi Susan,
              > You're definately correct in that the decision to eat or not eat meat
              > is a personal one and is not guided by whether you are Buddhist or
              > not. There are certainly difficulties, in the process, when one
              > decides to become Buddhist, one also must deal with this question.
              > Under the Buddhist definition of sentience, though, even the
              > organizms you breath and step upon, when you walk, should be worthy of
              > your respect, but you still kill them. Plants are not considered
              > sentient, but are they not alive?
              > This is a very stubborn question that has troubled Buddhists since
              > before there were Buddhists.:-)
              > The Jains keep a cloth over their mouths and nostrils in case an
              > errant bug should fly in and be killed. Should we do that? I don't
              > think so.
              > To eat meat or not should be left to the individual and, frankly,
              > should be considered on health and personal preference reasons, alone.
              >
              > I, too, am disappointed that some have decided to leave the group. A
              > good discussion of points is the Buddhist way, and no one should be
              > chastised or called names for how they believe. We can discuss,
              > without anger.
              >
              > You are correct. His Holiness is not a vegetarian, though his meat
              > intake is moderate. He once tried it for a time (I don't remember how
              > long) but then became ill because of it. The youth are much more able
              > to change their diet than the older. H H's meat intake is like
              > everything else, where he tries to take the middle way.
              > I would certainly be no lesser of a man by following H H's lead. I eat
              > meat, but in moderation. Some of this is because of philosophical
              > reasons, some for health reasons.
              >
              > Ken/
              >
              > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "HeartwingsPapillons"
              > <papillon8@c...> wrote:
              > > I am sorry that some people have chosen to leave the list and hope
              > those remaining will feel free to discuss whatever subject with
              > respect for the differing opinions of others and not to use words
              > whose only purpose is to cause suffering to another. It is important
              > to remember that Buddhism is not vegetarianism and vegetarianism is
              > not Buddhism- we may chose one or both or neither. As to whether
              > Buddhism "requires" a vegetarian or vegan diet, that is a matter of
              > interpretation of various texts and how those who have studied them
              > have interpreted them. It is through discussion that we become better
              > informed and, hopefully, make more mindful choices.
              > >
              > > One thing I would like to clear up is that His Holiness the Dalai
              > Lama is NOT a vegetarian! (He was in the past, but not now.) Please
              > see these websites:
              > >
              > > http://www.satyamag.com/july99/sat.60.edit.html
              > >
              > > http://ivu.org/people/writers/lama.html
              > >
              > > To me, it seems clear that Buddism, as most religions, says that it
              > is wrong to kill. One large difference between Buddism and other
              > religions is that Buddism considers animals to also be sentient
              > beings. My interpretation is that I should chose not to kill animals,
              > certainly living in the USA I have many choices of what to eat and do
              > not need to eat meat in order to survive. Those in some cultures may
              > not have this option and must eat meat or die. As to whether the
              > Buddha himself was a vegetarian, that has been lost in history and we
              > shall never know for sure.
              > >
              > > The one thing I have a hard time dealing with is the notion that it
              > is OK to eat meat, but the animal should not have be killed by me or
              > expressly killed so that I might eat it. Isn't this the same thing as
              > saying that I should not kill someone I do not like, but it is OK if I
              > have a "hitman" do the killing for me? I have never ordered that a
              > cow be killed for me, but, over time, if I eat enough hamburgers, they
              > will constitute an entire cow and, therefore, that cow will have in
              > fact have been killed for me. There are about 292 million people in
              > the USA (US Bureau of Census) and about 1% of them are vegetarians
              > (Roper poll) - if all these people started eating meat, think of how
              > many animals would have to be slaughtered to accomodate them? If one
              > eats chicken every Sunday, at the end of the month a chicken died just
              > so that that individual could eat chicken. I am sorry, but I see no
              > difference bewteen killing the animal myself or having the butcher do
              > it for me, that is killing by proxy and I think it would generate just
              > as much negative karma.
              > >
              > > The choice to eat meat is a personal one, but I think one should do
              > research and become informed before reaching a decision, this is
              > mindfullness. Many of us are aware of the various health issues
              > related to eating animals and that is certainly something that should
              > be considered. What I would ask is that, before reaching a decision,
              > one should also take the time to investigate how food animals live and
              > the method in which they are killed. I will not go into gorey detail
              > here, but just ask, do you really know how fish, pigs, cows, chickens
              > and so on are killed? Have you ever seen it done? Would you be
              > willing to do the same by your own hands?
              > >
              > > Susan
              >
              >
              >
              >
              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhism_101/
              >
              > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              Service.
            • aniannalak
              Hi, Animals are not ours to keep. They are healers. Just like the earth is not ours and the air is not ours. We are all inhabitants of this planet, and we
              Message 6 of 25 , Jan 10, 2004
                Hi,


                Animals are not "ours" to keep. They are healers. Just like the earth
                is not ours and the air is not ours. We are all inhabitants of this
                planet, and we all breathe air. "Keeping pets" is slavery.




                Peace,


                Ani Lak




                > The problem I am faced with is that, like many people, I have
                animals that I keep as pets. Common pet animals like dogs and cats
                are not vegetarians by nature and, in the wild, they kill and consume
                other animals for food as many animals do. There are a few
                commercially made vegetarian foods available for dogs & cats, but both
                my vet and I feel that these are not natural healthy diets as nature
                intended these species to eat meat (and never mind that they taste so
                bad many pets won't eat them LOL!). If I am to feed my dogs and cats
                an appropriate diet, this diet will contain meat and I often wonder if
                I am generating negative karma every time I feed my dogs & cats?
                Obviously, if these same animals were running around in a natural
                environment, they would kill and consume animals in order to survive,
                so am I really doing something wrong-is there really negative karma
                there? I hate the fact that I have this meat pet food in my house,
                but obviously if I do not feed them they will suffer and die and, if I
                only feed them a vegetarian diet, they will eventually become ill,
                suffer and die as well.


                >


                >


                > Just some thoughts...........


                >


                > Susan
              • Lotta
                A voice of reason :) Great post Susan! Especially the last paragraph! I would recommend the same to everybody too! Most people think that animals live like in
                Message 7 of 25 , Jan 10, 2004
                  A voice of reason :)
                  Great post Susan! Especially the last paragraph! I would recommend the same to everybody too! Most people think that animals live like in those nostalgic and idyllic memories older people have from childhood, or as the animal industry want's you to believe. Lotta
                   
                   
                  **********************
                   
                  From:  "HeartwingsPapillons" <papillon8@c...>
                  Date:  Thu Jan 8, 2004  10:06 pm
                  Subject:  Re: [Buddhism_101] RE: Should Buddhists be vegetarians ?


                  I am sorry that some people have chosen to leave the list and hope those remaining will feel free to discuss whatever subject with respect for the differing opinions of others and not to use words whose only purpose is to cause suffering to another.  It is important to remember that Buddhism is not vegetarianism and vegetarianism is not Buddhism- we may chose one or both or neither.  As to whether Buddhism "requires" a vegetarian or vegan diet, that is a matter of interpretation of various texts and how those who have studied them have interpreted them.  It is through discussion that we become better informed and, hopefully, make more mindful choices.
                   
                  One thing I would like to clear up is that His Holiness the Dalai Lama is NOT a vegetarian! (He was in the past, but not now.)  Please see these websites:
                   
                   
                   
                  To me, it seems clear that Buddism, as most religions, says that it is wrong to kill. One large difference between Buddism and other religions is that Buddism considers animals to also be sentient beings.  My interpretation is that I should chose not to kill animals, certainly living in the USA I have many choices of what to eat and do not need to eat meat in order to survive.  Those in some cultures may not have this option and must eat meat or die.  As to whether the Buddha himself was a vegetarian, that has been lost in history and we shall never know for sure.
                   
                  The one thing I have a hard time dealing with is the notion that it is OK to eat meat, but the animal should not have be killed by me or expressly killed so that I might eat it.  Isn't this the same thing as saying that I should not kill someone I do not like, but it is OK if I have a "hitman" do the killing for me?   I have never ordered that a cow be killed for me, but, over time, if I eat enough hamburgers, they will constitute an entire cow and, therefore, that cow will have in fact have been killed for me.  There are about 292 million people in the USA (US Bureau of Census) and about 1% of them are vegetarians (Roper poll) - if all these people started eating meat, think of how many animals would have to be slaughtered to accomodate them?  If one eats chicken every Sunday, at the end of the month a chicken died just so that that individual could eat chicken.  I am sorry, but I see no difference bewteen killing the animal myself or having the butcher do it for me, that is killing by proxy and I think it would generate just as much negative karma.
                   
                  The choice to eat meat is a personal one, but I think one should do research and become informed before reaching a decision, this is mindfullness.  Many of us are aware of the various health issues related to eating animals and that is certainly something that should be considered.  What I would ask is that, before reaching a decision, one should also take the time to investigate how food animals live and the method in which they are killed.  I will not go into gorey detail here, but just ask, do you really know how fish, pigs, cows, chickens and so on are killed?  Have you ever seen it done?  Would you be willing to do the same by your own hands? 
                   
                  Susan


                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
                • Lotta
                  Animals are not ours to eat. ... earth ... this ... cats ... consume ... both ... nature ... so ... cats ... wonder if ... survive, ... karma ... house, ... if
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jan 10, 2004
                    Animals are not ours to eat.



                    --aniannalak wrote:
                    > Hi,
                    >
                    >
                    > Animals are not "ours" to keep. They are healers. Just like the
                    earth
                    > is not ours and the air is not ours. We are all inhabitants of
                    this
                    > planet, and we all breathe air. "Keeping pets" is slavery.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Peace,
                    >
                    >
                    > Ani Lak
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > > The problem I am faced with is that, like many people, I have
                    > animals that I keep as pets. Common pet animals like dogs and
                    cats
                    > are not vegetarians by nature and, in the wild, they kill and
                    consume
                    > other animals for food as many animals do. There are a few
                    > commercially made vegetarian foods available for dogs & cats, but
                    both
                    > my vet and I feel that these are not natural healthy diets as
                    nature
                    > intended these species to eat meat (and never mind that they taste
                    so
                    > bad many pets won't eat them LOL!). If I am to feed my dogs and
                    cats
                    > an appropriate diet, this diet will contain meat and I often
                    wonder if
                    > I am generating negative karma every time I feed my dogs & cats?
                    > Obviously, if these same animals were running around in a natural
                    > environment, they would kill and consume animals in order to
                    survive,
                    > so am I really doing something wrong-is there really negative
                    karma
                    > there? I hate the fact that I have this meat pet food in my
                    house,
                    > but obviously if I do not feed them they will suffer and die and,
                    if I
                    > only feed them a vegetarian diet, they will eventually become ill,
                    > suffer and die as well.
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > > Just some thoughts...........
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > > Susan
                  • Ken Marianos
                    Keeping pets is slavery. And, what do you suggest I do with 5 horses, four dogs and two cats. All, incidentally, are well taken care of and a part of my
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jan 10, 2004
                      "Keeping pets is slavery."

                      And, what do you suggest I do with 5 horses, four dogs and two cats.
                      All, incidentally, are well taken care of and a part of my family.

                      In a previous post you talked about the attachment to ideas being as
                      bad as the attachment to things, but by the above statement I feel you
                      my be attaching to PETA's radical ideas, too. Am I correct? By the
                      way, do you wear leather shoes?
                      Ken/

                      --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "aniannalak" <aniannalak@y...> wrote:
                      > Hi,
                      >
                      >
                      > Animals are not "ours" to keep. They are healers. Just like the earth
                      > is not ours and the air is not ours. We are all inhabitants of this
                      > planet, and we all breathe air. "Keeping pets" is slavery.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Peace,
                      >
                      >
                      > Ani Lak
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > > The problem I am faced with is that, like many people, I have
                      > animals that I keep as pets. Common pet animals like dogs and cats
                      > are not vegetarians by nature and, in the wild, they kill and consume
                      > other animals for food as many animals do. There are a few
                      > commercially made vegetarian foods available for dogs & cats, but both
                      > my vet and I feel that these are not natural healthy diets as nature
                      > intended these species to eat meat (and never mind that they taste so
                      > bad many pets won't eat them LOL!). If I am to feed my dogs and cats
                      > an appropriate diet, this diet will contain meat and I often wonder if
                      > I am generating negative karma every time I feed my dogs & cats?
                      > Obviously, if these same animals were running around in a natural
                      > environment, they would kill and consume animals in order to survive,
                      > so am I really doing something wrong-is there really negative karma
                      > there? I hate the fact that I have this meat pet food in my house,
                      > but obviously if I do not feed them they will suffer and die and, if I
                      > only feed them a vegetarian diet, they will eventually become ill,
                      > suffer and die as well.
                      >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > > Just some thoughts...........
                      >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > > Susan
                    • Chrystleana Daniel
                      I agree that SOME animals are healers and that, if one keeps an animal against it s will that this could be termed as slavery. Otherwise.... I am flummoxed
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jan 10, 2004
                        I agree that SOME animals are healers and that, if one keeps an animal against it's will that this could be termed as slavery. Otherwise.... I am flummoxed that anyone in this group would make such a rigid statement. After lving with my nineteen year old tabby for... nineteen years... I would question who is "slave" and who is "master" and kinds-sorta feel we are simply entities in an astonishingly loving and supportive relationship.
                        I have enjoyed the companionship of many animals, including a ferret who would leave home for a few days, and a rat named Jean Luc Picard who lived in my bookcase and pretty much ruled the house.
                         
                        Was Jean Luc a slave? Jean Luc would jump on my shoulder when he wanted to go outside (he liked to dig in the flower beds and forage) and would often remain, jumping up on the window sill when he wanted to come inside (the window was left cracked).
                         
                        As far as a vegan diet:  I am a vegetarian  but I believe before I begin throwing stones I might need to further clean up my act. Just because you do not eat meat or dairy products does not mean that you are not supporting organizations or groups that harm life- such as when you do not investigate how a particular cosmetic company tests it's products. So MANY things to consider.
                         
                        Lastly... Darwin stated, "Everything on this planet was born to eat and be eaten." 
                         


                        aniannalak <aniannalak@...> wrote:
                        Hi,


                        Animals are not "ours" to keep. They are healers. Just like the earth
                        is not ours and the air is not ours. We are all inhabitants of this
                        planet, and we all breathe air. "Keeping pets" is slavery.




                        Peace,


                        Ani Lak




                        > The problem I am faced with is that, like many people, I have
                        animals that I keep as pets.  Common pet animals like dogs and cats
                        are not vegetarians by nature and, in the wild, they kill and consume
                        other animals for food as many animals do.  There are a few
                        commercially made vegetarian foods available for dogs & cats, but both
                        my vet and I feel that these are not natural healthy diets as nature
                        intended these species to eat meat (and never mind that they taste so
                        bad many pets won't eat them LOL!).  If I am to feed my dogs and cats
                        an appropriate diet, this diet will contain meat and I often wonder if
                        I am generating negative karma every time I feed my dogs & cats? 
                        Obviously, if these same animals were running around in a natural
                        environment, they would kill and consume animals in order to survive,
                        so am I really doing something wrong-is there really negative karma
                        there?  I hate the fact that I have this meat pet food in my house,
                        but obviously if I do not feed them they will suffer and die and, if I
                        only feed them a vegetarian diet, they will eventually become ill,
                        suffer and die as well. 


                        >


                        >


                        > Just some thoughts...........


                        >


                        > Susan




                        Yahoo! Groups Links


                        Do you Yahoo!?
                        Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes

                      • Corry
                        hurray for pets and the like. Without them some lives can be pretty lonely. My cat was a foundling, one day she escaped and I thought I had lost her. I left
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jan 10, 2004
                          hurray for pets and the like. Without them some lives can be pretty lonely.  My cat was a foundling, one day she escaped and I thought I had lost her. I left the window open and at midnight she came back. From that day on she never wanted to go outside again.... "its a cruel world out there she told me  I had to eat roots and had no water  barely enough to sustain myself.  Here I have a warm bed, food and water when I am hungry or thirsty and all the love I can handle..... I think I will stay here with my human."
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 5:09 PM
                          Subject: [Buddhism_101] re: Pets and being a vegetarian

                          I agree that SOME animals are healers and that, if one keeps an animal against it's will that this could be termed as slavery. Otherwise.... I am flummoxed that anyone in this group would make such a rigid statement. After lving with my nineteen year old tabby for... nineteen years... I would question who is "slave" and who is "master" and kinds-sorta feel we are simply entities in an astonishingly loving and supportive relationship.
                          I have enjoyed the companionship of many animals, including a ferret who would leave home for a few days, and a rat named Jean Luc Picard who lived in my bookcase and pretty much ruled the house.
                           
                          Was Jean Luc a slave? Jean Luc would jump on my shoulder when he wanted to go outside (he liked to dig in the flower beds and forage) and would often remain, jumping up on the window sill when he wanted to come inside (the window was left cracked).
                           
                          As far as a vegan diet:  I am a vegetarian  but I believe before I begin throwing stones I might need to further clean up my act. Just because you do not eat meat or dairy products does not mean that you are not supporting organizations or groups that harm life- such as when you do not investigate how a particular cosmetic company tests it's products. So MANY things to consider.
                           
                          Lastly... Darwin stated, "Everything on this planet was born to eat and be eaten." 
                           


                          aniannalak <aniannalak@...> wrote:
                          Hi,


                          Animals are not "ours" to keep. They are healers. Just like the earth
                          is not ours and the air is not ours. We are all inhabitants of this
                          planet, and we all breathe air. "Keeping pets" is slavery.




                          Peace,


                          Ani Lak




                          > The problem I am faced with is that, like many people, I have
                          animals that I keep as pets.  Common pet animals like dogs and cats
                          are not vegetarians by nature and, in the wild, they kill and consume
                          other animals for food as many animals do.  There are a few
                          commercially made vegetarian foods available for dogs & cats, but both
                          my vet and I feel that these are not natural healthy diets as nature
                          intended these species to eat meat (and never mind that they taste so
                          bad many pets won't eat them LOL!).  If I am to feed my dogs and cats
                          an appropriate diet, this diet will contain meat and I often wonder if
                          I am generating negative karma every time I feed my dogs & cats? 
                          Obviously, if these same animals were running around in a natural
                          environment, they would kill and consume animals in order to survive,
                          so am I really doing something wrong-is there really negative karma
                          there?  I hate the fact that I have this meat pet food in my house,
                          but obviously if I do not feed them they will suffer and die and, if I
                          only feed them a vegetarian diet, they will eventually become ill,
                          suffer and die as well. 


                          >


                          >


                          > Just some thoughts...........


                          >


                          > Susan




                          Yahoo! Groups Links


                          Do you Yahoo!?
                          Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes

                          Yahoo! Groups Links

                        • Diane Glasby
                          If eating animals is wrong, should we try to prevent other animals from eating animals?
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jan 10, 2004
                            If eating animals is wrong, should we try to prevent other animals from eating animals?
                          • Diane Glasby
                            As my dog snoozes in his favorite chair on a snowy winter day, he hardly looks like a beast of burden to me. :) I think the partnership and companionship of
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jan 11, 2004
                              As my dog snoozes in his favorite chair on a snowy winter day, he hardly looks like a beast of burden to me. :)
                               
                              I think the partnership and companionship of humans and dogs and cats is a wonderful connection that transcends the division of species, and it's been going on for like 15,000 years. I don't know if you have any dogs, but they have a definite need for companionship and security and seek out your presence, and not just at dinner time. If  they didn't, it would be like trying to domesticate a squirrel or a deer. They'd just take off when ever food was plentiful again.
                               
                              I remember how my grandmother's dog would wait by the window every night for my uncle to arrive. I don't know how he knew when it was Friday.
                               
                              Pets seem to teach people empathy and altruism. I think one would have to be kind of cynical to call that just another form of "exploitation."
                               
                               
                               
                            • aniannalak
                              Buddhism is non-attachment. I question the vehemency of your responses to the statement. Buddhism is a lifestyle, an instruction manual, to speak. One does not
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jan 11, 2004
                                Buddhism is non-attachment. I question the vehemency of your responses
                                to the statement.




                                Buddhism is a lifestyle, an instruction manual, to speak. One does not
                                reach "the end", but it is a journey. "End" as many think, is
                                awareness or enlightenment. But since we are already enlightened - it
                                has already happened since all time, is but a figment of our own
                                imagination. So there is no goal, no end.




                                But, we can learn much as we go on our "journey". My statement was for
                                all to question motives. That is all. Sharing a domicile with a
                                friend, without attachement is joy. "Owning" or "keeping" a pet is
                                indeed taking away free will. There is much more to it. Your anger
                                belies your attachment.
                              • Ken Marianos
                                I assume you are replying to my reply to your original post. So here s my reply to your reply. :-) C-mon people, lighten up a little. What vehemency, what
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jan 11, 2004
                                  I assume you are replying to my reply to your original post. So here's
                                  my reply to your reply. :-) C-mon people, lighten up a little.

                                  What vehemency, what anger? You're reading things into my message that
                                  weren't there.

                                  I just found your statement a little over-the-top, that's all. You
                                  also didn't answer my question. What should I do with the afore
                                  mentioned animals?
                                  Let them loose to roam and run free (So they can die a horrible death,
                                  probably.)?
                                  I only attach to these animals as I attach to the human members of my
                                  family. Not all of us can be so far along the path as you seemingly are.
                                  You're right in that Buddhim is an instruction manuel on how to live
                                  your life. The Buddha also said that if, after studying his teachings,
                                  that they did not work for you, at this particular time in your path,
                                  to discard them.
                                  Well, attachment is one of the most difficult teachings to follow, I'm
                                  glad you have made a success of your study.

                                  Incidentally, as I type this I have a smile upon my face. You see, I
                                  enjoy "friendly" discussion of differing views. There is no reason for
                                  anger, because I may disagree with you or visa versa. I am not trying
                                  to bring you over to my side, and you will not be able to bring me to
                                  yours, unless I am happy doing so.

                                  I wish you only the best,
                                  Ken/

                                  --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "aniannalak" <aniannalak@y...> wrote:
                                  > Buddhism is non-attachment. I question the vehemency of your responses
                                  > to the statement.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Buddhism is a lifestyle, an instruction manual, to speak. One does not
                                  > reach "the end", but it is a journey. "End" as many think, is
                                  > awareness or enlightenment. But since we are already enlightened - it
                                  > has already happened since all time, is but a figment of our own
                                  > imagination. So there is no goal, no end.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > But, we can learn much as we go on our "journey". My statement was for
                                  > all to question motives. That is all. Sharing a domicile with a
                                  > friend, without attachement is joy. "Owning" or "keeping" a pet is
                                  > indeed taking away free will. There is much more to it. Your anger
                                  > belies your attachment.
                                • Ken Marianos
                                  Thank you Diane, I m definatly in agreement with you, there. Ken/ ... hardly looks like a beast of burden to me. :) ... cats is a wonderful connection that
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Jan 11, 2004
                                    Thank you Diane, I'm definatly in agreement with you, there.
                                    Ken/

                                    --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Diane Glasby" <dglasby@a...> wrote:
                                    > As my dog snoozes in his favorite chair on a snowy winter day, he
                                    hardly looks like a beast of burden to me. :)
                                    >
                                    > I think the partnership and companionship of humans and dogs and
                                    cats is a wonderful connection that transcends the division of
                                    species, and it's been going on for like 15,000 years. I don't know if
                                    you have any dogs, but they have a definite need for companionship and
                                    security and seek out your presence, and not just at dinner time. If
                                    they didn't, it would be like trying to domesticate a squirrel or a
                                    deer. They'd just take off when ever food was plentiful again.
                                    >
                                    > I remember how my grandmother's dog would wait by the window every
                                    night for my uncle to arrive. I don't know how he knew when it was
                                    Friday.
                                    >
                                    > Pets seem to teach people empathy and altruism. I think one would
                                    have to be kind of cynical to call that just another form of
                                    "exploitation."
                                  • aniannalak
                                    Maybe you are hearing finger pointing. I am saying that the line is very clear. When expressing reverence for all life we are expressing just that... reverence
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Jan 12, 2004
                                      Maybe you are hearing finger pointing. I am saying that the line is
                                      very clear. When expressing reverence for all life we are expressing
                                      just that... reverence for ALL life. Anything shy of this is not love
                                      or truth or compassion. This is an expression of experience, not
                                      dogmatic following. But one can practice by paying respect to the
                                      Buddha in all beings.




                                      Look at the people you consider as friends. Would you keep them from
                                      leaving your house or outside tied up? Would you not allow them to
                                      have a job, and to provide for themselves. If you take away their
                                      rights to be free and to provide for themselves, you are messing with
                                      their free will. That is called Stockholm Syndrome. It is very real,
                                      and pets fall into this category. "Ownership" and the idea in people's
                                      minds that they can keep an animal without regard to what the animal
                                      would like, as if we have the right. It is the same as with killing
                                      animals for food, with no regard. I am joining the two last statements
                                      with the word "regard". Regard in this context meaning: to have
                                      respect or esteem for. Reverence in all instances and we are all free.




                                      My statement was for


                                      > > all to question motives. That is all. Sharing a domicile with a


                                      > > friend, without attachement is joy. "Owning" or "keeping" a pet is


                                      > > indeed taking away free will.




                                      Please notice the words I put in quotes. The statement could be
                                      refraised to say: are YOUR animals friend or pet. And if you use the
                                      words YOUR or MINE or MY then you are again claiming ownership.
                                      Tricky, eh?




                                      If you still question it, please check out the dictionary for what
                                      these two terms mean, friend/pet. And watch the words that you are
                                      using. Words carry power, as does the energy behind them.




                                      This is not Buddhism 101 that I am expressing. This is Buddhism about
                                      1500. But Reverence is a very key expression, and it is to be found
                                      throughout the journey. This discussion about pets and vegetarianism
                                      was a good vehicle to express what reverence is.




                                      Hi Ken: I do not think I am very far along. We are learning from
                                      eachother. Thank you for sharing. I bow to the Buddha within you.




                                      In Peace and Highest Regard,


                                      Ani Lak
                                    • DeAnna@Williamson.org
                                      I m sorry. I ve been in the background witnessing this debate but I just have to put my two cents in. There is a big difference between my friends and my
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Jan 12, 2004
                                        I'm sorry. I've been in the background witnessing this debate but I
                                        just have to put my two cents in.
                                        There is a big difference between my friends and my pets.
                                        If I let my friends leave my house, they go to their own house where
                                        they can take care of themselves.
                                        If I let my pets out of my house, they run the risk of being hit by
                                        cars, starving to death or falling into the hands of the wrong
                                        people and being exposed to the elements.
                                        Yes, we've made pets dependent upon us but that happened centuries
                                        and centuries ago. I can't change that.
                                        Isn't part of Buddhism to accept things that we can't change and
                                        realize that there are wrongs in the world?
                                        I find nothing wrong with taking good care of my pets. They seem
                                        very happy and I certainly don't feel like a kidnapper or a bad
                                        person.

                                        No, I don't believe the line is clear. I believe that it's YOUR
                                        interpretation to the way things should be and I respect that. It's
                                        not right to say things are black and white. As I understand
                                        Buddhism, it teaches that the world is full of grey.

                                        You are entitled to your opinion but what would happen if we all
                                        suddenly agreed with you? What should we do? Turn our pets out
                                        into the streets so they can starve?

                                        DeAnna



                                        --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "aniannalak" <aniannalak@y...>
                                        wrote:
                                        > Maybe you are hearing finger pointing. I am saying that the line
                                        is
                                        > very clear. When expressing reverence for all life we are
                                        expressing
                                        > just that... reverence for ALL life. Anything shy of this is not
                                        love
                                        > or truth or compassion. This is an expression of experience, not
                                        > dogmatic following. But one can practice by paying respect to the
                                        > Buddha in all beings.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Look at the people you consider as friends. Would you keep them
                                        from
                                        > leaving your house or outside tied up? Would you not allow them to
                                        > have a job, and to provide for themselves. If you take away their
                                        > rights to be free and to provide for themselves, you are messing
                                        with
                                        > their free will. That is called Stockholm Syndrome. It is very
                                        real,
                                        > and pets fall into this category. "Ownership" and the idea in
                                        people's
                                        > minds that they can keep an animal without regard to what the
                                        animal
                                        > would like, as if we have the right. It is the same as with
                                        killing
                                        > animals for food, with no regard. I am joining the two last
                                        statements
                                        > with the word "regard". Regard in this context meaning: to have
                                        > respect or esteem for. Reverence in all instances and we are all
                                        free.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > My statement was for
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > > all to question motives. That is all. Sharing a domicile with
                                        a
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > > friend, without attachement is joy. "Owning" or "keeping" a
                                        pet is
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > > indeed taking away free will.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Please notice the words I put in quotes. The statement could be
                                        > refraised to say: are YOUR animals friend or pet. And if you use
                                        the
                                        > words YOUR or MINE or MY then you are again claiming ownership.
                                        > Tricky, eh?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > If you still question it, please check out the dictionary for what
                                        > these two terms mean, friend/pet. And watch the words that you are
                                        > using. Words carry power, as does the energy behind them.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > This is not Buddhism 101 that I am expressing. This is Buddhism
                                        about
                                        > 1500. But Reverence is a very key expression, and it is to be
                                        found
                                        > throughout the journey. This discussion about pets and
                                        vegetarianism
                                        > was a good vehicle to express what reverence is.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Hi Ken: I do not think I am very far along. We are learning from
                                        > eachother. Thank you for sharing. I bow to the Buddha within you.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > In Peace and Highest Regard,
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Ani Lak
                                      • aniannalak
                                        No, I don t think anyone should just agree with me. Discernment and discrimination in all cases. I am giving a point of view, and some insight into
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Jan 12, 2004
                                          No, I don't think anyone should just agree with me. Discernment and
                                          discrimination in all cases. I am giving a point of view, and some
                                          insight into non-attachment and reverence. The point being for all to
                                          accept where they are and to come from there. But there is always
                                          something new to learn.




                                          Compassion for your friends, either animals or humans. The key is
                                          better understanding and a wish to transcend that which is not truth
                                          and love of the highest expression. What is best for ALL concerned at
                                          every moment; and with the idea that we cnange the future, by our
                                          actions in the present.




                                          So - if you call someone a jerk, then your words show what your
                                          thoughts are. When you call an animal your PET then you are again
                                          expressing your thoughts. Look up pet in the dictionary. Look up
                                          friend in the dictionary. I said if you keep a pet. Animals can be
                                          your friend. If you choose to identify them as YOUR PET, then you are
                                          setting the interaction up for you and them in that way. Words carry
                                          energy. Make sense? Have you labeled them as friend or pet? And how do
                                          you change it to friendship if it is "ownership"? Setting animals
                                          "free" once they have been domesticated, in most cases is not
                                          compassionate nor having reverence for them. What is reverence? How
                                          does one become reverent? How do we express reverence?




                                          This is just an example of the much bigger issue of Reverence, and
                                          Harmlessness in all you do.




                                          Joy on your healing journey!


                                          Peace,


                                          Ani Lak




                                          --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, DeAnna@W... wrote:


                                          > I'm sorry. I've been in the background witnessing this debate but I


                                          > just have to put my two cents in.


                                          > There is a big difference between my friends and my pets.


                                          > If I let my friends leave my house, they go to their own house where


                                          > they can take care of themselves.


                                          > If I let my pets out of my house, they run the risk of being hit by


                                          > cars, starving to death or falling into the hands of the wrong


                                          > people and being exposed to the elements.


                                          > Yes, we've made pets dependent upon us but that happened centuries


                                          > and centuries ago. I can't change that.


                                          > Isn't part of Buddhism to accept things that we can't change and


                                          > realize that there are wrongs in the world?


                                          > I find nothing wrong with taking good care of my pets. They seem


                                          > very happy and I certainly don't feel like a kidnapper or a bad


                                          > person.


                                          >


                                          > No, I don't believe the line is clear. I believe that it's YOUR


                                          > interpretation to the way things should be and I respect that. It's


                                          > not right to say things are black and white. As I understand


                                          > Buddhism, it teaches that the world is full of grey.


                                          >


                                          > You are entitled to your opinion but what would happen if we all


                                          > suddenly agreed with you? What should we do? Turn our pets out


                                          > into the streets so they can starve?


                                          >


                                          > DeAnna


                                          >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "aniannalak" <aniannalak@y...>


                                          > wrote:


                                          > > Maybe you are hearing finger pointing. I am saying that the line


                                          > is


                                          > > very clear. When expressing reverence for all life we are


                                          > expressing


                                          > > just that... reverence for ALL life. Anything shy of this is not


                                          > love


                                          > > or truth or compassion. This is an expression of experience, not


                                          > > dogmatic following. But one can practice by paying respect to the


                                          > > Buddha in all beings.


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > > Look at the people you consider as friends. Would you keep them


                                          > from


                                          > > leaving your house or outside tied up? Would you not allow them to


                                          > > have a job, and to provide for themselves. If you take away their


                                          > > rights to be free and to provide for themselves, you are messing


                                          > with


                                          > > their free will. That is called Stockholm Syndrome. It is very


                                          > real,


                                          > > and pets fall into this category. "Ownership" and the idea in


                                          > people's


                                          > > minds that they can keep an animal without regard to what the


                                          > animal


                                          > > would like, as if we have the right. It is the same as with


                                          > killing


                                          > > animals for food, with no regard. I am joining the two last


                                          > statements


                                          > > with the word "regard". Regard in this context meaning: to have


                                          > > respect or esteem for. Reverence in all instances and we are all


                                          > free.


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > > My statement was for


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > > > > all to question motives. That is all. Sharing a domicile with


                                          > a


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > > > > friend, without attachement is joy. "Owning" or "keeping" a


                                          > pet is


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > > > > indeed taking away free will.


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > > Please notice the words I put in quotes. The statement could be


                                          > > refraised to say: are YOUR animals friend or pet. And if you use


                                          > the


                                          > > words YOUR or MINE or MY then you are again claiming ownership.


                                          > > Tricky, eh?


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > > If you still question it, please check out the dictionary for what


                                          > > these two terms mean, friend/pet. And watch the words that you are


                                          > > using. Words carry power, as does the energy behind them.


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > > This is not Buddhism 101 that I am expressing. This is Buddhism


                                          > about


                                          > > 1500. But Reverence is a very key expression, and it is to be


                                          > found


                                          > > throughout the journey. This discussion about pets and


                                          > vegetarianism


                                          > > was a good vehicle to express what reverence is.


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > > Hi Ken: I do not think I am very far along. We are learning from


                                          > > eachother. Thank you for sharing. I bow to the Buddha within you.


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > > In Peace and Highest Regard,


                                          > >


                                          > >


                                          > > Ani Lak
                                        • Diane Glasby
                                          What I don t understand is why you see pet ownership as a master/slave relationship, when it s really a kind of symbiosis. My dog could kill me if he wanted,
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Jan 12, 2004
                                            What I don't understand is why you see pet ownership as a master/slave relationship, when it's really a kind of symbiosis. My dog could kill me if he wanted, and he could certainly run away any time. Although I am "smarter," (or I think I am) he is not trapped or exploited. I think he stays simply because he is happy. 
                                            Look at the people you consider as friends. Would you keep them from
                                            leaving your house or outside tied up? Would you not allow them to
                                            have a job, and to provide for themselves. If you take away their
                                            rights to be free and to provide for themselves, you are messing with
                                            their free will. That is called Stockholm Syndrome. It is very real,
                                            and pets fall into this category. "Ownership" and the idea in people's
                                            minds that they can keep an animal without regard to what the animal
                                            would like, as if we have the right. It is the same as with killing
                                            animals for food, with no regard. I am joining the two last statements
                                            with the word "regard". Regard in this context meaning: to have
                                            respect or esteem for. Reverence in all instances and we are all free.




                                          • bvgftr2
                                            not a lurker just an infrequent reader... this discussion touches all of us... should we not consider the sad fact that in 1st world nations animals are not
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Jan 12, 2004
                                              not a lurker just an infrequent reader...
                                              this discussion touches all of us...

                                              should we not consider the sad fact that in 1st world nations
                                              animals are not simply slaughtered in the billions...
                                              but intentionally given birth to for the only purpose to slaughter
                                              each and everyone of them...billions upon billions of animals raised
                                              in grotesque and horrid conditions and then slaughtered inhumanely to
                                              end up on the plate of WHO....
                                              to stuff the guts of humans that have destroyed the planet with their
                                              negligence and indifference not just to each other, not just to their
                                              own children, but to everything necessary to build and sustain
                                              civilization!

                                              in the 3rd and 4th world countries everything that moves is killed
                                              and consumed so they say....the chinese probably eat more mammals,
                                              fish, insects, and amphibians in one day than the rest of the world
                                              all together...there even strong and evidence supported rumors that
                                              the chinese eat human fetus and that the koreans beat their pets to
                                              tenderize the meat prior to cooking them and that the north koreans
                                              are eating their children as we speak...you will find ample evidence
                                              of these facts on the web, true or untrue....

                                              so my point is this,
                                              eating meat isn't as bad as intentionally engineering and
                                              orchestrating Genocide of billions of sentient beings...
                                              with no end in sight...perhaps even on other planets if we
                                              can never get an end to this nightmare...

                                              and therefore each of us who has taking a vow to help end the
                                              suffering of all sentient beings must somehow attempt to do so...
                                              and the method, of course, is unique to each individual and their
                                              circumstances...

                                              may all beings be free from suffering

                                              sherab palmo
                                            • Ken Marianos
                                              ... From: aniannalak Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:28:49 -0000 To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: re:Pets
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Jan 12, 2004
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: "aniannalak" <aniannalak@...>
                                                Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:28:49 -0000
                                                To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: re:Pets

                                                <html><body>


                                                <tt>
                                                If a person is to come from the attitude of "what to do" with your <BR>
                                                pets, then question why you are asking that question. <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                You still haven't answered my question. In your context, what should a person do who has several animals (pets, if you prefer) living with him/her?
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                Maybe you are hearing finger pointing. I am saying that the line is <BR>
                                                very clear. When expressing reverence for all life we are expressing <BR>
                                                just that... reverence for ALL life. Anything shy of this is not love <BR>
                                                or truth or compassion. This is an expression of experience, not <BR>
                                                dogmatic following. But one can practice by paying respect to the <BR>
                                                Buddha in all beings.<BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                Hearing finger pointing? no. I am just discussing a point, you made, and trying to get an answer to a question.
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                Look at the people you consider as friends. Would you keep them from <BR>
                                                leaving your house or outside tied up? Would you not allow them to <BR>
                                                have a job, and to provide for themselves. If you take away their <BR>
                                                rights to be free and to provide for themselves, you are messing with <BR>
                                                their free will. That is called Stockholm Syndrome. It is very real, <BR>
                                                and pets fall into this category. "Ownership" and the idea in people's <BR>
                                                minds that they can keep an animal without regard to what the animal <BR>
                                                would like, as if we have the right. It is the same as with killing <BR>
                                                animals for food, with no regard. I am joining the two last statements <BR>
                                                with the word "regard". Regard in this context meaning: to have <BR>
                                                respect or esteem for. Reverence in all instances and we are all free. <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                The dogs that live with me are allowed to run free, on this property, (26 acres) they are not allowed off the property, because people, around this part of the country, shoot dogs, running loose, to protect their livestock. You, obviously, don't live in the country, or at least not that part of it where people make a living from the land.
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                My statement was for <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                > > all to question motives. That is all. Sharing a domicile with a <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                > > friend, without attachement is joy. "Owning" or "keeping" a pet is <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                > > indeed taking away free will. <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                I see your point, and I don't wholely disagree with you. I'm just trying to get you to see where I stand, without the prejudging. You don't have to agree, just see that I have a valid point.
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                Please notice the words I put in quotes. The statement could be <BR>
                                                refraised to say: are YOUR animals friend or pet. And if you use the <BR>
                                                words YOUR or MINE or MY then you are again claiming ownership. <BR>
                                                Tricky, eh?<BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                You're right, there. Habit, more than anything. Just like saying, "My wife." I certainly do not own her (she would be more than happy to tell you that), we've worked together to make this life enjoyable.
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                If you still question it, please check out the dictionary for what <BR>
                                                these two terms mean, friend/pet. And watch the words that you are <BR>
                                                using. Words carry power.<BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                This is not Buddhism 101 that I am expressing. This is Buddhism about <BR>
                                                1500. But Reverence is a very key expression, and it is to be found <BR>
                                                throughout the journey. This discussion about pets and vegetarianism <BR>
                                                was a good vehicle to express what reverence is.<BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                Hi Ken: I do not think I am very far along. We are learning from <BR>
                                                eachother. Thank you for sharing. I bow to the Buddha within you. <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                I, too, find that discussion and open minds can do nothing but help. I hope I have not offended. One does not need to agree with a point to see that, in another situation, it may have merit.
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                In Peace and Highest Regard,<BR>
                                                <BR>

                                                <BR>
                                                Ani Lak<BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                Metta,
                                                Ken/
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                <BR>
                                                </tt>



                                                <br>
                                                <tt><hr width="500">
                                                <b>Yahoo! Groups Links</b><br>
                                                <ul>
                                                <li>To visit your group on the web, go to:<br><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhism_101/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhism_101/</a><br>
                                                <li>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<br><a href="mailto:Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
                                                <li>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.
                                                </ul>
                                                </tt>
                                                </br>

                                                </body></html>


                                                --
                                                ______________________________________________
                                                Check out the latest SMS services @ http://www.linuxmail.org
                                                This allows you to send and receive SMS through your mailbox.


                                                Powered by Outblaze
                                              • Ken Marianos
                                                Point, very well taken. I couldn t agree more. Metta, Ken/ ... From: bvgftr2 Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 02:12:44 -0000 To:
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Jan 13, 2004
                                                  Point, very well taken. I couldn't agree more.
                                                  Metta,
                                                  Ken/
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: "bvgftr2" <bvgftr2@...>
                                                  Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 02:12:44 -0000
                                                  To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Should Buddhists be vegetarians ?

                                                  <html><body>


                                                  <tt>
                                                  not a lurker just an infrequent reader...<BR>
                                                  this discussion touches all of us...<BR>
                                                  <BR>
                                                  should we not consider the sad fact that in 1st world nations<BR>
                                                  animals are not simply slaughtered in the billions...<BR>
                                                  but intentionally given birth to for the only purpose to slaughter <BR>
                                                  each and everyone of them...billions upon billions of animals raised <BR>
                                                  in grotesque and horrid conditions and then slaughtered inhumanely to <BR>
                                                  end up on the plate of WHO....<BR>
                                                  to stuff the guts of humans that have destroyed the planet with their <BR>
                                                  negligence and indifference not just to each other, not just to their <BR>
                                                  own children, but to everything necessary to build and sustain <BR>
                                                  civilization!<BR>
                                                  <BR>
                                                  in the 3rd and 4th world countries everything that moves is killed <BR>
                                                  and consumed so they say....the chinese probably eat more mammals, <BR>
                                                  fish, insects, and amphibians in one day than the rest of the world <BR>
                                                  all together...there even strong and evidence supported rumors that <BR>
                                                  the chinese eat human fetus and that the koreans beat their pets to <BR>
                                                  tenderize the meat prior to cooking them and that the north koreans <BR>
                                                  are eating their children as we speak...you will find ample evidence <BR>
                                                  of these facts on the web, true or untrue....<BR>
                                                  <BR>
                                                  so my point is this,<BR>
                                                  eating meat isn't as bad as intentionally engineering and <BR>
                                                  orchestrating Genocide of billions of sentient beings...<BR>
                                                  with no end in sight...perhaps even on other planets if we<BR>
                                                  can never get an end to this nightmare...<BR>
                                                  <BR>
                                                  and therefore each of us who has taking a vow to help end the <BR>
                                                  suffering of all sentient beings must somehow attempt to do so...<BR>
                                                  and the method, of course, is unique to each individual and their <BR>
                                                  circumstances...<BR>
                                                  <BR>
                                                  may all beings be free from suffering<BR>
                                                  <BR>
                                                  sherab palmo<BR>
                                                  <BR>
                                                  <BR>
                                                  <BR>
                                                  <BR>
                                                  </tt>



                                                  <br>
                                                  <tt><hr width="500">
                                                  <b>Yahoo! Groups Links</b><br>
                                                  <ul>
                                                  <li>To visit your group on the web, go to:<br><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhism_101/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhism_101/</a><br>
                                                  <li>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<br><a href="mailto:Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
                                                  <li>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.
                                                  </ul>
                                                  </tt>
                                                  </br>

                                                  </body></html>


                                                  --
                                                  ______________________________________________
                                                  Check out the latest SMS services @ http://www.linuxmail.org
                                                  This allows you to send and receive SMS through your mailbox.


                                                  Powered by Outblaze
                                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.