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  • Sally Kirkham
    Lotta. I read your post with some surprise, having read many others from this group from people saying that they are vegetarian or vegan. I have been a
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 7, 2004

      Lotta.

       

      I read your post with some surprise, having read many others from this group from people saying that they are vegetarian or vegan.  I have been a vegetarian all my life, and have bought up my daughter as a vegetarian (with discussions with her on this topic, as I believe in free will in her choices).

      I felt mildly offended by your post, feeling that you did not acknowledge those of us who have strived to keep ‘no harm’ from our diets as well as the rest of our lives. I also felt that, whilst I disagree with the most of Willy’s points, he is only seeking information on Buddhism and comes to us for this and for debates.   I do hope that some replies to his post will show him that, although the meat producers to gain bad kharma from their actions, eating it also does – given that without your action in eating it, the producer would reap no rewards from their cruelty.  Personally, I am very well informed about the treatment of animals these days, living as I do in a rural farming community.  Perhaps assumptions of a lack of knowledge of others parts would be better avoided when offering information? J

      For myself, I eat eggs and milk only, refusing fish and meat.  I teach my daughter the reasons I do this and from her own free will, she chooses not to also.  Recently she asked to ‘be allowed’ to eat meat, which we discussed and she tried it.  She then found that her love for animals outweighed the meat she was able to eat and stopped. 

      Sally

       


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    • Lotta
      I am so sorry to have offended you, it is not what I meant. I was very, very angry and upset after reading willys post and I guess I got a bit carried away
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 8, 2004
        I am so sorry to have offended you, it is not what I meant.
        I was very, very angry and upset after reading "willys" post and I
        guess I got a bit carried away :) I haven't been in this group for a
        long, and so far I have found only you and owner, Susan, are
        vegetarians. Ofcource I realize this group is for beginners, and
        some might be like me, not actually buddhists at all. But I didn't
        come to think of that when I wrote that post in anger, only
        afterwards.

        You should be proud of yourself and of the way you have raised your
        daughter! I am glad to hear she chooses the animals instead of meat!

        Please visitmy group at
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PromotingVeganism/ if you want to talk
        some more :) It would be great to hear who is it like to have been
        vegetarian all of your life!

        Lotta

        P.S. Again, sorry everybody who felt offended, I am not good at
        controlling my feelings, I hope meditating will help that in time.
        It is just that I feel so strongly about this issue!




        --Sally wrote:


        > Lotta.
        >
        > I read your post with some surprise, having read many others from
        this
        > group from people saying that they are vegetarian or vegan. I
        have been
        > a vegetarian all my life, and have bought up my daughter as a
        vegetarian
        > (with discussions with her on this topic, as I believe in free
        will in
        > her choices).
        > I felt mildly offended by your post, feeling that you did not
        > acknowledge those of us who have strived to keep `no harm' from our
        > diets as well as the rest of our lives. I also felt that, whilst I
        > disagree with the most of Willy's points, he is only seeking
        information
        > on Buddhism and comes to us for this and for debates. I do hope
        that
        > some replies to his post will show him that, although the meat
        producers
        > to gain bad kharma from their actions, eating it also does – given
        that
        > without your action in eating it, the producer would reap no
        rewards
        > from their cruelty. Personally, I am very well informed about the
        > treatment of animals these days, living as I do in a rural farming
        > community. Perhaps assumptions of a lack of knowledge of others
        parts
        > would be better avoided when offering information? :-)
        > For myself, I eat eggs and milk only, refusing fish and meat. I
        teach
        > my daughter the reasons I do this and from her own free will, she
        > chooses not to also. Recently she asked to `be allowed' to eat
        meat,
        > which we discussed and she tried it. She then found that her love
        for
        > animals outweighed the meat she was able to eat and stopped.
        > Sally
        >
        >
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      • Sally Kirkham
        Lotta. Thankyou for your reply. Often I find I have to walk away and reply to mails the following day, so to avoid biting my tongue too often :-) I am proud
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 8, 2004

          Lotta.

           

          Thankyou for your reply.  Often I find I have to walk away and reply to mails the following day, so to avoid biting my tongue too often J

           

          I am proud of my daughter’s choice and the mature manner in which she made it – particularly so because of the circumstances.  Her father is remarrying; both her father and the new wife eat meat, as do her children.  Therefore she felt, at aged 9, that she was being a nuisance and wanted not to be, thus the desire to eat meat and conform.  I allowed this, for several reasons.  The strongest is that I do not believe that my beliefs should be forced on any other person – IE my partner eats and cooks meat in our home, practices a different religion and so forth.  The others are that I wanted her to feel she could discuss this decision with me without feeling as though I may judge her badly for wanting to think about it.  Because of this, when she decided not to eat meat, she asked me to help her express this with her father.   

           

          People newly come to Buddhism may find giving up meat particularly harsh and thus we should perhaps come to them with thoughts of loving kindness, aiding them in their practice, leading slowly towards a point when giving up meat is natural and right for them.  *grins*  I was, luckily for me, a vegetarian long before I became a Buddhist, having been raised as one, but my parents assure me giving up meat is as hard as giving up smoking J

           

          Lotta, I hope the meditation helps with your control of your tongue – I know mine took many years of biting before I gained sufficient control and still sometimes it slipped from my grip and speaks words best left silent J

           

          With love.

           

           

          Sally

           


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        • Elizabeth Westlake
          I think it s great that so many of you have chosen to be veggie. I have not. And I can see that many in this group are faily disrespectful to those who do not
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 8, 2004
            I think it's great that so many of you have chosen to be veggie. I have not. And I can see that many in this group are faily disrespectful to those who do not believe the way they do, so I plan to unsubscribe after this post. You might want to remember that this is not a vegetarian Buddhist group, and there are Buddhists who do not believe as you believe.
             
            Elizabeth in Seattle
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 6:24 AM
            Subject: RE: [Buddhism_101] Re: _0_ all

            Lotta.

             

            Thankyou for your reply.  Often I find I have to walk away and reply to mails the following day, so to avoid biting my tongue too often J

             

            I am proud of my daughter’s choice and the mature manner in which she made it – particularly so because of the circumstances.  Her father is remarrying; both her father and the new wife eat meat, as do her children.  Therefore she felt, at aged 9, that she was being a nuisance and wanted not to be, thus the desire to eat meat and conform.  I allowed this, for several reasons.  The strongest is that I do not believe that my beliefs should be forced on any other person – IE my partner eats and cooks meat in our home, practices a different religion and so forth.  The others are that I wanted her to feel she could discuss this decision with me without feeling as though I may judge her badly for wanting to think about it.  Because of this, when she decided not to eat meat, she asked me to help her express this with her father.   

             

            People newly come to Buddhism may find giving up meat particularly harsh and thus we should perhaps come to them with thoughts of loving kindness, aiding them in their practice, leading slowly towards a point when giving up meat is natural and right for them.  *grins*  I was, luckily for me, a vegetarian long before I became a Buddhist, having been raised as one, but my parents assure me giving up meat is as hard as giving up smoking J

             

            Lotta, I hope the meditation helps with your control of your tongue – I know mine took many years of biting before I gained sufficient control and still sometimes it slipped from my grip and speaks words best left silent J

             

            With love.

             

             

            Sally

             





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          • Corry
            I have been lurking for a week and already I see the storm of disagreement amongst the members. This saddens me very much. We are not on this rock to play the
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 8, 2004
              I have been lurking for a week and already I see the storm of disagreement amongst the members. This saddens me very much. We are not on this rock to play the power trip one over the other. We must do what our innermost heart tells us to do. Whether it be vegan or not has little to do with it. Personally I have been both.... now for health reason I must add some fish and beef to my diet. The veggie diet is not complete...... although many would disagree with me I know. It is for this reason that I also will resign from this list.
              Hope you can all lay your differences aside and simply enjoy a relationship one with the other.
              namaste
              corry
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 10:36 AM
              Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: _0_ all

              I think it's great that so many of you have chosen to be veggie. I have not. And I can see that many in this group are faily disrespectful to those who do not believe the way they do, so I plan to unsubscribe after this post. You might want to remember that this is not a vegetarian Buddhist group, and there are Buddhists who do not believe as you believe.
               
              Elizabeth in Seattle
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 6:24 AM
              Subject: RE: [Buddhism_101] Re: _0_ all

              Lotta.

               

              Thankyou for your reply.  Often I find I have to walk away and reply to mails the following day, so to avoid biting my tongue too often J

               

              I am proud of my daughter’s choice and the mature manner in which she made it – particularly so because of the circumstances.  Her father is remarrying; both her father and the new wife eat meat, as do her children.  Therefore she felt, at aged 9, that she was being a nuisance and wanted not to be, thus the desire to eat meat and conform.  I allowed this, for several reasons.  The strongest is that I do not believe that my beliefs should be forced on any other person – IE my partner eats and cooks meat in our home, practices a different religion and so forth.  The others are that I wanted her to feel she could discuss this decision with me without feeling as though I may judge her badly for wanting to think about it.  Because of this, when she decided not to eat meat, she asked me to help her express this with her father.   

               

              People newly come to Buddhism may find giving up meat particularly harsh and thus we should perhaps come to them with thoughts of loving kindness, aiding them in their practice, leading slowly towards a point when giving up meat is natural and right for them.  *grins*  I was, luckily for me, a vegetarian long before I became a Buddhist, having been raised as one, but my parents assure me giving up meat is as hard as giving up smoking J

               

              Lotta, I hope the meditation helps with your control of your tongue – I know mine took many years of biting before I gained sufficient control and still sometimes it slipped from my grip and speaks words best left silent J

               

              With love.

               

               

              Sally

               





              Yahoo! Groups Links


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            • tribble_2003
              I don t see a debate on beliefs as a storm of disagreement - I see it as an exchange of thoughts and views. I am saddened that you do not see it this way.
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 8, 2004
                I don't see a debate on beliefs as a storm of disagreement - I see
                it as an exchange of thoughts and views. I am saddened that you do
                not see it this way. Neither Lotta nor my posts were meant as power
                trips but an exchange of views that allowed both of us to more
                clearly see the position of the other.

                In my post I particularly stated that I believe in people's right to
                choose, and I am sorry that clearly hasn't come across to you,
                during your reading of it.

                Again, I am sad that you have made the decision to leave the list.

                I do not believe that all buddhists must believe precisely the same,
                and I do not believe that an exchange of views, however differing,
                is wrong.

                Sally
              • Sally Kirkham
                Hi Elizabeth, I’m sorry that you found my post disrespectful to those who do not believe in being vegetarian – I must have phrased it badly, since I firmly
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 8, 2004

                  Hi Elizabeth,

                   

                  I’m sorry that you found my post disrespectful to those who do not believe in being vegetarian – I must have phrased it badly, since I firmly believe in free choice in this sort of thing.  I am sorry that you have decided to leave.

                   

                  Sally.

                   

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Elizabeth Westlake [mailto:wonder26@...]
                  Sent:
                  08 January 2004 15:37
                  To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: _0_ all

                   

                  I think it's great that so many of you have chosen to be veggie. I have not. And I can see that many in this group are faily disrespectful to those who do not believe the way they do, so I plan to unsubscribe after this post. You might want to remember that this is not a vegetarian Buddhist group, and there are Buddhists who do not believe as you believe.

                   

                  ·         Elizabeth in Seattle


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                • Lotta
                  Thank you Sally for backing me up so to speak! Please visit my archive Promoting Veganism sometimes. Also If you find good links or articles you could post
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 10, 2004
                    Thank you Sally for backing me up so to speak! Please visit my
                    archive "Promoting Veganism" sometimes. Also If you find good links
                    or articles you could post :)

                    Lotta

                    P.S. Funny thing, that woman who left, said this not a vegetarian
                    Buddhism group. Well, the question is what is this then? A CARNIvore
                    Buddhism group? I doubt it.


                    --Sally wrote:

                    > I don't see a debate on beliefs as a storm of disagreement - I see
                    > it as an exchange of thoughts and views. I am saddened that you
                    do
                    > not see it this way. Neither Lotta nor my posts were meant as
                    power
                    > trips but an exchange of views that allowed both of us to more
                    > clearly see the position of the other.
                    >
                    > In my post I particularly stated that I believe in people's right
                    to
                    > choose, and I am sorry that clearly hasn't come across to you,
                    > during your reading of it.
                    >
                    > Again, I am sad that you have made the decision to leave the list.
                    >
                    > I do not believe that all buddhists must believe precisely the
                    same,
                    > and I do not believe that an exchange of views, however differing,
                    > is wrong.
                    >
                    > Sally
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