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Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Patience and discussion

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  • Staes 88
    This is so true. More and more it seems to be the culture to have a heated argument and call it a discussion. I find my self often more worried about why I m
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 4, 2006
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      This is so true. More and more it seems to be the culture to have a heated argument and call it a discussion. I find my self often more worried about why I'm right and how I may win the debate. In hind sight, this often takes very small issue's that don't matter and allows them to generate allot of anger. I try to understand where I developed these traits, but I'm not sure. One can see it everywhere in my country. We argue about everything; religion, sports, politics, nothing is off limits. The more arguments a TV program has the better its ratings. Personally, right speech is one of the hardest precepts to follow and, for me, it may be the most important.
       
      Metta,
      Staes
       
       
       
       
      On 3/4/06, sanghatasutra02 <sanpadro@...> wrote:


      --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Allen" <jayandrewallen@...> wrote:
      >
      > I wrote a blog post (
      > http://buddhaschildren.blogspot.com/2006/03/worrying-about-ourselves.html )
      > in response to many of the fights and bickering I've seen breaking out on
      > other Buddhism discussion forums. Of course, whether it strikes a chord with
      > anyone or simply makes people angry with ME remains to be seen. ;-)

      =D> Jay, I enjoyed your sharing that list.  I'll take a peek at your blog, but maybe we can discuss in here too, if others don't mind terribly.

      It's an issue for me too.  I've seen people who claim to be learned Buddhists with "big titles" (Geshe, Loppon, etc.) be downright cruel in other venues.  At a certain point, some anger/attitude might be understandable, but in a public venue ( i.e. not one-to-one teachings between teacher/student) it's too rough for me to cope with.  The only way I "deal with it" is to leave the site.

      I can speak for myself in that it's difficult to realize that much of my reacting to them was self-cherishment, but I realized a LOT of it was upset on behalf of the others who couldn't sort it out like I was learning to do.  I expect (perhaps incorrectly) better behavior from "senior practitioners" and am sorely dissapointed when I see the opposite.

      I suppose the problem is that the paucity of kindness and consideration in society keeps getting worse, and more and more people get "used to" being less and less kind, that it's harder to pull out of such behavior.  At the same time people are also more and more "sensitive" toward their own self-cherishment and any perceived attack on that self causes huge amts of friction.  I know from personal experience that anything you say, no matter what your intent, can be misinterpreted in a huge way, and you become the demon.

      The only way I've been dealing with it is to limit what I say and where I say it, while constantly taking refuge as best as I can.  I also try make it as apparent as I can, since the internet lacks the ability for true non-verbal communication, to expose my intent, but again... even that is only as effective as the person reading.

      You're not alone friend.  I'm done rambling, and off to take a peek at your blog.

      _()_

       



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    • sanghatasutra02
      ... http://buddhaschildren.blogspot.com/2006/03/compassion-and-rhetoric.html ... [=D ] Found it! Thanks dear friend. I d have to say that s an interesting
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 5, 2006
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        --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Allen" <jayandrewallen@...> wrote:
        >
        > On 3/4/06, sanghatasutra02 sanpadro@... wrote:
        > >
        > > I tried your link but it says it's "not found". Phooey... LOL. Ah
        > > well, such is my karma.
        >
        >
        > Bah - my bad because I changed the title. :-/ Here's the new link:
        >
        > http://buddhaschildren.blogspot.com/2006/03/compassion-and-rhetoric.html
        >
        > -J-

        =D> Found it!  Thanks dear friend.  I'd have to say that's an interesting entry.  It's a problem that is merely a result of the perceptions and actions of both sides of the communication equation and a failure, usually, on whichever side fails to put the brakes on the problem. 

        I find it easier to make an attempt, if none has been attempted, to understand and maybe enter a humble opinion, but if it keeps going on and on... I walk away.  No sense standing in the fire longer... you just get more and more charred karmically. 

        I adore people, no matter how cruel or crude they can be, and I realized that the buck stops here... right here in my own lap.  I can stop the anger, or sniffling I feel, by realizing the true nature of the behavior going on.  I can try to correct the situation where I'm able or capable of doing so, and in failure of getting through, I leave them to their bad actions, and try to offer merit on their behalf... knowing I'm terribly flawed too... little brat that I am.  If it's someone people are asking me directly about in search of a teacher, then I note, where proper, the FACTS ONLY... being as fair as I can.

        Another thing... I've mentioned this before, and I beg forgiveness for being repetitive, but I've found that silence is sometimes the wisest choice, where communication failure is likely.

        I hope this offends none and helps many.

        _()_ 

      • Jay Allen
        ... Agreed. I think it s indicative of the tendency we *all* have to want to be right, to shore up our position, to defend ourselves . It s so prevalent in
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 5, 2006
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          On 3/5/06, sanghatasutra02 <sanpadro@...> wrote:

          Found it!  Thanks dear friend.  I'd have to say that's an interesting entry.  It's a problem that is merely a result of the perceptions and actions of both sides of the communication equation and a failure, usually, on whichever side fails to put the brakes on.

          Agreed. I think it's indicative of the tendency we *all* have to want to be right, to shore up our position, to "defend ourselves". It's so prevalent in our culture that it's very easy to get sucked in.

          Pema Chodron talked about this very eloquently in the context of controversial teachers in an interview with Tricycle:

          http://www.purifymind.com/RightWrong.htm

          I adore people, no matter how cruel or crude they can be, and I realized that the buck stops here... right here in my own lap.  I can stop the anger, or sniffling I feel, by realizing the true nature of the behavior going on.  I can try to correct the situation where I'm able or capable of doing so, and in failure of getting through, I leave them to their bad actions, and try to offer merit on their behalf... knowing I'm terribly flawed too... little brat that I am. 

          I dare say that we all have our own inner little brat. ;-)

          Here's a question: Do you think too many of us Westerners put too much emphasis on "community", and expect too much out of it? The thought occurred to me last night while reading what Deshung Rinpoche wrote about how we can't truly help people until we ourselves become enlightened Buddhas. Our communities are full of well-intentioned folk, but I dare say few of us are Buddhas! We cherish community so much in our latter-century  progressive culture that we've even redefined the word "sangha" to include all practitioners, not just bodhisattvas. And that high expectation may be part of the problem.

          May all sentient beings benefit from this discussion.

          In love, peace, and Dharma,

          -J-

          --
          Jay Allen

          If there is one thing that will cause you the greatest harm you could ever experience in samsara, it is the anger within your own mind.

                  - H.E. Deshung Rinpoche III
        • sanghatasutra02
          ... occurred ... we ... Our ... us are ... progressive ... part ... Well, psychologically speaking, we are social animals by nature, no matter how we evolve or
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 5, 2006
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            > Here's a question: Do you think too many of us Westerners put too much
            > emphasis on "community", and expect too much out of it? The thought occurred
            > to me last night while reading what Deshung Rinpoche wrote about how we
            > can't truly help people until we ourselves become enlightened Buddhas. Our
            > communities are full of well-intentioned folk, but I dare say few of us are
            > Buddhas! We cherish community so much in our latter-century progressive
            > culture that we've even redefined the word "sangha" to include all
            > practitioners, not just bodhisattvas. And that high expectation may be part
            > of the problem.

            Well, psychologically speaking, we are social animals by nature, no matter how we evolve or not.  Frankly I think too many people now expect community to serve their sense of self and this tendency to "redefine" things is part of that.  I think, and this is just my opinion... too many people expect Buddhism to stretch to fit their ways of thinking, instead of stretching and opening our minds to fit Buddhism... and I'm not just talking culturally, I'm talking spiritually, only.

            _()_

             

          • R P
            Sorry I am new but I wanted to say I agree. I struggle with wanting to be right and wanting everyone to know it. It is hard for me to let go and just shut
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 7, 2006
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              Sorry I am new but I wanted to say I agree. I struggle with wanting to be right and wanting everyone to know it.  It is hard for me to "let go" and just shut up.  HAHA  I am working everyday though!! 
              Rachel

              Staes 88 <staes88@...> wrote:
              This is so true. More and more it seems to be the culture to have a heated argument and call it a discussion. I find my self often more worried about why I'm right and how I may win the debate. In hind sight, this often takes very small issue's that don't matter and allows them to generate allot of anger. I try to understand where I developed these traits, but I'm not sure. One can see it everywhere in my country. We argue about everything; religion, sports, politics, nothing is off limits. The more arguments a TV program has the better its ratings. Personally, right speech is one of the hardest precepts to follow and, for me, it may be the most important.
               
              Metta,
              Staes
               
               
               
               
              On 3/4/06, sanghatasutra02 <sanpadro@...> wrote:

              --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Allen" <jayandrewallen@...> wrote:
              >
              > I wrote a blog post (
              > http://buddhaschildren.blogspot.com/2006/03/worrying-about-ourselves.html )
              > in response to many of the fights and bickering I've seen breaking out on
              > other Buddhism discussion forums. Of course, whether it strikes a chord with
              > anyone or simply makes people angry with ME remains to be seen. ;-)
              =D> Jay, I enjoyed your sharing that list.  I'll take a peek at your blog, but maybe we can discuss in here too, if others don't mind terribly.
              It's an issue for me too.  I've seen people who claim to be learned Buddhists with "big titles" (Geshe, Loppon, etc.) be downright cruel in other venues.  At a certain point, some anger/attitude might be understandable, but in a public venue ( i.e. not one-to-one teachings between teacher/student) it's too rough for me to cope with.  The only way I "deal with it" is to leave the site.
              I can speak for myself in that it's difficult to realize that much of my reacting to them was self-cherishment, but I realized a LOT of it was upset on behalf of the others who couldn't sort it out like I was learning to do.  I expect (perhaps incorrectly) better behavior from "senior practitioners" and am sorely dissapointed when I see the opposite.
              I suppose the problem is that the paucity of kindness and consideration in society keeps getting worse, and more and more people get "used to" being less and less kind, that it's harder to pull out of such behavior.  At the same time people are also more and more "sensitive" toward their own self-cherishment and any perceived attack on that self causes huge amts of friction.  I know from personal experience that anything you say, no matter what your intent, can be misinterpreted in a huge way, and you become the demon.
              The only way I've been dealing with it is to limit what I say and where I say it, while constantly taking refuge as best as I can.  I also try make it as apparent as I can, since the internet lacks the ability for true non-verbal communication, to expose my intent, but again... even that is only as effective as the person reading.
              You're not alone friend.  I'm done rambling, and off to take a peek at your blog.
              _()_
               


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