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Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Volitional Formations or Conditioning

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  • Kindnsruls@aol.com
    In a message dated 11/6/2003 11:30:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, Chitakwa@hotmail.com writes: A most informative treatise. I very much enjoyed reading it and
    Message 1 of 13 , Nov 6, 2003
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      In a message dated 11/6/2003 11:30:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, Chitakwa@... writes:
      A most informative treatise.  I very much enjoyed reading it and it
      helps to explain what Thich Nat Hanh (sp?) means by owning one's
      anger.  I read a portion of his book Anger and could not get his
      concept.  As a matter of fact, I put the book down because I felt
      that to read further without understanding the basic concept would be
      somewhat useless.  Maybe not entirely true, but I do have some
      resistance to certain understandings.  I am beginning to realize I am
      angry (happy, depressed, irritable etc.) because I choose to be. 
      Makes it much easier to change the attitude.  Aahh...choice, is a
      lovely thing.  We humans seem to like choice.  Goes along with
      freedom.
      Thank you for this response Karen.
       
      I was kind of thinking maybe I should not be posting here.
      I am no Dharma Teacher possessing the knowledge wisdom to know how to teach another being......I am simply another deluded human being who has now put some time into study, and meditation, and so does understand a bit about the "basics" of Tibetan Tradition, selflessness, and emptiness.
      Simply another migratory being here experiencing the suffering that is samsara.
      One who is motivated to escape it's endless cycle of suffering.
      I make no claim to have any realization....or any great knowledge.....far from it.
      These teachings literally saved my life, and sanity when great karmic suffering ripened in my body, and mind some years ago, and so I do find joy in helping others who want to learn them in whatever small way I can having learned their value myself through deeply personal experience of them.
      I am still very clumsy in my attempts to share them as I am still learning myself.
      I'm not really prepared to respond when others still fully gripped by self cherishing become upset by the Teachings not being what they want to hear.
      I didn't make this stuff up......but thanks to study do understand it is human nature on the gross level to want to hold the messenger responsible. 
      We tend to believe that all we need do is find fault with the messenger to negate the content of the message, and in so doing can give ourselves good reason to ignore what it is we don't want to hear.
       
      Tibetan Tradition......all Buddhism is first, and foremost an inner science of the mind.
       
      The idea is never to repress, or deny our humanness.
      Our humanness is the very vehicle which we can use to reach liberation from our suffering.
      However if we continue to blindly "think," "react", and "act out" of our humanness without comprehension of exactly what the human mind is, what it does, and how it functions how can we use this precious human mind as a tool to reach liberation from our suffering?
      It is both our prison, and our path to freedom.
      We have to be curious about what is going on in there!  :D
      We don't suppress thoughts/emotions.........rather we investigate.
      Who is thinking?
      Who is feeling?
      WHY and to what end?
      What is a thought....an emotion?
      Where do they arise from?
      How do they recede?
      Where do they go?
      Who/what is experiencing them?
      Who/what is observing this experiencing?
       
      And most importantly what are their qualifications to be driving the vehicle in the first place??????
       
      Who/where/what is this "I" that we hold to be so important that we give over control to it?
      Blindly accept all it teaches, and follow without question!
      "I" think this....."I" feel that......therefore it is so!
      "I" don't think this..."I" don't feel that....therefore it is untrue/worthless!
      Here we are questioning the logic of great masters who spent lifetimes in this inner research because "I" don't like what is being said.....but still here we are completely willing to listen to "I" over all else without even investigating it's own credibility!
      Totally illogical.
       
      We must question everything we are taught......but first we must also question who/what it is that is doing the questioning before blindly accepting it's conclusions on the profundity, or lack thereof contained in the Teachings.
       
      Can we think of any other circumstance in which we would so blindly, and completely accept, believe, and follow directives issued without having a good look at source/credentials?
       
      We must throughly investigate this "I" through study, and meditative practice before we can proceed.
       
      May All Beings Be Happy.

              Joyce
    • Oelund Fairking
      Again, I will contend that it can have value as a conventional calayst for altuistic action. I can draw from my own life experience. It was anger over the
      Message 2 of 13 , Nov 6, 2003
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        Again, I will contend that it can have value as a conventional
        calayst for altuistic action. I can draw from my own life experience.
        It was anger over the injustice of prejudice and poverty that
        motivated me to drop out of college and start working in the inner
        city slums in the seventies, where with the help of Franciscan monks
        we started free clinics, food and clothing banks, organize volonteers
        to help the elderly and handicapped in their daily living, to
        organize farm workers into unions. It was anger over the injustice of
        prejudice and poverty that gave me the determination to continue to
        pound on doors of offices in capital buildings until I was given a
        hearing of my concerns, and to persevere in court battles over the
        mere right to feed the hungry. Anger caused me to examine my affinity
        with and within the commonality of human suffering, and recognizing
        the human family as an extention of myself, wanted to do what I could
        to alleviate that suffering. That anger was the springboard into
        compassion, the driving force into altuism.

        Again, if you adhere to the Buddhist contention of non-inherency of
        being, then all meaning is derived in context, and all things can be
        used to either advance or inhibit enlighted wisdom and means,
        including human emotion. If one studies the mandala buddhas the
        purpose is not the elimination of these emotions but the purification
        and the transformational use into enlightened and compassionate
        activity. And again, none of this has meaning whatsoever out of the
        conventional. Yes, anger can cause one to be a serial killer but can
        as easily create defenders of social justice. Love can be sick,
        clingly, smothering and the cause of sickness or it can be open and
        universal and the cause of healing. Everything, including human
        emotion, is the useful tool of the wise. Finally, if our goal is some
        dispassionate equipoise, what engages us to act compassionately? Why
        do buddhasatvas forgo entering into nirvana until all sentient beings
        are enlightened?

        Drudche











        --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, Diana <monkette1@y...> wrote:
        > Drudche posted:
        >
        > "Anger or wrath also has no inherent negativity, that
        > its presentation is also very much defined by context,
        > and if used in wisely is also a catalyst for further
        > liberation."
        >
        > Drudche, please explain further. What you are saying
        > makes no sense to me from a Buddhist perspective.
        > How do you define anger?
        > How do you use anger wisely?
        > How do you act with compassion if what is in your
        > heart is anger?
        > How is anger justified when it is nothing other than
        > being caught up in painful afflicting emotions that
        > separate you from everything and everyone?
        > Anger can be a catalyst for liberation only through
        > the intimate recognition of it within our own minds,
        > and thus comes an understanding of the great suffering
        > anger brings to all sentient beings.
        >
        > Drudche also posted:
        >
        > "The dharma has no value or evidence except in the
        > altuism it creates in terms of our conventional
        > relationships."
        >
        > The dharma's value is in mind transformation. When
        > that is accomplished, all your activities will be to
        > end suffering and bring happiness to all sentient
        > beings. Conventional relationships are only
        > appearances.
        >
        > Peace in the dharma,
        > Diana
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > __________________________________
        > Do you Yahoo!?
        > Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
        > http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
      • Diana
        HEALING HATRED By His Holiness the Dalai Lama The destructive effects of hatred are very visible, very obvious and immediate. For example, when a strong or
        Message 3 of 13 , Nov 7, 2003
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          HEALING HATRED
          By His Holiness the Dalai Lama


          "The destructive effects of hatred are very
          visible, very obvious and immediate. For example, when
          a strong or forceful thought of hatred arises, at that
          very instant it overwhelms one totally and destroys
          one's peace and presence of mind. When that hateful
          thought is harboured inside, it makes one feel tense
          and uptight, and can cause loss of appetite, leading
          to loss of sleep, and so forth.
          If we examine how anger or hateful thoughts arise
          in us, we will find that, generally speaking, they
          arise when we feel hurt, when we feel that we have
          been unfairly treated by someone against our
          expectations. If in that instant we examine carefully
          the way anger arises, there is a sense that it comes
          as a protector, comes as a friend that would help our
          battle or in taking revenge against the person who has
          inflicted harm on us. So the anger or hateful thought
          that arises appears to come as a shield or a
          protector. But in reality that is an illusion. It is a
          very delusory state of mind.
          Chandrakirti states in Entry into the Middle Way
          that there might be some justification for responding
          to force with force if revenge would help one in any
          way, or prevent or reduce the harm which has already
          been inflicted. But that is not the case because if
          the harm, the physical injury or whatever, has been
          inflicted, it has already taken place. So taking
          revenge will not in any way reduce or prevent that
          harm or injury because it has already happened.
          On the contrary, if one reacts to a situation in a
          negative way instead of in a tolerant way, not only is
          there no immediate benefit, but also a negative
          attitude and feeling is created which is the seed of
          one's future downfall. From the Buddhist point of
          view, the consequence of taking revenge has to be
          faced by the individual alone in his or he future
          life. So not only is there no immediate benefit, it is
          harmful in the long run for the individual.
          However, if one has been treated very unfairly and
          if the situation is left unaddressed, it may have
          extremely negative consequences for the perpetrator of
          the crime. Such a situation calls for a strong
          counteraction. Under such circumstances, it is
          possible that one can, out of compassion for the
          perpetrator of the crime and without generating anger
          or hatred, actually take a strong stand and take
          strong countermeasures. In fact, one of the precepts
          of the Bodhisattva vows is to take strong
          countermeasures when the situation calls for it. If a
          Bodhisattva doesn't take strong countermeasures when
          the situation requires, then that constitutes an
          infraction of one of the vows.
          In addition, as the Entry into the Middle Way
          points out, not only does the generation of hateful
          thoughts lead to undesirable forms of existence in
          future lives, but also, at the moment that strong
          feelings of anger arise, no matter how hard one tries
          to adopt a dignified pose, one's face looks rather
          ugly. There is an unpleasant expression, and the
          vibration that the person sends is very hostile.
          People can sense it, and it is almost as if one can
          feel steam coming out of that person's body. Indeed
          not only are human beings capable of sensing it, but
          pets and other animals also try to avoid that person
          at that instant.
          If we examine how anger or hateful thoughts arise
          in us, we will find that, generally speaking, they
          arise when we feel hurt, when we feel that we have
          been unfairly treated by someone against our
          expectations.
          These are the immediate consequences of hatred. It
          brings about a very ugly, unpleasant physical
          transformation of the individual. In addition, when
          such intense anger and hatred arise, it makes the best
          part of our brain, which is the ability to judge
          between right and wrong and assess long-term and
          short-term consequences, become totally inoperable. It
          can no longer function. It is almost as if the person
          had become crazy. These are the negative effects of
          generating anger and hatred. When we think about these
          negative and destructive effects of anger and hatred,
          we realise that it is necessary to distance ourselves
          from such emotional explosions. Insofar as the
          destructive effects of anger and hateful thoughts are
          concerned, one cannot get protection from wealth; even
          if one is a millionaire, one is subject to these
          destructive effects of anger and hatred. Nor can
          education guarantee that one will be protected from
          these effects. Similarly, the law cannot guarantee
          protection. Even nuclear weapons, no matter how
          sophisticated the defence system may be, cannot give
          one protection or defend one from these effects. The
          only factor that can give refuge or protection from
          the destructive effects of anger and hatred is the
          practice of tolerance and patience."



          --- Oelund Fairking <Chitakwa@...> wrote:
          > Again, I will contend that it can have value as a
          > conventional
          > calayst for altuistic action. I can draw from my own
          > life experience.
          > It was anger over the injustice of prejudice and
          > poverty that
          > motivated me to drop out of college and start
          > working in the inner
          > city slums in the seventies, where with the help of
          > Franciscan monks
          > we started free clinics, food and clothing banks,
          > organize volonteers
          > to help the elderly and handicapped in their daily
          > living, to
          > organize farm workers into unions. It was anger over
          > the injustice of
          > prejudice and poverty that gave me the determination
          > to continue to
          > pound on doors of offices in capital buildings until
          > I was given a
          > hearing of my concerns, and to persevere in court
          > battles over the
          > mere right to feed the hungry. Anger caused me to
          > examine my affinity
          > with and within the commonality of human suffering,
          > and recognizing
          > the human family as an extention of myself, wanted
          > to do what I could
          > to alleviate that suffering. That anger was the
          > springboard into
          > compassion, the driving force into altuism.
          >
          > Again, if you adhere to the Buddhist contention of
          > non-inherency of
          > being, then all meaning is derived in context, and
          > all things can be
          > used to either advance or inhibit enlighted wisdom
          > and means,
          > including human emotion. If one studies the mandala
          > buddhas the
          > purpose is not the elimination of these emotions but
          > the purification
          > and the transformational use into enlightened and
          > compassionate
          > activity. And again, none of this has meaning
          > whatsoever out of the
          > conventional. Yes, anger can cause one to be a
          > serial killer but can
          > as easily create defenders of social justice. Love
          > can be sick,
          > clingly, smothering and the cause of sickness or it
          > can be open and
          > universal and the cause of healing. Everything,
          > including human
          > emotion, is the useful tool of the wise. Finally, if
          > our goal is some
          > dispassionate equipoise, what engages us to act
          > compassionately? Why
          > do buddhasatvas forgo entering into nirvana until
          > all sentient beings
          > are enlightened?
          >
          > Drudche
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, Diana
          > <monkette1@y...> wrote:
          > > Drudche posted:
          > >
          > > "Anger or wrath also has no inherent negativity,
          > that
          > > its presentation is also very much defined by
          > context,
          > > and if used in wisely is also a catalyst for
          > further
          > > liberation."
          > >
          > > Drudche, please explain further. What you are
          > saying
          > > makes no sense to me from a Buddhist perspective.
          >
          > > How do you define anger?
          > > How do you use anger wisely?
          > > How do you act with compassion if what is in your
          > > heart is anger?
          > > How is anger justified when it is nothing other
          > than
          > > being caught up in painful afflicting emotions
          > that
          > > separate you from everything and everyone?
          > > Anger can be a catalyst for liberation only
          > through
          > > the intimate recognition of it within our own
          > minds,
          > > and thus comes an understanding of the great
          > suffering
          > > anger brings to all sentient beings.
          > >
          > > Drudche also posted:
          > >
          > > "The dharma has no value or evidence except in the
          > > altuism it creates in terms of our conventional
          > > relationships."
          > >
          > > The dharma's value is in mind transformation.
          > When
          > > that is accomplished, all your activities will be
          > to
          > > end suffering and bring happiness to all sentient
          > > beings. Conventional relationships are only
          > > appearances.
          > >
          > > Peace in the dharma,
          > > Diana
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > __________________________________
          > > Do you Yahoo!?
          > > Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail
          > AddressGuard
          > > http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
          >
          >


          __________________________________
          Do you Yahoo!?
          Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
          http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
        • Oelund Fairking
          Again, I don t argue the veracity. What is happening is we are looking at the same diamond, just different aspects. I cited wrathful dieties as an analogous
          Message 4 of 13 , Nov 7, 2003
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            Again, I don't argue the veracity. What is happening is we are
            looking at the same diamond, just different aspects. I cited wrathful
            dieties as an analogous illustration of my point, that they represent
            the purified aspects, or the enlightenend energy of such things as
            anger. I will do a little more research to see if I cannot find a
            comprehensive explaination of this. Hopefully through a net searach I
            can find a monastery or two, to see if they can help me convey this
            understanding. I have failed to comprehensively eludate my point, for
            which I apologize. For now this small description, hopefully from
            which you might extrapolate the concept I am addressing:

            The wrathful deities ... enact the enourmous power of cosmic rage, a
            primal anger without hatred, which cuts through doubts... confusions,
            and all the turbulence of this increasingly dark age. Their mouths
            are open, fangs bared in a primordial scream so ferocious it is like
            an electric shock. But in the huge round orbs of their eyes there is
            stillness, the small quiet space of compassion. They are black and
            wear bone ornaments and tiger or leopard skins, treading on the
            corpse of ego. In their hands they hold cutting objects - the drigu
            or curved knife, the phurba, or three sided dagger, and the katvanga
            or trident with impaled skulls. Because we have more negative than
            positive energy, these wrathful forms are a truer representation of
            the Buddha for these times.


            --Norma Levine, Blessing Power of the Buddhas













            --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, Diana <monkette1@y...> wrote:
            > HEALING HATRED
            > By His Holiness the Dalai Lama
            >
            >
            > "The destructive effects of hatred are very
            > visible, very obvious and immediate. For example, when
            > a strong or forceful thought of hatred arises, at that
            > very instant it overwhelms one totally and destroys
            > one's peace and presence of mind. When that hateful
            > thought is harboured inside, it makes one feel tense
            > and uptight, and can cause loss of appetite, leading
            > to loss of sleep, and so forth.
            > If we examine how anger or hateful thoughts arise
            > in us, we will find that, generally speaking, they
            > arise when we feel hurt, when we feel that we have
            > been unfairly treated by someone against our
            > expectations. If in that instant we examine carefully
            > the way anger arises, there is a sense that it comes
            > as a protector, comes as a friend that would help our
            > battle or in taking revenge against the person who has
            > inflicted harm on us. So the anger or hateful thought
            > that arises appears to come as a shield or a
            > protector. But in reality that is an illusion. It is a
            > very delusory state of mind.
            > Chandrakirti states in Entry into the Middle Way
            > that there might be some justification for responding
            > to force with force if revenge would help one in any
            > way, or prevent or reduce the harm which has already
            > been inflicted. But that is not the case because if
            > the harm, the physical injury or whatever, has been
            > inflicted, it has already taken place. So taking
            > revenge will not in any way reduce or prevent that
            > harm or injury because it has already happened.
            > On the contrary, if one reacts to a situation in a
            > negative way instead of in a tolerant way, not only is
            > there no immediate benefit, but also a negative
            > attitude and feeling is created which is the seed of
            > one's future downfall. From the Buddhist point of
            > view, the consequence of taking revenge has to be
            > faced by the individual alone in his or he future
            > life. So not only is there no immediate benefit, it is
            > harmful in the long run for the individual.
            > However, if one has been treated very unfairly and
            > if the situation is left unaddressed, it may have
            > extremely negative consequences for the perpetrator of
            > the crime. Such a situation calls for a strong
            > counteraction. Under such circumstances, it is
            > possible that one can, out of compassion for the
            > perpetrator of the crime and without generating anger
            > or hatred, actually take a strong stand and take
            > strong countermeasures. In fact, one of the precepts
            > of the Bodhisattva vows is to take strong
            > countermeasures when the situation calls for it. If a
            > Bodhisattva doesn't take strong countermeasures when
            > the situation requires, then that constitutes an
            > infraction of one of the vows.
            > In addition, as the Entry into the Middle Way
            > points out, not only does the generation of hateful
            > thoughts lead to undesirable forms of existence in
            > future lives, but also, at the moment that strong
            > feelings of anger arise, no matter how hard one tries
            > to adopt a dignified pose, one's face looks rather
            > ugly. There is an unpleasant expression, and the
            > vibration that the person sends is very hostile.
            > People can sense it, and it is almost as if one can
            > feel steam coming out of that person's body. Indeed
            > not only are human beings capable of sensing it, but
            > pets and other animals also try to avoid that person
            > at that instant.
            > If we examine how anger or hateful thoughts arise
            > in us, we will find that, generally speaking, they
            > arise when we feel hurt, when we feel that we have
            > been unfairly treated by someone against our
            > expectations.
            > These are the immediate consequences of hatred. It
            > brings about a very ugly, unpleasant physical
            > transformation of the individual. In addition, when
            > such intense anger and hatred arise, it makes the best
            > part of our brain, which is the ability to judge
            > between right and wrong and assess long-term and
            > short-term consequences, become totally inoperable. It
            > can no longer function. It is almost as if the person
            > had become crazy. These are the negative effects of
            > generating anger and hatred. When we think about these
            > negative and destructive effects of anger and hatred,
            > we realise that it is necessary to distance ourselves
            > from such emotional explosions. Insofar as the
            > destructive effects of anger and hateful thoughts are
            > concerned, one cannot get protection from wealth; even
            > if one is a millionaire, one is subject to these
            > destructive effects of anger and hatred. Nor can
            > education guarantee that one will be protected from
            > these effects. Similarly, the law cannot guarantee
            > protection. Even nuclear weapons, no matter how
            > sophisticated the defence system may be, cannot give
            > one protection or defend one from these effects. The
            > only factor that can give refuge or protection from
            > the destructive effects of anger and hatred is the
            > practice of tolerance and patience."
            >
            >
            >
            > --- Oelund Fairking <Chitakwa@h...> wrote:
            > > Again, I will contend that it can have value as a
            > > conventional
            > > calayst for altuistic action. I can draw from my own
            > > life experience.
            > > It was anger over the injustice of prejudice and
            > > poverty that
            > > motivated me to drop out of college and start
            > > working in the inner
            > > city slums in the seventies, where with the help of
            > > Franciscan monks
            > > we started free clinics, food and clothing banks,
            > > organize volonteers
            > > to help the elderly and handicapped in their daily
            > > living, to
            > > organize farm workers into unions. It was anger over
            > > the injustice of
            > > prejudice and poverty that gave me the determination
            > > to continue to
            > > pound on doors of offices in capital buildings until
            > > I was given a
            > > hearing of my concerns, and to persevere in court
            > > battles over the
            > > mere right to feed the hungry. Anger caused me to
            > > examine my affinity
            > > with and within the commonality of human suffering,
            > > and recognizing
            > > the human family as an extention of myself, wanted
            > > to do what I could
            > > to alleviate that suffering. That anger was the
            > > springboard into
            > > compassion, the driving force into altuism.
            > >
            > > Again, if you adhere to the Buddhist contention of
            > > non-inherency of
            > > being, then all meaning is derived in context, and
            > > all things can be
            > > used to either advance or inhibit enlighted wisdom
            > > and means,
            > > including human emotion. If one studies the mandala
            > > buddhas the
            > > purpose is not the elimination of these emotions but
            > > the purification
            > > and the transformational use into enlightened and
            > > compassionate
            > > activity. And again, none of this has meaning
            > > whatsoever out of the
            > > conventional. Yes, anger can cause one to be a
            > > serial killer but can
            > > as easily create defenders of social justice. Love
            > > can be sick,
            > > clingly, smothering and the cause of sickness or it
            > > can be open and
            > > universal and the cause of healing. Everything,
            > > including human
            > > emotion, is the useful tool of the wise. Finally, if
            > > our goal is some
            > > dispassionate equipoise, what engages us to act
            > > compassionately? Why
            > > do buddhasatvas forgo entering into nirvana until
            > > all sentient beings
            > > are enlightened?
            > >
            > > Drudche
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, Diana
            > > <monkette1@y...> wrote:
            > > > Drudche posted:
            > > >
            > > > "Anger or wrath also has no inherent negativity,
            > > that
            > > > its presentation is also very much defined by
            > > context,
            > > > and if used in wisely is also a catalyst for
            > > further
            > > > liberation."
            > > >
            > > > Drudche, please explain further. What you are
            > > saying
            > > > makes no sense to me from a Buddhist perspective.
            > >
            > > > How do you define anger?
            > > > How do you use anger wisely?
            > > > How do you act with compassion if what is in your
            > > > heart is anger?
            > > > How is anger justified when it is nothing other
            > > than
            > > > being caught up in painful afflicting emotions
            > > that
            > > > separate you from everything and everyone?
            > > > Anger can be a catalyst for liberation only
            > > through
            > > > the intimate recognition of it within our own
            > > minds,
            > > > and thus comes an understanding of the great
            > > suffering
            > > > anger brings to all sentient beings.
            > > >
            > > > Drudche also posted:
            > > >
            > > > "The dharma has no value or evidence except in the
            > > > altuism it creates in terms of our conventional
            > > > relationships."
            > > >
            > > > The dharma's value is in mind transformation.
            > > When
            > > > that is accomplished, all your activities will be
            > > to
            > > > end suffering and bring happiness to all sentient
            > > > beings. Conventional relationships are only
            > > > appearances.
            > > >
            > > > Peace in the dharma,
            > > > Diana
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > __________________________________
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          • Kindnsruls@aol.com
            Will be interesting to hear what you find out Dru. I ve just read Crazy Wisdom by Chogyam Trungpa......I loved it......it speaks about the sudden path as
            Message 5 of 13 , Nov 7, 2003
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              Will be interesting to hear what you find out Dru.
               
              I've just read Crazy Wisdom by Chogyam Trungpa......I loved it......it speaks about the sudden path as opposed to the gradual path, and sounds a lot like what you are saying.
              Padmasambhava lived this path......but was born already enlightened....and in my own limited understanding only beings who have severed attachment to the poisons at the root can wield the raw energy of things like anger without karmic repercussion.
              Beings already free of cyclic existence.
              In the book though Trungpa states that one has to have a "push" from a qualified Teacher already on this path....and does seem to be encouraging his audience to go this way....and when asked by a student if within the teaching given if he was trying to "push" them....he responded "I think so."
               
              Crazy Wisdom kind of picks up where Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism leaves off.....saying that once you can "cut through" what you are left with is Crazy Wisdom.
              It is the difference between the gradual path of removing obscuration to become free, and assuming freedom up front, and "leaping" in.
               
              If my hands were not so damaged I would type some passages here.....I think this book would truly appeal to you.  :D
               
               
              May All Beings Be Happy.

                      Joyce
            • Oelund Fairking
              Bless you, if you were in this room I would sweep you up and give you a twirl in gratitude for your timely interjection, offering the book that perfectly
              Message 6 of 13 , Nov 8, 2003
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                Bless you, if you were in this room I would sweep you up and give you
                a twirl in gratitude for your timely interjection, offering the book
                that perfectly conveys my point! Gosh it has been years since I have
                read it-perhaps since you mention it, it is time for a reread. Of
                all the books I have read, it has predominated in shaping my approach
                to Buddhism. It draws keenly on the fact that every thing and every
                event we experience has the potential to be our path to
                enlightenment, and the only limits of the ways we have to receive or
                give the dharma is the limits we set upon ourselves.

                Found a Zen abbot with whom to hammer out a means to explain what I
                am intending to convey. We looked at the difference in referring to
                it as the "use of anger" as opposed to "response to anger". Clearly
                how I explained this conveys the idea of operating out of the base of
                anger, which I construe from Monkette's considered response. This is
                not correct. I am intending the latter. As to first, I cannot say
                that I am at the point in spiritual development that I am capable of
                handling that, so for the sake of this discussion won't consider it.
                What I am saying that even something such as anger can be the initial
                step, the ignition of a process that culminates in awakening and
                liberation, conventionally and ultimately. If one can suddenly find
                enlightment while having intercourse with a prostitute, which is
                alleged to have happened, one can pretty much conclude the means to
                find truth is the desire to see it where you look.

                As to my contention, if you are saying that the only response to
                anger is concentrate on the means to not feel it, I simply disagree.
                It has to do with how I interpret "right integration". I think of
                existence as a dharma-play, each life a parable describing what
                emptiness looks like when it wears flesh and bone. To me, right
                integration consists of seeking answers that uphold the dharma
                couched in the terms of my own story, which played out by finding
                balanced resolutions to the personal and interpersonal conflicts that
                generate anger, envy, fear and obsession in my life. In terms of my
                story therefore it is important to listen to what my anger is saying
                and to look at what my anger is pointing to. You cannot do this if
                your only response to your anger is to drown it in a sea of emptiness.

                Anyway, that, whether I am right or I am wrong, sums it up. If my
                explanation is still clear as mud, please pick up a copy of "Crazy
                Wisdom" and give it a read. I would suggest doing so anyway as an
                antidote to monolithic dogmatism.

                Drudche










                --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, Kindnsruls@a... wrote:
                > Will be interesting to hear what you find out Dru.
                >
                > I've just read Crazy Wisdom by Chogyam Trungpa......I loved
                it......it speaks
                > about the sudden path as opposed to the gradual path, and sounds a
                lot like
                > what you are saying.
                > Padmasambhava lived this path......but was born already
                enlightened....and in
                > my own limited understanding only beings who have severed
                attachment to the
                > poisons at the root can wield the raw energy of things like anger
                without
                > karmic repercussion.
                > Beings already free of cyclic existence.
                > In the book though Trungpa states that one has to have a "push"
                from a
                > qualified Teacher already on this path....and does seem to be
                encouraging his
                > audience to go this way....and when asked by a student if within
                the teaching given
                > if he was trying to "push" them....he responded "I think so."
                >
                > Crazy Wisdom kind of picks up where Cutting Through Spiritual
                Materialism
                > leaves off.....saying that once you can "cut through" what you are
                left with is
                > Crazy Wisdom.
                > It is the difference between the gradual path of removing
                obscuration to
                > become free, and assuming freedom up front, and "leaping" in.
                >
                > If my hands were not so damaged I would type some passages
                here.....I think
                > this book would truly appeal to you. :D
                >
                >
                > May All Beings Be Happy.
                >
                > Joyce
              • Karen
                While some anger can be good and used to fuel social change, et al, some anger is nothing more than the ego fighting to be heard on its own terms. I am sure I
                Message 7 of 13 , Nov 9, 2003
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                  While some anger can be good and used to fuel social change, et al, some anger is nothing more than the ego fighting to be heard on its own terms.  I am sure I am not expaining this well.  I have been an extremely angry person for a variety of reasons which I will not bore you with, but I have found by using mindfulness and meditation, I have been able to transform useless anger into positive calm.  I do not deny the anger, I merely analyze it.  If I find that it is useless and does not serve me or the greater good, then I let it go mostly through self talk.  There are rare instances where I feel it does some good to be a little angry, but I do not find that being angry on a regular basis is productive in the least.  Although some of you may be able to benefit from the correct use of anger, I feel I have used my anger quota for this incarnation, so I do tend to avoid being angry.  This does not mean I avoid feeling anger, just in displaying the response.  I do on occasion get angry, but I hope this has lessened over the last few months.  OK, maybe a little more than on occasion, it has after all become a bit of a habit.  One I would like to break.
                   
                  Namaste'
                  Karen


                  "Existence needs you. Without you something will be missing in existence and nobody can replace it."  Osho


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                • Oelund Fairking
                  I m pretty much in agreement with where you are coming from. This last year I had a major bout with anger, and to compound it would get angry at myself for
                  Message 8 of 13 , Nov 10, 2003
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                    I'm pretty much in agreement with where you are coming from. This
                    last year I had a major bout with anger, and to compound it would get
                    angry at myself for being angry about things that were so far out of
                    my realm to do anything about! Yes, sometimes the best thing to do
                    with your anger is to use it in meditation on emptiness and just let
                    it go!I also engaged in quite a bit of self-exdamination, to find
                    what my anger was saying and the dynamics of why anger became my
                    defense mechanism, and now finding myself more able to reliquish it.
                    AND, I discovered there was a bio-pysical component-food allergies!
                    Amazing what such a thing can do to your horomonal systems affect you
                    behavior and predisposing one to anger and depressive responses.

                    Drudche





                    --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, Karen <ladyfire5@y...> wrote:
                    > While some anger can be good and used to fuel social change, et al,
                    some anger is nothing more than the ego fighting to be heard on its
                    own terms. I am sure I am not expaining this well. I have been an
                    extremely angry person for a variety of reasons which I will not bore
                    you with, but I have found by using mindfulness and meditation, I
                    have been able to transform useless anger into positive calm. I do
                    not deny the anger, I merely analyze it. If I find that it is
                    useless and does not serve me or the greater good, then I let it go
                    mostly through self talk. There are rare instances where I feel it
                    does some good to be a little angry, but I do not find that being
                    angry on a regular basis is productive in the least. Although some
                    of you may be able to benefit from the correct use of anger, I feel I
                    have used my anger quota for this incarnation, so I do tend to avoid
                    being angry. This does not mean I avoid feeling anger, just in
                    displaying the response. I do on occasion get angry,
                    > but I hope this has lessened over the last few months. OK, maybe
                    a little more than on occasion, it has after all become a bit of a
                    habit. One I would like to break.
                    >
                    > Namaste'
                    > Karen
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > "Existence needs you. Without you something will be missing in
                    existence and nobody can replace it." Osho
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
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                    > Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
                  • Kindnsruls@aol.com
                    In a message dated 11/9/2003 9:25:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, ladyfire5@yahoo.com writes: Although some of you may be able to benefit from the correct use of
                    Message 9 of 13 , Nov 10, 2003
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                      In a message dated 11/9/2003 9:25:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, ladyfire5@... writes:
                       Although some of you may be able to benefit from the correct use of anger, I feel I have used my anger quota for this incarnation,
                      LOL Karen.......I like that phrase.
                       
                      Again......I think we have all agreed that anger is always negative.
                      It is said that one moment of anger can wipe out a lifetime of merit.....so since we all still feel anger this is why, at the end of a session we always dedicate whatever merit our practice, and prayers may have caused to all sentient beings, and the arising of bodhichitta.
                      It was explained to me this way.......if we have our little cup of merit....then we may become angry, and it will dry up.....however if we take that cup, and pour it into a great ocean....well that great ocean will never dry up, and our merit will never be lost.
                       
                       
                      May All Beings Be Happy.

                              Joyce
                    • Kindnsruls@aol.com
                      In a message dated 11/10/2003 11:50:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, Chitakwa@hotmail.com writes: AND, I discovered there was a bio-pysical component-food
                      Message 10 of 13 , Nov 10, 2003
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                        In a message dated 11/10/2003 11:50:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, Chitakwa@... writes:
                        AND, I discovered there was a bio-pysical component-food allergies!
                        Amazing what such a thing can do to your horomonal systems affect you
                        behavior and predisposing one to anger and depressive responses.

                        Drudche
                        I hear you Dru.
                        I often find myself in the grip of kleshas without warning only to realize the events were caused by medications.
                        The mind, and body are one system.....what affects one can often manifest in the other as well.
                        Glad you were able to discover these triggers for yourself, and ease your experiencing. :D
                        I have dropped use of many medications the "witch doctors" feel I should take because they cause so much disruption in my mind, and/or concentration that I cannot practice.
                        I am at the moment in the grip of the kleshas.....and suspect a new med as the culprit.
                        Whatever.........gotta' work with them/apply antidotes, wait/allow their disapation no matter the cause. 
                        It's all there to work with, and benefit from. :D
                         
                         
                        May All Beings Be Happy.

                                Joyce
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