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  • Kraig Mottar
    How did Buddhism avoid human distortion? Tell me more about Christ and Buddha meeting? Christ is mentioned in the Bhagavadgita (sp?). Though, what Buddha
    Message 1 of 30 , Mar 2, 2005
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      How did Buddhism avoid human distortion?

      Tell me more about Christ and Buddha meeting? Christ is mentioned in
      the Bhagavadgita (sp?). Though, what Buddha around at that time?

      A Buddhist teacher introduced me to the Gospel of Thomas. There are
      other gospels and books of both testaments that were not "canonized.
      I'm forces to ask, why not? The Gospel of Thomas is one such gospel.
      You won't find it if many churches, if any.

      Peace,
      Kraig

      --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...> wrote:
      >
      > Surely, I can see how it would be hard to understand why Christians
      > would call themselves Buddhists. Honestly, when I put myself in your
      > shoes, I think it could be interpreted in many ways. It seems to me
      > that there can sometimes be a reluctance at times, to accept "one or
      > the other", either from convenience, laziness, or a selfish
      > convenience. Some will believe that Buddha started something that
      > Christ finished and that they both bring us together, and some will
      > slowly let go of Christian beliefs, take the one seat and work
      > diligently toward enlightenment. That is all very sweet, honestly.
      >
      > In my mind, one does not negate the other. There is a very well liked
      > Buddhist Monk that had commented on how he believed that Jesus and
      > Buddha have met, are meeting now and will meet forever, also that they
      > were brothers and they were sisters. As well, in my mind I do see them
      > lean toward another in so many comparisons.
      >
      > Now correct me if I'm wrong [I'm back from a very long break], but do
      > not Buddhists believe in somewhat of a higher power? Some energy that
      > has a name? When I was purely Christian, God looked like Charlton
      > Hestin in The Ten Commandments. Now its definition blends with an
      > energy some may see as Nirvana, or eternal laws.
      >
      > If you find a belief in any "kind of God" difficult, that "kind" may
      > be percieved in many angles, many real points of view.
      >
      > It seems like a benefit of Buddhism is to know that, although there
      > are some divisions in the religion, it appears that most everything as
      > far as historical information is still true and accounted for.
      > Cristianity, on the other hand has been horribly distorted,
      > fragmented, misinterpreted, over-inflated, hidden, overglorified in
      > cinema and found guilty of many man-made sufferings in its own name.
      >
      > Many Christians believe that there are some serious pockets, or holes
      > in the informational continuum about Christ. Tne belief is that
      > Buddha fills in those pockets, those holes. Jesus'complete dialog from
      > the entire New Testament is only two hours. There's little or no
      > account for over half of his life. Many believe he traveled to India
      > and found Buddha. I doubt that the vatican would enjoy that idea.
      >
      > To share the thought in my mind and heart, is to say that they dwell
      > together in harmony, perfectly true, each of them, at all times. It is
      > no longer important for me to think or say anything divisive. I fail
      > to see any differences in so many ways. I cast away different
      > perceptions. hope I can keep that attitude.
      >
      > Thank you very much Diane. I'm glad to meet you.
      >
      > -Scott
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "flora_connemara"
      > <peter.brown5@b...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi all, I am finding it difficult to understand where people who are
      > > calling themselves Buddhists are also calling themselves Christians.
      > > Doesn't one negate the other, Buddhists do not believe in a higher
      > > power or 'god' but Christians do? I was drawn to Buddhism because of
      > > the way of life it espouses but also for the lack of a god, I find
      > > belief in a god very difficult to fathom.
      > > from Diane in Australia
    • Ken/
      Hi Kraig, ... Actually, the Buddha didn t want to answer questions on the existance of a creator/God, because he knew it would be misinterpreted. Finally,
      Message 2 of 30 , Mar 3, 2005
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        Hi Kraig,
        i wanted to comment on this specific statement:
        >Buddhism doesn't state theat there is or isn't a God,
        >it makes no comment about it.

        Actually, the Buddha didn't want to answer questions
        on the existance of a creator/God, because he knew it
        would be misinterpreted. Finally, after being pushed
        over and over again, he said that (and i am
        paraphrasing from memory) that he had met many gods
        and asuras and none, including Brahma, would admit to
        having created anything. In the final analisis,
        Buddhism is non-theist, or, it is irrelevant if you
        believe in a creator/God or not.
        Maybe Joyce has the correct statement, by the Buddha,
        available.
        --- Kraig Mottar <kraig.mottar@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > I don't see how you could have a problem with this.
        > I find it
        > difficult to fathom there not being a God. Though,
        > whether or not one
        > believes in God doesn't really matter.
        > You cannot prove God doesn't exist, but you can't
        > prove God does exist
        > either. The connection between Buddhism and
        > Christianity or Christ?
        > They both have an almost identical philosophy,
        > Christ and Buddha, not
        > neccessarilly Christians and Buddhists though. The
        > messages of Christ
        > and Buddha are very compatible and identical.
        > The only difference between Buddhism and
        > Christianity is the mythology.
        >
        > Buddhism doesn't state theat there is or isn't a
        > God, it makes no
        > comment about it.
        >
        > Depending on who you talk to, you don't
        > neccessarilly have to accept
        > Christian mythology to be a Christian, some only
        > accept the teaching,
        > I think I'm the latter. Christ didn't establish the
        > so-called
        > Christian church(es) his followers did, and they
        > were all clueless as
        > the Bible makes clear.
        >
        > Peace,
        > Kraig
        >
        > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com,
        > "flora_connemara"
        > <peter.brown5@b...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi all, I am finding it difficult to understand
        > where people who are
        > > calling themselves Buddhists are also calling
        > themselves Christians.
        > > Doesn't one negate the other, Buddhists do not
        > believe in a higher
        > > power or 'god' but Christians do? I was drawn to
        > Buddhism because of
        > > the way of life it espouses but also for the lack
        > of a god, I find
        > > belief in a god very difficult to fathom.
        > > from Diane in Australia
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > --------------------~-->
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        > disease?
        > Network for Good is THE place to support health
        > awareness efforts!
        >
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        --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        > Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >





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      • Scott
        You and I seem to share the same viewpoints on this and we ve taken some time, dialog and energy into this group. I wonder however, (and this may be paranoia)
        Message 3 of 30 , Mar 3, 2005
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          You and I seem to share the same viewpoints on this and we've taken
          some time, dialog and energy into this group.
          I wonder however, (and this may be paranoia) if it might be best for
          the group if we concentrate more on the topic/theme of this group. I
          am very interested in the book of Thomas and other things we've
          brought up.

          Kraig, would you like me to start a group on that topic? or we could
          utilize this site I have just recently built:

          http://www.geocities.com/kal_el1965

          We could collaborate there.

          I'm just thinking that for the benefit of Buddhism in this forum
          alone, I might be able to concentrate mostly on the Buddhist dialog.

          -Scott



          --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
          <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
          >
          > How did Buddhism avoid human distortion?
          >
          > Tell me more about Christ and Buddha meeting? Christ is mentioned in
          > the Bhagavadgita (sp?). Though, what Buddha around at that time?
          >
          > A Buddhist teacher introduced me to the Gospel of Thomas. There are
          > other gospels and books of both testaments that were not "canonized.
          > I'm forces to ask, why not? The Gospel of Thomas is one such gospel.
          > You won't find it if many churches, if any.
          >
          > Peace,
          > Kraig
          >
          > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Surely, I can see how it would be hard to understand why Christians
          > > would call themselves Buddhists. Honestly, when I put myself in your
          > > shoes, I think it could be interpreted in many ways. It seems to me
          > > that there can sometimes be a reluctance at times, to accept "one or
          > > the other", either from convenience, laziness, or a selfish
          > > convenience. Some will believe that Buddha started something that
          > > Christ finished and that they both bring us together, and some will
          > > slowly let go of Christian beliefs, take the one seat and work
          > > diligently toward enlightenment. That is all very sweet, honestly.
          > >
          > > In my mind, one does not negate the other. There is a very well liked
          > > Buddhist Monk that had commented on how he believed that Jesus and
          > > Buddha have met, are meeting now and will meet forever, also that they
          > > were brothers and they were sisters. As well, in my mind I do see them
          > > lean toward another in so many comparisons.
          > >
          > > Now correct me if I'm wrong [I'm back from a very long break], but do
          > > not Buddhists believe in somewhat of a higher power? Some energy that
          > > has a name? When I was purely Christian, God looked like Charlton
          > > Hestin in The Ten Commandments. Now its definition blends with an
          > > energy some may see as Nirvana, or eternal laws.
          > >
          > > If you find a belief in any "kind of God" difficult, that "kind" may
          > > be percieved in many angles, many real points of view.
          > >
          > > It seems like a benefit of Buddhism is to know that, although there
          > > are some divisions in the religion, it appears that most everything as
          > > far as historical information is still true and accounted for.
          > > Cristianity, on the other hand has been horribly distorted,
          > > fragmented, misinterpreted, over-inflated, hidden, overglorified in
          > > cinema and found guilty of many man-made sufferings in its own name.
          > >
          > > Many Christians believe that there are some serious pockets, or holes
          > > in the informational continuum about Christ. Tne belief is that
          > > Buddha fills in those pockets, those holes. Jesus'complete dialog from
          > > the entire New Testament is only two hours. There's little or no
          > > account for over half of his life. Many believe he traveled to India
          > > and found Buddha. I doubt that the vatican would enjoy that idea.
          > >
          > > To share the thought in my mind and heart, is to say that they dwell
          > > together in harmony, perfectly true, each of them, at all times. It is
          > > no longer important for me to think or say anything divisive. I fail
          > > to see any differences in so many ways. I cast away different
          > > perceptions. hope I can keep that attitude.
          > >
          > > Thank you very much Diane. I'm glad to meet you.
          > >
          > > -Scott
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "flora_connemara"
          > > <peter.brown5@b...> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Hi all, I am finding it difficult to understand where people who
          are
          > > > calling themselves Buddhists are also calling themselves
          Christians.
          > > > Doesn't one negate the other, Buddhists do not believe in a higher
          > > > power or 'god' but Christians do? I was drawn to Buddhism
          because of
          > > > the way of life it espouses but also for the lack of a god, I find
          > > > belief in a god very difficult to fathom.
          > > > from Diane in Australia
        • Shanna
          Hi Diane. In most of the modern world today, the mainstream faith is Christianity. And while Buddhism makes no references to whether or not there is a God or
          Message 4 of 30 , Mar 3, 2005
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            Hi Diane.

            In most of the modern world today, the mainstream faith is
            Christianity. And while Buddhism makes no references to whether or not
            there is a God or that you shouldn't believe in one if you are a
            Buddhist, Buddha was very careful not to touch upon that subject. He
            left it up to his students to decide for themselves, as with every
            teaching, for his students to experience it and judge for themselves
            the merit of his teachings.

            For a westerner new to buddhism, it can be very hard to shake off the
            christian name. Especially for us in america, it seems so taboo to be
            something besides a christian. Atheists, agnostics, wiccans, etc.,
            they all have to be very.. well, i wouldn't say courageous or brave,
            but something along those lines... to stand up and say "i am a ..."
            For me, I don't believe in God, but I do know there's something there,
            call it cosmic law, karmic law, universal truth, whatever, something
            is there. And since my entire new family, the inlaws, are christian,
            some very fundamentalist, it helps me get by right now to say that I
            am a christian. I personally feel that it's all the same anyway. I
            think that men have chosen to label that feeling of "something",
            karmic law, etc, God because men need to know that there is a reason
            for everything, that it isn't just all chaos thrown together. However,
            I couldn't really say that I am a christian or not because I've spent
            a long time calling that "feeling" God, so I've a habit of calling it
            that. And I don't know for sure, and I don't think I'll ever know. I'm
            satisfied either way. If there is a God, may he be merciful, and if
            there isn't a god, then there isn't a god.

            Anyway, that's my opinion. You have a great day.

            Peace go with you all,
            Shanna


            --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "flora_connemara"
            <peter.brown5@b...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi all, I am finding it difficult to understand where people who are
            > calling themselves Buddhists are also calling themselves Christians.
            > Doesn't one negate the other, Buddhists do not believe in a higher
            > power or 'god' but Christians do? I was drawn to Buddhism because of
            > the way of life it espouses but also for the lack of a god, I find
            > belief in a god very difficult to fathom.
            > from Diane in Australia
          • Kraig Mottar
            It is non-theist as opposed to atheist? Non-theists being neutral, and not passionate about whether or not there is a God while atheist maintan, There is no
            Message 5 of 30 , Mar 3, 2005
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              It is non-theist as opposed to atheist? Non-theists being neutral,
              and not passionate about whether or not there is a God while atheist
              maintan, "There is no God or creator damnit! would you get that
              through your thick skull!" That is a quote of what an atheist might
              say and not my actul view.

              Though, it is wise to heed what a non-theist say and does which God
              would highly respect, because a non-theist who is not suicidal is
              dependant on his own ability and skill.

              Peace,
              Kraig

              --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, Ken/ <klegshe@y...> wrote:
              > Hi Kraig,
              > i wanted to comment on this specific statement:
              > >Buddhism doesn't state theat there is or isn't a God,
              > >it makes no comment about it.
              >
              > Actually, the Buddha didn't want to answer questions
              > on the existance of a creator/God, because he knew it
              > would be misinterpreted. Finally, after being pushed
              > over and over again, he said that (and i am
              > paraphrasing from memory) that he had met many gods
              > and asuras and none, including Brahma, would admit to
              > having created anything. In the final analisis,
              > Buddhism is non-theist, or, it is irrelevant if you
              > believe in a creator/God or not.
              > Maybe Joyce has the correct statement, by the Buddha,
              > available.
              > --- Kraig Mottar <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > I don't see how you could have a problem with this.
              > > I find it
              > > difficult to fathom there not being a God. Though,
              > > whether or not one
              > > believes in God doesn't really matter.
              > > You cannot prove God doesn't exist, but you can't
              > > prove God does exist
              > > either. The connection between Buddhism and
              > > Christianity or Christ?
              > > They both have an almost identical philosophy,
              > > Christ and Buddha, not
              > > neccessarilly Christians and Buddhists though. The
              > > messages of Christ
              > > and Buddha are very compatible and identical.
              > > The only difference between Buddhism and
              > > Christianity is the mythology.
              > >
              > > Buddhism doesn't state theat there is or isn't a
              > > God, it makes no
              > > comment about it.
              > >
              > > Depending on who you talk to, you don't
              > > neccessarilly have to accept
              > > Christian mythology to be a Christian, some only
              > > accept the teaching,
              > > I think I'm the latter. Christ didn't establish the
              > > so-called
              > > Christian church(es) his followers did, and they
              > > were all clueless as
              > > the Bible makes clear.
              > >
              > > Peace,
              > > Kraig
              > >
              > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com,
              > > "flora_connemara"
              > > <peter.brown5@b...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hi all, I am finding it difficult to understand
              > > where people who are
              > > > calling themselves Buddhists are also calling
              > > themselves Christians.
              > > > Doesn't one negate the other, Buddhists do not
              > > believe in a higher
              > > > power or 'god' but Christians do? I was drawn to
              > > Buddhism because of
              > > > the way of life it espouses but also for the lack
              > > of a god, I find
              > > > belief in a god very difficult to fathom.
              > > > from Diane in Australia
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              > > --------------------~-->
              > > Has someone you know been affected by illness or
              > > disease?
              > > Network for Good is THE place to support health
              > > awareness efforts!
              > >
              > http://us.click.yahoo.com/UwRTUD/UOnJAA/i1hLAA/GkEylB/TM
              > >
              > --------------------------------------------------------------------
              ~->
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > > Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > __________________________________
              > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
              > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
              > http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
            • Kraig Mottar
              I m ok with that. I have no leadership skills to start or maintain such a group, I m just a seeker, and seekers are clueless. Though, I don t see that this
              Message 6 of 30 , Mar 3, 2005
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                I'm ok with that. I have no leadership skills to start or maintain
                such a group, I'm just a seeker, and seekers are clueless.
                Though, I don't see that this dicussion is being disruptive here,
                people have the option of not participating in it if they don't want
                to.

                I'll go to that site. My father is very Christian, and sees Buddhism
                as a phiosophy not a religion and has much respect of it, me, I don't
                see it as a philosophy or a religion, I see it as a practice.

                Peace,
                Kraig

                --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...> wrote:
                >
                > You and I seem to share the same viewpoints on this and we've taken
                > some time, dialog and energy into this group.
                > I wonder however, (and this may be paranoia) if it might be best for
                > the group if we concentrate more on the topic/theme of this group. I
                > am very interested in the book of Thomas and other things we've
                > brought up.
                >
                > Kraig, would you like me to start a group on that topic? or we could
                > utilize this site I have just recently built:
                >
                > http://www.geocities.com/kal_el1965
                >
                > We could collaborate there.
                >
                > I'm just thinking that for the benefit of Buddhism in this forum
                > alone, I might be able to concentrate mostly on the Buddhist
                dialog.
                >
                > -Scott
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                > >
                > > How did Buddhism avoid human distortion?
                > >
                > > Tell me more about Christ and Buddha meeting? Christ is mentioned
                in
                > > the Bhagavadgita (sp?). Though, what Buddha around at that time?
                > >
                > > A Buddhist teacher introduced me to the Gospel of Thomas. There
                are
                > > other gospels and books of both testaments that were
                not "canonized.
                > > I'm forces to ask, why not? The Gospel of Thomas is one such
                gospel.
                > > You won't find it if many churches, if any.
                > >
                > > Peace,
                > > Kraig
                > >
                > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...>
                wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Surely, I can see how it would be hard to understand why
                Christians
                > > > would call themselves Buddhists. Honestly, when I put myself in
                your
                > > > shoes, I think it could be interpreted in many ways. It seems
                to me
                > > > that there can sometimes be a reluctance at times, to
                accept "one or
                > > > the other", either from convenience, laziness, or a selfish
                > > > convenience. Some will believe that Buddha started something
                that
                > > > Christ finished and that they both bring us together, and some
                will
                > > > slowly let go of Christian beliefs, take the one seat and work
                > > > diligently toward enlightenment. That is all very sweet,
                honestly.
                > > >
                > > > In my mind, one does not negate the other. There is a very well
                liked
                > > > Buddhist Monk that had commented on how he believed that Jesus
                and
                > > > Buddha have met, are meeting now and will meet forever, also
                that they
                > > > were brothers and they were sisters. As well, in my mind I do
                see them
                > > > lean toward another in so many comparisons.
                > > >
                > > > Now correct me if I'm wrong [I'm back from a very long break],
                but do
                > > > not Buddhists believe in somewhat of a higher power? Some
                energy that
                > > > has a name? When I was purely Christian, God looked like
                Charlton
                > > > Hestin in The Ten Commandments. Now its definition blends with
                an
                > > > energy some may see as Nirvana, or eternal laws.
                > > >
                > > > If you find a belief in any "kind of God" difficult,
                that "kind" may
                > > > be percieved in many angles, many real points of view.
                > > >
                > > > It seems like a benefit of Buddhism is to know that, although
                there
                > > > are some divisions in the religion, it appears that most
                everything as
                > > > far as historical information is still true and accounted for.
                > > > Cristianity, on the other hand has been horribly distorted,
                > > > fragmented, misinterpreted, over-inflated, hidden,
                overglorified in
                > > > cinema and found guilty of many man-made sufferings in its own
                name.
                > > >
                > > > Many Christians believe that there are some serious pockets, or
                holes
                > > > in the informational continuum about Christ. Tne belief is that
                > > > Buddha fills in those pockets, those holes. Jesus'complete
                dialog from
                > > > the entire New Testament is only two hours. There's little or no
                > > > account for over half of his life. Many believe he traveled to
                India
                > > > and found Buddha. I doubt that the vatican would enjoy that
                idea.
                > > >
                > > > To share the thought in my mind and heart, is to say that they
                dwell
                > > > together in harmony, perfectly true, each of them, at all
                times. It is
                > > > no longer important for me to think or say anything divisive. I
                fail
                > > > to see any differences in so many ways. I cast away different
                > > > perceptions. hope I can keep that attitude.
                > > >
                > > > Thank you very much Diane. I'm glad to meet you.
                > > >
                > > > -Scott
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "flora_connemara"
                > > > <peter.brown5@b...> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Hi all, I am finding it difficult to understand where people
                who
                > are
                > > > > calling themselves Buddhists are also calling themselves
                > Christians.
                > > > > Doesn't one negate the other, Buddhists do not believe in a
                higher
                > > > > power or 'god' but Christians do? I was drawn to Buddhism
                > because of
                > > > > the way of life it espouses but also for the lack of a god, I
                find
                > > > > belief in a god very difficult to fathom.
                > > > > from Diane in Australia
              • flora_connemara
                Hi all, thanks Ken, Joyce and everyone else for your replies. I do not dipute that Jesus may have existed and taught very similar to Buddhist ideals but I am
                Message 7 of 30 , Mar 3, 2005
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                  Hi all, thanks Ken, Joyce and everyone else for your replies. I do
                  not dipute that Jesus may have existed and taught very similar to
                  Buddhist ideals but I am discussing God not Jesus, Jesus was a man
                  not a god, I assume. One of the things that drew me to Buddhism was
                  the lack of a god, Buddhists are responsible for their own actions
                  whereas I feel those who believe in a god can then use this as an
                  excuse/reason for happenings.
                  Australia is not as religious as USA, maybe because our settlement
                  is younger and was by a different group of people than USA, ours
                  being mainly convict and USA being the pilgrims originally. An
                  example is say American Music Awards where thanking God seems to be
                  the norm for winners whereas in Australia this would be the
                  exception. I also think we are much more irreverent when it comes to
                  our political leaders.
                  My main point originally was this is a Buddhist list and while I
                  realise some members may be both Christian and Buddhist, discussion
                  of Buddhism is what I am here for. I can go back to my old high
                  school for a discussion on Christianity. I would prefer to be
                  learning about Buddhism without tying in Christianity as I am not a
                  Christian but a Buddhist. I relise some members may be both but I
                  would prefer this list not to be 'Buddhism as it relates to
                  Christians".
                  Thanks all, from Diane.
                • Kraig Mottar
                  Americans should be more irreverant to politics, byr rhey are not. America could learn a lot from you. That is one good thing about Buddhism, that Buddha was
                  Message 8 of 30 , Mar 3, 2005
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                    Americans should be more irreverant to politics, byr rhey are not.
                    America could learn a lot from you.

                    That is one good thing about Buddhism, that Buddha was not and denied
                    being, a god. Buddha did and realized great things and he was human,
                    that being that, people can know that they who are also human, have
                    the same potential. Though I can't worry about emulating God, Christ,
                    or Buddha, since I've already made mistakes, and those mistakes are
                    made, and no unmaking them is possible.

                    Actually my current quest is not believing in God since I already do
                    and that's that, but figuring out what God IS, and how It relates to
                    the universe, and what the universe IS.
                    I've kind of settled on the pantheistic or panantheistic model, anyway...

                    I don't think I'll ever settle on saying I am a Christian, Buddhist,
                    this, that, or the other thing, I am ME, I have my own inner temple,
                    and I can adopter bits I learn from all the outer temples.

                    Peace,
                    Kraig


                    --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "flora_connemara"
                    <peter.brown5@b...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi all, thanks Ken, Joyce and everyone else for your replies. I do
                    > not dipute that Jesus may have existed and taught very similar to
                    > Buddhist ideals but I am discussing God not Jesus, Jesus was a man
                    > not a god, I assume. One of the things that drew me to Buddhism was
                    > the lack of a god, Buddhists are responsible for their own actions
                    > whereas I feel those who believe in a god can then use this as an
                    > excuse/reason for happenings.
                    > Australia is not as religious as USA, maybe because our settlement
                    > is younger and was by a different group of people than USA, ours
                    > being mainly convict and USA being the pilgrims originally. An
                    > example is say American Music Awards where thanking God seems to be
                    > the norm for winners whereas in Australia this would be the
                    > exception. I also think we are much more irreverent when it comes to
                    > our political leaders.
                    > My main point originally was this is a Buddhist list and while I
                    > realise some members may be both Christian and Buddhist, discussion
                    > of Buddhism is what I am here for. I can go back to my old high
                    > school for a discussion on Christianity. I would prefer to be
                    > learning about Buddhism without tying in Christianity as I am not a
                    > Christian but a Buddhist. I relise some members may be both but I
                    > would prefer this list not to be 'Buddhism as it relates to
                    > Christians".
                    > Thanks all, from Diane.
                  • Scott
                    Right. I ll just use yahoo as a group and post messages and informatiom on that site based on the group. The group will help to form the site. From now on I
                    Message 9 of 30 , Mar 4, 2005
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                      Right.

                      I'll just use yahoo as a group and post messages and informatiom on
                      that site based on the group. The group will help to form the site.

                      From now on I will devote all dialog to Buddhism while I am here.

                      If anyone would like to join my group, it is here:

                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jesusandbuddha/
                      I'll tweak it out later this weekend.

                      Thank you.

                      -Scott



                      --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                      <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I'm ok with that. I have no leadership skills to start or maintain
                      > such a group, I'm just a seeker, and seekers are clueless.
                      > Though, I don't see that this dicussion is being disruptive here,
                      > people have the option of not participating in it if they don't want
                      > to.
                      >
                      > I'll go to that site. My father is very Christian, and sees Buddhism
                      > as a phiosophy not a religion and has much respect of it, me, I don't
                      > see it as a philosophy or a religion, I see it as a practice.
                      >
                      > Peace,
                      > Kraig
                      >
                      > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > You and I seem to share the same viewpoints on this and we've taken
                      > > some time, dialog and energy into this group.
                      > > I wonder ho


                      wever, (and this may be paranoia) if it might be best for
                      > > the group if we concentrate more on the topic/theme of this group. I
                      > > am very interested in the book of Thomas and other things we've
                      > > brought up.
                      > >
                      > > Kraig, would you like me to start a group on that topic? or we could
                      > > utilize this site I have just recently built:
                      > >
                      > > http://www.geocities.com/kal_el1965
                      > >
                      > > We could collaborate there.
                      > >
                      > > I'm just thinking that for the benefit of Buddhism in this forum
                      > > alone, I might be able to concentrate mostly on the Buddhist
                      > dialog.
                      > >
                      > > -Scott
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                      > > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > How did Buddhism avoid human distortion?
                      > > >
                      > > > Tell me more about Christ and Buddha meeting? Christ is mentioned
                      > in
                      > > > the Bhagavadgita (sp?). Though, what Buddha around at that time?
                      > > >
                      > > > A Buddhist teacher introduced me to the Gospel of Thomas. There
                      > are
                      > > > other gospels and books of both testaments that were
                      > not "canonized.
                      > > > I'm forces to ask, why not? The Gospel of Thomas is one such
                      > gospel.
                      > > > You won't find it if many churches, if any.
                      > > >
                      > > > Peace,
                      > > > Kraig
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Surely, I can see how it would be hard to understand why
                      > Christians
                      > > > > would call themselves Buddhists. Honestly, when I put myself in
                      > your
                      > > > > shoes, I think it could be interpreted in many ways. It seems
                      > to me
                      > > > > that there can sometimes be a reluctance at times, to
                      > accept "one or
                      > > > > the other", either from convenience, laziness, or a selfish
                      > > > > convenience. Some will believe that Buddha started something
                      > that
                      > > > > Christ finished and that they both bring us together, and some
                      > will
                      > > > > slowly let go of Christian beliefs, take the one seat and work
                      > > > > diligently toward enlightenment. That is all very sweet,
                      > honestly.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > In my mind, one does not negate the other. There is a very well
                      > liked
                      > > > > Buddhist Monk that had commented on how he believed that Jesus
                      > and
                      > > > > Buddha have met, are meeting now and will meet forever, also
                      > that they
                      > > > > were brothers and they were sisters. As well, in my mind I do
                      > see them
                      > > > > lean toward another in so many comparisons.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Now correct me if I'm wrong [I'm back from a very long break],
                      > but do
                      > > > > not Buddhists believe in somewhat of a higher power? Some
                      > energy that
                      > > > > has a name? When I was purely Christian, God looked like
                      > Charlton
                      > > > > Hestin in The Ten Commandments. Now its definition blends with
                      > an
                      > > > > energy some may see as Nirvana, or eternal laws.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > If you find a belief in any "kind of God" difficult,
                      > that "kind" may
                      > > > > be percieved in many angles, many real points of view.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > It seems like a benefit of Buddhism is to know that, although
                      > there
                      > > > > are some divisions in the religion, it appears that most
                      > everything as
                      > > > > far as historical information is still true and accounted for.
                      > > > > Cristianity, on the other hand has been horribly distorted,
                      > > > > fragmented, misinterpreted, over-inflated, hidden,
                      > overglorified in
                      > > > > cinema and found guilty of many man-made sufferings in its own
                      > name.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Many Christians believe that there are some serious pockets, or
                      > holes
                      > > > > in the informational continuum about Christ. Tne belief is that
                      > > > > Buddha fills in those pockets, those holes. Jesus'complete
                      > dialog from
                      > > > > the entire New Testament is only two hours. There's little or no
                      > > > > account for over half of his life. Many believe he traveled to
                      > India
                      > > > > and found Buddha. I doubt that the vatican would enjoy that
                      > idea.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > To share the thought in my mind and heart, is to say that they
                      > dwell
                      > > > > together in harmony, perfectly true, each of them, at all
                      > times. It is
                      > > > > no longer important for me to think or say anything divisive. I
                      > fail
                      > > > > to see any differences in so many ways. I cast away different
                      > > > > perceptions. hope I can keep that attitude.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Thank you very much Diane. I'm glad to meet you.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > -Scott
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "flora_connemara"
                      > > > > <peter.brown5@b...> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Hi all, I am finding it difficult to understand where people
                      > who
                      > > are
                      > > > > > calling themselves Buddhists are also calling themselves
                      > > Christians.
                      > > > > > Doesn't one negate the other, Buddhists do not believe in a
                      > higher
                      > > > > > power or 'god' but Christians do? I was drawn to Buddhism
                      > > because of
                      > > > > > the way of life it espouses but also for the lack of a god, I
                      > find
                      > > > > > belief in a god very difficult to fathom.
                      > > > > > from Diane in Australia
                    • Kraig Mottar
                      I don t know why so many people here seem to be getting the attitude about some of the messages about, Christianity, this, that, and the other thing, as they
                      Message 10 of 30 , Mar 4, 2005
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                        I don't know why so many people here seem to be getting the attitude
                        about some of the messages about, Christianity, this, that, and the
                        other thing, as they relate to Buddhism. Maybe they somehow feel they
                        are being forced to participate in all threads. I detect a hint of
                        born again Buddhism.
                        This attitude actually seems counter to Buddhism.

                        I will check out that site.

                        Peace,
                        Kraig


                        --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Right.
                        >
                        > I'll just use yahoo as a group and post messages and informatiom on
                        > that site based on the group. The group will help to form the site.
                        >
                        > From now on I will devote all dialog to Buddhism while I am here.
                        >
                        > If anyone would like to join my group, it is here:
                        >
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jesusandbuddha/
                        > I'll tweak it out later this weekend.
                        >
                        > Thank you.
                        >
                        > -Scott
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                        > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I'm ok with that. I have no leadership skills to start or maintain
                        > > such a group, I'm just a seeker, and seekers are clueless.
                        > > Though, I don't see that this dicussion is being disruptive here,
                        > > people have the option of not participating in it if they don't want
                        > > to.
                        > >
                        > > I'll go to that site. My father is very Christian, and sees Buddhism
                        > > as a phiosophy not a religion and has much respect of it, me, I don't
                        > > see it as a philosophy or a religion, I see it as a practice.
                        > >
                        > > Peace,
                        > > Kraig
                        > >
                        > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > You and I seem to share the same viewpoints on this and we've taken
                        > > > some time, dialog and energy into this group.
                        > > > I wonder ho
                        >
                        >
                        > wever, (and this may be paranoia) if it might be best for
                        > > > the group if we concentrate more on the topic/theme of this group. I
                        > > > am very interested in the book of Thomas and other things we've
                        > > > brought up.
                        > > >
                        > > > Kraig, would you like me to start a group on that topic? or we could
                        > > > utilize this site I have just recently built:
                        > > >
                        > > > http://www.geocities.com/kal_el1965
                        > > >
                        > > > We could collaborate there.
                        > > >
                        > > > I'm just thinking that for the benefit of Buddhism in this forum
                        > > > alone, I might be able to concentrate mostly on the Buddhist
                        > > dialog.
                        > > >
                        > > > -Scott
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                        > > > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > How did Buddhism avoid human distortion?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Tell me more about Christ and Buddha meeting? Christ is mentioned
                        > > in
                        > > > > the Bhagavadgita (sp?). Though, what Buddha around at that time?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > A Buddhist teacher introduced me to the Gospel of Thomas. There
                        > > are
                        > > > > other gospels and books of both testaments that were
                        > > not "canonized.
                        > > > > I'm forces to ask, why not? The Gospel of Thomas is one such
                        > > gospel.
                        > > > > You won't find it if many churches, if any.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Peace,
                        > > > > Kraig
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Surely, I can see how it would be hard to understand why
                        > > Christians
                        > > > > > would call themselves Buddhists. Honestly, when I put myself in
                        > > your
                        > > > > > shoes, I think it could be interpreted in many ways. It seems
                        > > to me
                        > > > > > that there can sometimes be a reluctance at times, to
                        > > accept "one or
                        > > > > > the other", either from convenience, laziness, or a selfish
                        > > > > > convenience. Some will believe that Buddha started something
                        > > that
                        > > > > > Christ finished and that they both bring us together, and some
                        > > will
                        > > > > > slowly let go of Christian beliefs, take the one seat and work
                        > > > > > diligently toward enlightenment. That is all very sweet,
                        > > honestly.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > In my mind, one does not negate the other. There is a very well
                        > > liked
                        > > > > > Buddhist Monk that had commented on how he believed that Jesus
                        > > and
                        > > > > > Buddha have met, are meeting now and will meet forever, also
                        > > that they
                        > > > > > were brothers and they were sisters. As well, in my mind I do
                        > > see them
                        > > > > > lean toward another in so many comparisons.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Now correct me if I'm wrong [I'm back from a very long break],
                        > > but do
                        > > > > > not Buddhists believe in somewhat of a higher power? Some
                        > > energy that
                        > > > > > has a name? When I was purely Christian, God looked like
                        > > Charlton
                        > > > > > Hestin in The Ten Commandments. Now its definition blends with
                        > > an
                        > > > > > energy some may see as Nirvana, or eternal laws.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > If you find a belief in any "kind of God" difficult,
                        > > that "kind" may
                        > > > > > be percieved in many angles, many real points of view.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > It seems like a benefit of Buddhism is to know that, although
                        > > there
                        > > > > > are some divisions in the religion, it appears that most
                        > > everything as
                        > > > > > far as historical information is still true and accounted for.
                        > > > > > Cristianity, on the other hand has been horribly distorted,
                        > > > > > fragmented, misinterpreted, over-inflated, hidden,
                        > > overglorified in
                        > > > > > cinema and found guilty of many man-made sufferings in its own
                        > > name.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Many Christians believe that there are some serious pockets, or
                        > > holes
                        > > > > > in the informational continuum about Christ. Tne belief is that
                        > > > > > Buddha fills in those pockets, those holes. Jesus'complete
                        > > dialog from
                        > > > > > the entire New Testament is only two hours. There's little or no
                        > > > > > account for over half of his life. Many believe he traveled to
                        > > India
                        > > > > > and found Buddha. I doubt that the vatican would enjoy that
                        > > idea.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > To share the thought in my mind and heart, is to say that they
                        > > dwell
                        > > > > > together in harmony, perfectly true, each of them, at all
                        > > times. It is
                        > > > > > no longer important for me to think or say anything divisive. I
                        > > fail
                        > > > > > to see any differences in so many ways. I cast away different
                        > > > > > perceptions. hope I can keep that attitude.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Thank you very much Diane. I'm glad to meet you.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > -Scott
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "flora_connemara"
                        > > > > > <peter.brown5@b...> wrote:
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Hi all, I am finding it difficult to understand where people
                        > > who
                        > > > are
                        > > > > > > calling themselves Buddhists are also calling themselves
                        > > > Christians.
                        > > > > > > Doesn't one negate the other, Buddhists do not believe in a
                        > > higher
                        > > > > > > power or 'god' but Christians do? I was drawn to Buddhism
                        > > > because of
                        > > > > > > the way of life it espouses but also for the lack of a god, I
                        > > find
                        > > > > > > belief in a god very difficult to fathom.
                        > > > > > > from Diane in Australia
                      • Scott
                        I look at it this way. Under my other Yahoo profile, I started a group about PING golf equipment. PING and Calloway are both top notch golf equipment
                        Message 11 of 30 , Mar 4, 2005
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                          I look at it this way.

                          Under my other Yahoo profile, I started a group about PING golf equipment.
                          PING and Calloway are both top notch golf equipment manufacturers.
                          They both make clubs that will greatly help you with the game.
                          However, my group is to talk about PING. Although Calloway is just as
                          good, I don't want discussions about their equipment. So, I understand
                          why people sometimes feel a need to "draw a line" and exclude other
                          beliefs and/or dialog.

                          Although it is not what I particularly believe to be "good", I
                          objectively think that I'll benefit Buddhism best in this group if I
                          follow the thought words that relate to the title of the group. It's
                          just that simple.

                          Now the group I have started:

                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jesusandbuddha/

                          Is a place where ANYONE from this group can join.

                          Jesus once said "The kingdom of heaven is like a wedding, God is the
                          groom, mankind is the bride, and everyone is invited".

                          My input in this group will be Buddhist, because it is a Buddhist group.

                          -Scott



                          --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                          <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I don't know why so many people here seem to be getting the attitude
                          > about some of the messages about, Christianity, this, that, and the
                          > other thing, as they relate to Buddhism. Maybe they somehow feel they
                          > are being forced to participate in all threads. I detect a hint of
                          > born again Buddhism.
                          > This attitude actually seems counter to Buddhism.
                          >
                          > I will check out that site.
                          >
                          > Peace,
                          > Kraig
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Right.
                          > >
                          > > I'll just use yahoo as a group and post messages and informatiom on
                          > > that site based on the group. The group will help to form the site.
                          > >
                          > > From now on I will devote all dialog to Buddhism while I am here.
                          > >
                          > > If anyone would like to join my group, it is here:
                          > >
                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jesusandbuddha/
                          > > I'll tweak it out later this weekend.
                          > >
                          > > Thank you.
                          > >
                          > > -Scott
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                          > > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > I'm ok with that. I have no leadership skills to start or maintain
                          > > > such a group, I'm just a seeker, and seekers are clueless.
                          > > > Though, I don't see that this dicussion is being disruptive here,
                          > > > people have the option of not participating in it if they don't
                          want
                          > > > to.
                          > > >
                          > > > I'll go to that site. My father is very Christian, and sees
                          Buddhism
                          > > > as a phiosophy not a religion and has much respect of it, me, I
                          don't
                          > > > see it as a philosophy or a religion, I see it as a practice.
                          > > >
                          > > > Peace,
                          > > > Kraig
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > You and I seem to share the same viewpoints on this and we've
                          taken
                          > > > > some time, dialog and energy into this group.
                          > > > > I wonder ho
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > wever, (and this may be paranoia) if it might be best for
                          > > > > the group if we concentrate more on the topic/theme of this
                          group. I
                          > > > > am very interested in the book of Thomas and other things we've
                          > > > > brought up.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Kraig, would you like me to start a group on that topic? or we
                          could
                          > > > > utilize this site I have just recently built:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > http://www.geocities.com/kal_el1965
                          > > > >
                          > > > > We could collaborate there.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I'm just thinking that for the benefit of Buddhism in this forum
                          > > > > alone, I might be able to concentrate mostly on the Buddhist
                          > > > dialog.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > -Scott
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                          > > > > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > How did Buddhism avoid human distortion?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Tell me more about Christ and Buddha meeting? Christ is
                          mentioned
                          > > > in
                          > > > > > the Bhagavadgita (sp?). Though, what Buddha around at that time?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > A Buddhist teacher introduced me to the Gospel of Thomas. There
                          > > > are
                          > > > > > other gospels and books of both testaments that were
                          > > > not "canonized.
                          > > > > > I'm forces to ask, why not? The Gospel of Thomas is one such
                          > > > gospel.
                          > > > > > You won't find it if many churches, if any.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Peace,
                          > > > > > Kraig
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...>
                          > > > wrote:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Surely, I can see how it would be hard to understand why
                          > > > Christians
                          > > > > > > would call themselves Buddhists. Honestly, when I put
                          myself in
                          > > > your
                          > > > > > > shoes, I think it could be interpreted in many ways. It seems
                          > > > to me
                          > > > > > > that there can sometimes be a reluctance at times, to
                          > > > accept "one or
                          > > > > > > the other", either from convenience, laziness, or a selfish
                          > > > > > > convenience. Some will believe that Buddha started something
                          > > > that
                          > > > > > > Christ finished and that they both bring us together, and
                          some
                          > > > will
                          > > > > > > slowly let go of Christian beliefs, take the one seat and work
                          > > > > > > diligently toward enlightenment. That is all very sweet,
                          > > > honestly.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > In my mind, one does not negate the other. There is a very
                          well
                          > > > liked
                          > > > > > > Buddhist Monk that had commented on how he believed that
                          Jesus
                          > > > and
                          > > > > > > Buddha have met, are meeting now and will meet forever, also
                          > > > that they
                          > > > > > > were brothers and they were sisters. As well, in my mind I do
                          > > > see them
                          > > > > > > lean toward another in so many comparisons.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Now correct me if I'm wrong [I'm back from a very long
                          break],
                          > > > but do
                          > > > > > > not Buddhists believe in somewhat of a higher power? Some
                          > > > energy that
                          > > > > > > has a name? When I was purely Christian, God looked like
                          > > > Charlton
                          > > > > > > Hestin in The Ten Commandments. Now its definition blends
                          with
                          > > > an
                          > > > > > > energy some may see as Nirvana, or eternal laws.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > If you find a belief in any "kind of God" difficult,
                          > > > that "kind" may
                          > > > > > > be percieved in many angles, many real points of view.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > It seems like a benefit of Buddhism is to know that, although
                          > > > there
                          > > > > > > are some divisions in the religion, it appears that most
                          > > > everything as
                          > > > > > > far as historical information is still true and accounted for.
                          > > > > > > Cristianity, on the other hand has been horribly distorted,
                          > > > > > > fragmented, misinterpreted, over-inflated, hidden,
                          > > > overglorified in
                          > > > > > > cinema and found guilty of many man-made sufferings in its
                          own
                          > > > name.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Many Christians believe that there are some serious
                          pockets, or
                          > > > holes
                          > > > > > > in the informational continuum about Christ. Tne belief is
                          that
                          > > > > > > Buddha fills in those pockets, those holes. Jesus'complete
                          > > > dialog from
                          > > > > > > the entire New Testament is only two hours. There's little
                          or no
                          > > > > > > account for over half of his life. Many believe he
                          traveled to
                          > > > India
                          > > > > > > and found Buddha. I doubt that the vatican would enjoy that
                          > > > idea.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > To share the thought in my mind and heart, is to say that
                          they
                          > > > dwell
                          > > > > > > together in harmony, perfectly true, each of them, at all
                          > > > times. It is
                          > > > > > > no longer important for me to think or say anything
                          divisive. I
                          > > > fail
                          > > > > > > to see any differences in so many ways. I cast away different
                          > > > > > > perceptions. hope I can keep that attitude.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Thank you very much Diane. I'm glad to meet you.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > -Scott
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "flora_connemara"
                          > > > > > > <peter.brown5@b...> wrote:
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Hi all, I am finding it difficult to understand where
                          people
                          > > > who
                          > > > > are
                          > > > > > > > calling themselves Buddhists are also calling themselves
                          > > > > Christians.
                          > > > > > > > Doesn't one negate the other, Buddhists do not believe
                          in a
                          > > > higher
                          > > > > > > > power or 'god' but Christians do? I was drawn to Buddhism
                          > > > > because of
                          > > > > > > > the way of life it espouses but also for the lack of a
                          god, I
                          > > > find
                          > > > > > > > belief in a god very difficult to fathom.
                          > > > > > > > from Diane in Australia
                        • Daneille
                          This is a group to talk about Buddhism. I have never in my whole life been Christian, so I am not really interested in the parallels or differences between
                          Message 12 of 30 , Mar 4, 2005
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                            This is a group to talk about Buddhism. I have never in my whole life been
                            Christian, so I am not really interested in the parallels or differences between
                            Buddhism and Christianity. Even if I were, I wouldn't think that a group that is
                            for those learning about Buddhism is the appropriate forum to discuss
                            Christianity.

                            It has nothing to do with being "born again."

                            Daneille

                            > I don't know why so many people here seem to be getting the attitude
                            > about some of the messages about, Christianity, this, that, and the
                            > other thing, as they relate to Buddhism. Maybe they somehow feel they
                            > are being forced to participate in all threads. I detect a hint of
                            > born again Buddhism.
                            > This attitude actually seems counter to Buddhism.
                            >
                            > I will check out that site.
                            >
                            > Peace,
                            > Kraig
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Right.
                            > >
                            > > I'll just use yahoo as a group and post messages and informatiom on
                            > > that site based on the group. The group will help to form the site.
                            > >
                            > > From now on I will devote all dialog to Buddhism while I am here.
                            > >
                            > > If anyone would like to join my group, it is here:
                            > >
                            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jesusandbuddha/
                            > > I'll tweak it out later this weekend.
                            > >
                            > > Thank you.
                            > >
                            > > -Scott
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                            > > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > I'm ok with that. I have no leadership skills to start or maintain
                            > > > such a group, I'm just a seeker, and seekers are clueless.
                            > > > Though, I don't see that this dicussion is being disruptive here,
                            > > > people have the option of not participating in it if they don't want
                            > > > to.
                            > > >
                            > > > I'll go to that site. My father is very Christian, and sees Buddhism
                            > > > as a phiosophy not a religion and has much respect of it, me, I don't
                            > > > see it as a philosophy or a religion, I see it as a practice.
                            > > >
                            > > > Peace,
                            > > > Kraig
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...>
                            wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > You and I seem to share the same viewpoints on this and we've taken
                            > > > > some time, dialog and energy into this group.
                            > > > > I wonder ho
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > wever, (and this may be paranoia) if it might be best for
                            > > > > the group if we concentrate more on the topic/theme of this group. I
                            > > > > am very interested in the book of Thomas and other things we've
                            > > > > brought up.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Kraig, would you like me to start a group on that topic? or we could
                            > > > > utilize this site I have just recently built:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > http://www.geocities.com/kal_el1965
                            > > > >
                            > > > > We could collaborate there.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I'm just thinking that for the benefit of Buddhism in this forum
                            > > > > alone, I might be able to concentrate mostly on the Buddhist
                            > > > dialog.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > -Scott
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                            > > > > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > How did Buddhism avoid human distortion?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Tell me more about Christ and Buddha meeting? Christ is
                            mentioned
                            > > > in
                            > > > > > the Bhagavadgita (sp?). Though, what Buddha around at that time?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > A Buddhist teacher introduced me to the Gospel of Thomas. There
                            > > > are
                            > > > > > other gospels and books of both testaments that were
                            > > > not "canonized.
                            > > > > > I'm forces to ask, why not? The Gospel of Thomas is one such
                            > > > gospel.
                            > > > > > You won't find it if many churches, if any.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Peace,
                            > > > > > Kraig
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...>
                            > > > wrote:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Surely, I can see how it would be hard to understand why
                            > > > Christians
                            > > > > > > would call themselves Buddhists. Honestly, when I put myself in
                            > > > your
                            > > > > > > shoes, I think it could be interpreted in many ways. It seems
                            > > > to me
                            > > > > > > that there can sometimes be a reluctance at times, to
                            > > > accept "one or
                            > > > > > > the other", either from convenience, laziness, or a selfish
                            > > > > > > convenience. Some will believe that Buddha started something
                            > > > that
                            > > > > > > Christ finished and that they both bring us together, and some
                            > > > will
                            > > > > > > slowly let go of Christian beliefs, take the one seat and work
                            > > > > > > diligently toward enlightenment. That is all very sweet,
                            > > > honestly.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > In my mind, one does not negate the other. There is a very well
                            > > > liked
                            > > > > > > Buddhist Monk that had commented on how he believed that
                            Jesus
                            > > > and
                            > > > > > > Buddha have met, are meeting now and will meet forever, also
                            > > > that they
                            > > > > > > were brothers and they were sisters. As well, in my mind I do
                            > > > see them
                            > > > > > > lean toward another in so many comparisons.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Now correct me if I'm wrong [I'm back from a very long break],
                            > > > but do
                            > > > > > > not Buddhists believe in somewhat of a higher power? Some
                            > > > energy that
                            > > > > > > has a name? When I was purely Christian, God looked like
                            > > > Charlton
                            > > > > > > Hestin in The Ten Commandments. Now its definition blends with
                            > > > an
                            > > > > > > energy some may see as Nirvana, or eternal laws.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > If you find a belief in any "kind of God" difficult,
                            > > > that "kind" may
                            > > > > > > be percieved in many angles, many real points of view.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > It seems like a benefit of Buddhism is to know that, although
                            > > > there
                            > > > > > > are some divisions in the religion, it appears that most
                            > > > everything as
                            > > > > > > far as historical information is still true and accounted for.
                            > > > > > > Cristianity, on the other hand has been horribly distorted,
                            > > > > > > fragmented, misinterpreted, over-inflated, hidden,
                            > > > overglorified in
                            > > > > > > cinema and found guilty of many man-made sufferings in its own
                            > > > name.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Many Christians believe that there are some serious pockets, or
                            > > > holes
                            > > > > > > in the informational continuum about Christ. Tne belief is that
                            > > > > > > Buddha fills in those pockets, those holes. Jesus'complete
                            > > > dialog from
                            > > > > > > the entire New Testament is only two hours. There's little or no
                            > > > > > > account for over half of his life. Many believe he traveled to
                            > > > India
                            > > > > > > and found Buddha. I doubt that the vatican would enjoy that
                            > > > idea.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > To share the thought in my mind and heart, is to say that they
                            > > > dwell
                            > > > > > > together in harmony, perfectly true, each of them, at all
                            > > > times. It is
                            > > > > > > no longer important for me to think or say anything divisive. I
                            > > > fail
                            > > > > > > to see any differences in so many ways. I cast away different
                            > > > > > > perceptions. hope I can keep that attitude.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Thank you very much Diane. I'm glad to meet you.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > -Scott
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "flora_connemara"
                            > > > > > > <peter.brown5@b...> wrote:
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Hi all, I am finding it difficult to understand where people
                            > > > who
                            > > > > are
                            > > > > > > > calling themselves Buddhists are also calling themselves
                            > > > > Christians.
                            > > > > > > > Doesn't one negate the other, Buddhists do not believe in a
                            > > > higher
                            > > > > > > > power or 'god' but Christians do? I was drawn to Buddhism
                            > > > > because of
                            > > > > > > > the way of life it espouses but also for the lack of a god, I
                            > > > find
                            > > > > > > > belief in a god very difficult to fathom.
                            > > > > > > > from Diane in Australia
                          • Scott
                            As a Christian myself, I m trying to get the Christian stuff OUT of this group. I highly respect your opinion and I agree with you. At this point, I think
                            Message 13 of 30 , Mar 4, 2005
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                              As a Christian myself, I'm trying to get the "Christian" stuff OUT of
                              this group.
                              I highly respect your opinion and I agree with you.
                              At this point, I think we've got the point accross and we may be
                              better off dropping the subject.

                              So let's drop it and get on with the Buddha and the ways thereof.
                              Enough is surely enough.

                              -Scott


                              --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Daneille" <stonehenge612@y...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > This is a group to talk about Buddhism. I have never in my whole
                              life been
                              > Christian, so I am not really interested in the parallels or
                              differences between
                              > Buddhism and Christianity. Even if I were, I wouldn't think that a
                              group that is
                              > for those learning about Buddhism is the appropriate forum to discuss
                              > Christianity.
                              >
                              > It has nothing to do with being "born again."
                              >
                              > Daneille
                              >
                              > > I don't know why so many people here seem to be getting the attitude
                              > > about some of the messages about, Christianity, this, that, and the
                              > > other thing, as they relate to Buddhism. Maybe they somehow feel they
                              > > are being forced to participate in all threads. I detect a hint of
                              > > born again Buddhism.
                              > > This attitude actually seems counter to Buddhism.
                              > >
                              > > I will check out that site.
                              > >
                              > > Peace,
                              > > Kraig
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Right.
                              > > >
                              > > > I'll just use yahoo as a group and post messages and informatiom on
                              > > > that site based on the group. The group will help to form the site.
                              > > >
                              > > > From now on I will devote all dialog to Buddhism while I am here.
                              > > >
                              > > > If anyone would like to join my group, it is here:
                              > > >
                              > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jesusandbuddha/
                              > > > I'll tweak it out later this weekend.
                              > > >
                              > > > Thank you.
                              > > >
                              > > > -Scott
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                              > > > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I'm ok with that. I have no leadership skills to start or
                              maintain
                              > > > > such a group, I'm just a seeker, and seekers are clueless.
                              > > > > Though, I don't see that this dicussion is being disruptive here,
                              > > > > people have the option of not participating in it if they
                              don't want
                              > > > > to.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I'll go to that site. My father is very Christian, and sees
                              Buddhism
                              > > > > as a phiosophy not a religion and has much respect of it, me,
                              I don't
                              > > > > see it as a philosophy or a religion, I see it as a practice.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Peace,
                              > > > > Kraig
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...>
                              > wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > You and I seem to share the same viewpoints on this and
                              we've taken
                              > > > > > some time, dialog and energy into this group.
                              > > > > > I wonder ho
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > wever, (and this may be paranoia) if it might be best for
                              > > > > > the group if we concentrate more on the topic/theme of this
                              group. I
                              > > > > > am very interested in the book of Thomas and other things we've
                              > > > > > brought up.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Kraig, would you like me to start a group on that topic? or
                              we could
                              > > > > > utilize this site I have just recently built:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > http://www.geocities.com/kal_el1965
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > We could collaborate there.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I'm just thinking that for the benefit of Buddhism in this forum
                              > > > > > alone, I might be able to concentrate mostly on the Buddhist
                              > > > > dialog.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > -Scott
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                              > > > > > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > How did Buddhism avoid human distortion?
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Tell me more about Christ and Buddha meeting? Christ is
                              > mentioned
                              > > > > in
                              > > > > > > the Bhagavadgita (sp?). Though, what Buddha around at that
                              time?
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > A Buddhist teacher introduced me to the Gospel of Thomas.
                              There
                              > > > > are
                              > > > > > > other gospels and books of both testaments that were
                              > > > > not "canonized.
                              > > > > > > I'm forces to ask, why not? The Gospel of Thomas is one such
                              > > > > gospel.
                              > > > > > > You won't find it if many churches, if any.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Peace,
                              > > > > > > Kraig
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott"
                              <kal_el1965@y...>
                              > > > > wrote:
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Surely, I can see how it would be hard to understand why
                              > > > > Christians
                              > > > > > > > would call themselves Buddhists. Honestly, when I put
                              myself in
                              > > > > your
                              > > > > > > > shoes, I think it could be interpreted in many ways. It
                              seems
                              > > > > to me
                              > > > > > > > that there can sometimes be a reluctance at times, to
                              > > > > accept "one or
                              > > > > > > > the other", either from convenience, laziness, or a selfish
                              > > > > > > > convenience. Some will believe that Buddha started
                              something
                              > > > > that
                              > > > > > > > Christ finished and that they both bring us together,
                              and some
                              > > > > will
                              > > > > > > > slowly let go of Christian beliefs, take the one seat
                              and work
                              > > > > > > > diligently toward enlightenment. That is all very sweet,
                              > > > > honestly.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > In my mind, one does not negate the other. There is a
                              very well
                              > > > > liked
                              > > > > > > > Buddhist Monk that had commented on how he believed that
                              > Jesus
                              > > > > and
                              > > > > > > > Buddha have met, are meeting now and will meet forever,
                              also
                              > > > > that they
                              > > > > > > > were brothers and they were sisters. As well, in my mind
                              I do
                              > > > > see them
                              > > > > > > > lean toward another in so many comparisons.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Now correct me if I'm wrong [I'm back from a very long
                              break],
                              > > > > but do
                              > > > > > > > not Buddhists believe in somewhat of a higher power? Some
                              > > > > energy that
                              > > > > > > > has a name? When I was purely Christian, God looked like
                              > > > > Charlton
                              > > > > > > > Hestin in The Ten Commandments. Now its definition
                              blends with
                              > > > > an
                              > > > > > > > energy some may see as Nirvana, or eternal laws.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > If you find a belief in any "kind of God" difficult,
                              > > > > that "kind" may
                              > > > > > > > be percieved in many angles, many real points of view.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > It seems like a benefit of Buddhism is to know that,
                              although
                              > > > > there
                              > > > > > > > are some divisions in the religion, it appears that most
                              > > > > everything as
                              > > > > > > > far as historical information is still true and
                              accounted for.
                              > > > > > > > Cristianity, on the other hand has been horribly distorted,
                              > > > > > > > fragmented, misinterpreted, over-inflated, hidden,
                              > > > > overglorified in
                              > > > > > > > cinema and found guilty of many man-made sufferings in
                              its own
                              > > > > name.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Many Christians believe that there are some serious
                              pockets, or
                              > > > > holes
                              > > > > > > > in the informational continuum about Christ. Tne belief
                              is that
                              > > > > > > > Buddha fills in those pockets, those holes. Jesus'complete
                              > > > > dialog from
                              > > > > > > > the entire New Testament is only two hours. There's
                              little or no
                              > > > > > > > account for over half of his life. Many believe he
                              traveled to
                              > > > > India
                              > > > > > > > and found Buddha. I doubt that the vatican would enjoy that
                              > > > > idea.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > To share the thought in my mind and heart, is to say
                              that they
                              > > > > dwell
                              > > > > > > > together in harmony, perfectly true, each of them, at all
                              > > > > times. It is
                              > > > > > > > no longer important for me to think or say anything
                              divisive. I
                              > > > > fail
                              > > > > > > > to see any differences in so many ways. I cast away
                              different
                              > > > > > > > perceptions. hope I can keep that attitude.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Thank you very much Diane. I'm glad to meet you.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > -Scott
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "flora_connemara"
                              > > > > > > > <peter.brown5@b...> wrote:
                              > > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > > Hi all, I am finding it difficult to understand where
                              people
                              > > > > who
                              > > > > > are
                              > > > > > > > > calling themselves Buddhists are also calling themselves
                              > > > > > Christians.
                              > > > > > > > > Doesn't one negate the other, Buddhists do not
                              believe in a
                              > > > > higher
                              > > > > > > > > power or 'god' but Christians do? I was drawn to Buddhism
                              > > > > > because of
                              > > > > > > > > the way of life it espouses but also for the lack of a
                              god, I
                              > > > > find
                              > > > > > > > > belief in a god very difficult to fathom.
                              > > > > > > > > from Diane in Australia
                            • Kraig Mottar
                              I guess I can see it. People usually gravite to the opposite or percieved opposite of what they dislike or find distasteful. Christianity or the Christianity
                              Message 14 of 30 , Mar 4, 2005
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                                I guess I can see it. People usually gravite to the opposite or
                                percieved opposite of what they dislike or find distasteful.
                                Christianity or the Christianity that has been so pervasive in
                                Christianity is judgemental and absolutist thus pushing people to it's
                                opposite extreme, and take an attitude of extreme opposition to and
                                hostility towards it.

                                Ironically, the Christian religion I most often participate in has
                                nore in common with Buddhism than any of mainline Christianity.

                                Peace,

                                Kraig


                                --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I look at it this way.
                                >
                                > Under my other Yahoo profile, I started a group about PING golf
                                equipment.
                                > PING and Calloway are both top notch golf equipment manufacturers.
                                > They both make clubs that will greatly help you with the game.
                                > However, my group is to talk about PING. Although Calloway is just as
                                > good, I don't want discussions about their equipment. So, I understand
                                > why people sometimes feel a need to "draw a line" and exclude other
                                > beliefs and/or dialog.
                                >
                                > Although it is not what I particularly believe to be "good", I
                                > objectively think that I'll benefit Buddhism best in this group if I
                                > follow the thought words that relate to the title of the group. It's
                                > just that simple.
                                >
                                > Now the group I have started:
                                >
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jesusandbuddha/
                                >
                                > Is a place where ANYONE from this group can join.
                                >
                                > Jesus once said "The kingdom of heaven is like a wedding, God is the
                                > groom, mankind is the bride, and everyone is invited".
                                >
                                > My input in this group will be Buddhist, because it is a Buddhist group.
                                >
                                > -Scott
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                                > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I don't know why so many people here seem to be getting the attitude
                                > > about some of the messages about, Christianity, this, that, and the
                                > > other thing, as they relate to Buddhism. Maybe they somehow feel they
                                > > are being forced to participate in all threads. I detect a hint of
                                > > born again Buddhism.
                                > > This attitude actually seems counter to Buddhism.
                                > >
                                > > I will check out that site.
                                > >
                                > > Peace,
                                > > Kraig
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Right.
                                > > >
                                > > > I'll just use yahoo as a group and post messages and informatiom on
                                > > > that site based on the group. The group will help to form the site.
                                > > >
                                > > > From now on I will devote all dialog to Buddhism while I am here.
                                > > >
                                > > > If anyone would like to join my group, it is here:
                                > > >
                                > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jesusandbuddha/
                                > > > I'll tweak it out later this weekend.
                                > > >
                                > > > Thank you.
                                > > >
                                > > > -Scott
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                                > > > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I'm ok with that. I have no leadership skills to start or
                                maintain
                                > > > > such a group, I'm just a seeker, and seekers are clueless.
                                > > > > Though, I don't see that this dicussion is being disruptive here,
                                > > > > people have the option of not participating in it if they don't
                                > want
                                > > > > to.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I'll go to that site. My father is very Christian, and sees
                                > Buddhism
                                > > > > as a phiosophy not a religion and has much respect of it, me, I
                                > don't
                                > > > > see it as a philosophy or a religion, I see it as a practice.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Peace,
                                > > > > Kraig
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...>
                                > wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > You and I seem to share the same viewpoints on this and we've
                                > taken
                                > > > > > some time, dialog and energy into this group.
                                > > > > > I wonder ho
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > wever, (and this may be paranoia) if it might be best for
                                > > > > > the group if we concentrate more on the topic/theme of this
                                > group. I
                                > > > > > am very interested in the book of Thomas and other things we've
                                > > > > > brought up.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Kraig, would you like me to start a group on that topic? or we
                                > could
                                > > > > > utilize this site I have just recently built:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > http://www.geocities.com/kal_el1965
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > We could collaborate there.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > I'm just thinking that for the benefit of Buddhism in this forum
                                > > > > > alone, I might be able to concentrate mostly on the Buddhist
                                > > > > dialog.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > -Scott
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                                > > > > > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > How did Buddhism avoid human distortion?
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Tell me more about Christ and Buddha meeting? Christ is
                                > mentioned
                                > > > > in
                                > > > > > > the Bhagavadgita (sp?). Though, what Buddha around at that
                                time?
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > A Buddhist teacher introduced me to the Gospel of Thomas.
                                There
                                > > > > are
                                > > > > > > other gospels and books of both testaments that were
                                > > > > not "canonized.
                                > > > > > > I'm forces to ask, why not? The Gospel of Thomas is one such
                                > > > > gospel.
                                > > > > > > You won't find it if many churches, if any.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Peace,
                                > > > > > > Kraig
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott"
                                <kal_el1965@y...>
                                > > > > wrote:
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Surely, I can see how it would be hard to understand why
                                > > > > Christians
                                > > > > > > > would call themselves Buddhists. Honestly, when I put
                                > myself in
                                > > > > your
                                > > > > > > > shoes, I think it could be interpreted in many ways. It
                                seems
                                > > > > to me
                                > > > > > > > that there can sometimes be a reluctance at times, to
                                > > > > accept "one or
                                > > > > > > > the other", either from convenience, laziness, or a selfish
                                > > > > > > > convenience. Some will believe that Buddha started
                                something
                                > > > > that
                                > > > > > > > Christ finished and that they both bring us together, and
                                > some
                                > > > > will
                                > > > > > > > slowly let go of Christian beliefs, take the one seat
                                and work
                                > > > > > > > diligently toward enlightenment. That is all very sweet,
                                > > > > honestly.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > In my mind, one does not negate the other. There is a very
                                > well
                                > > > > liked
                                > > > > > > > Buddhist Monk that had commented on how he believed that
                                > Jesus
                                > > > > and
                                > > > > > > > Buddha have met, are meeting now and will meet forever,
                                also
                                > > > > that they
                                > > > > > > > were brothers and they were sisters. As well, in my mind
                                I do
                                > > > > see them
                                > > > > > > > lean toward another in so many comparisons.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Now correct me if I'm wrong [I'm back from a very long
                                > break],
                                > > > > but do
                                > > > > > > > not Buddhists believe in somewhat of a higher power? Some
                                > > > > energy that
                                > > > > > > > has a name? When I was purely Christian, God looked like
                                > > > > Charlton
                                > > > > > > > Hestin in The Ten Commandments. Now its definition blends
                                > with
                                > > > > an
                                > > > > > > > energy some may see as Nirvana, or eternal laws.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > If you find a belief in any "kind of God" difficult,
                                > > > > that "kind" may
                                > > > > > > > be percieved in many angles, many real points of view.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > It seems like a benefit of Buddhism is to know that,
                                although
                                > > > > there
                                > > > > > > > are some divisions in the religion, it appears that most
                                > > > > everything as
                                > > > > > > > far as historical information is still true and
                                accounted for.
                                > > > > > > > Cristianity, on the other hand has been horribly distorted,
                                > > > > > > > fragmented, misinterpreted, over-inflated, hidden,
                                > > > > overglorified in
                                > > > > > > > cinema and found guilty of many man-made sufferings in its
                                > own
                                > > > > name.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Many Christians believe that there are some serious
                                > pockets, or
                                > > > > holes
                                > > > > > > > in the informational continuum about Christ. Tne belief is
                                > that
                                > > > > > > > Buddha fills in those pockets, those holes. Jesus'complete
                                > > > > dialog from
                                > > > > > > > the entire New Testament is only two hours. There's little
                                > or no
                                > > > > > > > account for over half of his life. Many believe he
                                > traveled to
                                > > > > India
                                > > > > > > > and found Buddha. I doubt that the vatican would enjoy that
                                > > > > idea.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > To share the thought in my mind and heart, is to say that
                                > they
                                > > > > dwell
                                > > > > > > > together in harmony, perfectly true, each of them, at all
                                > > > > times. It is
                                > > > > > > > no longer important for me to think or say anything
                                > divisive. I
                                > > > > fail
                                > > > > > > > to see any differences in so many ways. I cast away
                                different
                                > > > > > > > perceptions. hope I can keep that attitude.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Thank you very much Diane. I'm glad to meet you.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > -Scott
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "flora_connemara"
                                > > > > > > > <peter.brown5@b...> wrote:
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Hi all, I am finding it difficult to understand where
                                > people
                                > > > > who
                                > > > > > are
                                > > > > > > > > calling themselves Buddhists are also calling themselves
                                > > > > > Christians.
                                > > > > > > > > Doesn't one negate the other, Buddhists do not believe
                                > in a
                                > > > > higher
                                > > > > > > > > power or 'god' but Christians do? I was drawn to Buddhism
                                > > > > > because of
                                > > > > > > > > the way of life it espouses but also for the lack of a
                                > god, I
                                > > > > find
                                > > > > > > > > belief in a god very difficult to fathom.
                                > > > > > > > > from Diane in Australia
                              • flora_connemara
                                I do not dislike or find Christianity distasteful, I just have no interest in it. I just could not understand how those who believe in a God could then
                                Message 15 of 30 , Mar 4, 2005
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                                  I do not dislike or find Christianity distasteful, I just have no
                                  interest in it. I just could not understand how those who believe in
                                  a 'God' could then consider themselves Buddhist. I am not against a
                                  comparison of Buddhism and Christianity but that was not my original
                                  point.
                                  from Diane
                                  Ken, I would love to go to the film screening but it is about 10
                                  hours from where I live.


                                  --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                                  <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I guess I can see it. People usually gravite to the opposite or
                                  > percieved opposite of what they dislike or find distasteful.
                                  > Christianity or the Christianity that has been so pervasive in
                                  > Christianity is judgemental and absolutist thus pushing people to
                                  it's
                                  > opposite extreme, and take an attitude of extreme opposition to and
                                  > hostility towards it.
                                  >
                                  > Ironically, the Christian religion I most often participate in has
                                  > nore in common with Buddhism than any of mainline Christianity.
                                  >
                                  > Peace,
                                  >
                                  > Kraig
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Kindnsruls@aol.com
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Mar 5, 2005
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                                    << don't know why so many people here seem to be getting the attitude
                                    about some of the messages about, Christianity, this, that, and the
                                    other thing, as they relate to Buddhism. Maybe they somehow feel they
                                    are being forced to participate in all threads. I detect a hint of
                                    born again Buddhism.
                                    This attitude actually seems counter to Buddhism.>>
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                    It isn't that there is an attitude about Christianity......this is simply Buddhism.
                                     
                                    For some reason it appears that some who come here have confused Buddhism perhaps with some New Age kind of religion where one can change the Teaching to accommodate one's own view.
                                     
                                    There is absolutely nothing "wrong" in a being believing what they choose to believe.
                                    There is absolutely nothing wrong in taking from Buddha's Teachings what is applicable to one's own life, embracing that, and leaving the rest of Buddhist View/Path/Teaching for the more serious practitioner.
                                     
                                    There are some very real problems however with taking the Holy Dharma, changing it to fit one's own views, and then expounding it to others as the teaching of Buddha.
                                    Without even considering the factors of an immense disrespect, or the karmic implications involved in doing so, this simply makes no sense in even relative/conventional terms!
                                     
                                    If I decide I would like to dabble in painting, and then first begin to learn to sketch an outline in charcoal......and then stop at that point because I find that my own personal preference is for charcoal and the various beautiful shadings I can create with that charcoal....I am completely free to do so...this is fine......however, I must then recognize/distinguish what I have created as "charcoal sketch" rather than "painting."
                                     
                                    It would make no sense to present a charcoal sketch as a painting!
                                    We would consider a person who presented us with a charcoal sketch and called it, in fact saw it themselves as a "painting" somewhat delusory wouldn't we?
                                    There is no difference between saying that it is OK for one to be a Buddhist and believe in an all powerful creator god, then there is to say that it is OK for one to be a Christian and NOT believe in an all powerful creator god!
                                     
                                    This  makes no sense!
                                     
                                    How could one believe that they held Christian belief without belief in Christ/god?
                                    Would one go to a Christian church and tell them arrogantly that one "approves" of their religion....however just not that part about god.... and then expect those Christians to say that this is OK one does not need belief in god as a Christian?
                                     
                                    One can hold and believe and live in certain Christian views and outlooks and modes of being/behaving without holding belief in an all powerful creator god, just as one can take and use whatever teachings of the Buddha that they care to in their own life's path....this is fine...one cannot however go to a Christian church and preach "no god" without expectation of running into some disagreement and being corrected.....and though one may assume some Christian behaviors, and find solace in some Christian teachings one cannot fully appreciate and experience the Christian path unless one holds belief in the Christian god which is the very basis of that path!
                                     
                                    Buddhism is the same.
                                     
                                    All are free to experience and take into their lives any of Buddha's teachings which "speak" to them.....however, one is not a Buddhist, or practicing Buddhism if one is holding a belief in an all powerful creator god....it is simply not possible. One is simply a person who has been touched by some of Buddha's teachings and taken them to heart....which is wonderful! 
                                    But.....to claim that Buddha himself taught belief in an all powerful creator god because that is what one chooses personally to believe is only one's own personal system of belief and is not the teaching of the Buddha.
                                     
                                    This distinction must be made.
                                     
                                    You may or may not believe this.....as you may or may not believe anything else....it is as you wish....but the fact remains that what distinguishes Buddhism from the other world religions is that there is no belief in an all powerful creator god, and that there is no belief in a continuous soul. If this makes one uncomfortable than one is free to continue belief in whatever one chooses..no one will be offended by this....one is not free (without incurring negative karma) however to change the Buddha's teachings to fit one's own view and then call it "Buddhism" and speak with disdain against those who follow actual Buddhist path anymore than one is free (without incurring negative karma) to remove the belief in an all powerful creator god and christ because it suits one's own opinions, and then call what one subscribes to, and expounds to others Christianity while holding and speaking in disdain against those Christians who do believe in god/christ.
                                    The result of this kind of thinking is hybrid, personal belief...and again...no one is saying that anyone is not free to hold such belief....only that this is not Buddhist belief, nor the teaching of the Buddha, and should not be represented to others as such.
                                     
                                     
                                    Joyce


                                    Both the enlightened, and deluded world do not have even an atom of inherent existence,
                                    Yet cause and effect are non-fraudulent in their interdependent arising.
                                    Seeing compatibility between cause and effect lacking true existence,
                                    yet functioning non-fraudulently on the illusory level is the perfect view of Arya Nagarjuna,
                                    May I be blessed by gurus to come to understand this.

                                    The translation of Guru Puja verse (108)
                                  • Ken/
                                    Joyce, I do not disagree with what you say, but, sometimes when new people are looking at Buddhism to see if it is something they can embrace, they are not
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Mar 5, 2005
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                                      Joyce, I do not disagree with what you say, but,
                                      sometimes when new people are looking at Buddhism to
                                      see if it is something they can embrace, they are not
                                      ready to give up many attachments of their old
                                      religions. As they move into Buddhism, though, they
                                      will do so, or they will leave, it is their path.

                                      All my experience and teachings point to the
                                      non-existance of a creator/God (the reason, I have
                                      mentioned in a recent post). But that too is,
                                      actually, irrelevant in the long run. What is
                                      important is the path and the practice. This has
                                      nothing to do with a creator/God. If you take Buddhist
                                      philosophy at face value, or if you go deeper, it only
                                      shows that we are responsible for our own actions and
                                      only we are going reap the rewards (or pay the price).
                                      IMHO

                                      Susan, this is my last post on this subject. It's just
                                      hard not to jump in, sometimes.
                                      :-)

                                      peace,
                                      Ken/


                                      --- Kindnsruls@... wrote:

                                      > << don't know why so many people here seem to be
                                      > getting the attitude
                                      > about some of the messages about, Christianity,
                                      > this, that, and the
                                      > other thing, as they relate to Buddhism. Maybe they
                                      > somehow feel they
                                      > are being forced to participate in all threads. I
                                      > detect a hint of
                                      > born again Buddhism.
                                      > This attitude actually seems counter to Buddhism.>>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > It isn't that there is an attitude about
                                      > Christianity......this is simply
                                      > Buddhism.
                                      >
                                      > For some reason it appears that some who come here
                                      > have confused Buddhism
                                      > perhaps with some New Age kind of religion where one
                                      > can change the Teaching to
                                      > accommodate one's own view.
                                      >
                                      > There is absolutely nothing "wrong" in a being
                                      > believing what they choose to
                                      > believe.
                                      > There is absolutely nothing wrong in taking from
                                      > Buddha's Teachings what is
                                      > applicable to one's own life, embracing that, and
                                      > leaving the rest of
                                      > Buddhist View/Path/Teaching for the more serious
                                      > practitioner.
                                      >
                                      > There are some very real problems however with
                                      > taking the Holy Dharma,
                                      > changing it to fit one's own views, and then
                                      > expounding it to others as the
                                      > teaching of Buddha.
                                      > Without even considering the factors of an immense
                                      > disrespect, or the karmic
                                      > implications involved in doing so, this simply makes
                                      > no sense in even
                                      > relative/conventional terms!
                                      >
                                      > If I decide I would like to dabble in painting, and
                                      > then first begin to
                                      > learn to sketch an outline in charcoal......and then
                                      > stop at that point because I
                                      > find that my own personal preference is for charcoal
                                      > and the various
                                      > beautiful shadings I can create with that
                                      > charcoal....I am completely free to do
                                      > so...this is fine......however, I must then
                                      > recognize/distinguish what I have
                                      > created as "charcoal sketch" rather than "painting."
                                      >
                                      > It would make no sense to present a charcoal sketch
                                      > as a painting!
                                      > We would consider a person who presented us with a
                                      > charcoal sketch and
                                      > called it, in fact saw it themselves as a "painting"
                                      > somewhat delusory wouldn't we?
                                      >
                                      > There is no difference between saying that it is OK
                                      > for one to be a Buddhist
                                      > and believe in an all powerful creator god, then
                                      > there is to say that it is
                                      > OK for one to be a Christian and NOT believe in an
                                      > all powerful creator god!
                                      >
                                      > This makes no sense!
                                      >
                                      > How could one believe that they held Christian
                                      > belief without belief in
                                      > Christ/god?
                                      > Would one go to a Christian church and tell them
                                      > arrogantly that one
                                      > "approves" of their religion....however just not
                                      > that part about god.... and then
                                      > expect those Christians to say that this is OK one
                                      > does not need belief in god
                                      > as a Christian?
                                      >
                                      > One can hold and believe and live in certain
                                      > Christian views and outlooks
                                      > and modes of being/behaving without holding belief
                                      > in an all powerful creator
                                      > god, just as one can take and use whatever teachings
                                      > of the Buddha that they
                                      > care to in their own life's path....this is
                                      > fine...one cannot however go to a
                                      > Christian church and preach "no god" without
                                      > expectation of running into some
                                      > disagreement and being corrected.....and though one
                                      > may assume some
                                      > Christian behaviors, and find solace in some
                                      > Christian teachings one cannot fully
                                      > appreciate and experience the Christian path unless
                                      > one holds belief in the
                                      > Christian god which is the very basis of that path!
                                      >
                                      > Buddhism is the same.
                                      >
                                      > All are free to experience and take into their lives
                                      > any of Buddha's
                                      > teachings which "speak" to them.....however, one is
                                      > not a Buddhist, or practicing
                                      > Buddhism if one is holding a belief in an all
                                      > powerful creator god....it is
                                      > simply not possible. One is simply a person who has
                                      > been touched by some of
                                      > Buddha's teachings and taken them to heart....which
                                      > is wonderful!
                                      > But.....to claim that Buddha himself taught belief
                                      > in an all powerful
                                      > creator god because that is what one chooses
                                      > personally to believe is only one's
                                      > own personal system of belief and is not the
                                      > teaching of the Buddha.
                                      >
                                      > This distinction must be made.
                                      >
                                      > You may or may not believe this.....as you may or
                                      > may not believe anything
                                      > else....it is as you wish....but the fact remains
                                      > that what distinguishes
                                      > Buddhism from the other world religions is that
                                      > there is no belief in an all
                                      > powerful creator god, and that there is no belief in
                                      > a continuous soul. If this
                                      > makes one uncomfortable than one is free to continue
                                      > belief in whatever one
                                      > chooses..no one will be offended by this....one is
                                      > not free (without incurring
                                      > negative karma) however to change the Buddha's
                                      > teachings to fit one's own
                                      > view and then call it "Buddhism" and speak with
                                      > disdain against those who follow
                                      > actual Buddhist path anymore than one is free
                                      > (without incurring negative
                                      > karma) to remove the belief in an all powerful
                                      > creator god and christ because
                                      > it suits one's own opinions, and then call what one
                                      > subscribes to, and
                                      > expounds to others Christianity while holding and
                                      > speaking in disdain against those
                                      > Christians who do believe in god/christ.
                                      >
                                      > The result of this kind of thinking is hybrid,
                                      > personal belief...and
                                      > again...no one is saying that anyone is not free to
                                      > hold such belief....only that
                                      > this is not Buddhist belief, nor the teaching of the
                                      > Buddha, and should not be
                                      > represented to others as such.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Joyce
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Both the enlightened, and deluded world do not have
                                      > even an atom of inherent
                                      > existence,
                                      > Yet cause and effect are non-fraudulent in their
                                      > interdependent arising.
                                      > Seeing compatibility between cause and effect
                                      > lacking true existence,
                                      > yet functioning non-fraudulently on the illusory
                                      > level is the perfect view
                                      > of Arya Nagarjuna,
                                      > May I be blessed by gurus to come to understand
                                      > this.
                                      >
                                      > The translation of Guru Puja verse (108)
                                      >
                                      >





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                                    • Kraig Mottar
                                      Actually, I rarely compare Christianity and Buddhism, I more often compare Buddha or Buddhism and Christ. I actually prefere Christ to Christianity. As I see
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Mar 5, 2005
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                                        Actually, I rarely compare Christianity and Buddhism, I more often
                                        compare Buddha or Buddhism and Christ. I actually prefere Christ to
                                        Christianity.

                                        As I see it, whether or not one believes in God, is not an issue of
                                        Buddhism.

                                        I have seen the word "God" in books on Zen Buddhism, D.T. Suzuki's
                                        book for instance.

                                        It does seem like you're trying to impose what or who can claim to be
                                        Buddhist, like some Christians for instance, usually the typical
                                        born-again thype, impose their judgement on who or what can claim to
                                        be "Christian".

                                        Peace,
                                        Kraig


                                        --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "flora_connemara"
                                        <peter.brown5@b...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I do not dislike or find Christianity distasteful, I just have no
                                        > interest in it. I just could not understand how those who believe in
                                        > a 'God' could then consider themselves Buddhist. I am not against a
                                        > comparison of Buddhism and Christianity but that was not my original
                                        > point.
                                        > from Diane
                                        > Ken, I would love to go to the film screening but it is about 10
                                        > hours from where I live.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                                        > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > I guess I can see it. People usually gravite to the opposite or
                                        > > percieved opposite of what they dislike or find distasteful.
                                        > > Christianity or the Christianity that has been so pervasive in
                                        > > Christianity is judgemental and absolutist thus pushing people to
                                        > it's
                                        > > opposite extreme, and take an attitude of extreme opposition to and
                                        > > hostility towards it.
                                        > >
                                        > > Ironically, the Christian religion I most often participate in has
                                        > > nore in common with Buddhism than any of mainline Christianity.
                                        > >
                                        > > Peace,
                                        > >
                                        > > Kraig
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                      • Kraig Mottar
                                        Also, forgot to ask, what movie are you referring to?
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Mar 5, 2005
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                                          Also, forgot to ask, what movie are you referring to?

                                          --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "flora_connemara"
                                          <peter.brown5@b...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I do not dislike or find Christianity distasteful, I just have no
                                          > interest in it. I just could not understand how those who believe in
                                          > a 'God' could then consider themselves Buddhist. I am not against a
                                          > comparison of Buddhism and Christianity but that was not my original
                                          > point.
                                          > from Diane
                                          > Ken, I would love to go to the film screening but it is about 10
                                          > hours from where I live.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                                          > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > I guess I can see it. People usually gravite to the opposite or
                                          > > percieved opposite of what they dislike or find distasteful.
                                          > > Christianity or the Christianity that has been so pervasive in
                                          > > Christianity is judgemental and absolutist thus pushing people to
                                          > it's
                                          > > opposite extreme, and take an attitude of extreme opposition to and
                                          > > hostility towards it.
                                          > >
                                          > > Ironically, the Christian religion I most often participate in has
                                          > > nore in common with Buddhism than any of mainline Christianity.
                                          > >
                                          > > Peace,
                                          > >
                                          > > Kraig
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                        • Kraig Mottar
                                          I was comparing Buddhism to Christ not Buddhism and God. There are Christians who don t believe in God. Checkout Atheists for Christ, I think they have a
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Mar 5, 2005
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                                            I was comparing Buddhism to Christ not Buddhism and God.
                                            There are Christians who don't believe in God. Checkout Atheists for
                                            Christ, I think they have a website.
                                            There are Christians who aren't mythological Christians. Who subscribe
                                            to the teaching but don't neccessarily buy the mythology.

                                            Peace,
                                            Kraig

                                            --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, Kindnsruls@a... wrote:
                                            > << don't know why so many people here seem to be getting the attitude
                                            > about some of the messages about, Christianity, this, that, and the
                                            > other thing, as they relate to Buddhism. Maybe they somehow feel they
                                            > are being forced to participate in all threads. I detect a hint of
                                            > born again Buddhism.
                                            > This attitude actually seems counter to Buddhism.>>
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > It isn't that there is an attitude about Christianity......this is
                                            simply
                                            > Buddhism.
                                            >
                                            > For some reason it appears that some who come here have confused
                                            Buddhism
                                            > perhaps with some New Age kind of religion where one can change the
                                            Teaching to
                                            > accommodate one's own view.
                                            >
                                            > There is absolutely nothing "wrong" in a being believing what they
                                            choose to
                                            > believe.
                                            > There is absolutely nothing wrong in taking from Buddha's Teachings
                                            what is
                                            > applicable to one's own life, embracing that, and leaving the rest of
                                            > Buddhist View/Path/Teaching for the more serious practitioner.
                                            >
                                            > There are some very real problems however with taking the Holy Dharma,
                                            > changing it to fit one's own views, and then expounding it to others
                                            as the
                                            > teaching of Buddha.
                                            > Without even considering the factors of an immense disrespect, or
                                            the karmic
                                            > implications involved in doing so, this simply makes no sense in even
                                            > relative/conventional terms!
                                            >
                                            > If I decide I would like to dabble in painting, and then first begin
                                            to
                                            > learn to sketch an outline in charcoal......and then stop at that
                                            point because I
                                            > find that my own personal preference is for charcoal and the various
                                            > beautiful shadings I can create with that charcoal....I am
                                            completely free to do
                                            > so...this is fine......however, I must then recognize/distinguish
                                            what I have
                                            > created as "charcoal sketch" rather than "painting."
                                            >
                                            > It would make no sense to present a charcoal sketch as a painting!
                                            > We would consider a person who presented us with a charcoal sketch and
                                            > called it, in fact saw it themselves as a "painting" somewhat
                                            delusory wouldn't we?
                                            >
                                            > There is no difference between saying that it is OK for one to be a
                                            Buddhist
                                            > and believe in an all powerful creator god, then there is to say
                                            that it is
                                            > OK for one to be a Christian and NOT believe in an all powerful
                                            creator god!
                                            >
                                            > This makes no sense!
                                            >
                                            > How could one believe that they held Christian belief without belief
                                            in
                                            > Christ/god?
                                            > Would one go to a Christian church and tell them arrogantly that one
                                            > "approves" of their religion....however just not that part about
                                            god.... and then
                                            > expect those Christians to say that this is OK one does not need
                                            belief in god
                                            > as a Christian?
                                            >
                                            > One can hold and believe and live in certain Christian views and
                                            outlooks
                                            > and modes of being/behaving without holding belief in an all
                                            powerful creator
                                            > god, just as one can take and use whatever teachings of the Buddha
                                            that they
                                            > care to in their own life's path....this is fine...one cannot
                                            however go to a
                                            > Christian church and preach "no god" without expectation of running
                                            into some
                                            > disagreement and being corrected.....and though one may assume some
                                            > Christian behaviors, and find solace in some Christian teachings one
                                            cannot fully
                                            > appreciate and experience the Christian path unless one holds belief
                                            in the
                                            > Christian god which is the very basis of that path!
                                            >
                                            > Buddhism is the same.
                                            >
                                            > All are free to experience and take into their lives any of Buddha's
                                            > teachings which "speak" to them.....however, one is not a Buddhist,
                                            or practicing
                                            > Buddhism if one is holding a belief in an all powerful creator
                                            god....it is
                                            > simply not possible. One is simply a person who has been touched by
                                            some of
                                            > Buddha's teachings and taken them to heart....which is wonderful!
                                            > But.....to claim that Buddha himself taught belief in an all powerful
                                            > creator god because that is what one chooses personally to believe
                                            is only one's
                                            > own personal system of belief and is not the teaching of the Buddha.
                                            >
                                            > This distinction must be made.
                                            >
                                            > You may or may not believe this.....as you may or may not believe
                                            anything
                                            > else....it is as you wish....but the fact remains that what
                                            distinguishes
                                            > Buddhism from the other world religions is that there is no belief
                                            in an all
                                            > powerful creator god, and that there is no belief in a continuous
                                            soul. If this
                                            > makes one uncomfortable than one is free to continue belief in
                                            whatever one
                                            > chooses..no one will be offended by this....one is not free
                                            (without incurring
                                            > negative karma) however to change the Buddha's teachings to fit
                                            one's own
                                            > view and then call it "Buddhism" and speak with disdain against
                                            those who follow
                                            > actual Buddhist path anymore than one is free (without incurring
                                            negative
                                            > karma) to remove the belief in an all powerful creator god and
                                            christ because
                                            > it suits one's own opinions, and then call what one subscribes to, and
                                            > expounds to others Christianity while holding and speaking in
                                            disdain against those
                                            > Christians who do believe in god/christ.
                                            >
                                            > The result of this kind of thinking is hybrid, personal belief...and
                                            > again...no one is saying that anyone is not free to hold such
                                            belief....only that
                                            > this is not Buddhist belief, nor the teaching of the Buddha, and
                                            should not be
                                            > represented to others as such.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Joyce
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Both the enlightened, and deluded world do not have even an atom of
                                            inherent
                                            > existence,
                                            > Yet cause and effect are non-fraudulent in their interdependent
                                            arising.
                                            > Seeing compatibility between cause and effect lacking true existence,
                                            > yet functioning non-fraudulently on the illusory level is the
                                            perfect view
                                            > of Arya Nagarjuna,
                                            > May I be blessed by gurus to come to understand this.
                                            >
                                            > The translation of Guru Puja verse (108)
                                          • Shanna
                                            You know, Kraig, I agree with you. From the books I have read, and trust me I know I don t know everything, so I could always be mistaken, but Buddhism is
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Mar 5, 2005
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                                              You know, Kraig, I agree with you. From the books I have read, and
                                              trust me I know I don't know everything, so I could always be
                                              mistaken, but Buddhism is tolerant of everything, everyone, every
                                              religion. At least, that's what I thought it was supposed to be. I
                                              understand that for some people it can be hard to discuss Christianity
                                              because of bad experiences they've had with it, and I include myself
                                              in that group because I have had bad experiences and have had to work
                                              hard to work hard to get to a point where I can discuss Christianity
                                              with out my baggage. I can talk about Christianity now and I don't
                                              have the same attitude I used to have when I talk about it. I don't
                                              like it or dislike it, it just is. I accept it when I feel negative
                                              thoughts toward it, but I just let them go because I know those
                                              thoughts are based on my own experiences, on how my heart feels, not
                                              on what it really is. Christianity is actually good because there are
                                              so many people it helps. My mother in law is one of those people. She
                                              has changed so much because of her faith in God. And she's a wonderful
                                              person for it. Yes there are many people who used that religion to
                                              further their own means, but there are many others who are truly
                                              compassionate and truly, truly believe in God and have complete faith
                                              in Him. My mother in law is one of those people (that's why when she
                                              says I'm praying for you baby, I say thank you and smile).

                                              But as Buddhists we should be tolerant of all people and all religions
                                              and not look down upon them for their faith in a God/or Gods. We
                                              should respect them and their beliefs, as Thich Nhat Hanh does. A good
                                              book to read would be "Living Buddha, Living Christ" I haven't
                                              finished it yet, but it is a very good book to read to give you a
                                              better understanding of the kind of loving tolerance I am talking about.

                                              As I was saying, I think the attitude Kraig was refering to here

                                              many people here seem to be getting the attitude
                                              > about some of the messages about, Christianity, this, that, and the
                                              > other thing, as they relate to Buddhism.

                                              I think this attitude we have should be worked on and we should learn
                                              to let go of it.

                                              Peace go with you all,
                                              Shanna









                                              --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > As a Christian myself, I'm trying to get the "Christian" stuff OUT of
                                              > this group.
                                              > I highly respect your opinion and I agree with you.
                                              > At this point, I think we've got the point accross and we may be
                                              > better off dropping the subject.
                                              >
                                              > So let's drop it and get on with the Buddha and the ways thereof.
                                              > Enough is surely enough.
                                              >
                                              > -Scott
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Daneille" <stonehenge612@y...>
                                              > wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > This is a group to talk about Buddhism. I have never in my whole
                                              > life been
                                              > > Christian, so I am not really interested in the parallels or
                                              > differences between
                                              > > Buddhism and Christianity. Even if I were, I wouldn't think that a
                                              > group that is
                                              > > for those learning about Buddhism is the appropriate forum to discuss
                                              > > Christianity.
                                              > >
                                              > > It has nothing to do with being "born again."
                                              > >
                                              > > Daneille
                                              > >
                                              > > > I don't know why so many people here seem to be getting the attitude
                                              > > > about some of the messages about, Christianity, this, that, and the
                                              > > > other thing, as they relate to Buddhism. Maybe they somehow feel
                                              they
                                              > > > are being forced to participate in all threads. I detect a hint of
                                              > > > born again Buddhism.
                                              > > > This attitude actually seems counter to Buddhism.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > I will check out that site.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Peace,
                                              > > > Kraig
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...>
                                              wrote:
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Right.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > I'll just use yahoo as a group and post messages and
                                              informatiom on
                                              > > > > that site based on the group. The group will help to form the
                                              site.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > From now on I will devote all dialog to Buddhism while I am here.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > If anyone would like to join my group, it is here:
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jesusandbuddha/
                                              > > > > I'll tweak it out later this weekend.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Thank you.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > -Scott
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                                              > > > > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > I'm ok with that. I have no leadership skills to start or
                                              > maintain
                                              > > > > > such a group, I'm just a seeker, and seekers are clueless.
                                              > > > > > Though, I don't see that this dicussion is being disruptive
                                              here,
                                              > > > > > people have the option of not participating in it if they
                                              > don't want
                                              > > > > > to.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > I'll go to that site. My father is very Christian, and sees
                                              > Buddhism
                                              > > > > > as a phiosophy not a religion and has much respect of it, me,
                                              > I don't
                                              > > > > > see it as a philosophy or a religion, I see it as a practice.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Peace,
                                              > > > > > Kraig
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...>
                                              > > wrote:
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > You and I seem to share the same viewpoints on this and
                                              > we've taken
                                              > > > > > > some time, dialog and energy into this group.
                                              > > > > > > I wonder ho
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > wever, (and this may be paranoia) if it might be best for
                                              > > > > > > the group if we concentrate more on the topic/theme of this
                                              > group. I
                                              > > > > > > am very interested in the book of Thomas and other things
                                              we've
                                              > > > > > > brought up.
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > Kraig, would you like me to start a group on that topic? or
                                              > we could
                                              > > > > > > utilize this site I have just recently built:
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > http://www.geocities.com/kal_el1965
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > We could collaborate there.
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > I'm just thinking that for the benefit of Buddhism in this
                                              forum
                                              > > > > > > alone, I might be able to concentrate mostly on the Buddhist
                                              > > > > > dialog.
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > -Scott
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                                              > > > > > > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > How did Buddhism avoid human distortion?
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > Tell me more about Christ and Buddha meeting? Christ is
                                              > > mentioned
                                              > > > > > in
                                              > > > > > > > the Bhagavadgita (sp?). Though, what Buddha around at that
                                              > time?
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > A Buddhist teacher introduced me to the Gospel of Thomas.
                                              > There
                                              > > > > > are
                                              > > > > > > > other gospels and books of both testaments that were
                                              > > > > > not "canonized.
                                              > > > > > > > I'm forces to ask, why not? The Gospel of Thomas is one
                                              such
                                              > > > > > gospel.
                                              > > > > > > > You won't find it if many churches, if any.
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > Peace,
                                              > > > > > > > Kraig
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott"
                                              > <kal_el1965@y...>
                                              > > > > > wrote:
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > Surely, I can see how it would be hard to understand why
                                              > > > > > Christians
                                              > > > > > > > > would call themselves Buddhists. Honestly, when I put
                                              > myself in
                                              > > > > > your
                                              > > > > > > > > shoes, I think it could be interpreted in many ways. It
                                              > seems
                                              > > > > > to me
                                              > > > > > > > > that there can sometimes be a reluctance at times, to
                                              > > > > > accept "one or
                                              > > > > > > > > the other", either from convenience, laziness, or a
                                              selfish
                                              > > > > > > > > convenience. Some will believe that Buddha started
                                              > something
                                              > > > > > that
                                              > > > > > > > > Christ finished and that they both bring us together,
                                              > and some
                                              > > > > > will
                                              > > > > > > > > slowly let go of Christian beliefs, take the one seat
                                              > and work
                                              > > > > > > > > diligently toward enlightenment. That is all very sweet,
                                              > > > > > honestly.
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > In my mind, one does not negate the other. There is a
                                              > very well
                                              > > > > > liked
                                              > > > > > > > > Buddhist Monk that had commented on how he believed that
                                              > > Jesus
                                              > > > > > and
                                              > > > > > > > > Buddha have met, are meeting now and will meet forever,
                                              > also
                                              > > > > > that they
                                              > > > > > > > > were brothers and they were sisters. As well, in my mind
                                              > I do
                                              > > > > > see them
                                              > > > > > > > > lean toward another in so many comparisons.
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > Now correct me if I'm wrong [I'm back from a very long
                                              > break],
                                              > > > > > but do
                                              > > > > > > > > not Buddhists believe in somewhat of a higher power? Some
                                              > > > > > energy that
                                              > > > > > > > > has a name? When I was purely Christian, God looked like
                                              > > > > > Charlton
                                              > > > > > > > > Hestin in The Ten Commandments. Now its definition
                                              > blends with
                                              > > > > > an
                                              > > > > > > > > energy some may see as Nirvana, or eternal laws.
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > If you find a belief in any "kind of God" difficult,
                                              > > > > > that "kind" may
                                              > > > > > > > > be percieved in many angles, many real points of view.
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > It seems like a benefit of Buddhism is to know that,
                                              > although
                                              > > > > > there
                                              > > > > > > > > are some divisions in the religion, it appears that most
                                              > > > > > everything as
                                              > > > > > > > > far as historical information is still true and
                                              > accounted for.
                                              > > > > > > > > Cristianity, on the other hand has been horribly
                                              distorted,
                                              > > > > > > > > fragmented, misinterpreted, over-inflated, hidden,
                                              > > > > > overglorified in
                                              > > > > > > > > cinema and found guilty of many man-made sufferings in
                                              > its own
                                              > > > > > name.
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > Many Christians believe that there are some serious
                                              > pockets, or
                                              > > > > > holes
                                              > > > > > > > > in the informational continuum about Christ. Tne belief
                                              > is that
                                              > > > > > > > > Buddha fills in those pockets, those holes.
                                              Jesus'complete
                                              > > > > > dialog from
                                              > > > > > > > > the entire New Testament is only two hours. There's
                                              > little or no
                                              > > > > > > > > account for over half of his life. Many believe he
                                              > traveled to
                                              > > > > > India
                                              > > > > > > > > and found Buddha. I doubt that the vatican would enjoy
                                              that
                                              > > > > > idea.
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > To share the thought in my mind and heart, is to say
                                              > that they
                                              > > > > > dwell
                                              > > > > > > > > together in harmony, perfectly true, each of them, at all
                                              > > > > > times. It is
                                              > > > > > > > > no longer important for me to think or say anything
                                              > divisive. I
                                              > > > > > fail
                                              > > > > > > > > to see any differences in so many ways. I cast away
                                              > different
                                              > > > > > > > > perceptions. hope I can keep that attitude.
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > Thank you very much Diane. I'm glad to meet you.
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > -Scott
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "flora_connemara"
                                              > > > > > > > > <peter.brown5@b...> wrote:
                                              > > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > > Hi all, I am finding it difficult to understand where
                                              > people
                                              > > > > > who
                                              > > > > > > are
                                              > > > > > > > > > calling themselves Buddhists are also calling themselves
                                              > > > > > > Christians.
                                              > > > > > > > > > Doesn't one negate the other, Buddhists do not
                                              > believe in a
                                              > > > > > higher
                                              > > > > > > > > > power or 'god' but Christians do? I was drawn to
                                              Buddhism
                                              > > > > > > because of
                                              > > > > > > > > > the way of life it espouses but also for the lack of a
                                              > god, I
                                              > > > > > find
                                              > > > > > > > > > belief in a god very difficult to fathom.
                                              > > > > > > > > > from Diane in Australia
                                            • Kraig Mottar
                                              Though, I can understand the animosities toward Christianity . Much of Christianity is pushy, the typical so-called born-agains . They seem to have made a
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Mar 5, 2005
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                                                Though, I can understand the animosities toward "Christianity". Much
                                                of "Christianity" is pushy, the typical so-called "born-agains". They
                                                seem to have made a loud noise and commandeered the definition of
                                                Christianity. People want away from that when they flee it and are so
                                                shellshocked by the experience that its difficult for them to realize
                                                that there are more liberal, tollerant Christians. And they can't
                                                separate Christ from Christianity, there is a difference.

                                                My father is ok with my practice of Ch'an Buddhism. He percieves
                                                Buddhism to be a philosophy and not a religion, I say its neither, its
                                                a practice. Though it is an interesting discussion, of whether
                                                Buddhism is a religion or a philosoophy.

                                                Peace,
                                                Kraig

                                                --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Shanna" <skyebuddhist@y...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > You know, Kraig, I agree with you. From the books I have read, and
                                                > trust me I know I don't know everything, so I could always be
                                                > mistaken, but Buddhism is tolerant of everything, everyone, every
                                                > religion. At least, that's what I thought it was supposed to be. I
                                                > understand that for some people it can be hard to discuss Christianity
                                                > because of bad experiences they've had with it, and I include myself
                                                > in that group because I have had bad experiences and have had to work
                                                > hard to work hard to get to a point where I can discuss Christianity
                                                > with out my baggage. I can talk about Christianity now and I don't
                                                > have the same attitude I used to have when I talk about it. I don't
                                                > like it or dislike it, it just is. I accept it when I feel negative
                                                > thoughts toward it, but I just let them go because I know those
                                                > thoughts are based on my own experiences, on how my heart feels, not
                                                > on what it really is. Christianity is actually good because there are
                                                > so many people it helps. My mother in law is one of those people. She
                                                > has changed so much because of her faith in God. And she's a wonderful
                                                > person for it. Yes there are many people who used that religion to
                                                > further their own means, but there are many others who are truly
                                                > compassionate and truly, truly believe in God and have complete faith
                                                > in Him. My mother in law is one of those people (that's why when she
                                                > says I'm praying for you baby, I say thank you and smile).
                                                >
                                                > But as Buddhists we should be tolerant of all people and all religions
                                                > and not look down upon them for their faith in a God/or Gods. We
                                                > should respect them and their beliefs, as Thich Nhat Hanh does. A good
                                                > book to read would be "Living Buddha, Living Christ" I haven't
                                                > finished it yet, but it is a very good book to read to give you a
                                                > better understanding of the kind of loving tolerance I am talking about.
                                                >
                                                > As I was saying, I think the attitude Kraig was refering to here
                                                >
                                                > many people here seem to be getting the attitude
                                                > > about some of the messages about, Christianity, this, that, and the
                                                > > other thing, as they relate to Buddhism.
                                                >
                                                > I think this attitude we have should be worked on and we should learn
                                                > to let go of it.
                                                >
                                                > Peace go with you all,
                                                > Shanna
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > As a Christian myself, I'm trying to get the "Christian" stuff OUT of
                                                > > this group.
                                                > > I highly respect your opinion and I agree with you.
                                                > > At this point, I think we've got the point accross and we may be
                                                > > better off dropping the subject.
                                                > >
                                                > > So let's drop it and get on with the Buddha and the ways thereof.
                                                > > Enough is surely enough.
                                                > >
                                                > > -Scott
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Daneille" <stonehenge612@y...>
                                                > > wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > This is a group to talk about Buddhism. I have never in my whole
                                                > > life been
                                                > > > Christian, so I am not really interested in the parallels or
                                                > > differences between
                                                > > > Buddhism and Christianity. Even if I were, I wouldn't think that a
                                                > > group that is
                                                > > > for those learning about Buddhism is the appropriate forum to
                                                discuss
                                                > > > Christianity.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > It has nothing to do with being "born again."
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Daneille
                                                > > >
                                                > > > > I don't know why so many people here seem to be getting the
                                                attitude
                                                > > > > about some of the messages about, Christianity, this, that,
                                                and the
                                                > > > > other thing, as they relate to Buddhism. Maybe they somehow feel
                                                > they
                                                > > > > are being forced to participate in all threads. I detect a hint of
                                                > > > > born again Buddhism.
                                                > > > > This attitude actually seems counter to Buddhism.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > I will check out that site.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Peace,
                                                > > > > Kraig
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <kal_el1965@y...>
                                                > wrote:
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Right.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > I'll just use yahoo as a group and post messages and
                                                > informatiom on
                                                > > > > > that site based on the group. The group will help to form the
                                                > site.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > From now on I will devote all dialog to Buddhism while I am
                                                here.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > If anyone would like to join my group, it is here:
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jesusandbuddha/
                                                > > > > > I'll tweak it out later this weekend.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Thank you.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > -Scott
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                                                > > > > > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > I'm ok with that. I have no leadership skills to start or
                                                > > maintain
                                                > > > > > > such a group, I'm just a seeker, and seekers are clueless.
                                                > > > > > > Though, I don't see that this dicussion is being disruptive
                                                > here,
                                                > > > > > > people have the option of not participating in it if they
                                                > > don't want
                                                > > > > > > to.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > I'll go to that site. My father is very Christian, and sees
                                                > > Buddhism
                                                > > > > > > as a phiosophy not a religion and has much respect of it, me,
                                                > > I don't
                                                > > > > > > see it as a philosophy or a religion, I see it as a practice.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Peace,
                                                > > > > > > Kraig
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott"
                                                <kal_el1965@y...>
                                                > > > wrote:
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > You and I seem to share the same viewpoints on this and
                                                > > we've taken
                                                > > > > > > > some time, dialog and energy into this group.
                                                > > > > > > > I wonder ho
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > wever, (and this may be paranoia) if it might be best for
                                                > > > > > > > the group if we concentrate more on the topic/theme of this
                                                > > group. I
                                                > > > > > > > am very interested in the book of Thomas and other things
                                                > we've
                                                > > > > > > > brought up.
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > Kraig, would you like me to start a group on that topic? or
                                                > > we could
                                                > > > > > > > utilize this site I have just recently built:
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > http://www.geocities.com/kal_el1965
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > We could collaborate there.
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > I'm just thinking that for the benefit of Buddhism in this
                                                > forum
                                                > > > > > > > alone, I might be able to concentrate mostly on the
                                                Buddhist
                                                > > > > > > dialog.
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > -Scott
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                                                > > > > > > > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                                                > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > > How did Buddhism avoid human distortion?
                                                > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > > Tell me more about Christ and Buddha meeting? Christ is
                                                > > > mentioned
                                                > > > > > > in
                                                > > > > > > > > the Bhagavadgita (sp?). Though, what Buddha around at that
                                                > > time?
                                                > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > > A Buddhist teacher introduced me to the Gospel of Thomas.
                                                > > There
                                                > > > > > > are
                                                > > > > > > > > other gospels and books of both testaments that were
                                                > > > > > > not "canonized.
                                                > > > > > > > > I'm forces to ask, why not? The Gospel of Thomas is one
                                                > such
                                                > > > > > > gospel.
                                                > > > > > > > > You won't find it if many churches, if any.
                                                > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > > Peace,
                                                > > > > > > > > Kraig
                                                > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott"
                                                > > <kal_el1965@y...>
                                                > > > > > > wrote:
                                                > > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > > > Surely, I can see how it would be hard to understand
                                                why
                                                > > > > > > Christians
                                                > > > > > > > > > would call themselves Buddhists. Honestly, when I put
                                                > > myself in
                                                > > > > > > your
                                                > > > > > > > > > shoes, I think it could be interpreted in many ways. It
                                                > > seems
                                                > > > > > > to me
                                                > > > > > > > > > that there can sometimes be a reluctance at times, to
                                                > > > > > > accept "one or
                                                > > > > > > > > > the other", either from convenience, laziness, or a
                                                > selfish
                                                > > > > > > > > > convenience. Some will believe that Buddha started
                                                > > something
                                                > > > > > > that
                                                > > > > > > > > > Christ finished and that they both bring us together,
                                                > > and some
                                                > > > > > > will
                                                > > > > > > > > > slowly let go of Christian beliefs, take the one seat
                                                > > and work
                                                > > > > > > > > > diligently toward enlightenment. That is all very
                                                sweet,
                                                > > > > > > honestly.
                                                > > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > > > In my mind, one does not negate the other. There is a
                                                > > very well
                                                > > > > > > liked
                                                > > > > > > > > > Buddhist Monk that had commented on how he believed
                                                that
                                                > > > Jesus
                                                > > > > > > and
                                                > > > > > > > > > Buddha have met, are meeting now and will meet forever,
                                                > > also
                                                > > > > > > that they
                                                > > > > > > > > > were brothers and they were sisters. As well, in my mind
                                                > > I do
                                                > > > > > > see them
                                                > > > > > > > > > lean toward another in so many comparisons.
                                                > > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > > > Now correct me if I'm wrong [I'm back from a very long
                                                > > break],
                                                > > > > > > but do
                                                > > > > > > > > > not Buddhists believe in somewhat of a higher power?
                                                Some
                                                > > > > > > energy that
                                                > > > > > > > > > has a name? When I was purely Christian, God looked
                                                like
                                                > > > > > > Charlton
                                                > > > > > > > > > Hestin in The Ten Commandments. Now its definition
                                                > > blends with
                                                > > > > > > an
                                                > > > > > > > > > energy some may see as Nirvana, or eternal laws.
                                                > > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > > > If you find a belief in any "kind of God" difficult,
                                                > > > > > > that "kind" may
                                                > > > > > > > > > be percieved in many angles, many real points of view.
                                                > > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > > > It seems like a benefit of Buddhism is to know that,
                                                > > although
                                                > > > > > > there
                                                > > > > > > > > > are some divisions in the religion, it appears that
                                                most
                                                > > > > > > everything as
                                                > > > > > > > > > far as historical information is still true and
                                                > > accounted for.
                                                > > > > > > > > > Cristianity, on the other hand has been horribly
                                                > distorted,
                                                > > > > > > > > > fragmented, misinterpreted, over-inflated, hidden,
                                                > > > > > > overglorified in
                                                > > > > > > > > > cinema and found guilty of many man-made sufferings in
                                                > > its own
                                                > > > > > > name.
                                                > > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > > > Many Christians believe that there are some serious
                                                > > pockets, or
                                                > > > > > > holes
                                                > > > > > > > > > in the informational continuum about Christ. Tne belief
                                                > > is that
                                                > > > > > > > > > Buddha fills in those pockets, those holes.
                                                > Jesus'complete
                                                > > > > > > dialog from
                                                > > > > > > > > > the entire New Testament is only two hours. There's
                                                > > little or no
                                                > > > > > > > > > account for over half of his life. Many believe he
                                                > > traveled to
                                                > > > > > > India
                                                > > > > > > > > > and found Buddha. I doubt that the vatican would enjoy
                                                > that
                                                > > > > > > idea.
                                                > > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > > > To share the thought in my mind and heart, is to say
                                                > > that they
                                                > > > > > > dwell
                                                > > > > > > > > > together in harmony, perfectly true, each of them,
                                                at all
                                                > > > > > > times. It is
                                                > > > > > > > > > no longer important for me to think or say anything
                                                > > divisive. I
                                                > > > > > > fail
                                                > > > > > > > > > to see any differences in so many ways. I cast away
                                                > > different
                                                > > > > > > > > > perceptions. hope I can keep that attitude.
                                                > > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > > > Thank you very much Diane. I'm glad to meet you.
                                                > > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > > > -Scott
                                                > > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "flora_connemara"
                                                > > > > > > > > > <peter.brown5@b...> wrote:
                                                > > > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, I am finding it difficult to understand where
                                                > > people
                                                > > > > > > who
                                                > > > > > > > are
                                                > > > > > > > > > > calling themselves Buddhists are also calling
                                                themselves
                                                > > > > > > > Christians.
                                                > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't one negate the other, Buddhists do not
                                                > > believe in a
                                                > > > > > > higher
                                                > > > > > > > > > > power or 'god' but Christians do? I was drawn to
                                                > Buddhism
                                                > > > > > > > because of
                                                > > > > > > > > > > the way of life it espouses but also for the lack of a
                                                > > god, I
                                                > > > > > > find
                                                > > > > > > > > > > belief in a god very difficult to fathom.
                                                > > > > > > > > > > from Diane in Australia
                                              • flora_connemara
                                                You don t seem to be understanding what I mean. Joyce answered best in one of her last posts so I will leave it there. You do not know my history in Buddhism
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Mar 5, 2005
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                                                  You don't seem to be understanding what I mean. Joyce answered best
                                                  in one of her last posts so I will leave it there. You do not know
                                                  my history in Buddhism so I will not answer the 'born-again' issue.
                                                  The film was a screening of a Buddhist movie Ken mentioned was to be
                                                  shown in Australia.
                                                  from Diane


                                                  --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                                                  <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Actually, I rarely compare Christianity and Buddhism, I more often
                                                  > compare Buddha or Buddhism and Christ. I actually prefere Christ to
                                                  > Christianity.
                                                  >
                                                  > As I see it, whether or not one believes in God, is not an issue of
                                                  > Buddhism.
                                                  >
                                                  > I have seen the word "God" in books on Zen Buddhism, D.T. Suzuki's
                                                  > book for instance.
                                                  >
                                                  > It does seem like you're trying to impose what or who can claim to
                                                  be
                                                  > Buddhist, like some Christians for instance, usually the typical
                                                  > born-again thype, impose their judgement on who or what can claim to
                                                  > be "Christian".
                                                  >
                                                  > Peace,
                                                  > Kraig
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "flora_connemara"
                                                  > <peter.brown5@b...> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I do not dislike or find Christianity distasteful, I just have no
                                                  > > interest in it. I just could not understand how those who
                                                  believe in
                                                  > > a 'God' could then consider themselves Buddhist. I am not
                                                  against a
                                                  > > comparison of Buddhism and Christianity but that was not my
                                                  original
                                                  > > point.
                                                  > > from Diane
                                                  > > Ken, I would love to go to the film screening but it is about 10
                                                  > > hours from where I live.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                                                  > > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > I guess I can see it. People usually gravite to the opposite or
                                                  > > > percieved opposite of what they dislike or find distasteful.
                                                  > > > Christianity or the Christianity that has been so pervasive in
                                                  > > > Christianity is judgemental and absolutist thus pushing people
                                                  to
                                                  > > it's
                                                  > > > opposite extreme, and take an attitude of extreme opposition to
                                                  and
                                                  > > > hostility towards it.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Ironically, the Christian religion I most often participate in
                                                  has
                                                  > > > nore in common with Buddhism than any of mainline Christianity.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Peace,
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Kraig
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                • Kraig Mottar
                                                  And what was the movie called? The born-again comment is meant to infer the mistaken belief that one religion is the only way, and all others are totally
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Mar 6, 2005
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                                                    And what was the movie called?

                                                    The born-again comment is meant to infer the mistaken belief that one
                                                    religion is the only way, and all others are totally wrong. When the
                                                    truth is, there is no religion that know the complete 100% truth, the
                                                    can only aid an individual in discovering it.

                                                    Peace,
                                                    Kraig

                                                    --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "flora_connemara"
                                                    <peter.brown5@b...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > You don't seem to be understanding what I mean. Joyce answered best
                                                    > in one of her last posts so I will leave it there. You do not know
                                                    > my history in Buddhism so I will not answer the 'born-again' issue.
                                                    > The film was a screening of a Buddhist movie Ken mentioned was to be
                                                    > shown in Australia.
                                                    > from Diane
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                                                    > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Actually, I rarely compare Christianity and Buddhism, I more often
                                                    > > compare Buddha or Buddhism and Christ. I actually prefere Christ to
                                                    > > Christianity.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > As I see it, whether or not one believes in God, is not an issue of
                                                    > > Buddhism.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I have seen the word "God" in books on Zen Buddhism, D.T. Suzuki's
                                                    > > book for instance.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > It does seem like you're trying to impose what or who can claim to
                                                    > be
                                                    > > Buddhist, like some Christians for instance, usually the typical
                                                    > > born-again thype, impose their judgement on who or what can claim to
                                                    > > be "Christian".
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Peace,
                                                    > > Kraig
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "flora_connemara"
                                                    > > <peter.brown5@b...> wrote:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > I do not dislike or find Christianity distasteful, I just have no
                                                    > > > interest in it. I just could not understand how those who
                                                    > believe in
                                                    > > > a 'God' could then consider themselves Buddhist. I am not
                                                    > against a
                                                    > > > comparison of Buddhism and Christianity but that was not my
                                                    > original
                                                    > > > point.
                                                    > > > from Diane
                                                    > > > Ken, I would love to go to the film screening but it is about 10
                                                    > > > hours from where I live.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                                                    > > > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > I guess I can see it. People usually gravite to the opposite or
                                                    > > > > percieved opposite of what they dislike or find distasteful.
                                                    > > > > Christianity or the Christianity that has been so pervasive in
                                                    > > > > Christianity is judgemental and absolutist thus pushing people
                                                    > to
                                                    > > > it's
                                                    > > > > opposite extreme, and take an attitude of extreme opposition to
                                                    > and
                                                    > > > > hostility towards it.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Ironically, the Christian religion I most often participate in
                                                    > has
                                                    > > > > nore in common with Buddhism than any of mainline Christianity.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Peace,
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Kraig
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                  • fey_morgaina
                                                    MM, Well, I just want to say that I think Shanna and Kraig have good attitudes towards differing faiths. If Shanna is mistaken about Buddhism being tolerant,
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Mar 6, 2005
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                                                      MM,

                                                      Well, I just want to say that I think Shanna and Kraig have good
                                                      attitudes towards differing faiths. If Shanna is mistaken about
                                                      Buddhism being tolerant, then so would I be. It is part of the
                                                      reason, Buddhism is attractive. It seems though that the practice of
                                                      tolerance is MUCH harder for some than it is to talk about tolerance.
                                                      Tolerance is a two-way street. It should be received and given.
                                                      Isn't "right thought" and "right action" part of Buddhism?

                                                      BB,
                                                      Cassandrah

                                                      P.S. Shanna, you may have hard experiences but you have obviously
                                                      grown past it, become stronger, and learned from it. That is
                                                      commendable. Blessings to you!


                                                      --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Shanna" <skyebuddhist@y...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > You know, Kraig, I agree with you. From the books I have read, and
                                                      > trust me I know I don't know everything, so I could always be
                                                      > mistaken, but Buddhism is tolerant of everything, everyone, every
                                                      > religion. At least, that's what I thought it was supposed to be. I
                                                      > understand that for some people it can be hard to discuss Christianity
                                                      > because of bad experiences they've had with it, and I include myself
                                                      > in that group because I have had bad experiences and have had to work
                                                      > hard to work hard to get to a point where I can discuss Christianity
                                                      > with out my baggage. I can talk about Christianity now and I don't
                                                      > have the same attitude I used to have when I talk about it. I don't
                                                      > like it or dislike it, it just is. I accept it when I feel negative
                                                      > thoughts toward it, but I just let them go because I know those
                                                      > thoughts are based on my own experiences, on how my heart feels, not
                                                      > on what it really is. Christianity is actually good because there are
                                                      > so many people it helps. My mother in law is one of those people. She
                                                      > has changed so much because of her faith in God. And she's a wonderful
                                                      > person for it. Yes there are many people who used that religion to
                                                      > further their own means, but there are many others who are truly
                                                      > compassionate and truly, truly believe in God and have complete faith
                                                      > in Him. My mother in law is one of those people (that's why when she
                                                      > says I'm praying for you baby, I say thank you and smile).
                                                      >
                                                      > But as Buddhists we should be tolerant of all people and all religions
                                                      > and not look down upon them for their faith in a God/or Gods. We
                                                      > should respect them and their beliefs, as Thich Nhat Hanh does. A good
                                                      > book to read would be "Living Buddha, Living Christ" I haven't
                                                      > finished it yet, but it is a very good book to read to give you a
                                                      > better understanding of the kind of loving tolerance I am talking about.
                                                      >
                                                      > As I was saying, I think the attitude Kraig was refering to here
                                                      >
                                                      > many people here seem to be getting the attitude
                                                      > > about some of the messages about, Christianity, this, that, and the
                                                      > > other thing, as they relate to Buddhism.
                                                      >
                                                      > I think this attitude we have should be worked on and we should learn
                                                      > to let go of it.
                                                      >
                                                      > Peace go with you all,
                                                      > Shanna
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      <snip>
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