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  • Kraig Mottar
    What mountains do you live in? I m close to the mountains here actually. I live on hwy 38 which goes up to the San Bernardino mountains. I am 39 but I m
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 1, 2005
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      What mountains do you live in? I'm close to the mountains here
      actually. I live on hwy 38 which goes up to the San Bernardino mountains.
      I am 39 but I'm really younger than I am, and in a negative way.
      I was raised protestant Christian, I now attend a liberal Quaker
      meeting and sometimes a Ch'an Meditation class. You might actually be
      surprised by liberal Quakerism, it is quite similar to Buddhism
      actually. My parents are typical Christians, the churchy kind.

      I'm actually most intested in early Christianity before it was
      tainted by the so-called apostles. Christians for instance, believed
      in reincarnation.

      Some Buddhist are Christian and some Christians are Buddhist.

      I'm more intested in spirituality than religion. There is a
      difference. I don't have much use for any church beliefs.

      There is no religion that is 100% compatible with me.

      One of the thing about Buddhism that I like is that its not a religion.
      Or there is much debate whether or not it is a religion, most saying
      its not, but is instead a philosophy, I depart from both labels and so
      it's a practice.

      Kraig

      --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jim@u...> wrote:
      >
      > hi - i am age 42, raised roman catholic, practicing nothing for
      > quite a while as an adult - although retaining the "golden rule" and
      > trying to follow jesus by example rather then by going to church.
      > churches bore me. i have read books by dalai lama and thich nhat
      > hanh and am very impressed by what they say regarding buddhism.
      >
      > my own beliefs coincide more with buddhism then with christian
      > church beliefs. (such as - heaven (nirvana) is on earth not
      > something after you die, etc.)
      >
      > fortunately i do spend some time in los angeles, even though i live
      > a 2 hour drive away at altitude 7,000 feet in the southern
      > california mountains in a ski resort town. so when i am in los
      > angeles on some weekends - my wife can visit her family - while i
      > can practice buddhism.
      >
      > i have found one such location that is a Zen center, and another
      > that is a temple with roots in China, but has english speaking
      > classes, and is "humanistic buddhism". both have programs on sunday
      > mornings that would be useful to me.
      >
      > http://www.zencenter.com/
      >
      > http://www.hsilai.org/english/
      >
      > there are the two web sites. which one should i go to?
      >
      > (of course one answer is i could try both and see which one i like)
      >
      > Jim
    • Ken/
      ... I think you already answered your own question, Jim. As a follower of the path through Vajrayana Buddhism, I d recommend you try a Tibetan center, also.
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 2, 2005
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        >(of course one answer is i could try both and see
        >which one i like)

        I think you already answered your own question, Jim.
        As a follower of the path through Vajrayana Buddhism,
        I'd recommend you try a Tibetan center, also. I'm sure
        there are quite a few in greater L.A.
        Peace,
        Ken/

        --- Jim <jim@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > hi - i am age 42, raised roman catholic, practicing
        > nothing for
        > quite a while as an adult - although retaining the
        > "golden rule" and
        > trying to follow jesus by example rather then by
        > going to church.
        > churches bore me. i have read books by dalai lama
        > and thich nhat
        > hanh and am very impressed by what they say
        > regarding buddhism.
        >
        > my own beliefs coincide more with buddhism then with
        > christian
        > church beliefs. (such as - heaven (nirvana) is on
        > earth not
        > something after you die, etc.)
        >
        > fortunately i do spend some time in los angeles,
        > even though i live
        > a 2 hour drive away at altitude 7,000 feet in the
        > southern
        > california mountains in a ski resort town. so when
        > i am in los
        > angeles on some weekends - my wife can visit her
        > family - while i
        > can practice buddhism.
        >
        > i have found one such location that is a Zen center,
        > and another
        > that is a temple with roots in China, but has
        > english speaking
        > classes, and is "humanistic buddhism". both have
        > programs on sunday
        > mornings that would be useful to me.
        >
        > http://www.zencenter.com/
        >
        > http://www.hsilai.org/english/
        >
        > there are the two web sites. which one should i go
        > to?
        >
        > (of course one answer is i could try both and see
        > which one i like)
        >
        > Jim
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • Jim
        IMO anyone who says that buddhism is not a religion - is just threatened by buddhism. that they are already in another religion and saying that buddhism is
        Message 3 of 18 , Feb 2, 2005
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          IMO anyone who says that buddhism is not a religion - is just
          threatened by buddhism. that they are already in another religion
          and saying that buddhism is not a religion is a way for them to just
          put down another religion.

          it's a religion all right. thich nhat hanh says that jesus was a
          buddha. so its a way of being religious. the only thing close to
          it in christianity i would guess are monks, where prayer is pretty
          much the same thing as meditation and mindfulness.

          in buddhism you can be jesus-like. rather then merely "praising"
          jesus. i guess it depends on what your definition of religion is.

          i dont' think we'll find anyone praising buddha. instead i think
          we'll find buddhists are trying to be buddha-like.

          but i'm a novice - experts correct me if i am wrong.

          jim

          --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
          <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
          >
          > What mountains do you live in? I'm close to the mountains here
          > actually. I live on hwy 38 which goes up to the San Bernardino
          mountains.
          > I am 39 but I'm really younger than I am, and in a negative way.
          > I was raised protestant Christian, I now attend a liberal Quaker
          > meeting and sometimes a Ch'an Meditation class. You might actually
          be
          > surprised by liberal Quakerism, it is quite similar to Buddhism
          > actually. My parents are typical Christians, the churchy kind.
          >
          > I'm actually most intested in early Christianity before it was
          > tainted by the so-called apostles. Christians for instance,
          believed
          > in reincarnation.
          >
          > Some Buddhist are Christian and some Christians are Buddhist.
          >
          > I'm more intested in spirituality than religion. There is a
          > difference. I don't have much use for any church beliefs.
          >
          > There is no religion that is 100% compatible with me.
          >
          > One of the thing about Buddhism that I like is that its not a
          religion.
          > Or there is much debate whether or not it is a religion, most
          saying
          > its not, but is instead a philosophy, I depart from both labels
          and so
          > it's a practice.
          >
          > Kraig
          >
          > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jim@u...> wrote:
          > >
          > > hi - i am age 42, raised roman catholic, practicing nothing for
          > > quite a while as an adult - although retaining the "golden rule"
          and
          > > trying to follow jesus by example rather then by going to
          church.
          > > churches bore me. i have read books by dalai lama and thich
          nhat
          > > hanh and am very impressed by what they say regarding buddhism.
          > >
          > > my own beliefs coincide more with buddhism then with christian
          > > church beliefs. (such as - heaven (nirvana) is on earth not
          > > something after you die, etc.)
          > >
          > > fortunately i do spend some time in los angeles, even though i
          live
          > > a 2 hour drive away at altitude 7,000 feet in the southern
          > > california mountains in a ski resort town. so when i am in los
          > > angeles on some weekends - my wife can visit her family - while
          i
          > > can practice buddhism.
          > >
          > > i have found one such location that is a Zen center, and another
          > > that is a temple with roots in China, but has english speaking
          > > classes, and is "humanistic buddhism". both have programs on
          sunday
          > > mornings that would be useful to me.
          > >
          > > http://www.zencenter.com/
          > >
          > > http://www.hsilai.org/english/
          > >
          > > there are the two web sites. which one should i go to?
          > >
          > > (of course one answer is i could try both and see which one i
          like)
          > >
          > > Jim
        • Jim
          thanks Ken - but while you are on the subject - what are the differences in those 3 paths of buddhism and why did you select Tibetan buddhism as your path?
          Message 4 of 18 , Feb 2, 2005
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            thanks Ken - but while you are on the subject - what are the
            differences in those 3 paths of buddhism and why did you select
            Tibetan buddhism as your path?

            (p.s. sorry i think instead of posting a private email i posted my
            last message about where i live to Kraig as a public message... no
            big deal as far as my pricacy but sorry for posting a private
            message in a public forum)

            jim

            --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, Ken/ <klegshe@y...> wrote:
            > >(of course one answer is i could try both and see
            > >which one i like)
            >
            > I think you already answered your own question, Jim.
            > As a follower of the path through Vajrayana Buddhism,
            > I'd recommend you try a Tibetan center, also. I'm sure
            > there are quite a few in greater L.A.
            > Peace,
            > Ken/
            >
            > --- Jim <jim@u...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            > >
            > > hi - i am age 42, raised roman catholic, practicing
            > > nothing for
            > > quite a while as an adult - although retaining the
            > > "golden rule" and
            > > trying to follow jesus by example rather then by
            > > going to church.
            > > churches bore me. i have read books by dalai lama
            > > and thich nhat
            > > hanh and am very impressed by what they say
            > > regarding buddhism.
            > >
            > > my own beliefs coincide more with buddhism then with
            > > christian
            > > church beliefs. (such as - heaven (nirvana) is on
            > > earth not
            > > something after you die, etc.)
            > >
            > > fortunately i do spend some time in los angeles,
            > > even though i live
            > > a 2 hour drive away at altitude 7,000 feet in the
            > > southern
            > > california mountains in a ski resort town. so when
            > > i am in los
            > > angeles on some weekends - my wife can visit her
            > > family - while i
            > > can practice buddhism.
            > >
            > > i have found one such location that is a Zen center,
            > > and another
            > > that is a temple with roots in China, but has
            > > english speaking
            > > classes, and is "humanistic buddhism". both have
            > > programs on sunday
            > > mornings that would be useful to me.
            > >
            > > http://www.zencenter.com/
            > >
            > > http://www.hsilai.org/english/
            > >
            > > there are the two web sites. which one should i go
            > > to?
            > >
            > > (of course one answer is i could try both and see
            > > which one i like)
            > >
            > > Jim
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > > --------------------~-->
            > > In low income neighborhoods, 84% do not own
            > > computers.
            > > At Network for Good, help bridge the Digital Divide!
            > >
            > http://us.click.yahoo.com/hjtSRD/3MnJAA/i1hLAA/GkEylB/TM
            > >
            > -------------------------------------------------------------------
            -~->
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > > Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > __________________________________
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            > The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
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          • Kraig Mottar
            I d actually stay Buddhism is not a religion not for anyone of the reasons you gave that people say it is not a religion. When I say Buddhism is not a
            Message 5 of 18 , Feb 2, 2005
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              I'd actually stay Buddhism is not a religion not for anyone of the
              reasons you gave that people say it is not a religion. When I say
              Buddhism is not a religion, it is not a put down, but quite the
              contrary. This all hinges on the definition of "religion". Its just
              semantics. Whether it is or is not a religion is pretty irrelevant and
              unimportant. Religion is unneccesary, all the matters is spiritual
              awareness. There is no religion that matches me or anyone, 100%.

              Kraig

              --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jim@u...> wrote:
              >
              > IMO anyone who says that buddhism is not a religion - is just
              > threatened by buddhism. that they are already in another religion
              > and saying that buddhism is not a religion is a way for them to just
              > put down another religion.
              >
              > it's a religion all right. thich nhat hanh says that jesus was a
              > buddha. so its a way of being religious. the only thing close to
              > it in christianity i would guess are monks, where prayer is pretty
              > much the same thing as meditation and mindfulness.
              >
              > in buddhism you can be jesus-like. rather then merely "praising"
              > jesus. i guess it depends on what your definition of religion is.
              >
              > i dont' think we'll find anyone praising buddha. instead i think
              > we'll find buddhists are trying to be buddha-like.
              >
              > but i'm a novice - experts correct me if i am wrong.
              >
              > jim
              >
              > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
              > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
              > >
              > > What mountains do you live in? I'm close to the mountains here
              > > actually. I live on hwy 38 which goes up to the San Bernardino
              > mountains.
              > > I am 39 but I'm really younger than I am, and in a negative way.
              > > I was raised protestant Christian, I now attend a liberal Quaker
              > > meeting and sometimes a Ch'an Meditation class. You might actually
              > be
              > > surprised by liberal Quakerism, it is quite similar to Buddhism
              > > actually. My parents are typical Christians, the churchy kind.
              > >
              > > I'm actually most intested in early Christianity before it was
              > > tainted by the so-called apostles. Christians for instance,
              > believed
              > > in reincarnation.
              > >
              > > Some Buddhist are Christian and some Christians are Buddhist.
              > >
              > > I'm more intested in spirituality than religion. There is a
              > > difference. I don't have much use for any church beliefs.
              > >
              > > There is no religion that is 100% compatible with me.
              > >
              > > One of the thing about Buddhism that I like is that its not a
              > religion.
              > > Or there is much debate whether or not it is a religion, most
              > saying
              > > its not, but is instead a philosophy, I depart from both labels
              > and so
              > > it's a practice.
              > >
              > > Kraig
              > >
              > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jim@u...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > hi - i am age 42, raised roman catholic, practicing nothing for
              > > > quite a while as an adult - although retaining the "golden rule"
              > and
              > > > trying to follow jesus by example rather then by going to
              > church.
              > > > churches bore me. i have read books by dalai lama and thich
              > nhat
              > > > hanh and am very impressed by what they say regarding buddhism.
              > > >
              > > > my own beliefs coincide more with buddhism then with christian
              > > > church beliefs. (such as - heaven (nirvana) is on earth not
              > > > something after you die, etc.)
              > > >
              > > > fortunately i do spend some time in los angeles, even though i
              > live
              > > > a 2 hour drive away at altitude 7,000 feet in the southern
              > > > california mountains in a ski resort town. so when i am in los
              > > > angeles on some weekends - my wife can visit her family - while
              > i
              > > > can practice buddhism.
              > > >
              > > > i have found one such location that is a Zen center, and another
              > > > that is a temple with roots in China, but has english speaking
              > > > classes, and is "humanistic buddhism". both have programs on
              > sunday
              > > > mornings that would be useful to me.
              > > >
              > > > http://www.zencenter.com/
              > > >
              > > > http://www.hsilai.org/english/
              > > >
              > > > there are the two web sites. which one should i go to?
              > > >
              > > > (of course one answer is i could try both and see which one i
              > like)
              > > >
              > > > Jim
            • Kraig Mottar
              Is it against the rules of this group to post personal information sbout yourself and location? No sarcasm there or anything like that, just wondering, because
              Message 6 of 18 , Feb 2, 2005
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                Is it against the rules of this group to post personal information
                sbout yourself and location? No sarcasm there or anything like that,
                just wondering, because in a previous message you seemed to appologize
                for it.

                Books, you are reccomending book, thanks. But in my involvements on
                the internet that happens a lot, people reccomending resources, and I
                just forward the messages with them to my mailbox and put them in a
                folder named "books" and other folders, but I fear, more often than
                not they just sit there. Need to find a better method of organization.
                I liked the program I had on my Commodore 64, years ago, called
                "shoebox". Wish I had that program on this computer. And I will be
                learnig to read faster, as I think it will help me read all the books
                I have, I have a whole unread library, and other aspects of my life
                which I hope to some day salvage.

                The liberaral Quaker meeting is Inland Valley Friends which meets on
                Sundays in Riverside. Note, liberal Quakerism is much different than
                the other kinds of Quakerism, I think the word "liberal" has a lot to
                do with it. I also attend a Ch'an Buddhist Meditation Group in
                Riverside, though, not lately, life has gotten complicated, and that's
                a good thing.

                There also are some Zen centers that I haven't been to, the Mt. Baldy
                Zen Center, I think their website is www.mbzc.org, though I'm saying
                that from memory, if that is incorrect, you can type, "Mt. Baldy Zen
                Center" into any search engine, and there's a Zen Center in Idyllwild.

                I like Buddhism, though, I'd like to expose myself to other forms and
                schools of Buddhism.

                In religion, I seem to be allver the place, I'm not a one religion
                person. Though I attend the Quaker meeting regularly lately. I'm
                toying with the idea of periodically attending a different church. To
                get different perspectives to incorporate into my spiritual mind.
                Spiritually I'm quite independant. Are there many local Gnostics
                and/or Gnostic organizations?

                Kraig

                --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jim@u...> wrote:
                >
                > interesting Craig. i am very close to you then as i am in the san
                > bern. mountains - i'll personal email you the details on which city.
                >
                > i'd like to attend that liberal quaker meeting just to see what it
                > is all about.
                >
                > in the meantime i have a few good choices to learn buddhism in los
                > angeles when i am there on occasion on sundays.
                >
                > i have the book "Rabbi Jesus" - you might like it. it is a
                > historical view of jesus.
                >
                > then of course i think you are a good fit too, for Gnosticism - and
                > Gnostic Christianity, which is something i too have an interest in,
                > but buddhism seems less theory and more practice then gnosticism
                > from what i've seen. there is a gnostic society in los angeles.
                > here is their web site - page that has streaming audio lectures. i
                > listened to them but - again its more academic and i'm more
                > interested in something i can practice - meditation...
                >
                > http://www.gnosis.org/lectures.html
                >
                > i have a book on gnosticism around here some where i'll need to dig
                > it up again, not sure where i put it... : )
                >
                > jim
                >
                > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                > >
                > > What mountains do you live in? I'm close to the mountains here
                > > actually. I live on hwy 38 which goes up to the San Bernardino
                > mountains.
                > > I am 39 but I'm really younger than I am, and in a negative way.
                > > I was raised protestant Christian, I now attend a liberal Quaker
                > > meeting and sometimes a Ch'an Meditation class. You might actually
                > be
                > > surprised by liberal Quakerism, it is quite similar to Buddhism
                > > actually. My parents are typical Christians, the churchy kind.
                > >
                > > I'm actually most intested in early Christianity before it was
                > > tainted by the so-called apostles. Christians for instance,
                > believed
                > > in reincarnation.
                > >
                > > Some Buddhist are Christian and some Christians are Buddhist.
                > >
                > > I'm more intested in spirituality than religion. There is a
                > > difference. I don't have much use for any church beliefs.
                > >
                > > There is no religion that is 100% compatible with me.
                > >
                > > One of the thing about Buddhism that I like is that its not a
                > religion.
                > > Or there is much debate whether or not it is a religion, most
                > saying
                > > its not, but is instead a philosophy, I depart from both labels
                > and so
                > > it's a practice.
                > >
                > > Kraig
                > >
                > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jim@u...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > hi - i am age 42, raised roman catholic, practicing nothing for
                > > > quite a while as an adult - although retaining the "golden rule"
                > and
                > > > trying to follow jesus by example rather then by going to
                > church.
                > > > churches bore me. i have read books by dalai lama and thich
                > nhat
                > > > hanh and am very impressed by what they say regarding buddhism.
                > > >
                > > > my own beliefs coincide more with buddhism then with christian
                > > > church beliefs. (such as - heaven (nirvana) is on earth not
                > > > something after you die, etc.)
                > > >
                > > > fortunately i do spend some time in los angeles, even though i
                > live
                > > > a 2 hour drive away at altitude 7,000 feet in the southern
                > > > california mountains in a ski resort town. so when i am in los
                > > > angeles on some weekends - my wife can visit her family - while
                > i
                > > > can practice buddhism.
                > > >
                > > > i have found one such location that is a Zen center, and another
                > > > that is a temple with roots in China, but has english speaking
                > > > classes, and is "humanistic buddhism". both have programs on
                > sunday
                > > > mornings that would be useful to me.
                > > >
                > > > http://www.zencenter.com/
                > > >
                > > > http://www.hsilai.org/english/
                > > >
                > > > there are the two web sites. which one should i go to?
                > > >
                > > > (of course one answer is i could try both and see which one i
                > like)
                > > >
                > > > Jim
              • Scott Meeker
                For the same reason anarchy has negative connotations, so does religion. There are many good religions, but we ll always remember wars and deaths associated
                Message 7 of 18 , Feb 2, 2005
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                  For the same reason anarchy has negative connotations, so does
                  religion. There are many good religions, but we'll always remember
                  wars and deaths associated with religious differences the most. I say
                  that my belief is Christian, but my religion is Buddhist, but I use
                  the words "Christian" and "Religion" like someone would wear a loose
                  robe. The words are transient.


                  --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                  <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I'd actually stay Buddhism is not a religion not for anyone of the
                  > reasons you gave that people say it is not a religion. When I say
                  > Buddhism is not a religion, it is not a put down, but quite the
                  > contrary. This all hinges on the definition of "religion". Its just
                  > semantics. Whether it is or is not a religion is pretty irrelevant and
                  > unimportant. Religion is unneccesary, all the matters is spiritual
                  > awareness. There is no religion that matches me or anyone, 100%.
                  >
                  > Kraig
                  >
                  > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jim@u...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > IMO anyone who says that buddhism is not a religion - is just
                  > > threatened by buddhism. that they are already in another religion
                  > > and saying that buddhism is not a religion is a way for them to just
                  > > put down another religion.
                  > >
                  > > it's a religion all right. thich nhat hanh says that jesus was a
                  > > buddha. so its a way of being religious. the only thing close to
                  > > it in christianity i would guess are monks, where prayer is pretty
                  > > much the same thing as meditation and mindfulness.
                  > >
                  > > in buddhism you can be jesus-like. rather then merely "praising"
                  > > jesus. i guess it depends on what your definition of religion is.
                  > >
                  > > i dont' think we'll find anyone praising buddha. instead i think
                  > > we'll find buddhists are trying to be buddha-like.
                  > >
                  > > but i'm a novice - experts correct me if i am wrong.
                  > >
                  > > jim
                  > >
                  > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                  > > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > What mountains do you live in? I'm close to the mountains here
                  > > > actually. I live on hwy 38 which goes up to the San Bernardino
                  > > mountains.
                  > > > I am 39 but I'm really younger than I am, and in a negative way.
                  > > > I was raised protestant Christian, I now attend a liberal Quaker
                  > > > meeting and sometimes a Ch'an Meditation class. You might actually
                  > > be
                  > > > surprised by liberal Quakerism, it is quite similar to Buddhism
                  > > > actually. My parents are typical Christians, the churchy kind.
                  > > >
                  > > > I'm actually most intested in early Christianity before it was
                  > > > tainted by the so-called apostles. Christians for instance,
                  > > believed
                  > > > in reincarnation.
                  > > >
                  > > > Some Buddhist are Christian and some Christians are Buddhist.
                  > > >
                  > > > I'm more intested in spirituality than religion. There is a
                  > > > difference. I don't have much use for any church beliefs.
                  > > >
                  > > > There is no religion that is 100% compatible with me.
                  > > >
                  > > > One of the thing about Buddhism that I like is that its not a
                  > > religion.
                  > > > Or there is much debate whether or not it is a religion, most
                  > > saying
                  > > > its not, but is instead a philosophy, I depart from both labels
                  > > and so
                  > > > it's a practice.
                  > > >
                  > > > Kraig
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jim@u...> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > hi - i am age 42, raised roman catholic, practicing nothing for
                  > > > > quite a while as an adult - although retaining the "golden rule"
                  > > and
                  > > > > trying to follow jesus by example rather then by going to
                  > > church.
                  > > > > churches bore me. i have read books by dalai lama and thich
                  > > nhat
                  > > > > hanh and am very impressed by what they say regarding buddhism.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > my own beliefs coincide more with buddhism then with christian
                  > > > > church beliefs. (such as - heaven (nirvana) is on earth not
                  > > > > something after you die, etc.)
                  > > > >
                  > > > > fortunately i do spend some time in los angeles, even though i
                  > > live
                  > > > > a 2 hour drive away at altitude 7,000 feet in the southern
                  > > > > california mountains in a ski resort town. so when i am in los
                  > > > > angeles on some weekends - my wife can visit her family - while
                  > > i
                  > > > > can practice buddhism.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > i have found one such location that is a Zen center, and another
                  > > > > that is a temple with roots in China, but has english speaking
                  > > > > classes, and is "humanistic buddhism". both have programs on
                  > > sunday
                  > > > > mornings that would be useful to me.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > http://www.zencenter.com/
                  > > > >
                  > > > > http://www.hsilai.org/english/
                  > > > >
                  > > > > there are the two web sites. which one should i go to?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > (of course one answer is i could try both and see which one i
                  > > like)
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Jim
                • Scott Meeker
                  I seriously doubt that personal information is against the rules, I think most people just like to stay on topic. I love to golf, but I wouldn t want to write
                  Message 8 of 18 , Feb 2, 2005
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                    I seriously doubt that personal information is against
                    the rules, I think most people just like to stay on
                    topic. I love to golf, but I wouldn't want to write a
                    lot about golf in this group, unless it relates to
                    Buddhism. By the way, the PING G2 irons were voted the
                    most popular, and game improving irons of 2004!


                    ....just a wee bit of humor
                    2 MONTHS WITHOUT SMOKING! WOO! HOO!

                    -Scott



                    <kraig.mottar@...> wrote:

                    >
                    > Is it against the rules of this group to post
                    > personal information
                    > sbout yourself and location? No sarcasm there or
                    > anything like that,
                    > just wondering, because in a previous message you
                    > seemed to appologize
                    > for it.
                    >
                    > Books, you are reccomending book, thanks. But in my
                    > involvements on
                    > the internet that happens a lot, people reccomending
                    > resources, and I
                    > just forward the messages with them to my mailbox
                    > and put them in a
                    > folder named "books" and other folders, but I fear,
                    > more often than
                    > not they just sit there. Need to find a better
                    > method of organization.
                    > I liked the program I had on my Commodore 64, years
                    > ago, called
                    > "shoebox". Wish I had that program on this computer.
                    > And I will be
                    > learnig to read faster, as I think it will help me
                    > read all the books
                    > I have, I have a whole unread library, and other
                    > aspects of my life
                    > which I hope to some day salvage.
                    >
                    > The liberaral Quaker meeting is Inland Valley
                    > Friends which meets on
                    > Sundays in Riverside. Note, liberal Quakerism is
                    > much different than
                    > the other kinds of Quakerism, I think the word
                    > "liberal" has a lot to
                    > do with it. I also attend a Ch'an Buddhist
                    > Meditation Group in
                    > Riverside, though, not lately, life has gotten
                    > complicated, and that's
                    > a good thing.
                    >
                    > There also are some Zen centers that I haven't been
                    > to, the Mt. Baldy
                    > Zen Center, I think their website is www.mbzc.org,
                    > though I'm saying
                    > that from memory, if that is incorrect, you can
                    > type, "Mt. Baldy Zen
                    > Center" into any search engine, and there's a Zen
                    > Center in Idyllwild.
                    >
                    > I like Buddhism, though, I'd like to expose myself
                    > to other forms and
                    > schools of Buddhism.
                    >
                    > In religion, I seem to be allver the place, I'm not
                    > a one religion
                    > person. Though I attend the Quaker meeting regularly
                    > lately. I'm
                    > toying with the idea of periodically attending a
                    > different church. To
                    > get different perspectives to incorporate into my
                    > spiritual mind.
                    > Spiritually I'm quite independant. Are there many
                    > local Gnostics
                    > and/or Gnostic organizations?
                    >
                    > Kraig
                    >
                    > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Jim"
                    > <jim@u...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > interesting Craig. i am very close to you then as
                    > i am in the san
                    > > bern. mountains - i'll personal email you the
                    > details on which city.
                    > >
                    > > i'd like to attend that liberal quaker meeting
                    > just to see what it
                    > > is all about.
                    > >
                    > > in the meantime i have a few good choices to learn
                    > buddhism in los
                    > > angeles when i am there on occasion on sundays.
                    > >
                    > > i have the book "Rabbi Jesus" - you might like it.
                    > it is a
                    > > historical view of jesus.
                    > >
                    > > then of course i think you are a good fit too, for
                    > Gnosticism - and
                    > > Gnostic Christianity, which is something i too
                    > have an interest in,
                    > > but buddhism seems less theory and more practice
                    > then gnosticism
                    > > from what i've seen. there is a gnostic society
                    > in los angeles.
                    > > here is their web site - page that has streaming
                    > audio lectures. i
                    > > listened to them but - again its more academic and
                    > i'm more
                    > > interested in something i can practice -
                    > meditation...
                    > >
                    > > http://www.gnosis.org/lectures.html
                    > >
                    > > i have a book on gnosticism around here some where
                    > i'll need to dig
                    > > it up again, not sure where i put it... : )
                    > >
                    > > jim
                    > >
                    > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig
                    > Mottar"
                    > > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > What mountains do you live in? I'm close to the
                    > mountains here
                    > > > actually. I live on hwy 38 which goes up to the
                    > San Bernardino
                    > > mountains.
                    > > > I am 39 but I'm really younger than I am, and
                    > in a negative way.
                    > > > I was raised protestant Christian, I now attend
                    > a liberal Quaker
                    > > > meeting and sometimes a Ch'an Meditation class.
                    > You might actually
                    > > be
                    > > > surprised by liberal Quakerism, it is quite
                    > similar to Buddhism
                    > > > actually. My parents are typical Christians, the
                    > churchy kind.
                    > > >
                    > > > I'm actually most intested in early Christianity
                    > before it was
                    > > > tainted by the so-called apostles. Christians
                    > for instance,
                    > > believed
                    > > > in reincarnation.
                    > > >
                    > > > Some Buddhist are Christian and some Christians
                    > are Buddhist.
                    > > >
                    > > > I'm more intested in spirituality than religion.
                    > There is a
                    > > > difference. I don't have much use for any church
                    > beliefs.
                    > > >
                    > > > There is no religion that is 100% compatible
                    > with me.
                    > > >
                    > > > One of the thing about Buddhism that I like is
                    > that its not a
                    > > religion.
                    > > > Or there is much debate whether or not it is a
                    > religion, most
                    > > saying
                    > > > its not, but is instead a philosophy, I depart
                    > from both labels
                    > > and so
                    > > > it's a practice.
                    > > >
                    > > > Kraig
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Jim"
                    > <jim@u...> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > hi - i am age 42, raised roman catholic,
                    > practicing nothing for
                    > > > > quite a while as an adult - although retaining
                    > the "golden rule"
                    > > and
                    > > > > trying to follow jesus by example rather then
                    > by going to
                    > > church.
                    > > > > churches bore me. i have read books by dalai
                    > lama and thich
                    > > nhat
                    > > > > hanh and am very impressed by what they say
                    > regarding buddhism.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > my own beliefs coincide more with buddhism
                    > then with christian
                    > > > > church beliefs. (such as - heaven (nirvana)
                    > is on earth not
                    > > > > something after you die, etc.)
                    > > > >
                    > > > > fortunately i do spend some time in los
                    > angeles, even though i
                    > > live
                    > > > > a 2 hour drive away at altitude 7,000 feet in
                    > the southern
                    > > > > california mountains in a ski resort town. so
                    > when i am in los
                    > > > > angeles on some weekends - my wife can visit
                    > her family - while
                    > > i
                    > > > > can practice buddhism.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > i have found one such location that is a Zen
                    > center, and another
                    > > > > that is a temple with roots in China, but has
                    > english
                    === message truncated ===
                  • Kraig Mottar
                    I d agree with you there. Whether it s religion, anarchism, or this, that, or the other thing, the most negative aspects of it will stick out in the popular
                    Message 9 of 18 , Feb 2, 2005
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                      I'd agree with you there. Whether it's religion, anarchism, or this,
                      that, or the other thing, the most negative aspects of it will stick
                      out in the popular understanding of it. And I consider myself an
                      anarchist, not a bomb thrower, but everyone remembers the bomb
                      throwers when they hear "anarchism". There are pacifist anarchist.
                      Everyone will remember the crusades and the witch burning when they
                      hear the word, "religion".

                      Than there are the my religion is better than your religion arguments.

                      Unfortuanately, word aren't transient to most people.

                      Kraig


                      --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Meeker"
                      <ultravisual1@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > For the same reason anarchy has negative connotations, so does
                      > religion. There are many good religions, but we'll always remember
                      > wars and deaths associated with religious differences the most. I say
                      > that my belief is Christian, but my religion is Buddhist, but I use
                      > the words "Christian" and "Religion" like someone would wear a loose
                      > robe. The words are transient.
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                      > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I'd actually stay Buddhism is not a religion not for anyone of the
                      > > reasons you gave that people say it is not a religion. When I say
                      > > Buddhism is not a religion, it is not a put down, but quite the
                      > > contrary. This all hinges on the definition of "religion". Its just
                      > > semantics. Whether it is or is not a religion is pretty irrelevant and
                      > > unimportant. Religion is unneccesary, all the matters is spiritual
                      > > awareness. There is no religion that matches me or anyone, 100%.
                      > >
                      > > Kraig
                      > >
                      > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jim@u...> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > IMO anyone who says that buddhism is not a religion - is just
                      > > > threatened by buddhism. that they are already in another religion
                      > > > and saying that buddhism is not a religion is a way for them to
                      just
                      > > > put down another religion.
                      > > >
                      > > > it's a religion all right. thich nhat hanh says that jesus was a
                      > > > buddha. so its a way of being religious. the only thing close to
                      > > > it in christianity i would guess are monks, where prayer is pretty
                      > > > much the same thing as meditation and mindfulness.
                      > > >
                      > > > in buddhism you can be jesus-like. rather then merely "praising"
                      > > > jesus. i guess it depends on what your definition of religion is.
                      > > >
                      > > > i dont' think we'll find anyone praising buddha. instead i think
                      > > > we'll find buddhists are trying to be buddha-like.
                      > > >
                      > > > but i'm a novice - experts correct me if i am wrong.
                      > > >
                      > > > jim
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Kraig Mottar"
                      > > > <kraig.mottar@v...> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > What mountains do you live in? I'm close to the mountains here
                      > > > > actually. I live on hwy 38 which goes up to the San Bernardino
                      > > > mountains.
                      > > > > I am 39 but I'm really younger than I am, and in a negative way.
                      > > > > I was raised protestant Christian, I now attend a liberal Quaker
                      > > > > meeting and sometimes a Ch'an Meditation class. You might
                      actually
                      > > > be
                      > > > > surprised by liberal Quakerism, it is quite similar to Buddhism
                      > > > > actually. My parents are typical Christians, the churchy kind.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I'm actually most intested in early Christianity before it was
                      > > > > tainted by the so-called apostles. Christians for instance,
                      > > > believed
                      > > > > in reincarnation.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Some Buddhist are Christian and some Christians are Buddhist.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I'm more intested in spirituality than religion. There is a
                      > > > > difference. I don't have much use for any church beliefs.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > There is no religion that is 100% compatible with me.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > One of the thing about Buddhism that I like is that its not a
                      > > > religion.
                      > > > > Or there is much debate whether or not it is a religion, most
                      > > > saying
                      > > > > its not, but is instead a philosophy, I depart from both labels
                      > > > and so
                      > > > > it's a practice.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Kraig
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jim@u...> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > hi - i am age 42, raised roman catholic, practicing nothing for
                      > > > > > quite a while as an adult - although retaining the "golden
                      rule"
                      > > > and
                      > > > > > trying to follow jesus by example rather then by going to
                      > > > church.
                      > > > > > churches bore me. i have read books by dalai lama and thich
                      > > > nhat
                      > > > > > hanh and am very impressed by what they say regarding buddhism.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > my own beliefs coincide more with buddhism then with christian
                      > > > > > church beliefs. (such as - heaven (nirvana) is on earth not
                      > > > > > something after you die, etc.)
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > fortunately i do spend some time in los angeles, even though i
                      > > > live
                      > > > > > a 2 hour drive away at altitude 7,000 feet in the southern
                      > > > > > california mountains in a ski resort town. so when i am in los
                      > > > > > angeles on some weekends - my wife can visit her family - while
                      > > > i
                      > > > > > can practice buddhism.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > i have found one such location that is a Zen center, and
                      another
                      > > > > > that is a temple with roots in China, but has english speaking
                      > > > > > classes, and is "humanistic buddhism". both have programs on
                      > > > sunday
                      > > > > > mornings that would be useful to me.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > http://www.zencenter.com/
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > http://www.hsilai.org/english/
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > there are the two web sites. which one should i go to?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > (of course one answer is i could try both and see which one i
                      > > > like)
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Jim
                    • Heartwings Papillons
                      No, there is no problem with posting personal information, but, like any Internet list, I would caution people to be careful as you never know who is on a
                      Message 10 of 18 , Feb 2, 2005
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                        No, there is no problem with posting personal information, but, like any Internet list, I would caution people to be careful as you never know who is on a list.  We have never had any problems here that I am aware of, but I would caution anyone from posting so much information that some weirdo with bad intentions could actually locate your home.  Feel free to make friends and exchange personal information when you are comfortable with someone, but I would suggest you do it in private emails and not on the list.  In general, as long as you and your email address do not give your last name, I think it would be safe to say that you "live in Peoria" or whatever and are in search of other Buddhists or resources in the area.
                         
                        The only carved in stone rule here is no spam and keep your text G rated.  Obviously I will have to cut off someone if they start bashing something or someone too much, but polite disagreements are fine.  I would also caution against going too far in discussing politics even though I realize that the situation with Tibet and certain lamas does cross over into Buddhism.
                         
                        Susan - Listowner
                      • Jim
                        i thought i was sending a personal email but it posted. at any rate now i ve found the delete button so i was able to go back to that post and delete it. i am
                        Message 11 of 18 , Feb 3, 2005
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                          i thought i was sending a personal email but it posted. at any rate
                          now i've found the delete button so i was able to go back to that
                          post and delete it.

                          i am new to yahoo groups too.

                          but i aint too worried about city or email address which is what i
                          posted anyways,

                          jim

                          --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, "Heartwings Papillons"
                          <papillon@s...> wrote:
                          > No, there is no problem with posting personal information, but,
                          like any Internet list, I would caution people to be careful as you
                          never know who is on a list. We have never had any problems here
                          that I am aware of, but I would caution anyone from posting so much
                          information that some weirdo with bad intentions could actually
                          locate your home. Feel free to make friends and exchange personal
                          information when you are comfortable with someone, but I would
                          suggest you do it in private emails and not on the list. In
                          general, as long as you and your email address do not give your last
                          name, I think it would be safe to say that you "live in Peoria" or
                          whatever and are in search of other Buddhists or resources in the
                          area.
                          >
                          > The only carved in stone rule here is no spam and keep your text G
                          rated. Obviously I will have to cut off someone if they start
                          bashing something or someone too much, but polite disagreements are
                          fine. I would also caution against going too far in discussing
                          politics even though I realize that the situation with Tibet and
                          certain lamas does cross over into Buddhism.
                          >
                          > Susan - Listowner
                        • Ken/
                          ... Hi Jim, I ll do the best I can. There are actually considered two divisions. Theravada, or the Way of the Elders . This division had, once a variety of
                          Message 12 of 18 , Feb 3, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- Jim <jim@...> wrote:

                            >
                            >
                            > thanks Ken - but while you are on the subject - what
                            > are the
                            > differences in those 3 paths of buddhism and why did
                            > you select
                            > Tibetan buddhism as your path?


                            Hi Jim, I'll do the best I can.
                            There are actually considered two divisions.
                            Theravada, or the "Way of the Elders". This division
                            had, once a variety of schools associated with it,
                            Theravada being only one of the schools. Over the
                            centuries, for various reasons, it was distilled down
                            to the Theravada. This tradition covers, mostly, S.E.
                            Asia and Sri Lanka, though it is being re introduced
                            into India where it began. Pali is the language used
                            in the Canon of Buddhist teachings. It's primary aim
                            is personal enlightenment.
                            The other tradition is the Mahayana. This is known as
                            the messianic tradition. It includes Vajrayana. It
                            uses the Pali Canon and, also, later teachings, these
                            in Sanscrit. The primary difference is that the
                            Mahayana practitioner wishes to become enlightened in
                            order to to bring all other "sentient beings" to
                            enlightenment. This is called Bodhicitta. A person who
                            has developed Bodhicitta, in both it's types, and
                            practices this way is called a Bodhisattava. A
                            Bodhisattava vows not to reach Nirvana (motl) until
                            all other sentient beings can join him.
                            Vajrayana, is the more esoteric of the traditions. It
                            includes Hinayana (though this parallels Theravada, it
                            is not to be confused with), and Mahayana, (the way of
                            the Bodhisattava). Where Theravadins and other
                            Mahayanins believe it can take many lifetimes to
                            become fully enlightened, Vajrayanins say that it can
                            be done in one lifetime, as shown by Milarepa (do a
                            search, interesting story). This is done with the use
                            of a variety of Tantric 'tools' and intensive
                            meditations.

                            I first beacame a Buddhist in 1969 (and took my first
                            formal refuge) in the Thai tradition of Theravada (I
                            was in Thailand thanks to a little diversion
                            nearby.;-)). I switched to Tibetan (Vajrayana) after
                            reading, intensly, on it and Zen and attending a local
                            Korean Zendo, then the Tibetan Cultural Center in
                            Bloomington, Indiana. I also heard the Dalai Lama
                            speak, there, and attended several side classes during
                            the time he was giving the Kalachakra initiation
                            (1969, couldn't afford the initiation). I, only
                            recently, found a Drikung Kaygu center near me and
                            have become a member (taking formal refuge with His
                            Eminance Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche, last June).
                            I was looking to change from Theravada because of the
                            lack of centers in my area, and I believed the "Way of
                            the Bodhisattava" is the best way.

                            I hope this helps. I, no doubt, left out a few things.
                            Peace,
                            Ken/ \

                            --- Jim <jim@...> wrote:

                            >
                            >
                            > thanks Ken - but while you are on the subject - what
                            > are the
                            > differences in those 3 paths of buddhism and why did
                            > you select
                            > Tibetan buddhism as your path?


                            __________________________________________________
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                          • Kindnsruls@aol.com
                            Message 13 of 18 , Feb 3, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              <<The primary difference is that the
                              Mahayana practitioner wishes to become enlightened in
                              order to to bring all other "sentient beings" to
                              enlightenment.>>
                               
                               
                              Hi Ken...as always I hope you are as well and happy as is posible!  :D
                               
                               
                               
                              Another major difference, and one that causes us many problems as beginners, is that the Theravada believe in absolute realities...the realities of Nama (Mental Formations) and Rupa (Form)....nama is everything that experiences....rupa is the object of experience and experiences nothing itself....they call these dharmas, and believe that they are substantially existent from their own side.
                               
                              The Mahayana belief is that even these two, nama and rupa are compounded phenomena, lacking inherent existence from their own side. This is why you will read that "all dharmas are empty" over and over again in Mahayana teachings.
                               
                              When we begin on our own....we are usually reading material from both Mahayana, and Hinayana (Theravada) without knowledge of the differences and so we seem to always be reading conflicting statements....because we are in a way....lol....but the end result is the same.
                               
                              Theravada belief holds that the relative self exists and self grasping must be removed through the practices and view of no self.
                              Self clinging must be "overcome" and selflessness or voidness is that state which is then attained as a result of this end to self grasping/clinging.
                               
                              "The attainment of voidness."
                               
                              Mahayana believes that there was never a self to begin with, that one cannot attain that which one already possess (emptiness of self) and that it is only the obscuration to this wisdom-knowledge already possessed that must be cleared away.
                               
                              "There is nothing to attain and nothing to not attain."
                               
                              Both end up pretty much in the same place...No Self.
                               
                              The Therevada by seeing that there is really no necessity of a self, that without this grasping clinging self our suffering ceases.
                               
                              The Mahayana by seeing that this self never existed to begin with, and it was only our delusion of self and other which caused our suffering to arise.
                               
                              With this understanding...read the Heart Sutra again. :D
                               
                              You will see more clearly what was being taught and who was being taught. ;)
                               
                              Many Arhants are said to have walked out when Shariputra began discourse on the fact that all dharmas are empty!
                               
                               
                               
                              Joyce/Tenzin Yangchen


                              Both the enlightened, and deluded world do not have even an atom of inherent existence,
                              Yet cause and effect are non-fraudulent in their interdependent arising.
                              Seeing compatibility between cause and effect lacking true existence,
                              yet functioning non-fraudulently on the illusory level is the perfect view of Arya Nagarjuna,
                              May I be blessed by gurus to come to understand this.

                              The translation of Guru Puja verse (108)
                            • Jim
                              got it thanks Ken. they are both good paths. i suppose it depends then on whether you want to enroll others into your path or not (using landmark education
                              Message 14 of 18 , Feb 3, 2005
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                                got it thanks Ken.

                                they are both good paths. i suppose it depends then on whether you
                                want to enroll others into your path or not (using landmark
                                education speak which i took several of their courses 5 years ago
                                and i believe there are some buddhist elements in the makeup of
                                their curriculum.)

                                jim

                                --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, Ken/ <klegshe@y...> wrote:
                                > --- Jim <jim@u...> wrote:
                                >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > thanks Ken - but while you are on the subject - what
                                > > are the
                                > > differences in those 3 paths of buddhism and why did
                                > > you select
                                > > Tibetan buddhism as your path?
                                >
                                >
                                > Hi Jim, I'll do the best I can.
                                > There are actually considered two divisions.
                                > Theravada, or the "Way of the Elders". This division
                                > had, once a variety of schools associated with it,
                                > Theravada being only one of the schools. Over the
                                > centuries, for various reasons, it was distilled down
                                > to the Theravada. This tradition covers, mostly, S.E.
                                > Asia and Sri Lanka, though it is being re introduced
                                > into India where it began. Pali is the language used
                                > in the Canon of Buddhist teachings. It's primary aim
                                > is personal enlightenment.
                                > The other tradition is the Mahayana. This is known as
                                > the messianic tradition. It includes Vajrayana. It
                                > uses the Pali Canon and, also, later teachings, these
                                > in Sanscrit. The primary difference is that the
                                > Mahayana practitioner wishes to become enlightened in
                                > order to to bring all other "sentient beings" to
                                > enlightenment. This is called Bodhicitta. A person who
                                > has developed Bodhicitta, in both it's types, and
                                > practices this way is called a Bodhisattava. A
                                > Bodhisattava vows not to reach Nirvana (motl) until
                                > all other sentient beings can join him.
                                > Vajrayana, is the more esoteric of the traditions. It
                                > includes Hinayana (though this parallels Theravada, it
                                > is not to be confused with), and Mahayana, (the way of
                                > the Bodhisattava). Where Theravadins and other
                                > Mahayanins believe it can take many lifetimes to
                                > become fully enlightened, Vajrayanins say that it can
                                > be done in one lifetime, as shown by Milarepa (do a
                                > search, interesting story). This is done with the use
                                > of a variety of Tantric 'tools' and intensive
                                > meditations.
                                >
                                > I first beacame a Buddhist in 1969 (and took my first
                                > formal refuge) in the Thai tradition of Theravada (I
                                > was in Thailand thanks to a little diversion
                                > nearby.;-)). I switched to Tibetan (Vajrayana) after
                                > reading, intensly, on it and Zen and attending a local
                                > Korean Zendo, then the Tibetan Cultural Center in
                                > Bloomington, Indiana. I also heard the Dalai Lama
                                > speak, there, and attended several side classes during
                                > the time he was giving the Kalachakra initiation
                                > (1969, couldn't afford the initiation). I, only
                                > recently, found a Drikung Kaygu center near me and
                                > have become a member (taking formal refuge with His
                                > Eminance Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche, last June).
                                > I was looking to change from Theravada because of the
                                > lack of centers in my area, and I believed the "Way of
                                > the Bodhisattava" is the best way.
                                >
                                > I hope this helps. I, no doubt, left out a few things.
                                > Peace,
                                > Ken/ \
                                >
                                > --- Jim <jim@u...> wrote:
                                >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > thanks Ken - but while you are on the subject - what
                                > > are the
                                > > differences in those 3 paths of buddhism and why did
                                > > you select
                                > > Tibetan buddhism as your path?
                                >
                                >
                                > __________________________________________________
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                                > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                > http://mail.yahoo.com
                              • Jim
                                one more question - which of the two groups - look out for number one and look out for number two - does Zen fall into? jim
                                Message 15 of 18 , Feb 3, 2005
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                                  one more question - which of the two groups - look out for number
                                  one and look out for number two - does Zen fall into?

                                  jim

                                  --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, Ken/ <klegshe@y...> wrote:
                                  > --- Jim <jim@u...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > thanks Ken - but while you are on the subject - what
                                  > > are the
                                  > > differences in those 3 paths of buddhism and why did
                                  > > you select
                                  > > Tibetan buddhism as your path?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hi Jim, I'll do the best I can.
                                  > There are actually considered two divisions.
                                  > Theravada, or the "Way of the Elders". This division
                                  > had, once a variety of schools associated with it,
                                  > Theravada being only one of the schools. Over the
                                  > centuries, for various reasons, it was distilled down
                                  > to the Theravada. This tradition covers, mostly, S.E.
                                  > Asia and Sri Lanka, though it is being re introduced
                                  > into India where it began. Pali is the language used
                                  > in the Canon of Buddhist teachings. It's primary aim
                                  > is personal enlightenment.
                                  > The other tradition is the Mahayana. This is known as
                                  > the messianic tradition. It includes Vajrayana. It
                                  > uses the Pali Canon and, also, later teachings, these
                                  > in Sanscrit. The primary difference is that the
                                  > Mahayana practitioner wishes to become enlightened in
                                  > order to to bring all other "sentient beings" to
                                  > enlightenment. This is called Bodhicitta. A person who
                                  > has developed Bodhicitta, in both it's types, and
                                  > practices this way is called a Bodhisattava. A
                                  > Bodhisattava vows not to reach Nirvana (motl) until
                                  > all other sentient beings can join him.
                                  > Vajrayana, is the more esoteric of the traditions. It
                                  > includes Hinayana (though this parallels Theravada, it
                                  > is not to be confused with), and Mahayana, (the way of
                                  > the Bodhisattava). Where Theravadins and other
                                  > Mahayanins believe it can take many lifetimes to
                                  > become fully enlightened, Vajrayanins say that it can
                                  > be done in one lifetime, as shown by Milarepa (do a
                                  > search, interesting story). This is done with the use
                                  > of a variety of Tantric 'tools' and intensive
                                  > meditations.
                                  >
                                  > I first beacame a Buddhist in 1969 (and took my first
                                  > formal refuge) in the Thai tradition of Theravada (I
                                  > was in Thailand thanks to a little diversion
                                  > nearby.;-)). I switched to Tibetan (Vajrayana) after
                                  > reading, intensly, on it and Zen and attending a local
                                  > Korean Zendo, then the Tibetan Cultural Center in
                                  > Bloomington, Indiana. I also heard the Dalai Lama
                                  > speak, there, and attended several side classes during
                                  > the time he was giving the Kalachakra initiation
                                  > (1969, couldn't afford the initiation). I, only
                                  > recently, found a Drikung Kaygu center near me and
                                  > have become a member (taking formal refuge with His
                                  > Eminance Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche, last June).
                                  > I was looking to change from Theravada because of the
                                  > lack of centers in my area, and I believed the "Way of
                                  > the Bodhisattava" is the best way.
                                  >
                                  > I hope this helps. I, no doubt, left out a few things.
                                  > Peace,
                                  > Ken/ \
                                  >
                                  > --- Jim <jim@u...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > thanks Ken - but while you are on the subject - what
                                  > > are the
                                  > > differences in those 3 paths of buddhism and why did
                                  > > you select
                                  > > Tibetan buddhism as your path?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > __________________________________________________
                                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                                  > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                  > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                • Ken/
                                  Hi Joyce. I ve been doing ok. I hope you are. Thanks for that. I never could understand why some teachers, some Lamas included, speak of a relative self, when
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Feb 3, 2005
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                                    Hi Joyce. I've been doing ok. I hope you are.
                                    Thanks for that. I never could understand why some
                                    teachers, some Lamas included, speak of a relative
                                    self, when everything, that I have learned in
                                    Vajrayana, speaks of no self at all, ever. This helps.
                                    I was familiar with Mental Formations and Form, but
                                    didn't want to go that far in my post. Your
                                    explanation is much better than I could've done.
                                    Peace,
                                    Ken/
                                    --- Kindnsruls@... wrote:

                                    > <<The primary difference is that the
                                    > Mahayana practitioner wishes to become enlightened
                                    > in
                                    > order to to bring all other "sentient beings" to
                                    > enlightenment.>>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi Ken...as always I hope you are as well and happy
                                    > as is posible! :D
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Another major difference, and one that causes us
                                    > many problems as beginners,
                                    > is that the Theravada believe in absolute
                                    > realities...the realities of Nama
                                    > (Mental Formations) and Rupa (Form)....nama is
                                    > everything that
                                    > experiences....rupa is the object of experience and
                                    > experiences nothing itself....they call
                                    > these dharmas, and believe that they are
                                    > substantially existent from their
                                    > own side.
                                    >
                                    > The Mahayana belief is that even these two, nama and
                                    > rupa are compounded
                                    > phenomena, lacking inherent existence from their own
                                    > side. This is why you will
                                    > read that "all dharmas are empty" over and over
                                    > again in Mahayana teachings.
                                    >
                                    > When we begin on our own....we are usually reading
                                    > material from both
                                    > Mahayana, and Hinayana (Theravada) without knowledge
                                    > of the differences and so we
                                    > seem to always be reading conflicting
                                    > statements....because we are in a
                                    > way....lol....but the end result is the same.
                                    >
                                    > Theravada belief holds that the relative self exists
                                    > and self grasping must
                                    > be removed through the practices and view of no
                                    > self.
                                    > Self clinging must be "overcome" and selflessness or
                                    > voidness is that state
                                    > which is then attained as a result of this end to
                                    > self grasping/clinging.
                                    >
                                    > "The attainment of voidness."
                                    >
                                    > Mahayana believes that there was never a self to
                                    > begin with, that one cannot
                                    > attain that which one already possess (emptiness of
                                    > self) and that it is
                                    > only the obscuration to this wisdom-knowledge
                                    > already possessed that must be
                                    > cleared away.
                                    >
                                    > "There is nothing to attain and nothing to not
                                    > attain."
                                    >
                                    > Both end up pretty much in the same place...No Self.
                                    >
                                    > The Therevada by seeing that there is really no
                                    > necessity of a self, that
                                    > without this grasping clinging self our suffering
                                    > ceases.
                                    >
                                    > The Mahayana by seeing that this self never existed
                                    > to begin with, and it
                                    > was only our delusion of self and other which caused
                                    > our suffering to arise.
                                    >
                                    > With this understanding...read the Heart Sutra
                                    > again. :D
                                    >
                                    > You will see more clearly what was being taught and
                                    > who was being taught. ;)
                                    >
                                    > Many Arhants are said to have walked out when
                                    > Shariputra began discourse on
                                    > the fact that all dharmas are empty!
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Joyce/Tenzin Yangchen
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Both the enlightened, and deluded world do not have
                                    > even an atom of inherent
                                    > existence,
                                    > Yet cause and effect are non-fraudulent in their
                                    > interdependent arising.
                                    > Seeing compatibility between cause and effect
                                    > lacking true existence,
                                    > yet functioning non-fraudulently on the illusory
                                    > level is the perfect view
                                    > of Arya Nagarjuna,
                                    > May I be blessed by gurus to come to understand
                                    > this.
                                    >
                                    > The translation of Guru Puja verse (108)
                                    >




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                                  • Ken/
                                    Zen is Mahayana, but I really can t tell you much about it. I only have spent a little time with a Korean center and am still trying to understand. Peace, Ken/
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Feb 3, 2005
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                                      Zen is Mahayana, but I really can't tell you much
                                      about it. I only have spent a little time with a
                                      Korean center and am still trying to understand.
                                      Peace,
                                      Ken/
                                      --- Jim <jim@...> wrote:

                                      >
                                      >
                                      > one more question - which of the two groups - look
                                      > out for number
                                      > one and look out for number two - does Zen fall
                                      > into?
                                      >
                                      > jim
                                      >
                                      > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, Ken/
                                      > <klegshe@y...> wrote:
                                      > > --- Jim <jim@u...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > thanks Ken - but while you are on the subject -
                                      > what
                                      > > > are the
                                      > > > differences in those 3 paths of buddhism and why
                                      > did
                                      > > > you select
                                      > > > Tibetan buddhism as your path?
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Hi Jim, I'll do the best I can.
                                      > > There are actually considered two divisions.
                                      > > Theravada, or the "Way of the Elders". This
                                      > division
                                      > > had, once a variety of schools associated with it,
                                      > > Theravada being only one of the schools. Over the
                                      > > centuries, for various reasons, it was distilled
                                      > down
                                      > > to the Theravada. This tradition covers, mostly,
                                      > S.E.
                                      > > Asia and Sri Lanka, though it is being re
                                      > introduced
                                      > > into India where it began. Pali is the language
                                      > used
                                      > > in the Canon of Buddhist teachings. It's primary
                                      > aim
                                      > > is personal enlightenment.
                                      > > The other tradition is the Mahayana. This is known
                                      > as
                                      > > the messianic tradition. It includes Vajrayana. It
                                      > > uses the Pali Canon and, also, later teachings,
                                      > these
                                      > > in Sanscrit. The primary difference is that the
                                      > > Mahayana practitioner wishes to become enlightened
                                      > in
                                      > > order to to bring all other "sentient beings" to
                                      > > enlightenment. This is called Bodhicitta. A person
                                      > who
                                      > > has developed Bodhicitta, in both it's types, and
                                      > > practices this way is called a Bodhisattava. A
                                      > > Bodhisattava vows not to reach Nirvana (motl)
                                      > until
                                      > > all other sentient beings can join him.
                                      > > Vajrayana, is the more esoteric of the traditions.
                                      > It
                                      > > includes Hinayana (though this parallels
                                      > Theravada, it
                                      > > is not to be confused with), and Mahayana, (the
                                      > way of
                                      > > the Bodhisattava). Where Theravadins and other
                                      > > Mahayanins believe it can take many lifetimes to
                                      > > become fully enlightened, Vajrayanins say that it
                                      > can
                                      > > be done in one lifetime, as shown by Milarepa (do
                                      > a
                                      > > search, interesting story). This is done with the
                                      > use
                                      > > of a variety of Tantric 'tools' and intensive
                                      > > meditations.
                                      > >
                                      > > I first beacame a Buddhist in 1969 (and took my
                                      > first
                                      > > formal refuge) in the Thai tradition of Theravada
                                      > (I
                                      > > was in Thailand thanks to a little diversion
                                      > > nearby.;-)). I switched to Tibetan (Vajrayana)
                                      > after
                                      > > reading, intensly, on it and Zen and attending a
                                      > local
                                      > > Korean Zendo, then the Tibetan Cultural Center in
                                      > > Bloomington, Indiana. I also heard the Dalai Lama
                                      > > speak, there, and attended several side classes
                                      > during
                                      > > the time he was giving the Kalachakra initiation
                                      > > (1969, couldn't afford the initiation). I, only
                                      > > recently, found a Drikung Kaygu center near me and
                                      > > have become a member (taking formal refuge with
                                      > His
                                      > > Eminance Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche, last June).
                                      > > I was looking to change from Theravada because of
                                      > the
                                      > > lack of centers in my area, and I believed the
                                      > "Way of
                                      > > the Bodhisattava" is the best way.
                                      > >
                                      > > I hope this helps. I, no doubt, left out a few
                                      > things.
                                      > > Peace,
                                      > > Ken/ \
                                      > >
                                      > > --- Jim <jim@u...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > thanks Ken - but while you are on the subject -
                                      > what
                                      > > > are the
                                      > > > differences in those 3 paths of buddhism and why
                                      > did
                                      > > > you select
                                      > > > Tibetan buddhism as your path?
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > __________________________________________________
                                      > > Do You Yahoo!?
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                                      > protection around
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