Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Buddhism_101] Shrine

Expand Messages
  • vorian@mail.com
    I m sorry, I don t have one. I ve a simple concrete statue in the entryway garden at my home, and another (carved of wood) near the place where I do formal
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 30, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      I'm sorry, I don't have one. I've a simple concrete statue in the entryway garden at my home, and another (carved of wood) near the place where I do formal sitting meditation.
      Ken/
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: ironcatapiller@...
      Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 15:54:21 EDT
      To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Shrine

      > if someone has any ideas on a shrine,,,,, please email me personally. thank
      > you
      > j
    • Thubten Choepel
      Mattscheck wrote:So I feel I need to build my shrine to Buddha. I have been looking on line at things different sites say should be on the
      Message 2 of 22 , May 20, 2004
      • 0 Attachment


        Mattscheck <mattscheck@...> wrote:
        So I feel I need to build my shrine to Buddha. I have been looking on line at things different sites say should be on the shrine. Many sites say different things. I am assuming it is a personal choice. How do you know you have made sure you have paid homage enough to Buddha with your shrine? With everything I  have seen, I could cover my whole kitchen table, and husband would not be all to happy with that one, all ready not to happy about my where this  path is taking me.
         
         
        Dianna
         
         
        I used a bookcase type thing.  It gives me room to set up my 3 jewels, water bowls and place all my Dharma texts in a place of respect.
         
        It's also easy to set up and mobile.
         
        It all depends on what you want.
         
        Remember, visualising the offerings is also a key component.  Buddhism is about taming the mind and opening the heart.  (I think so anyway)  So a lot of what we do, ritual or otherwise is to help our own mind.
         
        Health and Happiness to all beings (yourself included)
         
        Chris (Thubten Choepel)
         



        Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
      • Katinka Hesselink
        Dianna, For what it s worth, the Buddha didn t ask for devotion. (see the Kalama Sutra: http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/kalama.html ) He asked people to
        Message 3 of 22 , May 21, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          Dianna,

          For what it's worth, the Buddha didn't ask for devotion. (see the
          Kalama Sutra: http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/kalama.html ) He
          asked people to think about what he said and see for themselves if it
          were true. If they judged it useful, he wanted them to practice. So I
          don't think the Buddha cares about your shrine, but about your
          practice and insight.

          Still, as Thubten suggested, as far as devotion goes - it must be the
          spirit that counts. And a simple flower can be more of a token of a
          truly religious spirit than an elaborate shrine that is there mainly
          to impress guests and serve as a talking point at parties.

          When (after) you die, you won't take the shrine with you, but you will
          still be stuck with the fruits of your consciousness.

          Katinka
          --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, Thubten Choepel
          <thubten_choepel@y...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Mattscheck <mattscheck@c...> wrote:So I feel I need to build my
          shrine to Buddha. I have been looking on line at things different
          sites say should be on the shrine. Many sites say different things. I
          am assuming it is a personal choice. How do you know you have made
          sure you have paid homage enough to Buddha with your shrine? With
          everything I have seen, I could cover my whole kitchen table, and
          husband would not be all to happy with that one, all ready not to
          happy about my where this path is taking me.
          >
          >
          > Dianna
          >
          >
          >
          > I used a bookcase type thing. It gives me room to set up my 3
          jewels, water bowls and place all my Dharma texts in a place of respect.
          >
          > It's also easy to set up and mobile.
          >
          > It all depends on what you want.
          >
          > Remember, visualising the offerings is also a key component.
          Buddhism is about taming the mind and opening the heart. (I think so
          anyway) So a lot of what we do, ritual or otherwise is to help our
          own mind.
          >
          > Health and Happiness to all beings (yourself included)
          >
          > Chris (Thubten Choepel)
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhism_101/
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
        • vorian@mail.com
          You are so correct, Katinka. But, you also, I think maybe, could be misjudging Dianna s purpose for the shrine. I belong to a Vajrayana lay-sangha and there
          Message 4 of 22 , May 22, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            You are so correct, Katinka. But, you also, I think maybe, could be misjudging Dianna's purpose for the shrine. I belong to a Vajrayana lay-sangha and there (at the Dharma center) is a wonderful shrine to the Shakyamuni Buddha and to Green Tara. Although, many prostrate in front of this shrine I would not presume to tell them that there devotion in front of that shrine is useless or is only done to impress others.
            Many, especially stream enterers, need, a place they can designate and the ritual that attends it, to help them on the path. Though the shrine is ultimately empty, as is the practice, they both serve a purpose to those who use them.
            Ken/
            P.S.
            I thank you for the effort you put into your site. Hopefully, it will bring more to the path of truth.
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Katinka Hesselink" <mail@...>
            Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 06:21:32 -0000
            To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Shrine

            > Dianna,
            >
            > For what it's worth, the Buddha didn't ask for devotion. (see the
            > Kalama Sutra: http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/kalama.html ) He
            > asked people to think about what he said and see for themselves if it
            > were true. If they judged it useful, he wanted them to practice. So I
            > don't think the Buddha cares about your shrine, but about your
            > practice and insight.
            >
            > Still, as Thubten suggested, as far as devotion goes - it must be the
            > spirit that counts. And a simple flower can be more of a token of a
            > truly religious spirit than an elaborate shrine that is there mainly
            > to impress guests and serve as a talking point at parties.
            >
            > When (after) you die, you won't take the shrine with you, but you will
            > still be stuck with the fruits of your consciousness.
            >
            > Katinka
            > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, Thubten Choepel
            > <thubten_choepel@y...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Mattscheck <mattscheck@c...> wrote:So I feel I need to build my
            > shrine to Buddha. I have been looking on line at things different
            > sites say should be on the shrine. Many sites say different things. I
            > am assuming it is a personal choice. How do you know you have made
            > sure you have paid homage enough to Buddha with your shrine? With
            > everything I have seen, I could cover my whole kitchen table, and
            > husband would not be all to happy with that one, all ready not to
            > happy about my where this path is taking me.
            > >
            > >
            > > Dianna
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > I used a bookcase type thing. It gives me room to set up my 3
            > jewels, water bowls and place all my Dharma texts in a place of respect.
            > >
            > > It's also easy to set up and mobile.
            > >
            > > It all depends on what you want.
            > >
            > > Remember, visualising the offerings is also a key component.
            > Buddhism is about taming the mind and opening the heart. (I think so
            > anyway) So a lot of what we do, ritual or otherwise is to help our
            > own mind.
            > >
            > > Health and Happiness to all beings (yourself included)
            > >
            > > Chris (Thubten Choepel)
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhism_101/
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
            >



            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            The Middle Way in all things,
            including the Middle Way.
          • Katinka Hesselink
            Hi Ken, I don t presume to judge anybody. True devotion is a force in itself and can be of help on the path, I m sure of it (though misdirected it can lead one
            Message 5 of 22 , May 22, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Ken,

              I don't presume to judge anybody. True devotion is a force in itself
              and can be of help on the path, I'm sure of it (though misdirected it
              can lead one astray as well). My main point was that the shrine isn't
              what matters, it's the attitude brought to the shrine. I think it's a
              Zen saying that 'before enlightenment, some come to scoff, others to
              pray - after enlightenment, some scoff, others pray' [at schrines]. As
              long as we agree that there is an element of the unreal in
              temple-worship, as well as something 'real', then we aren't really in
              disagreement. The problem comes when either aspect is denied. For
              instance if the outer is thought to be important, a question like
              Dianna's may easily come up, because if the outer is important: how
              should I best make my shrine? But if it's the inner that matters
              Dianna is free to make her shrine into something that seems
              appropriate for her, in her circumstances and she will (hopefully)
              feel free to discover for herself what works.

              Could you explain the term stream enterer for me? For me that term
              designates somebody so firmly on the path that they would not need
              external aids (like shrines) - apparently, from the below, your
              definition is different.

              Katinka
              --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, vorian@m... wrote:
              > You are so correct, Katinka. But, you also, I think maybe, could be
              misjudging Dianna's purpose for the shrine. I belong to a Vajrayana
              lay-sangha and there (at the Dharma center) is a wonderful shrine to
              the Shakyamuni Buddha and to Green Tara. Although, many prostrate in
              front of this shrine I would not presume to tell them that there
              devotion in front of that shrine is useless or is only done to impress
              others.
              > Many, especially stream enterers, need, a place they can designate
              and the ritual that attends it, to help them on the path. Though the
              shrine is ultimately empty, as is the practice, they both serve a
              purpose to those who use them.
              > Ken/
              > P.S.
              > I thank you for the effort you put into your site. Hopefully, it
              will bring more to the path of truth.
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Katinka Hesselink" <mail@k...>
              > Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 06:21:32 -0000
              > To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Shrine
              >
              > > Dianna,
              > >
              > > For what it's worth, the Buddha didn't ask for devotion. (see the
              > > Kalama Sutra: http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/kalama.html ) He
              > > asked people to think about what he said and see for themselves if it
              > > were true. If they judged it useful, he wanted them to practice. So I
              > > don't think the Buddha cares about your shrine, but about your
              > > practice and insight.
              > >
              > > Still, as Thubten suggested, as far as devotion goes - it must be the
              > > spirit that counts. And a simple flower can be more of a token of a
              > > truly religious spirit than an elaborate shrine that is there mainly
              > > to impress guests and serve as a talking point at parties.
              > >
              > > When (after) you die, you won't take the shrine with you, but you will
              > > still be stuck with the fruits of your consciousness.
              > >
              > > Katinka
              > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, Thubten Choepel
              > > <thubten_choepel@y...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Mattscheck <mattscheck@c...> wrote:So I feel I need to build my
              > > shrine to Buddha. I have been looking on line at things different
              > > sites say should be on the shrine. Many sites say different things. I
              > > am assuming it is a personal choice. How do you know you have made
              > > sure you have paid homage enough to Buddha with your shrine? With
              > > everything I have seen, I could cover my whole kitchen table, and
              > > husband would not be all to happy with that one, all ready not to
              > > happy about my where this path is taking me.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Dianna
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > I used a bookcase type thing. It gives me room to set up my 3
              > > jewels, water bowls and place all my Dharma texts in a place of
              respect.
              > > >
              > > > It's also easy to set up and mobile.
              > > >
              > > > It all depends on what you want.
              > > >
              > > > Remember, visualising the offerings is also a key component.
              > > Buddhism is about taming the mind and opening the heart. (I think so
              > > anyway) So a lot of what we do, ritual or otherwise is to help our
              > > own mind.
              > > >
              > > > Health and Happiness to all beings (yourself included)
              > > >
              > > > Chris (Thubten Choepel)
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ---------------------------------
              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > >
              > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhism_101/
              > > >
              > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > > Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > >
              > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              Service.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ---------------------------------
              > > > Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              > The Middle Way in all things,
              > including the Middle Way.
            • Charles M. Crist
              The only thing I got from the original question is what was appropriate in building a shrine and what is the basics of putting one together so as not to have
              Message 6 of 22 , May 22, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Ken,

                I don't presume to judge anybody. True devotion is a force in itself
                and can be of help on the path, I'm sure of it (though misdirected it
                can lead one astray as well). My main point was that the shrine isn't
                what matters, it's the attitude brought to the shrine. I think it's a
                Zen saying that 'before enlightenment, some come to scoff, others to
                pray - after enlightenment, some scoff, others pray' [at schrines]. As
                long as we agree that there is an element of the unreal in
                temple-worship, as well as something 'real', then we aren't really in
                disagreement. The problem comes when either aspect is denied. For
                instance if the outer is thought to be important, a question like
                Dianna's may easily come up, because if the outer is important: how
                should I best make my shrine? But if it's the inner that matters
                Dianna is free to make her shrine into something that seems
                appropriate for her, in her circumstances and she will (hopefully)
                feel free to discover for herself what works.

                Could you explain the term stream enterer for me? For me that term
                designates somebody so firmly on the path that they would not need
                external aids (like shrines) - apparently, from the below, your
                definition is different.

                Katinka
                --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, vorian@m... wrote:
                > You are so correct, Katinka. But, you also, I think maybe, could be
                misjudging Dianna's purpose for the shrine. I belong to a Vajrayana
                lay-sangha and there (at the Dharma center) is a wonderful shrine to
                the Shakyamuni Buddha and to Green Tara. Although, many prostrate in
                front of this shrine I would not presume to tell them that there
                devotion in front of that shrine is useless or is only done to impress
                others.
                > Many, especially stream enterers, need, a place they can designate
                and the ritual that attends it, to help them on the path. Though the
                shrine is ultimately empty, as is the practice, they both serve a
                purpose to those who use them.
                > Ken/
                > P.S.
                > I thank you for the effort you put into your site. Hopefully, it
                will bring more to the path of truth.
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Katinka Hesselink" <mail@k...>
                > Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 06:21:32 -0000
                > To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Shrine
                >
                > > Dianna,
                > >
                > > For what it's worth, the Buddha didn't ask for devotion. (see the
                > > Kalama Sutra: http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/kalama.html ) He
                > > asked people to think about what he said and see for themselves if it
                > > were true. If they judged it useful, he wanted them to practice. So I
                > > don't think the Buddha cares about your shrine, but about your
                > > practice and insight.
                > >
                > > Still, as Thubten suggested, as far as devotion goes - it must be the
                > > spirit that counts. And a simple flower can be more of a token of a
                > > truly religious spirit than an elaborate shrine that is there mainly
                > > to impress guests and serve as a talking point at parties.
                > >
                > > When (after) you die, you won't take the shrine with you, but you will
                > > still be stuck with the fruits of your consciousness.
                > >
                > > Katinka
                > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, Thubten Choepel
                > > <thubten_choepel@y...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Mattscheck <mattscheck@c...> wrote:So I feel I need to build my
                > > shrine to Buddha. I have been looking on line at things different
                > > sites say should be on the shrine. Many sites say different things. I
                > > am assuming it is a personal choice. How do you know you have made
                > > sure you have paid homage enough to Buddha with your shrine? With
                > > everything I  have seen, I could cover my whole kitchen table, and
                > > husband would not be all to happy with that one, all ready not to
                > > happy about my where this  path is taking me.
                > > > 
                > > > 
                > > > Dianna
                > > >
                > > > 
                > > > 
                > > > I used a bookcase type thing.  It gives me room to set up my 3
                > > jewels, water bowls and place all my Dharma texts in a place of
                respect.
                > > > 
                > > > It's also easy to set up and mobile.
                > > > 
                > > > It all depends on what you want.
                > > > 
                > > > Remember, visualising the offerings is also a key component.
                > > Buddhism is about taming the mind and opening the heart.  (I think so
                > > anyway)  So a lot of what we do, ritual or otherwise is to help our
                > > own mind.
                > > > 
                > > > Health and Happiness to all beings (yourself included)
                > > > 
                > > > Chris (Thubten Choepel)
                > > > 
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ---------------------------------
                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > >
                > > >    To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhism_101/
                > > >  
                > > >    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > > Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > >  
                > > >    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ---------------------------------
                > > > Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                > The Middle Way in all things,
                > including the Middle Way.


              • vorian@mail.com
                ... I agree. ... I don t disagree with what you have said. I just thought that your reply to Dianne s message a little harsh considering her newness to the
                Message 7 of 22 , May 22, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  >From: "Katinka Hesselink" <mail@...>
                  >Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 15:10:45 -0000
                  >To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Shrine

                  > Hi Ken,
                  >
                  > I don't presume to judge anybody. True devotion is a force in itself
                  > and can be of help on the path, I'm sure of it (though misdirected it
                  > can lead one astray as well). My main point was that the shrine isn't
                  > what matters, it's the attitude brought to the shrine.

                  I agree.

                  > I think it's a
                  > Zen saying that 'before enlightenment, some come to scoff, others to
                  > pray - after enlightenment, some scoff, others pray' [at schrines]. As
                  > long as we agree that there is an element of the unreal in
                  > temple-worship, as well as something 'real', then we aren't really in
                  > disagreement. The problem comes when either aspect is denied. For
                  > instance if the outer is thought to be important, a question like
                  > Dianna's may easily come up, because if the outer is important: how
                  > should I best make my shrine? But if it's the inner that matters
                  > Dianna is free to make her shrine into something that seems
                  > appropriate for her, in her circumstances and she will (hopefully)
                  > feel free to discover for herself what works.

                  I don't disagree with what you have said. I just thought that your reply to Dianne's message a little harsh considering her newness to the path and, without the help of a teacher, her attempts to find her way. I disagreed less with what you said then as to how you pointed it out.

                  >
                  > Could you explain the term stream enterer for me? For me that term
                  > designates somebody so firmly on the path that they would not need
                  > external aids (like shrines) - apparently, from the below, your
                  > definition is different.

                  The phrase was used by my Theravadan teacher as, "one who is entering the stream that will eventually end in enlightenment."

                  >
                  > Katinka


                  Namaste,
                  Ken/

                  > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, vorian@m... wrote:
                  > > You are so correct, Katinka. But, you also, I think maybe, could be
                  > misjudging Dianna's purpose for the shrine. I belong to a Vajrayana
                  > lay-sangha and there (at the Dharma center) is a wonderful shrine to
                  > the Shakyamuni Buddha and to Green Tara. Although, many prostrate in
                  > front of this shrine I would not presume to tell them that there
                  > devotion in front of that shrine is useless or is only done to impress
                  > others.
                  > > Many, especially stream enterers, need, a place they can designate
                  > and the ritual that attends it, to help them on the path. Though the
                  > shrine is ultimately empty, as is the practice, they both serve a
                  > purpose to those who use them.
                  > > Ken/
                  > > P.S.
                  > > I thank you for the effort you put into your site. Hopefully, it
                  > will bring more to the path of truth.
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: "Katinka Hesselink" <mail@k...>
                  > > Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 06:21:32 -0000
                  > > To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Shrine
                  > >
                  > > > Dianna,
                  > > >
                  > > > For what it's worth, the Buddha didn't ask for devotion. (see the
                  > > > Kalama Sutra: http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/kalama.html ) He
                  > > > asked people to think about what he said and see for themselves if it
                  > > > were true. If they judged it useful, he wanted them to practice. So I
                  > > > don't think the Buddha cares about your shrine, but about your
                  > > > practice and insight.
                  > > >
                  > > > Still, as Thubten suggested, as far as devotion goes - it must be the
                  > > > spirit that counts. And a simple flower can be more of a token of a
                  > > > truly religious spirit than an elaborate shrine that is there mainly
                  > > > to impress guests and serve as a talking point at parties.
                  > > >
                  > > > When (after) you die, you won't take the shrine with you, but you will
                  > > > still be stuck with the fruits of your consciousness.
                  > > >
                  > > > Katinka
                  > > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, Thubten Choepel
                  > > > <thubten_choepel@y...> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Mattscheck <mattscheck@c...> wrote:So I feel I need to build my
                  > > > shrine to Buddha. I have been looking on line at things different
                  > > > sites say should be on the shrine. Many sites say different things. I
                  > > > am assuming it is a personal choice. How do you know you have made
                  > > > sure you have paid homage enough to Buddha with your shrine? With
                  > > > everything I have seen, I could cover my whole kitchen table, and
                  > > > husband would not be all to happy with that one, all ready not to
                  > > > happy about my where this path is taking me.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Dianna
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I used a bookcase type thing. It gives me room to set up my 3
                  > > > jewels, water bowls and place all my Dharma texts in a place of
                  > respect.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > It's also easy to set up and mobile.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > It all depends on what you want.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Remember, visualising the offerings is also a key component.
                  > > > Buddhism is about taming the mind and opening the heart. (I think so
                  > > > anyway) So a lot of what we do, ritual or otherwise is to help our
                  > > > own mind.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Health and Happiness to all beings (yourself included)
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Chris (Thubten Choepel)
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ---------------------------------
                  > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > > >
                  > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddhism_101/
                  > > > >
                  > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > > > Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > Service.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ---------------------------------
                  > > > > Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  > > The Middle Way in all things,
                  > > including the Middle Way.
                  >



                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  The Middle Way in all things,
                  including the Middle Way.
                • Katinka Hesselink
                  Hi all, Well, I guess I don t tiptoe around issues. I do hope Dianna wasn t offended. As for the stream enterer definition - I guess that helps a bit. one who
                  Message 8 of 22 , May 22, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi all,

                    Well, I guess I don't tiptoe around issues. I do hope Dianna wasn't
                    offended.

                    As for the stream enterer definition - I guess that helps a bit. "one
                    who is entering the stream that will eventually end in enlightenment."

                    For that to be true there has to be an inner drive to find
                    enlightenment (and help all sentient beings). Otherwise the path may
                    seem to be entered in this life, but in a next lifetime it will be
                    left again. A stream enterer is then one who has faced up to the
                    issues related to selfishness and vowed to cleanse that. If not, the
                    stream isn't really entered and ultimate enlightenment not sure. So a
                    stream enterer is very different from somebody who feels attracted to
                    Buddhism and tries out its teachings and practices (not that there is
                    anything wrong with that - it will at least help cleanse karma and
                    that in itself can help one clear the mind to such an extent that one
                    may enter the stream in a next life).

                    May you reach the terrace of enlightenment,
                    Katinka
                    --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, vorian@m... wrote:

                    > I don't disagree with what you have said. I just thought that your
                    reply to Dianne's message a little harsh considering her newness to
                    the path and, without the help of a teacher, her attempts to find her
                    way. I disagreed less with what you said then as to how you pointed it
                    out.
                    >
                    > >
                    > > Could you explain the term stream enterer for me? For me that term
                    > > designates somebody so firmly on the path that they would not need
                    > > external aids (like shrines) - apparently, from the below, your
                    > > definition is different.
                    >
                    > The phrase was used by my Theravadan teacher as, "one who is
                    entering the stream that will eventually end in enlightenment."
                    >
                    > >
                    > > Katinka
                  • vorian@mail.com
                    ... No, you don t tiptoe, but that is good. My wife is like that. One always knows where one stands around a person that thinks like you do. I don t think
                    Message 9 of 22 , May 23, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      >From: "Katinka Hesselink" <mail@...>
                      >Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 06:28:46 -0000
                      >To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Shrine / Stream Enterer

                      Katinka wrote:
                      > Hi all,
                      >
                      > Well, I guess I don't tiptoe around issues. I do hope Dianna wasn't
                      > offended.

                      No, you don't tiptoe, but that is good. My wife is like that. One always knows where one stands around a person that thinks like you do. I don't think anyone was offended, perhaps this will open the thinking of all considering a shrine.

                      >
                      > As for the stream enterer definition - I guess that helps a bit. "one
                      > who is entering the stream that will eventually end in enlightenment."

                      I will not use that phrase again, in this context, if it causes confusion.

                      >
                      > For that to be true there has to be an inner drive to find
                      > enlightenment (and help all sentient beings).

                      "(and help all sentient beings)" in the Mahayana traditions only.

                      > Otherwise the path may
                      > seem to be entered in this life, but in a next lifetime it will be
                      > left again. A stream enterer is then one who has faced up to the
                      > issues related to selfishness and vowed to cleanse that. If not, the
                      > stream isn't really entered and ultimate enlightenment not sure. So a
                      > stream enterer is very different from somebody who feels attracted to
                      > Buddhism and tries out its teachings and practices (not that there is
                      > anything wrong with that - it will at least help cleanse karma and
                      > that in itself can help one clear the mind to such an extent that one
                      > may enter the stream in a next life).

                      If one is not born in an environment where the teachings of the Buddha dominate, sometimes, the only contact with it is, first, a superficial one. That opens the eyes. It is worthwhile and brings the teachings to light.

                      I see your point, but I think we are in danger of leaving the path in each life. In fact we are in danger of leaving the path many many times in each life. The auspiciousness of finding the path in this life may not be possible in the next. In fact, if one is born into another lower (or higher) realm, or in a time where the Dharma is not taught, the path may not be available at all. That is why study and meditation are so important here and now.

                      I hope we have many more discussions. I have enjoyed this. Part of Buddhism, especially Tibetan, is debate. I never was good at it, but I do enjoy discussing and I believe I have an open mind to others ideas.


                      >
                      > May you reach the terrace of enlightenment,
                      > Katinka

                      Namaste,
                      Ken/


                      > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, vorian@m... wrote:
                      >
                      > > I don't disagree with what you have said. I just thought that your
                      > reply to Dianne's message a little harsh considering her newness to
                      > the path and, without the help of a teacher, her attempts to find her
                      > way. I disagreed less with what you said then as to how you pointed it
                      > out.
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Could you explain the term stream enterer for me? For me that term
                      > > > designates somebody so firmly on the path that they would not need
                      > > > external aids (like shrines) - apparently, from the below, your
                      > > > definition is different.
                      > >
                      > > The phrase was used by my Theravadan teacher as, "one who is
                      > entering the stream that will eventually end in enlightenment."
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Katinka
                      >
                      >



                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                      The Middle Way in all things,
                      including the Middle Way.
                    • nrgtrakr
                      I too am curious about establishing a shrine as well as the significance of all of the items contained within one. I realize that the most important factor is
                      Message 10 of 22 , May 26, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I too am curious about establishing a shrine as well as the
                        significance of all of the items contained within one. I realize that
                        the most important factor is of course the love with which the shrine
                        is established, but just as learning the proper enuciation and metre
                        of a chant (no matter what language it is in, ex Tibetan or
                        Sanskrit), more fully empowers the chant and at the same time honors
                        the chant (which is a form of love, no?) - I am intersted in
                        establishing a shrine. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
                        Thank you, Gerry
                      • nrgtrakr
                        Hi Ken, So then following along those same lines you bring up below, would it not be a good and useful thing, especially for one new to the path, to have a
                        Message 11 of 22 , May 26, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Ken,

                          So then following along those same lines you bring up below, would it
                          not be a good and useful thing, especially for one new to the path,
                          to have a complete understanding of the nuances of establishing a
                          shrine, especially considering that one day the time will come (for
                          all of us) that the entire world will appear as a shrine? In the same
                          way as the "path" eventually becomes "no path", and even the journey
                          on the "path" must begin with the first step.

                          And if not, then why even bother with such fundemental practices as
                          meditation or contemplation of the Lam Rim? Could we not just decide
                          to have enough devotion to spontaneously attain enlightenment?

                          With Loving Kindness,
                          Gerry

                          --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, vorian@m... wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > >From: "Katinka Hesselink" <mail@k...>
                          > >Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 06:28:46 -0000
                          > >To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                          > >Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Shrine / Stream Enterer
                          >
                          > Katinka wrote:
                          > > Hi all,
                          > >
                          > > Well, I guess I don't tiptoe around issues. I do hope Dianna
                          wasn't
                          > > offended.
                          >
                          > No, you don't tiptoe, but that is good. My wife is like that. One
                          always knows where one stands around a person that thinks like you
                          do. I don't think anyone was offended, perhaps this will open the
                          thinking of all considering a shrine.
                          >
                          > >
                          > > As for the stream enterer definition - I guess that helps a
                          bit. "one
                          > > who is entering the stream that will eventually end in
                          enlightenment."
                          >
                          > I will not use that phrase again, in this context, if it causes
                          confusion.
                          >
                          > >
                          > > For that to be true there has to be an inner drive to find
                          > > enlightenment (and help all sentient beings).
                          >
                          > "(and help all sentient beings)" in the Mahayana traditions only.
                          >
                          > > Otherwise the path may
                          > > seem to be entered in this life, but in a next lifetime it will be
                          > > left again. A stream enterer is then one who has faced up to the
                          > > issues related to selfishness and vowed to cleanse that. If not,
                          the
                          > > stream isn't really entered and ultimate enlightenment not sure.
                          So a
                          > > stream enterer is very different from somebody who feels
                          attracted to
                          > > Buddhism and tries out its teachings and practices (not that
                          there is
                          > > anything wrong with that - it will at least help cleanse karma and
                          > > that in itself can help one clear the mind to such an extent that
                          one
                          > > may enter the stream in a next life).
                          >
                          > If one is not born in an environment where the teachings of the
                          Buddha dominate, sometimes, the only contact with it is, first, a
                          superficial one. That opens the eyes. It is worthwhile and brings the
                          teachings to light.
                          >
                          > I see your point, but I think we are in danger of leaving the path
                          in each life. In fact we are in danger of leaving the path many many
                          times in each life. The auspiciousness of finding the path in this
                          life may not be possible in the next. In fact, if one is born into
                          another lower (or higher) realm, or in a time where the Dharma is not
                          taught, the path may not be available at all. That is why study and
                          meditation are so important here and now.
                          >
                          > I hope we have many more discussions. I have enjoyed this. Part of
                          Buddhism, especially Tibetan, is debate. I never was good at it, but
                          I do enjoy discussing and I believe I have an open mind to others
                          ideas.
                          >
                          >
                          > >
                          > > May you reach the terrace of enlightenment,
                          > > Katinka
                          >
                          > Namaste,
                          > Ken/
                          >
                          >
                          > > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, vorian@m... wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > I don't disagree with what you have said. I just thought that
                          your
                          > > reply to Dianne's message a little harsh considering her newness
                          to
                          > > the path and, without the help of a teacher, her attempts to find
                          her
                          > > way. I disagreed less with what you said then as to how you
                          pointed it
                          > > out.
                          > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Could you explain the term stream enterer for me? For me that
                          term
                          > > > > designates somebody so firmly on the path that they would not
                          need
                          > > > > external aids (like shrines) - apparently, from the below,
                          your
                          > > > > definition is different.
                          > > >
                          > > > The phrase was used by my Theravadan teacher as, "one who is
                          > > entering the stream that will eventually end in enlightenment."
                          > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Katinka
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          > The Middle Way in all things,
                          > including the Middle Way.
                        • vorian@mail.com
                          ... From: nrgtrakr Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:23:56 -0000 To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Shrine / Stream
                          Message 12 of 22 , May 26, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "nrgtrakr" <nrgtrakr@...>
                            Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:23:56 -0000
                            To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Shrine / Stream Enterer

                            > Hi Ken,
                            >
                            > So then following along those same lines you bring up below, would it
                            > not be a good and useful thing, especially for one new to the path,
                            > to have a complete understanding of the nuances of establishing a
                            > shrine, especially considering that one day the time will come (for
                            > all of us) that the entire world will appear as a shrine? In the same
                            > way as the "path" eventually becomes "no path", and even the journey
                            > on the "path" must begin with the first step.

                            The Buddha had no shrine, realizing that a shrine and all that it represents are empty. But, if you feel one is necessary, go for it. I am not saying, "Don't have one." I am saying, "I don't find one, and the rituals associated with one, useful." But, that is me, not you.
                            Like I mentioned before, my sangha, in the meditation roon, has a shrine to Green Tara, the Sakyamuni Buddha, and our teacher Garchen Rinpoche. Some prostrate and pray before it. I enjoy the incense and candles and such, but it is just a thing that will eventually end up on a scrap heap or be ceremoniously burned or just fall away. It helps set the mood in the room, but means little else, to me.
                            As his student, I bow to Rinpoche in his presence, and offer him the utmost respect. I don't reify a picture of him or of the Dalai Lama, or a statue of the Buddha or one of Tara.
                            I keep a small statue of the Buddha near my computer (which is next to my meditaton cushion) and burn incense when I meditate because I like the smell and it helps set a mood. But, I don't need it and, more times than not, I forget to light the incense.
                            Please, check the sig below.

                            >
                            > And if not, then why even bother with such fundemental practices as
                            > meditation or contemplation of the Lam Rim? Could we not just decide
                            > to have enough devotion to spontaneously attain enlightenment?

                            Here, you are changing lanes very quickley. Meditation and the Lam Rim are not fundemental practices (unless you are already enlightened). If you practice, truely, your meditation will only become deeper and more powerful. You must get a teacher, though, or all of this is just a covering of the practice that lies behind.

                            >
                            > With Loving Kindness,
                            > Gerry

                            Namaste,
                            Ken/

                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                            Accept my words only when you have examined them for yourselves; do not accept them simply because of the reverence you have for me. Those who only have faith in me and affection for me will not find the final freedom. But those who have faith in the truth and are determined on the path, they will find awakening.

                            -Majjhima Nikaya-
                          • vorian@mail.com
                            ... From: nrgtrakr Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:23:56 -0000 To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Shrine / Stream
                            Message 13 of 22 , May 26, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "nrgtrakr" <nrgtrakr@...>
                              Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:23:56 -0000
                              To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Shrine / Stream Enterer

                              > Hi Ken,
                              >
                              > So then following along those same lines you bring up below, would it
                              > not be a good and useful thing, especially for one new to the path,
                              > to have a complete understanding of the nuances of establishing a
                              > shrine, especially considering that one day the time will come (for
                              > all of us) that the entire world will appear as a shrine? In the same
                              > way as the "path" eventually becomes "no path", and even the journey
                              > on the "path" must begin with the first step.

                              The Buddha had no shrine, realizing that a shrine and all that it represents are empty. But, if you feel one is necessary, go for it. I am not saying, "Don't have one." I am saying, "I don't find one, and the rituals associated with one, useful." But, that is me, not you.
                              Like I mentioned before, my sangha, in the meditation roon, has a shrine to Green Tara, the Sakyamuni Buddha, and our teacher Garchen Rinpoche. Some prostrate and pray before it. I enjoy the incense and candles and such, but it is just a thing that will eventually end up on a scrap heap or be ceremoniously burned or just fall away. It helps set the mood in the room, but means little else, to me.
                              As his student, I bow to Rinpoche in his presence, and offer him the utmost respect. I don't reify a picture of him or of the Dalai Lama, or a statue of the Buddha or one of Tara.
                              I keep a small statue of the Buddha near my computer (which is next to my meditaton cushion) and burn incense when I meditate because I like the smell and it helps set a mood. But, I don't need it and, more times than not, I forget to light the incense.
                              Please, check the sig below.

                              >
                              > And if not, then why even bother with such fundemental practices as
                              > meditation or contemplation of the Lam Rim? Could we not just decide
                              > to have enough devotion to spontaneously attain enlightenment?

                              Here, you are changing lanes very quickley. Meditation and the Lam Rim are not fundemental practices (unless you are already enlightened). If you practice, truely, your meditation will only become deeper and more powerful. You must get a teacher, though, or all of this is just a covering of the practice that lies behind.

                              >
                              > With Loving Kindness,
                              > Gerry

                              Namaste,
                              Ken/

                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              Accept my words only when you have examined them for yourselves; do not accept them simply because of the reverence you have for me. Those who only have faith in me and affection for me will not find the final freedom. But those who have faith in the truth and are determined on the path, they will find awakening.

                              -Majjhima Nikaya-
                            • nrgtrakr
                              So then why have any shrines at all, anywhere? ... would it ... path, ... (for ... same ... journey ... represents are empty. But, if you feel one is
                              Message 14 of 22 , May 26, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                So then why have any shrines at all, anywhere?

                                --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, vorian@m... wrote:
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "nrgtrakr" <nrgtrakr@y...>
                                > Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:23:56 -0000
                                > To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Shrine / Stream Enterer
                                >
                                > > Hi Ken,
                                > >
                                > > So then following along those same lines you bring up below,
                                would it
                                > > not be a good and useful thing, especially for one new to the
                                path,
                                > > to have a complete understanding of the nuances of establishing a
                                > > shrine, especially considering that one day the time will come
                                (for
                                > > all of us) that the entire world will appear as a shrine? In the
                                same
                                > > way as the "path" eventually becomes "no path", and even the
                                journey
                                > > on the "path" must begin with the first step.
                                >
                                > The Buddha had no shrine, realizing that a shrine and all that it
                                represents are empty. But, if you feel one is necessary, go for it. I
                                am not saying, "Don't have one." I am saying, "I don't find one, and
                                the rituals associated with one, useful." But, that is me, not you.
                                > Like I mentioned before, my sangha, in the meditation roon, has a
                                shrine to Green Tara, the Sakyamuni Buddha, and our teacher Garchen
                                Rinpoche. Some prostrate and pray before it. I enjoy the incense and
                                candles and such, but it is just a thing that will eventually end up
                                on a scrap heap or be ceremoniously burned or just fall away. It
                                helps set the mood in the room, but means little else, to me.
                                > As his student, I bow to Rinpoche in his presence, and offer him
                                the utmost respect. I don't reify a picture of him or of the Dalai
                                Lama, or a statue of the Buddha or one of Tara.
                                > I keep a small statue of the Buddha near my computer (which is next
                                to my meditaton cushion) and burn incense when I meditate because I
                                like the smell and it helps set a mood. But, I don't need it and,
                                more times than not, I forget to light the incense.
                                > Please, check the sig below.
                                >
                                > >
                                > > And if not, then why even bother with such fundemental practices
                                as
                                > > meditation or contemplation of the Lam Rim? Could we not just
                                decide
                                > > to have enough devotion to spontaneously attain enlightenment?
                                >
                                > Here, you are changing lanes very quickley. Meditation and the Lam
                                Rim are not fundemental practices (unless you are already
                                enlightened). If you practice, truely, your meditation will only
                                become deeper and more powerful. You must get a teacher, though, or
                                all of this is just a covering of the practice that lies behind.
                                >
                                > >
                                > > With Loving Kindness,
                                > > Gerry
                                >
                                > Namaste,
                                > Ken/
                                >
                                > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                > Accept my words only when you have examined them for yourselves; do
                                not accept them simply because of the reverence you have for me.
                                Those who only have faith in me and affection for me will not find
                                the final freedom. But those who have faith in the truth and are
                                determined on the path, they will find awakening.
                                >
                                > -Majjhima Nikaya-
                              • nancy lemke
                                ... i do not have a shrine either. i wouldn t know where to put one anyway. my family would have a lot of remarks if i did make one. what i have done is i got
                                Message 15 of 22 , May 26, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  ---
                                  i do not have a shrine either. i wouldn't know where to put one
                                  anyway. my family would have a lot of remarks if i did make one.
                                  what i have done is i got a terracotta buddha for my garden. it is
                                  so lovely and he is meditating. so, i put it on our coffee table on
                                  a doily and put my dorji and bell next to it. then i put my african
                                  violets all around on the table. simple but does set the mood for
                                  me and reminds me to stay in the moment and enjoy my life! hugs,
                                  nancy

                                  In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, vorian@m... wrote:
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: "nrgtrakr" <nrgtrakr@y...>
                                  > Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:23:56 -0000
                                  > To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Shrine / Stream Enterer
                                  >
                                  > > Hi Ken,
                                  > >
                                  > > So then following along those same lines you bring up below,
                                  would it
                                  > > not be a good and useful thing, especially for one new to the
                                  path,
                                  > > to have a complete understanding of the nuances of establishing
                                  a
                                  > > shrine, especially considering that one day the time will come
                                  (for
                                  > > all of us) that the entire world will appear as a shrine? In the
                                  same
                                  > > way as the "path" eventually becomes "no path", and even the
                                  journey
                                  > > on the "path" must begin with the first step.
                                  >
                                  > The Buddha had no shrine, realizing that a shrine and all that it
                                  represents are empty. But, if you feel one is necessary, go for it.
                                  I am not saying, "Don't have one." I am saying, "I don't find one,
                                  and the rituals associated with one, useful." But, that is me, not
                                  you.
                                  > Like I mentioned before, my sangha, in the meditation roon, has a
                                  shrine to Green Tara, the Sakyamuni Buddha, and our teacher Garchen
                                  Rinpoche. Some prostrate and pray before it. I enjoy the incense and
                                  candles and such, but it is just a thing that will eventually end up
                                  on a scrap heap or be ceremoniously burned or just fall away. It
                                  helps set the mood in the room, but means little else, to me.
                                  > As his student, I bow to Rinpoche in his presence, and offer him
                                  the utmost respect. I don't reify a picture of him or of the Dalai
                                  Lama, or a statue of the Buddha or one of Tara.
                                  > I keep a small statue of the Buddha near my computer (which is
                                  next to my meditaton cushion) and burn incense when I meditate
                                  because I like the smell and it helps set a mood. But, I don't need
                                  it and, more times than not, I forget to light the incense.
                                  > Please, check the sig below.
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > And if not, then why even bother with such fundemental practices
                                  as
                                  > > meditation or contemplation of the Lam Rim? Could we not just
                                  decide
                                  > > to have enough devotion to spontaneously attain enlightenment?
                                  >
                                  > Here, you are changing lanes very quickley. Meditation and the Lam
                                  Rim are not fundemental practices (unless you are already
                                  enlightened). If you practice, truely, your meditation will only
                                  become deeper and more powerful. You must get a teacher, though, or
                                  all of this is just a covering of the practice that lies behind.
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > With Loving Kindness,
                                  > > Gerry
                                  >
                                  > Namaste,
                                  > Ken/
                                  >
                                  > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                  > Accept my words only when you have examined them for yourselves;
                                  do not accept them simply because of the reverence you have for me.
                                  Those who only have faith in me and affection for me will not find
                                  the final freedom. But those who have faith in the truth and are
                                  determined on the path, they will find awakening.
                                  >
                                  > -Majjhima Nikaya-
                                • vorian@mail.com
                                  Good question. It s for thise that need, or want them. Ken/ ... From: nrgtrakr Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 15:25:56 -0000 To:
                                  Message 16 of 22 , May 26, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Good question. It's for thise that need, or want them.
                                    Ken/
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "nrgtrakr" <nrgtrakr@...>
                                    Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 15:25:56 -0000
                                    To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Shrine / Stream Enterer

                                    > So then why have any shrines at all, anywhere?
                                    >
                                    > --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, vorian@m... wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: "nrgtrakr" <nrgtrakr@y...>
                                    > > Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:23:56 -0000
                                    > > To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Shrine / Stream Enterer
                                    > >
                                    > > > Hi Ken,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > So then following along those same lines you bring up below,
                                    > would it
                                    > > > not be a good and useful thing, especially for one new to the
                                    > path,
                                    > > > to have a complete understanding of the nuances of establishing a
                                    > > > shrine, especially considering that one day the time will come
                                    > (for
                                    > > > all of us) that the entire world will appear as a shrine? In the
                                    > same
                                    > > > way as the "path" eventually becomes "no path", and even the
                                    > journey
                                    > > > on the "path" must begin with the first step.
                                    > >
                                    > > The Buddha had no shrine, realizing that a shrine and all that it
                                    > represents are empty. But, if you feel one is necessary, go for it. I
                                    > am not saying, "Don't have one." I am saying, "I don't find one, and
                                    > the rituals associated with one, useful." But, that is me, not you.
                                    > > Like I mentioned before, my sangha, in the meditation roon, has a
                                    > shrine to Green Tara, the Sakyamuni Buddha, and our teacher Garchen
                                    > Rinpoche. Some prostrate and pray before it. I enjoy the incense and
                                    > candles and such, but it is just a thing that will eventually end up
                                    > on a scrap heap or be ceremoniously burned or just fall away. It
                                    > helps set the mood in the room, but means little else, to me.
                                    > > As his student, I bow to Rinpoche in his presence, and offer him
                                    > the utmost respect. I don't reify a picture of him or of the Dalai
                                    > Lama, or a statue of the Buddha or one of Tara.
                                    > > I keep a small statue of the Buddha near my computer (which is next
                                    > to my meditaton cushion) and burn incense when I meditate because I
                                    > like the smell and it helps set a mood. But, I don't need it and,
                                    > more times than not, I forget to light the incense.
                                    > > Please, check the sig below.
                                    > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > And if not, then why even bother with such fundemental practices
                                    > as
                                    > > > meditation or contemplation of the Lam Rim? Could we not just
                                    > decide
                                    > > > to have enough devotion to spontaneously attain enlightenment?
                                    > >
                                    > > Here, you are changing lanes very quickley. Meditation and the Lam
                                    > Rim are not fundemental practices (unless you are already
                                    > enlightened). If you practice, truely, your meditation will only
                                    > become deeper and more powerful. You must get a teacher, though, or
                                    > all of this is just a covering of the practice that lies behind.
                                    > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > With Loving Kindness,
                                    > > > Gerry
                                    > >
                                    > > Namaste,
                                    > > Ken/
                                    > >
                                    > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                    > > Accept my words only when you have examined them for yourselves; do
                                    > not accept them simply because of the reverence you have for me.
                                    > Those who only have faith in me and affection for me will not find
                                    > the final freedom. But those who have faith in the truth and are
                                    > determined on the path, they will find awakening.
                                    > >
                                    > > -Majjhima Nikaya-
                                    >



                                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                    Accept my words only when you have examined them for yourselves; do not accept them simply because of the reverence you have for me. Those who only have faith in me and affection for me will not find the final freedom. But those who have faith in the truth and are determined on the path, they will find awakening.

                                    -Majjhima Nikaya-
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.