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Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering

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  • Elizabeth Boswell
    So far I have not posted about this, because I am so new here. But I need to take exception here. His Holiness the Dalai Lama stated that the point of Buddism
    Message 1 of 22 , Jul 13, 2009
      So far I have not posted about this, because I am so new here. But I need to take exception here. His Holiness the Dalai Lama stated that the point of Buddism is "to be happy and to make others happy", so I don't see how everything we experience can be suffering.
       
      We do suffer, yes, when our ego tries to tell us that something is inherently good or bad and we attach ourselves to it as such. This causes either lust or anger, causing suffering. Please see "How to see yourself as you really are" by H. H. the fourtenth Dalai Lama.
       
      Thank you,
      Beth

      --- On Sun, 7/12/09, Delec Delec <delec63@...> wrote:

      From: Delec Delec <delec63@...>
      Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
      To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 PM

      Hiya Donna
      To clarify, everything that we experience, pain pleasure or whatever, is by its very nature suffering.
      This is explained in the 1st of The 4 Noble Truths, the truth of suffering
      which has 3 levels, the "suffering of suffering", the "suffering of change" and the "pervasive suffering of conditioning"
      Clear as mud eh ?
      This 1st level explains clearly Jades point/question, if she has one !
      I dont think there is any benefit to be gained by over complicating an already profound teaching, the 4 noble truths
      Your thoughts ?
      xxx
      --- On Sun, 12/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com> wrote:

      From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>
      Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
      To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Sunday, 12 July, 2009, 5:36 PM

      So, would we all agree that pain is objective but suffereing is subjective?
       
      Perhaps we could say that suffering is what ever process that one goes through while dealing with whatever pain one is feeling? Does that sound right?

      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
      Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


      --- On Sun, 7/12/09, delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

      From: delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
      Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
      To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 AM

      --- In Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com, Jade <collies85@. ..> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hi Tara, Everyone,
      >
      > I got to thinking that after you feel pain you end up suffering from that pain. There are different kinds of suffering too. Of course there are different pains too. But, suffering to me is the result of pain.
      >
      > Greetings,
      >
      > Jade

      Jade
      Having taken into account that this group is intended for us newbies to get a grip on basic Buddhist concepts, i still find some of your posts a little...er, well you know ?
      Lord Buddhas first teaching, or the first turning of the wheel of Dharma was about The Four Noble Truth.

      1. the truth of suffering.
      2. the truth of its origin.
      3. the truth of its cessation.
      4. the truth of the path that leads to its cessation.

      These truths form the basic structure for Buddhist practice.
      Refering back to the 1st NT, Buddha taught that suffering has to be recognised and identified as suffering and that there are 3 levels of suffering. The first one being the "suffering of suffering", which refers to the self evident suffering of pain, physical or emotional
      The Four Noble Truths are something i think you should investigate and study, as i try to do, and you may be able to answer some of your own questions and understand other peoples responses.
      I really do not think that posting random quotes, that you feel to be relevent helps anybodies understanding.
      I hope this helps
      Steve

      >




    • Delec Delec
      Er......yeah. LOL xxx ... From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdancing@ya Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering To:
      Message 2 of 22 , Jul 13, 2009
        Er......yeah.
        LOL
        xxx

        --- On Mon, 13/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdancing@ya <fishycrackers99@...> wrote:

        From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdancing@ya <fishycrackers99@...>
        Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
        To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, 13 July, 2009, 2:50 PM

        To clarify, everything that we experience, pain pleasure or whatever, is by its very nature suffering.
         
        Ah; so, English and Tibetan (*Sanskrit,etc) do have something in common!  Sometimes terms need clarification, and you have done so, admirably. 
         
         Suffering, in this sense, is used in the same sense as more traditional English, "He suffered her to come nigh onto...",  is is an admirable and pithy form of The  English language which was once spoken in  that land, one with which  I am only somewhat familiar, what with it  not having much appeared in  text since around the time of King James, give or take a generation or so.  English was spoken a good deal more to the point in those days.  It is a pity that it has gone out of fashion!   Hm mm, perhaps that is why it has gone out of fashion, since it does not, lol,  suit-up well with the communications needs of commerce, advertising or detente. It does not, lol,  fad-ilitate these pursuits (facilitation under the ever-more-rapidly- changing modern lingual paradigm[s] we employ these days).
         
        to suffer= to bear; to bear-up; to bear-up under; to allow.  Yeah, when I think of the term suffering in that light, the ancient texts make much more sense. 
         
        When I see the the text in the light of that form of English, these concepts leap off the page  in all their ancient wisdom. To suffer is used in the sense of "to bear", here, as in  all 
        the baggage we let ourselves carry about in our imperfection, no?

        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
        Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


        --- On Sun, 7/12/09, Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

        From: Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
        Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
        To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 2:04 PM

        Hiya Donna
        To clarify, everything that we experience, pain pleasure or whatever, is by its very nature suffering.
        This is explained in the 1st of The 4 Noble Truths, the truth of suffering
        which has 3 levels, the "suffering of suffering", the "suffering of change" and the "pervasive suffering of conditioning"
        Clear as mud eh ?
        This 1st level explains clearly Jades point/question, if she has one !
        I dont think there is any benefit to be gained by over complicating an already profound teaching, the 4 noble truths
        Your thoughts ?
        xxx
        --- On Sun, 12/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com> wrote:

        From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>
        Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
        To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Sunday, 12 July, 2009, 5:36 PM

        So, would we all agree that pain is objective but suffereing is subjective?
         
        Perhaps we could say that suffering is what ever process that one goes through while dealing with whatever pain one is feeling? Does that sound right?

        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
        Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


        --- On Sun, 7/12/09, delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

        From: delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
        Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
        To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 AM

        --- In Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com, Jade <collies85@. ..> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hi Tara, Everyone,
        >
        > I got to thinking that after you feel pain you end up suffering from that pain. There are different kinds of suffering too. Of course there are different pains too. But, suffering to me is the result of pain.
        >
        > Greetings,
        >
        > Jade

        Jade
        Having taken into account that this group is intended for us newbies to get a grip on basic Buddhist concepts, i still find some of your posts a little...er, well you know ?
        Lord Buddhas first teaching, or the first turning of the wheel of Dharma was about The Four Noble Truth.

        1. the truth of suffering.
        2. the truth of its origin.
        3. the truth of its cessation.
        4. the truth of the path that leads to its cessation.

        These truths form the basic structure for Buddhist practice.
        Refering back to the 1st NT, Buddha taught that suffering has to be recognised and identified as suffering and that there are 3 levels of suffering. The first one being the "suffering of suffering", which refers to the self evident suffering of pain, physical or emotional
        The Four Noble Truths are something i think you should investigate and study, as i try to do, and you may be able to answer some of your own questions and understand other peoples responses.
        I really do not think that posting random quotes, that you feel to be relevent helps anybodies understanding.
        I hope this helps
        Steve

        >





      • Delec Delec
        Hello Beth Its a really tricky one to understand isnt it.  I remember when i first heard the teachings on suffering, i was like hang on a minute, i see
        Message 3 of 22 , Jul 13, 2009
          Hello Beth
          Its a really tricky one to understand isnt it.  I remember when i first heard the teachings on suffering, i was like "hang on a minute, i see happiness everyday"
          But what is happiness ? Just the suffering of change, the second level of the first nobel truth as explained by His Holiness.  What we feel brings us happiness will lead to suffering.  A piece of chocolate makes us feel good, but 10 pieces of chocolate makes us feel sick.  If we investigate anything that we believe brings happiness, then surely the more we experience it then the happier we would become,  not true
          Nothing in samsara can be a true sourse of happiness
          Of course the point of Buddhism is to make us happy, by showing the way to escape from samsara,  which is suffering.  Why else would we want to escape this cycle of rebirth ? AKA liberation from suffering
          Thanks for joining in Beth,  do you think ive got it wrong?  it wouldnt be the first time !
          Much Love
          Steve

          --- On Mon, 13/7/09, Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@...> wrote:

          From: Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@...>
          Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
          To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, 13 July, 2009, 1:21 PM

          So far I have not posted about this, because I am so new here. But I need to take exception here. His Holiness the Dalai Lama stated that the point of Buddism is "to be happy and to make others happy", so I don't see how everything we experience can be suffering.
           
          We do suffer, yes, when our ego tries to tell us that something is inherently good or bad and we attach ourselves to it as such. This causes either lust or anger, causing suffering. Please see "How to see yourself as you really are" by H. H. the fourtenth Dalai Lama.
           
          Thank you,
          Beth

          --- On Sun, 7/12/09, Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

          From: Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
          Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
          To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
          Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 PM

          Hiya Donna
          To clarify, everything that we experience, pain pleasure or whatever, is by its very nature suffering.
          This is explained in the 1st of The 4 Noble Truths, the truth of suffering
          which has 3 levels, the "suffering of suffering", the "suffering of change" and the "pervasive suffering of conditioning"
          Clear as mud eh ?
          This 1st level explains clearly Jades point/question, if she has one !
          I dont think there is any benefit to be gained by over complicating an already profound teaching, the 4 noble truths
          Your thoughts ?
          xxx
          --- On Sun, 12/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com> wrote:

          From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>
          Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
          To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
          Date: Sunday, 12 July, 2009, 5:36 PM

          So, would we all agree that pain is objective but suffereing is subjective?
           
          Perhaps we could say that suffering is what ever process that one goes through while dealing with whatever pain one is feeling? Does that sound right?

          ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
          Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


          --- On Sun, 7/12/09, delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

          From: delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
          Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
          To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
          Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 AM

          --- In Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com, Jade <collies85@. ..> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi Tara, Everyone,
          >
          > I got to thinking that after you feel pain you end up suffering from that pain. There are different kinds of suffering too. Of course there are different pains too. But, suffering to me is the result of pain.
          >
          > Greetings,
          >
          > Jade

          Jade
          Having taken into account that this group is intended for us newbies to get a grip on basic Buddhist concepts, i still find some of your posts a little...er, well you know ?
          Lord Buddhas first teaching, or the first turning of the wheel of Dharma was about The Four Noble Truth.

          1. the truth of suffering.
          2. the truth of its origin.
          3. the truth of its cessation.
          4. the truth of the path that leads to its cessation.

          These truths form the basic structure for Buddhist practice.
          Refering back to the 1st NT, Buddha taught that suffering has to be recognised and identified as suffering and that there are 3 levels of suffering. The first one being the "suffering of suffering", which refers to the self evident suffering of pain, physical or emotional
          The Four Noble Truths are something i think you should investigate and study, as i try to do, and you may be able to answer some of your own questions and understand other peoples responses.
          I really do not think that posting random quotes, that you feel to be relevent helps anybodies understanding.
          I hope this helps
          Steve

          >





        • Elizabeth Boswell
          Hi Steve,   No, I think you have it on the nose. I guess that s what I was trying to say, it just didn t come out like that.   The idea that I have is that
          Message 4 of 22 , Jul 13, 2009
            Hi Steve,
             
            No, I think you have it on the nose. I guess that's what I was trying to say, it just didn't come out like that.
             
            The idea that I have is that we can avoid suffering (ie with the candy bars, which i love but I am diabetic) by seeing the material object and ourselves are we and they really are. We may think that the chocolate is a good thing, but upon closer examination, unless we attach our ego to that material thing and make it a desire, we can avoid some discomfort at least.
             
            What do you think? I am very, very new to Buddhism, have so much to learn and taking it a little step at a time. I would love to hear your response to this.
             
            Thanks for responding to my last post!
             
            Peace,
            Beth

            --- On Mon, 7/13/09, Delec Delec <delec63@...> wrote:

            From: Delec Delec <delec63@...>
            Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
            To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 2:28 PM

            Hello Beth
            Its a really tricky one to understand isnt it.  I remember when i first heard the teachings on suffering, i was like "hang on a minute, i see happiness everyday"
            But what is happiness ? Just the suffering of change, the second level of the first nobel truth as explained by His Holiness.  What we feel brings us happiness will lead to suffering.  A piece of chocolate makes us feel good, but 10 pieces of chocolate makes us feel sick.  If we investigate anything that we believe brings happiness, then surely the more we experience it then the happier we would become,  not true
            Nothing in samsara can be a true sourse of happiness
            Of course the point of Buddhism is to make us happy, by showing the way to escape from samsara,  which is suffering.  Why else would we want to escape this cycle of rebirth ? AKA liberation from suffering
            Thanks for joining in Beth,  do you think ive got it wrong?  it wouldnt be the first time !
            Much Love
            Steve

            --- On Mon, 13/7/09, Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@yahoo. com> wrote:

            From: Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@yahoo. com>
            Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
            To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
            Date: Monday, 13 July, 2009, 1:21 PM

            So far I have not posted about this, because I am so new here. But I need to take exception here. His Holiness the Dalai Lama stated that the point of Buddism is "to be happy and to make others happy", so I don't see how everything we experience can be suffering.
             
            We do suffer, yes, when our ego tries to tell us that something is inherently good or bad and we attach ourselves to it as such. This causes either lust or anger, causing suffering. Please see "How to see yourself as you really are" by H. H. the fourtenth Dalai Lama.
             
            Thank you,
            Beth

            --- On Sun, 7/12/09, Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

            From: Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
            Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
            To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
            Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 PM

            Hiya Donna
            To clarify, everything that we experience, pain pleasure or whatever, is by its very nature suffering.
            This is explained in the 1st of The 4 Noble Truths, the truth of suffering
            which has 3 levels, the "suffering of suffering", the "suffering of change" and the "pervasive suffering of conditioning"
            Clear as mud eh ?
            This 1st level explains clearly Jades point/question, if she has one !
            I dont think there is any benefit to be gained by over complicating an already profound teaching, the 4 noble truths
            Your thoughts ?
            xxx
            --- On Sun, 12/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com> wrote:

            From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>
            Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
            To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
            Date: Sunday, 12 July, 2009, 5:36 PM

            So, would we all agree that pain is objective but suffereing is subjective?
             
            Perhaps we could say that suffering is what ever process that one goes through while dealing with whatever pain one is feeling? Does that sound right?

            ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
            Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


            --- On Sun, 7/12/09, delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

            From: delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
            Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
            To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
            Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 AM

            --- In Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com, Jade <collies85@. ..> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hi Tara, Everyone,
            >
            > I got to thinking that after you feel pain you end up suffering from that pain. There are different kinds of suffering too. Of course there are different pains too. But, suffering to me is the result of pain.
            >
            > Greetings,
            >
            > Jade

            Jade
            Having taken into account that this group is intended for us newbies to get a grip on basic Buddhist concepts, i still find some of your posts a little...er, well you know ?
            Lord Buddhas first teaching, or the first turning of the wheel of Dharma was about The Four Noble Truth.

            1. the truth of suffering.
            2. the truth of its origin.
            3. the truth of its cessation.
            4. the truth of the path that leads to its cessation.

            These truths form the basic structure for Buddhist practice.
            Refering back to the 1st NT, Buddha taught that suffering has to be recognised and identified as suffering and that there are 3 levels of suffering. The first one being the "suffering of suffering", which refers to the self evident suffering of pain, physical or emotional
            The Four Noble Truths are something i think you should investigate and study, as i try to do, and you may be able to answer some of your own questions and understand other peoples responses.
            I really do not think that posting random quotes, that you feel to be relevent helps anybodies understanding.
            I hope this helps
            Steve

            >






          • Donna Barrera.Swirlsdancing@ya
            thank you, E.B., for your post.  you have a very grounded and centered perspective.
            Message 5 of 22 , Jul 13, 2009
              thank you, E.B., for your post.  you have a very grounded and centered perspective.

              ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
              Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


              --- On Mon, 7/13/09, Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@...> wrote:

              From: Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@...>
              Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
              To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 6:21 AM

              So far I have not posted about this, because I am so new here. But I need to take exception here. His Holiness the Dalai Lama stated that the point of Buddism is "to be happy and to make others happy", so I don't see how everything we experience can be suffering.
               
              We do suffer, yes, when our ego tries to tell us that something is inherently good or bad and we attach ourselves to it as such. This causes either lust or anger, causing suffering. Please see "How to see yourself as you really are" by H. H. the fourtenth Dalai Lama.
               
              Thank you,
              Beth

              --- On Sun, 7/12/09, Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

              From: Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
              Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
              To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
              Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 PM

              Hiya Donna
              To clarify, everything that we experience, pain pleasure or whatever, is by its very nature suffering.
              This is explained in the 1st of The 4 Noble Truths, the truth of suffering
              which has 3 levels, the "suffering of suffering", the "suffering of change" and the "pervasive suffering of conditioning"
              Clear as mud eh ?
              This 1st level explains clearly Jades point/question, if she has one !
              I dont think there is any benefit to be gained by over complicating an already profound teaching, the 4 noble truths
              Your thoughts ?
              xxx
              --- On Sun, 12/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com> wrote:

              From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>
              Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
              To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
              Date: Sunday, 12 July, 2009, 5:36 PM

              So, would we all agree that pain is objective but suffereing is subjective?
               
              Perhaps we could say that suffering is what ever process that one goes through while dealing with whatever pain one is feeling? Does that sound right?

              ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
              Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


              --- On Sun, 7/12/09, delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

              From: delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
              Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
              To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
              Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 AM

              --- In Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com, Jade <collies85@. ..> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi Tara, Everyone,
              >
              > I got to thinking that after you feel pain you end up suffering from that pain. There are different kinds of suffering too. Of course there are different pains too. But, suffering to me is the result of pain.
              >
              > Greetings,
              >
              > Jade

              Jade
              Having taken into account that this group is intended for us newbies to get a grip on basic Buddhist concepts, i still find some of your posts a little...er, well you know ?
              Lord Buddhas first teaching, or the first turning of the wheel of Dharma was about The Four Noble Truth.

              1. the truth of suffering.
              2. the truth of its origin.
              3. the truth of its cessation.
              4. the truth of the path that leads to its cessation.

              These truths form the basic structure for Buddhist practice.
              Refering back to the 1st NT, Buddha taught that suffering has to be recognised and identified as suffering and that there are 3 levels of suffering. The first one being the "suffering of suffering", which refers to the self evident suffering of pain, physical or emotional
              The Four Noble Truths are something i think you should investigate and study, as i try to do, and you may be able to answer some of your own questions and understand other peoples responses.
              I really do not think that posting random quotes, that you feel to be relevent helps anybodies understanding.
              I hope this helps
              Steve

              >





            • Donna Barrera.Swirlsdancing@ya
              Ah, haa,haa!  Never mind me! Lol!   xxx, right back at cha!   What a good soul you are! -Swirls
              Message 6 of 22 , Jul 13, 2009
                Ah, haa,haa!  Never mind me! Lol!
                 
                xxx, right back at 'cha!
                 
                What a good soul you are!

                -Swirls
                ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
                Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


                --- On Mon, 7/13/09, Delec Delec <delec63@...> wrote:

                From: Delec Delec <delec63@...>
                Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 7:57 AM

                Er......yeah.
                LOL
                xxx

                --- On Mon, 13/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>
                Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                Date: Monday, 13 July, 2009, 2:50 PM

                To clarify, everything that we experience, pain pleasure or whatever, is by its very nature suffering.
                 
                Ah; so, English and Tibetan (*Sanskrit,etc) do have something in common!  Sometimes terms need clarification, and you have done so, admirably. 
                 
                 Suffering, in this sense, is used in the same sense as more traditional English, "He suffered her to come nigh onto...",  is is an admirable and pithy form of The  English language which was once spoken in  that land, one with which  I am only somewhat familiar, what with it  not having much appeared in  text since around the time of King James, give or take a generation or so.  English was spoken a good deal more to the point in those days.  It is a pity that it has gone out of fashion!   Hm mm, perhaps that is why it has gone out of fashion, since it does not, lol,  suit-up well with the communications needs of commerce, advertising or detente. It does not, lol,  fad-ilitate these pursuits (facilitation under the ever-more-rapidly- changing modern lingual paradigm[s] we employ these days).
                 
                to suffer= to bear; to bear-up; to bear-up under; to allow.  Yeah, when I think of the term suffering in that light, the ancient texts make much more sense. 
                 
                When I see the the text in the light of that form of English, these concepts leap off the page  in all their ancient wisdom. To suffer is used in the sense of "to bear", here, as in  all 
                the baggage we let ourselves carry about in our imperfection, no?

                ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
                Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


                --- On Sun, 7/12/09, Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                From: Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 2:04 PM

                Hiya Donna
                To clarify, everything that we experience, pain pleasure or whatever, is by its very nature suffering.
                This is explained in the 1st of The 4 Noble Truths, the truth of suffering
                which has 3 levels, the "suffering of suffering", the "suffering of change" and the "pervasive suffering of conditioning"
                Clear as mud eh ?
                This 1st level explains clearly Jades point/question, if she has one !
                I dont think there is any benefit to be gained by over complicating an already profound teaching, the 4 noble truths
                Your thoughts ?
                xxx
                --- On Sun, 12/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>
                Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                Date: Sunday, 12 July, 2009, 5:36 PM

                So, would we all agree that pain is objective but suffereing is subjective?
                 
                Perhaps we could say that suffering is what ever process that one goes through while dealing with whatever pain one is feeling? Does that sound right?

                ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
                Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


                --- On Sun, 7/12/09, delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                From: delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 AM

                --- In Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com, Jade <collies85@. ..> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hi Tara, Everyone,
                >
                > I got to thinking that after you feel pain you end up suffering from that pain. There are different kinds of suffering too. Of course there are different pains too. But, suffering to me is the result of pain.
                >
                > Greetings,
                >
                > Jade

                Jade
                Having taken into account that this group is intended for us newbies to get a grip on basic Buddhist concepts, i still find some of your posts a little...er, well you know ?
                Lord Buddhas first teaching, or the first turning of the wheel of Dharma was about The Four Noble Truth.

                1. the truth of suffering.
                2. the truth of its origin.
                3. the truth of its cessation.
                4. the truth of the path that leads to its cessation.

                These truths form the basic structure for Buddhist practice.
                Refering back to the 1st NT, Buddha taught that suffering has to be recognised and identified as suffering and that there are 3 levels of suffering. The first one being the "suffering of suffering", which refers to the self evident suffering of pain, physical or emotional
                The Four Noble Truths are something i think you should investigate and study, as i try to do, and you may be able to answer some of your own questions and understand other peoples responses.
                I really do not think that posting random quotes, that you feel to be relevent helps anybodies understanding.
                I hope this helps
                Steve

                >






              • Elizabeth Boswell
                Thank you for your response. As I have said I am very new to Buddhism and I am a very avid seeker. I don t know the answer to this delimma, but I know what I
                Message 7 of 22 , Jul 13, 2009
                  Thank you for your response. As I have said I am very new to Buddhism and I am a very avid seeker. I don't know the answer to this delimma, but I know what I have read and meditated upon, all according to H H the Dalai Lama. I make many mistakes and suffer learning this way of life. It is very difficult, is it not, to give up what one has thought about themselves and other things and learn an entirely new way to look at being.
                   
                  Peace,
                  Beth

                  --- On Mon, 7/13/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdancing@ya <fishycrackers99@...> wrote:

                  From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdancing@ya <fishycrackers99@...>
                  Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                  To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 4:38 PM

                  thank you, E.B., for your post.  you have a very grounded and centered perspective.

                  ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
                  Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


                  --- On Mon, 7/13/09, Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@yahoo. com> wrote:

                  From: Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@yahoo. com>
                  Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                  To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 6:21 AM

                  So far I have not posted about this, because I am so new here. But I need to take exception here. His Holiness the Dalai Lama stated that the point of Buddism is "to be happy and to make others happy", so I don't see how everything we experience can be suffering.
                   
                  We do suffer, yes, when our ego tries to tell us that something is inherently good or bad and we attach ourselves to it as such. This causes either lust or anger, causing suffering. Please see "How to see yourself as you really are" by H. H. the fourtenth Dalai Lama.
                   
                  Thank you,
                  Beth

                  --- On Sun, 7/12/09, Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                  From: Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                  Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                  To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 PM

                  Hiya Donna
                  To clarify, everything that we experience, pain pleasure or whatever, is by its very nature suffering.
                  This is explained in the 1st of The 4 Noble Truths, the truth of suffering
                  which has 3 levels, the "suffering of suffering", the "suffering of change" and the "pervasive suffering of conditioning"
                  Clear as mud eh ?
                  This 1st level explains clearly Jades point/question, if she has one !
                  I dont think there is any benefit to be gained by over complicating an already profound teaching, the 4 noble truths
                  Your thoughts ?
                  xxx
                  --- On Sun, 12/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                  From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>
                  Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                  To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Sunday, 12 July, 2009, 5:36 PM

                  So, would we all agree that pain is objective but suffereing is subjective?
                   
                  Perhaps we could say that suffering is what ever process that one goes through while dealing with whatever pain one is feeling? Does that sound right?

                  ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
                  Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


                  --- On Sun, 7/12/09, delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                  From: delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                  Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                  To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 AM

                  --- In Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com, Jade <collies85@. ..> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Tara, Everyone,
                  >
                  > I got to thinking that after you feel pain you end up suffering from that pain. There are different kinds of suffering too. Of course there are different pains too. But, suffering to me is the result of pain.
                  >
                  > Greetings,
                  >
                  > Jade

                  Jade
                  Having taken into account that this group is intended for us newbies to get a grip on basic Buddhist concepts, i still find some of your posts a little...er, well you know ?
                  Lord Buddhas first teaching, or the first turning of the wheel of Dharma was about The Four Noble Truth.

                  1. the truth of suffering.
                  2. the truth of its origin.
                  3. the truth of its cessation.
                  4. the truth of the path that leads to its cessation.

                  These truths form the basic structure for Buddhist practice.
                  Refering back to the 1st NT, Buddha taught that suffering has to be recognised and identified as suffering and that there are 3 levels of suffering. The first one being the "suffering of suffering", which refers to the self evident suffering of pain, physical or emotional
                  The Four Noble Truths are something i think you should investigate and study, as i try to do, and you may be able to answer some of your own questions and understand other peoples responses.
                  I really do not think that posting random quotes, that you feel to be relevent helps anybodies understanding.
                  I hope this helps
                  Steve

                  >






                • Delec Delec
                  Hello Beth Im not really too sure what your question was , but if you would like to clarify then i will offer a response, it may not be worth much as i am
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jul 14, 2009
                    Hello Beth
                    Im not really too sure what your question was , but if you would like to clarify then i will offer a response, it may not be worth much as i am also new to Dharma.  I think it is fantastic to exchange ideas, rather than just swop quotes
                    What i found confusing when i first started exploring Buddhas teachings was the vast amount of inforrmation out there. Mahayana, Hinayana, sutra, tantra, Dzogchen, zen........Where to begin ????
                    With The 4 Noble Truths as explained by HHDL is a good place to start, in opinion anyway. 
                    Best Wishes, Tashi Delec & OM MANE PAME HUM
                    Ste
                    PS Sorry about my spelling and grammer, im English so i havnt got proper command of the American language yet. LOL
                    Ta Ta
                    xxx
                      
                    --- On Mon, 13/7/09, Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@...> wrote:

                    From: Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@...>
                    Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                    To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Monday, 13 July, 2009, 8:32 PM

                    Hi Steve,
                     
                    No, I think you have it on the nose. I guess that's what I was trying to say, it just didn't come out like that.
                     
                    The idea that I have is that we can avoid suffering (ie with the candy bars, which i love but I am diabetic) by seeing the material object and ourselves are we and they really are. We may think that the chocolate is a good thing, but upon closer examination, unless we attach our ego to that material thing and make it a desire, we can avoid some discomfort at least.
                     
                    What do you think? I am very, very new to Buddhism, have so much to learn and taking it a little step at a time. I would love to hear your response to this.
                     
                    Thanks for responding to my last post!
                     
                    Peace,
                    Beth

                    --- On Mon, 7/13/09, Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                    From: Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                    Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                    To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 2:28 PM

                    Hello Beth
                    Its a really tricky one to understand isnt it.  I remember when i first heard the teachings on suffering, i was like "hang on a minute, i see happiness everyday"
                    But what is happiness ? Just the suffering of change, the second level of the first nobel truth as explained by His Holiness.  What we feel brings us happiness will lead to suffering.  A piece of chocolate makes us feel good, but 10 pieces of chocolate makes us feel sick.  If we investigate anything that we believe brings happiness, then surely the more we experience it then the happier we would become,  not true
                    Nothing in samsara can be a true sourse of happiness
                    Of course the point of Buddhism is to make us happy, by showing the way to escape from samsara,  which is suffering.  Why else would we want to escape this cycle of rebirth ? AKA liberation from suffering
                    Thanks for joining in Beth,  do you think ive got it wrong?  it wouldnt be the first time !
                    Much Love
                    Steve

                    --- On Mon, 13/7/09, Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@yahoo. com> wrote:

                    From: Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@yahoo. com>
                    Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                    To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Monday, 13 July, 2009, 1:21 PM

                    So far I have not posted about this, because I am so new here. But I need to take exception here. His Holiness the Dalai Lama stated that the point of Buddism is "to be happy and to make others happy", so I don't see how everything we experience can be suffering.
                     
                    We do suffer, yes, when our ego tries to tell us that something is inherently good or bad and we attach ourselves to it as such. This causes either lust or anger, causing suffering. Please see "How to see yourself as you really are" by H. H. the fourtenth Dalai Lama.
                     
                    Thank you,
                    Beth

                    --- On Sun, 7/12/09, Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                    From: Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                    Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                    To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 PM

                    Hiya Donna
                    To clarify, everything that we experience, pain pleasure or whatever, is by its very nature suffering.
                    This is explained in the 1st of The 4 Noble Truths, the truth of suffering
                    which has 3 levels, the "suffering of suffering", the "suffering of change" and the "pervasive suffering of conditioning"
                    Clear as mud eh ?
                    This 1st level explains clearly Jades point/question, if she has one !
                    I dont think there is any benefit to be gained by over complicating an already profound teaching, the 4 noble truths
                    Your thoughts ?
                    xxx
                    --- On Sun, 12/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                    From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>
                    Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                    To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Sunday, 12 July, 2009, 5:36 PM

                    So, would we all agree that pain is objective but suffereing is subjective?
                     
                    Perhaps we could say that suffering is what ever process that one goes through while dealing with whatever pain one is feeling? Does that sound right?

                    ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
                    Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


                    --- On Sun, 7/12/09, delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                    From: delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                    Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                    To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 AM

                    --- In Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com, Jade <collies85@. ..> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Tara, Everyone,
                    >
                    > I got to thinking that after you feel pain you end up suffering from that pain. There are different kinds of suffering too. Of course there are different pains too. But, suffering to me is the result of pain.
                    >
                    > Greetings,
                    >
                    > Jade

                    Jade
                    Having taken into account that this group is intended for us newbies to get a grip on basic Buddhist concepts, i still find some of your posts a little...er, well you know ?
                    Lord Buddhas first teaching, or the first turning of the wheel of Dharma was about The Four Noble Truth.

                    1. the truth of suffering.
                    2. the truth of its origin.
                    3. the truth of its cessation.
                    4. the truth of the path that leads to its cessation.

                    These truths form the basic structure for Buddhist practice.
                    Refering back to the 1st NT, Buddha taught that suffering has to be recognised and identified as suffering and that there are 3 levels of suffering. The first one being the "suffering of suffering", which refers to the self evident suffering of pain, physical or emotional
                    The Four Noble Truths are something i think you should investigate and study, as i try to do, and you may be able to answer some of your own questions and understand other peoples responses.
                    I really do not think that posting random quotes, that you feel to be relevent helps anybodies understanding.
                    I hope this helps
                    Steve

                    >







                  • delec63@yahoo.co.uk
                    Hiya Donna What do you mean by grounded and centred perspective . Just another random statement maybe ? In my humble opinion it is all so easy to throw these
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jul 16, 2009
                      Hiya Donna
                      What do you mean by "grounded and centred perspective".
                      Just another random statement maybe ?
                      In my humble opinion it is all so easy to throw these flipent coments around
                      without any explaination
                      So where is your situation ? Where is your centre ?
                      Can explain ?
                      xxx
                      --- On Mon, 13/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdancing@ya <fishycrackers99@...> wrote:

                      From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdancing@ya <fishycrackers99@...>
                      Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                      To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Monday, 13 July, 2009, 9:38 PM

                      thank you, E.B., for your post.  you have a very grounded and centered perspective.

                      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
                      Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


                      --- On Mon, 7/13/09, Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@yahoo. com> wrote:

                      From: Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@yahoo. com>
                      Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                      To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                      Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 6:21 AM

                      So far I have not posted about this, because I am so new here. But I need to take exception here. His Holiness the Dalai Lama stated that the point of Buddism is "to be happy and to make others happy", so I don't see how everything we experience can be suffering.
                       
                      We do suffer, yes, when our ego tries to tell us that something is inherently good or bad and we attach ourselves to it as such. This causes either lust or anger, causing suffering. Please see "How to see yourself as you really are" by H. H. the fourtenth Dalai Lama.
                       
                      Thank you,
                      Beth

                      --- On Sun, 7/12/09, Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                      From: Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                      Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                      To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                      Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 PM

                      Hiya Donna
                      To clarify, everything that we experience, pain pleasure or whatever, is by its very nature suffering.
                      This is explained in the 1st of The 4 Noble Truths, the truth of suffering
                      which has 3 levels, the "suffering of suffering", the "suffering of change" and the "pervasive suffering of conditioning"
                      Clear as mud eh ?
                      This 1st level explains clearly Jades point/question, if she has one !
                      I dont think there is any benefit to be gained by over complicating an already profound teaching, the 4 noble truths
                      Your thoughts ?
                      xxx
                      --- On Sun, 12/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                      From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>
                      Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                      To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                      Date: Sunday, 12 July, 2009, 5:36 PM

                      So, would we all agree that pain is objective but suffereing is subjective?
                       
                      Perhaps we could say that suffering is what ever process that one goes through while dealing with whatever pain one is feeling? Does that sound right?

                      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
                      Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


                      --- On Sun, 7/12/09, delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                      From: delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                      Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                      To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                      Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 AM

                      --- In Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com, Jade <collies85@. ..> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Tara, Everyone,
                      >
                      > I got to thinking that after you feel pain you end up suffering from that pain. There are different kinds of suffering too. Of course there are different pains too. But, suffering to me is the result of pain.
                      >
                      > Greetings,
                      >
                      > Jade

                      Jade
                      Having taken into account that this group is intended for us newbies to get a grip on basic Buddhist concepts, i still find some of your posts a little...er, well you know ?
                      Lord Buddhas first teaching, or the first turning of the wheel of Dharma was about The Four Noble Truth.

                      1. the truth of suffering.
                      2. the truth of its origin.
                      3. the truth of its cessation.
                      4. the truth of the path that leads to its cessation.

                      These truths form the basic structure for Buddhist practice.
                      Refering back to the 1st NT, Buddha taught that suffering has to be recognised and identified as suffering and that there are 3 levels of suffering. The first one being the "suffering of suffering", which refers to the self evident suffering of pain, physical or emotional
                      The Four Noble Truths are something i think you should investigate and study, as i try to do, and you may be able to answer some of your own questions and understand other peoples responses.
                      I really do not think that posting random quotes, that you feel to be relevent helps anybodies understanding.
                      I hope this helps
                      Steve

                      >






                    • Donna Barrera.Swirlsdancing@ya
                      Hello, sorry, I did not realize, or rather forgot that Buddhist meditation terms would be different than the one s I am used ot hearing.. Grounded and
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jul 16, 2009
                        Hello, sorry, I did not realize, or rather forgot that Buddhist meditation terms would be different than the one's I am used ot hearing.."Grounded and centered" is the term used in the West almost universally among meditators.  Do you meditate?  For a quick description of the terms, grounded relates basically to the base, or root chakra. (located at base of spine)  Perhaps you have not heard that term but have heard the term Muladhara?  Well, it is the same thing. I have no idea what it is called in Tibetan terms.  The term I gave you is an Indian one. Perhaps it is used in Tibetan Buddhism, perhaps not.   I am new to Tibetan terms and scripture, in manner of speaking; but that is a story in itself with which I will not bore you.since it does not relate directly to any of your questions. 
                         
                        There is much that relates to the root chakra; but to make the explanation that I perceive  you seek short, and spare you much discourse, let me just say that the root chakra is the source of vital energy.  If one has certain issues in one's life, the is chakra will not allow the flow of a subtle energy called Kundalini.. If it is clear, that is to say one has no issues regarding certain feelings, like letting rage or various insecurities cloud the issue with which your are dealing; then, the expression "being grounded" is used inthe west almost universally, saying that one is treating upon the question point in a healthy, self secure, manner. That ought to do for a quickie,even though there is much to be learned about the chakras.
                         
                        Ok, "Centered"  The Solar plexus chakra, or Manipura, has to do with your personal power and how you use it.  Surely you have heard the expressions balanced, and unbalanced. so it might be easier for you to think of centeredness in that manner.  So if one's Manipura chakra is clear, and functioning properly, one will deal with life, in all of it's dynamics, in a "centered"  or balanced fashion.  Like I have said.  this doesn't even touch the tip of the iceberg when it comes to meditation and the chakras.  I am sure that someone here can supply you with  Buddhist references on the chakras,if you are interested. Then you can learn about how to ground and center, which are basic practices, from a Buddhist point of view, complete with the Tibetan names, should they differ. from the one's I have given.
                         
                        .
                         
                         As you read the posts here, you will find many words which are strange words to the Western ear.  I was merely attempting to relate to you as a westerner, with terms that I thought you would be more likely to understand since they are pretty commonplace among western practitioners, being new to Buddhism as you say; and ,I can only surmise, to Buddhist terms, therefore. 
                         
                        My mistake was in assuming that you had some western background that led you to Tibetan Buddhism.
                         
                        My most humble appologies, I certainly did not intend to elicit confusion, rancor, or put you on the defensive. I simply used terms I thought you might understand.  My mistake.  
                         
                        Perhaps the Group Owner would like to step in at this point and make some clarifications before this goes any further??  Since you seem to find my post so distasteful,  you will receive no more correspondence directly from me until this matter is settled in a satisfactory manner for both of us. Please do not offer reply ot my posts to others. I think that will be best, since you seem to take such great exception to  my post, even before knowing what it means.
                         
                        I find your post to be perilously  close to flaming.  I have done nothing to you to deserve this attitude from you nor the lack of respect in which iti s couched.  Buddhism is a pah of peace. Please do not disturb my peace or the peace of others, especially not before the fact is established, while on this group site.
                         
                        Thank you. 
                         
                         
                         
                        ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
                        Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


                        --- On Thu, 7/16/09, delec63@... <delec63@...> wrote:

                        From: delec63@... <delec63@...>
                        Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                        To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Thursday, July 16, 2009, 12:17 PM

                         
                        Hiya Donna
                        What do you mean by "grounded and centred perspective" .
                        Just another random statement maybe ?
                        In my humble opinion it is all so easy to throw these flipent coments around
                        without any explaination
                        So where is your situation ? Where is your centre ?
                        Can explain ?
                        xxx
                        --- On Mon, 13/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                        From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>
                        Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                        To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                        Date: Monday, 13 July, 2009, 9:38 PM

                        thank you, E.B., for your post.  you have a very grounded and centered perspective.

                        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
                        Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


                        --- On Mon, 7/13/09, Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@yahoo. com> wrote:

                        From: Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@yahoo. com>
                        Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                        To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                        Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 6:21 AM

                        So far I have not posted about this, because I am so new here. But I need to take exception here. His Holiness the Dalai Lama stated that the point of Buddism is "to be happy and to make others happy", so I don't see how everything we experience can be suffering.
                         
                        We do suffer, yes, when our ego tries to tell us that something is inherently good or bad and we attach ourselves to it as such. This causes either lust or anger, causing suffering. Please see "How to see yourself as you really are" by H. H. the fourtenth Dalai Lama.
                         
                        Thank you,
                        Beth

                        --- On Sun, 7/12/09, Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                        From: Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                        Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                        To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                        Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 PM

                        Hiya Donna
                        To clarify, everything that we experience, pain pleasure or whatever, is by its very nature suffering.
                        This is explained in the 1st of The 4 Noble Truths, the truth of suffering
                        which has 3 levels, the "suffering of suffering", the "suffering of change" and the "pervasive suffering of conditioning"
                        Clear as mud eh ?
                        This 1st level explains clearly Jades point/question, if she has one !
                        I dont think there is any benefit to be gained by over complicating an already profound teaching, the 4 noble truths
                        Your thoughts ?
                        xxx
                        --- On Sun, 12/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                        From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>
                        Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                        To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                        Date: Sunday, 12 July, 2009, 5:36 PM

                        So, would we all agree that pain is objective but suffereing is subjective?
                         
                        Perhaps we could say that suffering is what ever process that one goes through while dealing with whatever pain one is feeling? Does that sound right?

                        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
                        Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


                        --- On Sun, 7/12/09, delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                        From: delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                        Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                        To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                        Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 AM

                        --- In Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com, Jade <collies85@. ..> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi Tara, Everyone,
                        >
                        > I got to thinking that after you feel pain you end up suffering from that pain. There are different kinds of suffering too. Of course there are different pains too. But, suffering to me is the result of pain.
                        >
                        > Greetings,
                        >
                        > Jade

                        Jade
                        Having taken into account that this group is intended for us newbies to get a grip on basic Buddhist concepts, i still find some of your posts a little...er, well you know ?
                        Lord Buddhas first teaching, or the first turning of the wheel of Dharma was about The Four Noble Truth.

                        1. the truth of suffering.
                        2. the truth of its origin.
                        3. the truth of its cessation.
                        4. the truth of the path that leads to its cessation.

                        These truths form the basic structure for Buddhist practice.
                        Refering back to the 1st NT, Buddha taught that suffering has to be recognised and identified as suffering and that there are 3 levels of suffering. The first one being the "suffering of suffering", which refers to the self evident suffering of pain, physical or emotional
                        The Four Noble Truths are something i think you should investigate and study, as i try to do, and you may be able to answer some of your own questions and understand other peoples responses.
                        I really do not think that posting random quotes, that you feel to be relevent helps anybodies understanding.
                        I hope this helps
                        Steve

                        >







                      • Elizabeth Boswell
                        Please let it be known that I am not the one who replied to this email in this manner. I really appreciated the feedback, and enjoyed this email with the
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jul 17, 2009
                          Please let it be known that I am not the one who replied to this email in this manner. I really appreciated the feedback, and enjoyed this email with the additional information.
                           
                          Thank you and peace,
                          Beth

                          --- On Thu, 7/16/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdancing@ya <fishycrackers99@...> wrote:

                          From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdancing@ya <fishycrackers99@...>
                          Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                          To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Thursday, July 16, 2009, 11:30 PM

                           
                          Hello, sorry, I did not realize, or rather forgot that Buddhist meditation terms would be different than the one's I am used ot hearing.."Grounded and centered" is the term used in the West almost universally among meditators.  Do you meditate?  For a quick description of the terms, grounded relates basically to the base, or root chakra. (located at base of spine)  Perhaps you have not heard that term but have heard the term Muladhara?  Well, it is the same thing. I have no idea what it is called in Tibetan terms.  The term I gave you is an Indian one. Perhaps it is used in Tibetan Buddhism, perhaps not.   I am new to Tibetan terms and scripture, in manner of speaking; but that is a story in itself with which I will not bore you.since it does not relate directly to any of your questions. 
                           
                          There is much that relates to the root chakra; but to make the explanation that I perceive  you seek short, and spare you much discourse, let me just say that the root chakra is the source of vital energy.  If one has certain issues in one's life, the is chakra will not allow the flow of a subtle energy called Kundalini.. If it is clear, that is to say one has no issues regarding certain feelings, like letting rage or various insecurities cloud the issue with which your are dealing; then, the expression "being grounded" is used inthe west almost universally, saying that one is treating upon the question point in a healthy, self secure, manner. That ought to do for a quickie,even though there is much to be learned about the chakras.
                           
                          Ok, "Centered"  The Solar plexus chakra, or Manipura, has to do with your personal power and how you use it.  Surely you have heard the expressions balanced, and unbalanced. so it might be easier for you to think of centeredness in that manner.  So if one's Manipura chakra is clear, and functioning properly, one will deal with life, in all of it's dynamics, in a "centered"  or balanced fashion.  Like I have said.  this doesn't even touch the tip of the iceberg when it comes to meditation and the chakras.  I am sure that someone here can supply you with  Buddhist references on the chakras,if you are interested. Then you can learn about how to ground and center, which are basic practices, from a Buddhist point of view, complete with the Tibetan names, should they differ. from the one's I have given.
                           
                          .
                           
                           As you read the posts here, you will find many words which are strange words to the Western ear.  I was merely attempting to relate to you as a westerner, with terms that I thought you would be more likely to understand since they are pretty commonplace among western practitioners, being new to Buddhism as you say; and ,I can only surmise, to Buddhist terms, therefore. 
                           
                          My mistake was in assuming that you had some western background that led you to Tibetan Buddhism.
                           
                          My most humble appologies, I certainly did not intend to elicit confusion, rancor, or put you on the defensive. I simply used terms I thought you might understand.  My mistake.  
                           
                          Perhaps the Group Owner would like to step in at this point and make some clarifications before this goes any further??  Since you seem to find my post so distasteful,  you will receive no more correspondence directly from me until this matter is settled in a satisfactory manner for both of us. Please do not offer reply ot my posts to others. I think that will be best, since you seem to take such great exception to  my post, even before knowing what it means.
                           
                          I find your post to be perilously  close to flaming.  I have done nothing to you to deserve this attitude from you nor the lack of respect in which iti s couched.  Buddhism is a pah of peace. Please do not disturb my peace or the peace of others, especially not before the fact is established, while on this group site.
                           
                          Thank you. 
                           
                           
                           
                          ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
                          Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


                          --- On Thu, 7/16/09, delec63@yahoo. co.uk <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                          From: delec63@yahoo. co.uk <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                          Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                          To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                          Date: Thursday, July 16, 2009, 12:17 PM

                           
                          Hiya Donna
                          What do you mean by "grounded and centred perspective" .
                          Just another random statement maybe ?
                          In my humble opinion it is all so easy to throw these flipent coments around
                          without any explaination
                          So where is your situation ? Where is your centre ?
                          Can explain ?
                          xxx
                          --- On Mon, 13/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                          From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>
                          Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                          To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                          Date: Monday, 13 July, 2009, 9:38 PM

                          thank you, E.B., for your post.  you have a very grounded and centered perspective.

                          ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
                          Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


                          --- On Mon, 7/13/09, Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@yahoo. com> wrote:

                          From: Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@yahoo. com>
                          Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                          To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                          Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 6:21 AM

                          So far I have not posted about this, because I am so new here. But I need to take exception here. His Holiness the Dalai Lama stated that the point of Buddism is "to be happy and to make others happy", so I don't see how everything we experience can be suffering.
                           
                          We do suffer, yes, when our ego tries to tell us that something is inherently good or bad and we attach ourselves to it as such. This causes either lust or anger, causing suffering. Please see "How to see yourself as you really are" by H. H. the fourtenth Dalai Lama.
                           
                          Thank you,
                          Beth

                          --- On Sun, 7/12/09, Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                          From: Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                          Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                          To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                          Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 PM

                          Hiya Donna
                          To clarify, everything that we experience, pain pleasure or whatever, is by its very nature suffering.
                          This is explained in the 1st of The 4 Noble Truths, the truth of suffering
                          which has 3 levels, the "suffering of suffering", the "suffering of change" and the "pervasive suffering of conditioning"
                          Clear as mud eh ?
                          This 1st level explains clearly Jades point/question, if she has one !
                          I dont think there is any benefit to be gained by over complicating an already profound teaching, the 4 noble truths
                          Your thoughts ?
                          xxx
                          --- On Sun, 12/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                          From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>
                          Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                          To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                          Date: Sunday, 12 July, 2009, 5:36 PM

                          So, would we all agree that pain is objective but suffereing is subjective?
                           
                          Perhaps we could say that suffering is what ever process that one goes through while dealing with whatever pain one is feeling? Does that sound right?

                          ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
                          Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


                          --- On Sun, 7/12/09, delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                          From: delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                          Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                          To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                          Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 AM

                          --- In Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com, Jade <collies85@. ..> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi Tara, Everyone,
                          >
                          > I got to thinking that after you feel pain you end up suffering from that pain. There are different kinds of suffering too. Of course there are different pains too. But, suffering to me is the result of pain.
                          >
                          > Greetings,
                          >
                          > Jade

                          Jade
                          Having taken into account that this group is intended for us newbies to get a grip on basic Buddhist concepts, i still find some of your posts a little...er, well you know ?
                          Lord Buddhas first teaching, or the first turning of the wheel of Dharma was about The Four Noble Truth.

                          1. the truth of suffering.
                          2. the truth of its origin.
                          3. the truth of its cessation.
                          4. the truth of the path that leads to its cessation.

                          These truths form the basic structure for Buddhist practice.
                          Refering back to the 1st NT, Buddha taught that suffering has to be recognised and identified as suffering and that there are 3 levels of suffering. The first one being the "suffering of suffering", which refers to the self evident suffering of pain, physical or emotional
                          The Four Noble Truths are something i think you should investigate and study, as i try to do, and you may be able to answer some of your own questions and understand other peoples responses.
                          I really do not think that posting random quotes, that you feel to be relevent helps anybodies understanding.
                          I hope this helps
                          Steve

                          >








                        • Steven Levey
                          Hi, Not to belabor this issue of grounded and centered but I d like to add........maybe 2 cents. My feeling about your post about the chakras and kundalini,
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jul 17, 2009
                            Hi,
                                  Not to belabor this issue of "grounded and centered" but I'd like to add........maybe 2 cents.
                                  My feeling about your post about the chakras and kundalini, is that you may have stepped out of "Buddhism" per say and into Hindu/Vedic perspective. Which, while still being very valid as a philosophical wisdom (to say the least), may also be a bit over the top as a useful answer to the question about being "grounded and centered". here is the question again:
                             
                            "Hiya Donna
                            What do you mean by "grounded and centred perspective" .
                            Just another random statement maybe ?
                            In my humble opinion it is all so easy to throw these flipent coments around
                            without any explaination
                            So where is your situation ? Where is your centre ?
                            Can explain ?"
                             
                            To me the question is requesting what common sense would normally have realized and is therefore a question begging more intellectulism than is neccessary, because your response was in no way flipent and required no further explaination.
                                    My point is; grounded and centered means an individual who is used to being realistic (mindful) and at home in the use of the Middle Way perspective-neither too much nor too little and are simply words used to describe well thought out thinking on any subject and are not particularly Buddhist lingo per say.
                                   Sorry, this all may seem too judgemental, but I really hate to see really simple terms made into complexities. And perhaps the subject of suffering and pain was over done as well and this is why your immediate response, which was labelled "grounded and centered" was just that; it side-stepped an attempt to make what is a normal human issue into an over intellectual one. Pain being what is reponded too by each of us as suffering to varying degrees, depending upon out attachment to that which was lost like bliss, composure-peace of mind, people, things of all kinds, etc. All of this can be....a pain and an education as to our degree of attachment, which can be discovered through mindfullness, unfortunately mostly after the fact-through suffering.
                             
                            Steve

                            To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                            From: fishycrackers99@...
                            Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:30:31 -0700
                            Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering

                             
                            Hello, sorry, I did not realize, or rather forgot that Buddhist meditation terms would be different than the one's I am used ot hearing.."Grounded and centered" is the term used in the West almost universally among meditators.  Do you meditate?  For a quick description of the terms, grounded relates basically to the base, or root chakra. (located at base of spine)  Perhaps you have not heard that term but have heard the term Muladhara?  Well, it is the same thing. I have no idea what it is called in Tibetan terms.  The term I gave you is an Indian one. Perhaps it is used in Tibetan Buddhism, perhaps not.   I am new to Tibetan terms and scripture, in manner of speaking; but that is a story in itself with which I will not bore you.since it does not relate directly to any of your questions. 
                             
                            There is much that relates to the root chakra; but to make the explanation that I perceive  you seek short, and spare you much discourse, let me just say that the root chakra is the source of vital energy.  If one has certain issues in one's life, the is chakra will not allow the flow of a subtle energy called Kundalini.. If it is clear, that is to say one has no issues regarding certain feelings, like letting rage or various insecurities cloud the issue with which your are dealing; then, the expression "being grounded" is used inthe west almost universally, saying that one is treating upon the question point in a healthy, self secure, manner. That ought to do for a quickie,even though there is much to be learned about the chakras.
                             
                            Ok, "Centered"  The Solar plexus chakra, or Manipura, has to do with your personal power and how you use it.  Surely you have heard the expressions balanced, and unbalanced. so it might be easier for you to think of centeredness in that manner.  So if one's Manipura chakra is clear, and functioning properly, one will deal with life, in all of it's dynamics, in a "centered"  or balanced fashion.  Like I have said.  this doesn't even touch the tip of the iceberg when it comes to meditation and the chakras.  I am sure that someone here can supply you with  Buddhist references on the chakras,if you are interested. Then you can learn about how to ground and center, which are basic practices, from a Buddhist point of view, complete with the Tibetan names, should they differ. from the one's I have given.
                             
                            .
                             
                             As you read the posts here, you will find many words which are strange words to the Western ear.  I was merely attempting to relate to you as a westerner, with terms that I thought you would be more likely to understand since they are pretty commonplace among western practitioners, being new to Buddhism as you say; and ,I can only surmise, to Buddhist terms, therefore. 
                             
                            My mistake was in assuming that you had some western background that led you to Tibetan Buddhism.
                             
                            My most humble appologies, I certainly did not intend to elicit confusion, rancor, or put you on the defensive. I simply used terms I thought you might understand.  My mistake.  
                             
                            Perhaps the Group Owner would like to step in at this point and make some clarifications before this goes any further??  Since you seem to find my post so distasteful,  you will receive no more correspondence directly from me until this matter is settled in a satisfactory manner for both of us. Please do not offer reply ot my posts to others. I think that will be best, since you seem to take such great exception to  my post, even before knowing what it means.
                             
                            I find your post to be perilously  close to flaming.  I have done nothing to you to deserve this attitude from you nor the lack of respect in which iti s couched.  Buddhism is a pah of peace. Please do not disturb my peace or the peace of others, especially not before the fact is established, while on this group site.
                             
                            Thank you. 
                             
                             
                             
                            ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
                            Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


                            --- On Thu, 7/16/09, delec63@yahoo. co.uk <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                            From: delec63@yahoo. co.uk <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                            Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                            To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                            Date: Thursday, July 16, 2009, 12:17 PM

                             
                            Hiya Donna
                            What do you mean by "grounded and centred perspective" .
                            Just another random statement maybe ?
                            In my humble opinion it is all so easy to throw these flipent coments around
                            without any explaination
                            So where is your situation ? Where is your centre ?
                            Can explain ?
                            xxx
                            --- On Mon, 13/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                            From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>
                            Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                            To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                            Date: Monday, 13 July, 2009, 9:38 PM

                            thank you, E.B., for your post.  you have a very grounded and centered perspective.

                            ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
                            Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


                            --- On Mon, 7/13/09, Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@yahoo. com> wrote:

                            From: Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@yahoo. com>
                            Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                            To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                            Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 6:21 AM

                            So far I have not posted about this, because I am so new here. But I need to take exception here. His Holiness the Dalai Lama stated that the point of Buddism is "to be happy and to make others happy", so I don't see how everything we experience can be suffering.
                             
                            We do suffer, yes, when our ego tries to tell us that something is inherently good or bad and we attach ourselves to it as such. This causes either lust or anger, causing suffering. Please see "How to see yourself as you really are" by H. H. the fourtenth Dalai Lama.
                             
                            Thank you,
                            Beth

                            --- On Sun, 7/12/09, Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                            From: Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                            Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                            To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                            Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 PM

                            Hiya Donna
                            To clarify, everything that we experience, pain pleasure or whatever, is by its very nature suffering.
                            This is explained in the 1st of The 4 Noble Truths, the truth of suffering
                            which has 3 levels, the "suffering of suffering", the "suffering of change" and the "pervasive suffering of conditioning"
                            Clear as mud eh ?
                            This 1st level explains clearly Jades point/question, if she has one !
                            I dont think there is any benefit to be gained by over complicating an already profound teaching, the 4 noble truths
                            Your thoughts ?
                            xxx
                            --- On Sun, 12/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                            From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>
                            Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                            To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                            Date: Sunday, 12 July, 2009, 5:36 PM

                            So, would we all agree that pain is objective but suffereing is subjective?
                             
                            Perhaps we could say that suffering is what ever process that one goes through while dealing with whatever pain one is feeling? Does that sound right?

                            ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
                            Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


                            --- On Sun, 7/12/09, delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                            From: delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                            Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                            To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                            Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 AM

                            --- In Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com, Jade <collies85@. ..> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Hi Tara, Everyone,
                            >
                            > I got to thinking that after you feel pain you end up suffering from that pain. There are different kinds of suffering too. Of course there are different pains too. But, suffering to me is the result of pain.
                            >
                            > Greetings,
                            >
                            > Jade

                            Jade
                            Having taken into account that this group is intended for us newbies to get a grip on basic Buddhist concepts, i still find some of your posts a little...er, well you know ?
                            Lord Buddhas first teaching, or the first turning of the wheel of Dharma was about The Four Noble Truth.

                            1. the truth of suffering.
                            2. the truth of its origin.
                            3. the truth of its cessation.
                            4. the truth of the path that leads to its cessation.

                            These truths form the basic structure for Buddhist practice.
                            Refering back to the 1st NT, Buddha taught that suffering has to be recognised and identified as suffering and that there are 3 levels of suffering. The first one being the "suffering of suffering", which refers to the self evident suffering of pain, physical or emotional
                            The Four Noble Truths are something i think you should investigate and study, as i try to do, and you may be able to answer some of your own questions and understand other peoples responses.
                            I really do not think that posting random quotes, that you feel to be relevent helps anybodies understanding.
                            I hope this helps
                            Steve

                            >








                          • Donna Barrera.Swirlsdancing@ya
                            Well, Ihave heard various perspectives.  They are all, as is mine, just one man s opinion of moonlight .   Since I recieved a message that my un
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jul 17, 2009
                              Well, Ihave heard various perspectives.  They are all, as is mine, "just one man's opinion of moonlight".
                               
                              Since I recieved a message that my un subscription was not delivered through channels fro I know not what reason, since Imerely clicked nthe link, I am copy pasting the pertinent part into this correspondence.  Thank you all for a lovely time.

                              Received: from [76.125.51.152] by web57601.mail.re1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 16 Jul 2009 23:09:58 PDT
                              X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/5.4.17 YahooMailWebService/0.7.289.15
                              Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 23:09:58 -0700 (PDT)
                              From: "Donna Barrera.Swirlsdancing@ya" <fishycrackers99@...>
                              Reply-To: fishycrackers99@...
                              To: Buddhism_101-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=
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                              Please drop me from this group.=A0 I unsubscribe.
                              =A0
                              Thank you,=20
                              =A0
                              SwirlsDancing
                              ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
                              Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


                              --- On Fri, 7/17/09, Steven Levey <levey_steven@...> wrote:

                              From: Steven Levey <levey_steven@...>
                              Subject: RE: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                              To: "buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com" <buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com>
                              Date: Friday, July 17, 2009, 6:47 AM

                               
                              Hi,
                                    Not to belabor this issue of "grounded and centered" but I'd like to add........maybe 2 cents.
                                    My feeling about your post about the chakras and kundalini, is that you may have stepped out of "Buddhism" per say and into Hindu/Vedic perspective. Which, while still being very valid as a philosophical wisdom (to say the least), may also be a bit over the top as a useful answer to the question about being "grounded and centered". here is the question again:
                               
                              "Hiya Donna
                              What do you mean by "grounded and centred perspective" .
                              Just another random statement maybe ?
                              In my humble opinion it is all so easy to throw these flipent coments around
                              without any explaination
                              So where is your situation ? Where is your centre ?
                              Can explain ?"
                               
                              To me the question is requesting what common sense would normally have realized and is therefore a question begging more intellectulism than is neccessary, because your response was in no way flipent and required no further explaination.
                                      My point is; grounded and centered means an individual who is used to being realistic (mindful) and at home in the use of the Middle Way perspective- neither too much nor too little and are simply words used to describe well thought out thinking on any subject and are not particularly Buddhist lingo per say.
                                     Sorry, this all may seem too judgemental, but I really hate to see really simple terms made into complexities. And perhaps the subject of suffering and pain was over done as well and this is why your immediate response, which was labelled "grounded and centered" was just that; it side-stepped an attempt to make what is a normal human issue into an over intellectual one. Pain being what is reponded too by each of us as suffering to varying degrees, depending upon out attachment to that which was lost like bliss, composure-peace of mind, people, things of all kinds, etc. All of this can be....a pain and an education as to our degree of attachment, which can be discovered through mindfullness, unfortunately mostly after the fact-through suffering.
                               
                              Steve

                              To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                              From: fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com
                              Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:30:31 -0700
                              Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering

                               
                              Hello, sorry, I did not realize, or rather forgot that Buddhist meditation terms would be different than the one's I am used ot hearing.."Grounded and centered" is the term used in the West almost universally among meditators.  Do you meditate?  For a quick description of the terms, grounded relates basically to the base, or root chakra. (located at base of spine)  Perhaps you have not heard that term but have heard the term Muladhara?  Well, it is the same thing. I have no idea what it is called in Tibetan terms.  The term I gave you is an Indian one. Perhaps it is used in Tibetan Buddhism, perhaps not.   I am new to Tibetan terms and scripture, in manner of speaking; but that is a story in itself with which I will not bore you.since it does not relate directly to any of your questions. 
                               
                              There is much that relates to the root chakra; but to make the explanation that I perceive  you seek short, and spare you much discourse, let me just say that the root chakra is the source of vital energy.  If one has certain issues in one's life, the is chakra will not allow the flow of a subtle energy called Kundalini.. If it is clear, that is to say one has no issues regarding certain feelings, like letting rage or various insecurities cloud the issue with which your are dealing; then, the expression "being grounded" is used inthe west almost universally, saying that one is treating upon the question point in a healthy, self secure, manner. That ought to do for a quickie,even though there is much to be learned about the chakras.
                               
                              Ok, "Centered"  The Solar plexus chakra, or Manipura, has to do with your personal power and how you use it.  Surely you have heard the expressions balanced, and unbalanced. so it might be easier for you to think of centeredness in that manner.  So if one's Manipura chakra is clear, and functioning properly, one will deal with life, in all of it's dynamics, in a "centered"  or balanced fashion.  Like I have said.  this doesn't even touch the tip of the iceberg when it comes to meditation and the chakras.  I am sure that someone here can supply you with  Buddhist references on the chakras,if you are interested. Then you can learn about how to ground and center, which are basic practices, from a Buddhist point of view, complete with the Tibetan names, should they differ. from the one's I have given.
                               
                              .
                               
                               As you read the posts here, you will find many words which are strange words to the Western ear.  I was merely attempting to relate to you as a westerner, with terms that I thought you would be more likely to understand since they are pretty commonplace among western practitioners, being new to Buddhism as you say; and ,I can only surmise, to Buddhist terms, therefore. 
                               
                              My mistake was in assuming that you had some western background that led you to Tibetan Buddhism.
                               
                              My most humble appologies, I certainly did not intend to elicit confusion, rancor, or put you on the defensive. I simply used terms I thought you might understand.  My mistake.  
                               
                              Perhaps the Group Owner would like to step in at this point and make some clarifications before this goes any further??  Since you seem to find my post so distasteful,  you will receive no more correspondence directly from me until this matter is settled in a satisfactory manner for both of us. Please do not offer reply ot my posts to others. I think that will be best, since you seem to take such great exception to  my post, even before knowing what it means.
                               
                              I find your post to be perilously  close to flaming.  I have done nothing to you to deserve this attitude from you nor the lack of respect in which iti s couched.  Buddhism is a pah of peace. Please do not disturb my peace or the peace of others, especially not before the fact is established, while on this group site.
                               
                              Thank you. 
                               
                               
                               
                              ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
                              Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


                              --- On Thu, 7/16/09, delec63@yahoo. co.uk <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                              From: delec63@yahoo. co.uk <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                              Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                              To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                              Date: Thursday, July 16, 2009, 12:17 PM

                               
                              Hiya Donna
                              What do you mean by "grounded and centred perspective" .
                              Just another random statement maybe ?
                              In my humble opinion it is all so easy to throw these flipent coments around
                              without any explaination
                              So where is your situation ? Where is your centre ?
                              Can explain ?
                              xxx
                              --- On Mon, 13/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                              From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>
                              Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                              To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                              Date: Monday, 13 July, 2009, 9:38 PM

                              thank you, E.B., for your post.  you have a very grounded and centered perspective.

                              ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
                              Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


                              --- On Mon, 7/13/09, Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@yahoo. com> wrote:

                              From: Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@yahoo. com>
                              Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                              To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                              Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 6:21 AM

                              So far I have not posted about this, because I am so new here. But I need to take exception here. His Holiness the Dalai Lama stated that the point of Buddism is "to be happy and to make others happy", so I don't see how everything we experience can be suffering.
                               
                              We do suffer, yes, when our ego tries to tell us that something is inherently good or bad and we attach ourselves to it as such. This causes either lust or anger, causing suffering. Please see "How to see yourself as you really are" by H. H. the fourtenth Dalai Lama.
                               
                              Thank you,
                              Beth

                              --- On Sun, 7/12/09, Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                              From: Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                              Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                              To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                              Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 PM

                              Hiya Donna
                              To clarify, everything that we experience, pain pleasure or whatever, is by its very nature suffering.
                              This is explained in the 1st of The 4 Noble Truths, the truth of suffering
                              which has 3 levels, the "suffering of suffering", the "suffering of change" and the "pervasive suffering of conditioning"
                              Clear as mud eh ?
                              This 1st level explains clearly Jades point/question, if she has one !
                              I dont think there is any benefit to be gained by over complicating an already profound teaching, the 4 noble truths
                              Your thoughts ?
                              xxx
                              --- On Sun, 12/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                              From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>
                              Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                              To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                              Date: Sunday, 12 July, 2009, 5:36 PM

                              So, would we all agree that pain is objective but suffereing is subjective?
                               
                              Perhaps we could say that suffering is what ever process that one goes through while dealing with whatever pain one is feeling? Does that sound right?

                              ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
                              Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa


                              --- On Sun, 7/12/09, delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

                              From: delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                              Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                              To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                              Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 AM

                              --- In Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com, Jade <collies85@. ..> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Hi Tara, Everyone,
                              >
                              > I got to thinking that after you feel pain you end up suffering from that pain. There are different kinds of suffering too. Of course there are different pains too. But, suffering to me is the result of pain.
                              >
                              > Greetings,
                              >
                              > Jade

                              Jade
                              Having taken into account that this group is intended for us newbies to get a grip on basic Buddhist concepts, i still find some of your posts a little...er, well you know ?
                              Lord Buddhas first teaching, or the first turning of the wheel of Dharma was about The Four Noble Truth.

                              1. the truth of suffering.
                              2. the truth of its origin.
                              3. the truth of its cessation.
                              4. the truth of the path that leads to its cessation.

                              These truths form the basic structure for Buddhist practice.
                              Refering back to the 1st NT, Buddha taught that suffering has to be recognised and identified as suffering and that there are 3 levels of suffering. The first one being the "suffering of suffering", which refers to the self evident suffering of pain, physical or emotional
                              The Four Noble Truths are something i think you should investigate and study, as i try to do, and you may be able to answer some of your own questions and understand other peoples responses.
                              I really do not think that posting random quotes, that you feel to be relevent helps anybodies understanding.
                              I hope this helps
                              Steve

                              >









                            • ken
                              Though I haven t (yet) taken a major interest in chakras, I have read about them in Buddhist literature... in a text written by a monk. Moreover, I ve found so
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jul 18, 2009
                                Though I haven't (yet) taken a major interest in chakras, I have read
                                about them in Buddhist literature... in a text written by a monk.
                                Moreover, I've found so many varied topics about which there are
                                Buddhist writings-- e.g., medicine, education, economics, even military
                                strategy-- that I'm beginning to see Buddhism as, not merely a religion
                                or ethical system, but rather a culture in its own right.


                                On 07/17/2009 09:47 AM Steven Levey wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > Hi,
                                > Not to belabor this issue of "grounded and centered" but I'd like
                                > to add........maybe 2 cents.
                                > My feeling about your post about the chakras and kundalini, is
                                > that you may have stepped out of "Buddhism" per say and into Hindu/Vedic
                                > perspective. Which, while still being very valid as a philosophical
                                > wisdom (to say the least), may also be a bit over the top as a useful
                                > answer to the question about being "grounded and centered". here is the
                                > question again:
                                >
                                > "Hiya Donna
                                >
                                > What do you mean by "grounded and centred perspective" .
                                > Just another random statement maybe ?
                                > In my humble opinion it is all so easy to throw these flipent coments around
                                > without any explaination
                                > So where is your situation ? Where is your centre ?
                                > Can explain ?"
                                >
                                > To me the question is requesting what common sense would normally have
                                > realized and is therefore a question begging more intellectulism than is
                                > neccessary, because your response was in no way flipent and required no
                                > further explaination.
                                > My point is; grounded and centered means an individual who is
                                > used to being realistic (mindful) and at home in the use of the Middle
                                > Way perspective-neither too much nor too little and are simply words
                                > used to describe well thought out thinking on any subject and are not
                                > particularly Buddhist lingo per say.
                                > Sorry, this all may seem too judgemental, but I really hate to
                                > see really simple terms made into complexities. And perhaps the subject
                                > of suffering and pain was over done as well and this is why your
                                > immediate response, which was labelled "grounded and centered" was just
                                > that; it side-stepped an attempt to make what is a normal human issue
                                > into an over intellectual one. Pain being what is reponded too by each
                                > of us as suffering to varying degrees, depending upon out attachment to
                                > that which was lost like bliss, composure-peace of mind, people, things
                                > of all kinds, etc. All of this can be....a pain and an education as to
                                > our degree of attachment, which can be discovered through mindfullness,
                                > unfortunately mostly after the fact-through suffering.
                                >
                                > Steve
                                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                > To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                                > From: fishycrackers99@...
                                > Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:30:31 -0700
                                > Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                                >
                                >
                                > Hello, sorry, I did not realize, or rather forgot that Buddhist
                                > meditation terms would be different than the one's I am used ot
                                > hearing.."Grounded and centered" is the term used in the West almost
                                > universally among meditators. Do you meditate? For a quick description
                                > of the terms, grounded relates basically to the base, or root chakra.
                                > (located at base of spine) Perhaps you have not heard that term but
                                > have heard the term Muladhara? Well, it is the same thing. I have no
                                > idea what it is called in Tibetan terms. The term I gave you is an
                                > Indian one. Perhaps it is used in Tibetan Buddhism, perhaps not. I am
                                > new to Tibetan terms and scripture, in manner of speaking; but that is a
                                > story in itself with which I will not bore you.since it does not relate
                                > directly to any of your questions.
                                >
                                > There is much that relates to the root chakra; but to make the
                                > explanation that I perceive you seek short, and spare
                                > you much discourse, let me just say that the root chakra is the source
                                > of vital energy. If one has certain issues in one's life, the is chakra
                                > will not allow the flow of a subtle energy called Kundalini.. If it is
                                > clear, that is to say one has no issues regarding certain feelings, like
                                > letting rage or various insecurities cloud the issue with which your are
                                > dealing; then, the expression "being grounded" is used inthe west almost
                                > universally, saying that one is treating upon the question point in a
                                > healthy, self secure, manner. That ought to do for a quickie,even though
                                > there is much to be learned about the chakras.
                                >
                                > Ok, "Centered" The Solar plexus chakra, or Manipura, has to do with
                                > your personal power and how you use it. Surely you have heard the
                                > expressions balanced, and unbalanced. so it might be easier for you to
                                > think of centeredness in that manner. So if one's Manipura chakra is
                                > clear, and functioning properly, one will deal with life, in all of it's
                                > dynamics, in a "centered" or balanced fashion. Like I have said. this
                                > doesn't even touch the tip of the iceberg when it comes to meditation
                                > and the chakras. I am sure that someone here can supply you with
                                > Buddhist references on the chakras,if you are interested. Then you can
                                > learn about how to ground and center, which are basic practices, from
                                > a Buddhist point of view, complete with the Tibetan names, should they
                                > differ. from the one's I have given.
                                >
                                > .
                                >
                                > As you read the posts here, you will find many words which
                                > are strange words to the Western ear. I was merely attempting to relate
                                > to you as a westerner, with terms that I thought you would be more
                                > likely to understand since they are pretty commonplace among western
                                > practitioners, being new to Buddhism as you say; and ,I can only
                                > surmise, to Buddhist terms, therefore.
                                >
                                > My mistake was in assuming that you had some western background that led
                                > you to Tibetan Buddhism.
                                >
                                > My most humble appologies, I certainly did not intend to elicit
                                > confusion, rancor, or put you on the defensive. I simply used terms I
                                > thought you might understand. My mistake.
                                >
                                > Perhaps the G_roup Owner_ would like to step in at this point and make
                                > some clarifications before this goes any further?? Since you seem to
                                > find my post so distasteful, you will receive no more correspondence
                                > directly from me until this matter is settled in a satisfactory
                                > manner for both of us. Please do not offer reply ot my posts to
                                > others. I think that will be best, since you seem to take such great
                                > exception to my post, even before knowing what it means.
                                >
                                > I find your post to be perilously close to flaming. I have done
                                > nothing to you to deserve this attitude from you nor the lack of respect
                                > in which iti s couched. Buddhism is a pah of peace. Please do not
                                > disturb my peace or the peace of others, especially not before the fact
                                > is established, while on this group site.
                                >
                                > Thank you.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
                                > *Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa*
                                >
                                >
                                > --- On *Thu, 7/16/09, delec63@... /<delec63@...>/* wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > From: delec63@... <delec63@...>
                                > Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                                > To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                                > Date: Thursday, July 16, 2009, 12:17 PM
                                >
                                >
                                > Hiya Donna
                                > What do you mean by "grounded and centred perspective" .
                                > Just another random statement maybe ?
                                > In my humble opinion it is all so easy to throw these flipent
                                > coments around
                                > without any explaination
                                > So where is your situation ? Where is your centre ?
                                > Can explain ?
                                > xxx
                                > --- On *Mon, 13/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya
                                > /<fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>/* wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>
                                > Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                                > To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                                > Date: Monday, 13 July, 2009, 9:38 PM
                                >
                                > thank you, E.B., for your post. you have a very grounded
                                > and centered perspective.
                                >
                                > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                                > _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
                                > *Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa*
                                >
                                >
                                > --- On *Mon, 7/13/09, Elizabeth Boswell /<xstchfan@yahoo. com>/*
                                > wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > From: Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@yahoo. com>
                                > Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                                > To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                                > Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 6:21 AM
                                >
                                > So far I have not posted about this, because I am so new
                                > here. But I need to take exception here. His Holiness the
                                > Dalai Lama stated that the point of Buddism is "to be happy
                                > and to make others happy", so I don't see how everything we
                                > experience can be suffering.
                                >
                                > We do suffer, yes, when our ego tries to tell us that
                                > something is inherently good or bad and we attach ourselves
                                > to it as such. This causes either lust or anger, causing
                                > suffering. Please see "How to see yourself as you really
                                > are" by H. H. the fourtenth Dalai Lama.
                                >
                                > Thank you,
                                > Beth
                                >
                                > --- On *Sun, 7/12/09, Delec Delec /<delec63@yahoo. co.uk>/*
                                > wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > From: Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                                > Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                                > To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                                > Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 PM
                                >
                                > Hiya Donna
                                > To clarify, everything that we experience, pain pleasure
                                > or whatever, is by its very nature suffering.
                                > This is explained in the 1st of The 4 Noble Truths, the
                                > truth of suffering
                                > which has 3 levels, the "suffering of suffering", the
                                > "suffering of change" and the "pervasive suffering of
                                > conditioning"
                                > Clear as mud eh ?
                                > This 1st level explains clearly Jades point/question, if
                                > she has one !
                                > I dont think there is any benefit to be gained by over
                                > complicating an already profound teaching, the 4 noble
                                > truths
                                > Your thoughts ?
                                > xxx
                                > --- On *Sun, 12/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya
                                > /<fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>/* wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya
                                > <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>
                                > Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                                > To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                                > Date: Sunday, 12 July, 2009, 5:36 PM
                                >
                                > So, would we all agree that pain is objective but
                                > suffereing is subjective?
                                >
                                > Perhaps we could say that suffering is what ever
                                > process that one goes through while dealing with
                                > whatever pain one is feeling? Does that sound right?
                                >
                                > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                                > _________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                                > _________ ________
                                > *Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa*
                                >
                                >
                                > --- On *Sun, 7/12/09, delec63 /<delec63@yahoo.
                                > co.uk>/* wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > From: delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                                > Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                                > To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                                > Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 AM
                                >
                                > --- In Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                                > <http://us.mc576.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com>,
                                > Jade <collies85@. ..> wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Hi Tara, Everyone,
                                > >
                                > > I got to thinking that after you feel pain you
                                > end up suffering from that pain. There are
                                > different kinds of suffering too. Of course
                                > there are different pains too. But, suffering to
                                > me is the result of pain.
                                > >
                                > > Greetings,
                                > >
                                > > Jade
                                >
                                > Jade
                                > Having taken into account that this group is
                                > intended for us newbies to get a grip on basic
                                > Buddhist concepts, i still find some of your
                                > posts a little...er, well you know ?
                                > Lord Buddhas first teaching, or the first
                                > turning of the wheel of Dharma was about The
                                > Four Noble Truth.
                                >
                                > 1. the truth of suffering.
                                > 2. the truth of its origin.
                                > 3. the truth of its cessation.
                                > 4. the truth of the path that leads to its
                                > cessation.
                                >
                                > These truths form the basic structure for
                                > Buddhist practice.
                                > Refering back to the 1st NT, Buddha taught that
                                > suffering has to be recognised and identified as
                                > suffering and that there are 3 levels of
                                > suffering. The first one being the "suffering of
                                > suffering", which refers to the self evident
                                > suffering of pain, physical or emotional
                                > The Four Noble Truths are something i think you
                                > should investigate and study, as i try to do,
                                > and you may be able to answer some of your own
                                > questions and understand other peoples responses.
                                > I really do not think that posting random
                                > quotes, that you feel to be relevent helps
                                > anybodies understanding.
                                > I hope this helps
                                > Steve
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • ken
                                First, let me apologize for permitting several rather abrasive posts by one of our members. I m of two minds about this sort of thing: On the one hand, I
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jul 18, 2009
                                  First, let me apologize for permitting several rather abrasive posts by
                                  one of our members. I'm of two minds about this sort of thing: On the
                                  one hand, I consider this email discussion list much like an online
                                  sangha and so, like a sangha of the non-virtual kind, we should all
                                  treat one another with respect and cordiality. On the other hand, we're
                                  all stuck here in samsara and so have to at least put up with various
                                  kinds of suffering, including annoying emails, and find ways to deal
                                  with it. So the posts from that one misguided individual might provide
                                  us the opportunity to enhance our practice and gain abilities in dealing
                                  with suffering (yes, not exactly extreme suffering, but a significant
                                  annoyance), dispelling the possibility of anger, and maintaining
                                  equipoise under adverse conditions.

                                  So, which policy should we have for this list...? One which makes this
                                  list more a sangha where anything akin to flaming is not tolerated? Or
                                  should we acknowledge that, although this is a buddhist discussion list,
                                  this is still samsara where annoyances of ever part of the program?

                                  Your recommendations and opinions very much welcome.


                                  --
                                  War is a failure of the imagination.
                                  --William Blake



                                  On 07/17/2009 12:30 AM Donna Barrera.Swirlsdancing@ya wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hello, sorry, I did not realize, or rather forgot that Buddhist
                                  > meditation terms would be different than the one's I am used ot
                                  > hearing.."Grounded and centered" is the term used in the West almost
                                  > universally among meditators. Do you meditate? For a quick description
                                  > of the terms, grounded relates basically to the base, or root chakra.
                                  > (located at base of spine) Perhaps you have not heard that term but
                                  > have heard the term Muladhara? Well, it is the same thing. I have no
                                  > idea what it is called in Tibetan terms. The term I gave you is an
                                  > Indian one. Perhaps it is used in Tibetan Buddhism, perhaps not. I am
                                  > new to Tibetan terms and scripture, in manner of speaking; but that is a
                                  > story in itself with which I will not bore you.since it does not relate
                                  > directly to any of your questions.
                                  >
                                  > There is much that relates to the root chakra; but to make the
                                  > explanation that I perceive you seek short, and spare
                                  > you much discourse, let me just say that the root chakra is the source
                                  > of vital energy. If one has certain issues in one's life, the is chakra
                                  > will not allow the flow of a subtle energy called Kundalini.. If it is
                                  > clear, that is to say one has no issues regarding certain feelings, like
                                  > letting rage or various insecurities cloud the issue with which your are
                                  > dealing; then, the expression "being grounded" is used inthe west almost
                                  > universally, saying that one is treating upon the question point in a
                                  > healthy, self secure, manner. That ought to do for a quickie,even though
                                  > there is much to be learned about the chakras.
                                  >
                                  > Ok, "Centered" The Solar plexus chakra, or Manipura, has to do with
                                  > your personal power and how you use it. Surely you have heard the
                                  > expressions balanced, and unbalanced. so it might be easier for you to
                                  > think of centeredness in that manner. So if one's Manipura chakra is
                                  > clear, and functioning properly, one will deal with life, in all of it's
                                  > dynamics, in a "centered" or balanced fashion. Like I have said. this
                                  > doesn't even touch the tip of the iceberg when it comes to meditation
                                  > and the chakras. I am sure that someone here can supply you with
                                  > Buddhist references on the chakras,if you are interested. Then you can
                                  > learn about how to ground and center, which are basic practices, from
                                  > a Buddhist point of view, complete with the Tibetan names, should they
                                  > differ. from the one's I have given.
                                  >
                                  > .
                                  >
                                  > As you read the posts here, you will find many words which
                                  > are strange words to the Western ear. I was merely attempting to relate
                                  > to you as a westerner, with terms that I thought you would be more
                                  > likely to understand since they are pretty commonplace among western
                                  > practitioners, being new to Buddhism as you say; and ,I can only
                                  > surmise, to Buddhist terms, therefore.
                                  >
                                  > My mistake was in assuming that you had some western background that led
                                  > you to Tibetan Buddhism.
                                  >
                                  > My most humble appologies, I certainly did not intend to elicit
                                  > confusion, rancor, or put you on the defensive. I simply used terms I
                                  > thought you might understand. My mistake.
                                  >
                                  > Perhaps the G_roup Owner_ would like to step in at this point and make
                                  > some clarifications before this goes any further?? Since you seem to
                                  > find my post so distasteful, you will receive no more correspondence
                                  > directly from me until this matter is settled in a satisfactory
                                  > manner for both of us. Please do not offer reply ot my posts to
                                  > others. I think that will be best, since you seem to take such great
                                  > exception to my post, even before knowing what it means.
                                  >
                                  > I find your post to be perilously close to flaming. I have done
                                  > nothing to you to deserve this attitude from you nor the lack of respect
                                  > in which iti s couched. Buddhism is a pah of peace. Please do not
                                  > disturb my peace or the peace of others, especially not before the fact
                                  > is established, while on this group site.
                                  >
                                  > Thank you.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
                                  > *Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa*
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- On *Thu, 7/16/09, delec63@... /<delec63@...>/* wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > From: delec63@... <delec63@...>
                                  > Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                                  > To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Date: Thursday, July 16, 2009, 12:17 PM
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hiya Donna
                                  > What do you mean by "grounded and centred perspective" .
                                  > Just another random statement maybe ?
                                  > In my humble opinion it is all so easy to throw these flipent
                                  > coments around
                                  > without any explaination
                                  > So where is your situation ? Where is your centre ?
                                  > Can explain ?
                                  > xxx
                                  > --- On *Mon, 13/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya
                                  > /<fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>/* wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>
                                  > Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                                  > To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > Date: Monday, 13 July, 2009, 9:38 PM
                                  >
                                  > thank you, E.B., for your post. you have a very grounded
                                  > and centered perspective.
                                  >
                                  > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                                  > _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
                                  > *Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa*
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- On *Mon, 7/13/09, Elizabeth Boswell /<xstchfan@yahoo. com>/*
                                  > wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > From: Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@yahoo. com>
                                  > Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                                  > To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 6:21 AM
                                  >
                                  > So far I have not posted about this, because I am so new
                                  > here. But I need to take exception here. His Holiness the
                                  > Dalai Lama stated that the point of Buddism is "to be happy
                                  > and to make others happy", so I don't see how everything we
                                  > experience can be suffering.
                                  >
                                  > We do suffer, yes, when our ego tries to tell us that
                                  > something is inherently good or bad and we attach ourselves
                                  > to it as such. This causes either lust or anger, causing
                                  > suffering. Please see "How to see yourself as you really
                                  > are" by H. H. the fourtenth Dalai Lama.
                                  >
                                  > Thank you,
                                  > Beth
                                  >
                                  > --- On *Sun, 7/12/09, Delec Delec /<delec63@yahoo. co.uk>/*
                                  > wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > From: Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                                  > Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                                  > To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 PM
                                  >
                                  > Hiya Donna
                                  > To clarify, everything that we experience, pain pleasure
                                  > or whatever, is by its very nature suffering.
                                  > This is explained in the 1st of The 4 Noble Truths, the
                                  > truth of suffering
                                  > which has 3 levels, the "suffering of suffering", the
                                  > "suffering of change" and the "pervasive suffering of
                                  > conditioning"
                                  > Clear as mud eh ?
                                  > This 1st level explains clearly Jades point/question, if
                                  > she has one !
                                  > I dont think there is any benefit to be gained by over
                                  > complicating an already profound teaching, the 4 noble
                                  > truths
                                  > Your thoughts ?
                                  > xxx
                                  > --- On *Sun, 12/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya
                                  > /<fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>/* wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya
                                  > <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>
                                  > Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                                  > To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > Date: Sunday, 12 July, 2009, 5:36 PM
                                  >
                                  > So, would we all agree that pain is objective but
                                  > suffereing is subjective?
                                  >
                                  > Perhaps we could say that suffering is what ever
                                  > process that one goes through while dealing with
                                  > whatever pain one is feeling? Does that sound right?
                                  >
                                  > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                                  > _________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                                  > _________ ________
                                  > *Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa*
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- On *Sun, 7/12/09, delec63 /<delec63@yahoo.
                                  > co.uk>/* wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > From: delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                                  > Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                                  > To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 AM
                                  >
                                  > --- In Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > <http://us.mc576.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Buddhism_101%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                  > Jade <collies85@. ..> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Hi Tara, Everyone,
                                  > >
                                  > > I got to thinking that after you feel pain you
                                  > end up suffering from that pain. There are
                                  > different kinds of suffering too. Of course
                                  > there are different pains too. But, suffering to
                                  > me is the result of pain.
                                  > >
                                  > > Greetings,
                                  > >
                                  > > Jade
                                  >
                                  > Jade
                                  > Having taken into account that this group is
                                  > intended for us newbies to get a grip on basic
                                  > Buddhist concepts, i still find some of your
                                  > posts a little...er, well you know ?
                                  > Lord Buddhas first teaching, or the first
                                  > turning of the wheel of Dharma was about The
                                  > Four Noble Truth.
                                  >
                                  > 1. the truth of suffering.
                                  > 2. the truth of its origin.
                                  > 3. the truth of its cessation.
                                  > 4. the truth of the path that leads to its
                                  > cessation.
                                  >
                                  > These truths form the basic structure for
                                  > Buddhist practice.
                                  > Refering back to the 1st NT, Buddha taught that
                                  > suffering has to be recognised and identified as
                                  > suffering and that there are 3 levels of
                                  > suffering. The first one being the "suffering of
                                  > suffering", which refers to the self evident
                                  > suffering of pain, physical or emotional
                                  > The Four Noble Truths are something i think you
                                  > should investigate and study, as i try to do,
                                  > and you may be able to answer some of your own
                                  > questions and understand other peoples responses.
                                  > I really do not think that posting random
                                  > quotes, that you feel to be relevent helps
                                  > anybodies understanding.
                                  > I hope this helps
                                  > Steve
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • losang_tenzin
                                  Greetings and Blessings. I am new here and new to the study of Buddhism. I would like to comment if I could on this post. The whole point in my limited
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jul 18, 2009
                                    Greetings and Blessings. I am new here and new to the study of Buddhism. I would like to comment if I could on this post. The whole point in my limited understanding is to end suffering. Yes. It is agreed and Acknowledged that we are all in samsara, so to answer your question. Is it ever ok to perpetuate suffering. If posts cause any to continue or increase suffering is it ok? My point being. Since we are all new. Do we take the mind let us allow continued behavior because suffering is just a part of everyday, Or are all of us here and learning about Buddhism to end suffering. If the point is to learn and grow. To end suffering for ourselves and others. If it is to grow in compassion. How can we support an behavior that would cause just the opposite of what we are trying to do and why we are all here.

                                    Just a thought or two form my heart to yours.

                                    Wayne

                                    --- In Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com, ken <gebser@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > First, let me apologize for permitting several rather abrasive posts by
                                    > one of our members. I'm of two minds about this sort of thing: On the
                                    > one hand, I consider this email discussion list much like an online
                                    > sangha and so, like a sangha of the non-virtual kind, we should all
                                    > treat one another with respect and cordiality. On the other hand, we're
                                    > all stuck here in samsara and so have to at least put up with various
                                    > kinds of suffering, including annoying emails, and find ways to deal
                                    > with it. So the posts from that one misguided individual might provide
                                    > us the opportunity to enhance our practice and gain abilities in dealing
                                    > with suffering (yes, not exactly extreme suffering, but a significant
                                    > annoyance), dispelling the possibility of anger, and maintaining
                                    > equipoise under adverse conditions.
                                    >
                                    > So, which policy should we have for this list...? One which makes this
                                    > list more a sangha where anything akin to flaming is not tolerated? Or
                                    > should we acknowledge that, although this is a buddhist discussion list,
                                    > this is still samsara where annoyances of ever part of the program?
                                    >
                                    > Your recommendations and opinions very much welcome.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > War is a failure of the imagination.
                                    > --William Blake
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On 07/17/2009 12:30 AM Donna Barrera.Swirlsdancing@ya wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello, sorry, I did not realize, or rather forgot that Buddhist
                                    > > meditation terms would be different than the one's I am used ot
                                    > > hearing.."Grounded and centered" is the term used in the West almost
                                    > > universally among meditators. Do you meditate? For a quick description
                                    > > of the terms, grounded relates basically to the base, or root chakra.
                                    > > (located at base of spine) Perhaps you have not heard that term but
                                    > > have heard the term Muladhara? Well, it is the same thing. I have no
                                    > > idea what it is called in Tibetan terms. The term I gave you is an
                                    > > Indian one. Perhaps it is used in Tibetan Buddhism, perhaps not. I am
                                    > > new to Tibetan terms and scripture, in manner of speaking; but that is a
                                    > > story in itself with which I will not bore you.since it does not relate
                                    > > directly to any of your questions.
                                    > >
                                    > > There is much that relates to the root chakra; but to make the
                                    > > explanation that I perceive you seek short, and spare
                                    > > you much discourse, let me just say that the root chakra is the source
                                    > > of vital energy. If one has certain issues in one's life, the is chakra
                                    > > will not allow the flow of a subtle energy called Kundalini.. If it is
                                    > > clear, that is to say one has no issues regarding certain feelings, like
                                    > > letting rage or various insecurities cloud the issue with which your are
                                    > > dealing; then, the expression "being grounded" is used inthe west almost
                                    > > universally, saying that one is treating upon the question point in a
                                    > > healthy, self secure, manner. That ought to do for a quickie,even though
                                    > > there is much to be learned about the chakras.
                                    > >
                                    > > Ok, "Centered" The Solar plexus chakra, or Manipura, has to do with
                                    > > your personal power and how you use it. Surely you have heard the
                                    > > expressions balanced, and unbalanced. so it might be easier for you to
                                    > > think of centeredness in that manner. So if one's Manipura chakra is
                                    > > clear, and functioning properly, one will deal with life, in all of it's
                                    > > dynamics, in a "centered" or balanced fashion. Like I have said. this
                                    > > doesn't even touch the tip of the iceberg when it comes to meditation
                                    > > and the chakras. I am sure that someone here can supply you with
                                    > > Buddhist references on the chakras,if you are interested. Then you can
                                    > > learn about how to ground and center, which are basic practices, from
                                    > > a Buddhist point of view, complete with the Tibetan names, should they
                                    > > differ. from the one's I have given.
                                    > >
                                    > > .
                                    > >
                                    > > As you read the posts here, you will find many words which
                                    > > are strange words to the Western ear. I was merely attempting to relate
                                    > > to you as a westerner, with terms that I thought you would be more
                                    > > likely to understand since they are pretty commonplace among western
                                    > > practitioners, being new to Buddhism as you say; and ,I can only
                                    > > surmise, to Buddhist terms, therefore.
                                    > >
                                    > > My mistake was in assuming that you had some western background that led
                                    > > you to Tibetan Buddhism.
                                    > >
                                    > > My most humble appologies, I certainly did not intend to elicit
                                    > > confusion, rancor, or put you on the defensive. I simply used terms I
                                    > > thought you might understand. My mistake.
                                    > >
                                    > > Perhaps the G_roup Owner_ would like to step in at this point and make
                                    > > some clarifications before this goes any further?? Since you seem to
                                    > > find my post so distasteful, you will receive no more correspondence
                                    > > directly from me until this matter is settled in a satisfactory
                                    > > manner for both of us. Please do not offer reply ot my posts to
                                    > > others. I think that will be best, since you seem to take such great
                                    > > exception to my post, even before knowing what it means.
                                    > >
                                    > > I find your post to be perilously close to flaming. I have done
                                    > > nothing to you to deserve this attitude from you nor the lack of respect
                                    > > in which iti s couched. Buddhism is a pah of peace. Please do not
                                    > > disturb my peace or the peace of others, especially not before the fact
                                    > > is established, while on this group site.
                                    > >
                                    > > Thank you.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
                                    > > *Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa*
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- On *Thu, 7/16/09, delec63@... /<delec63@...>/* wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > From: delec63@... <delec63@...>
                                    > > Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                                    > > To: Buddhism_101@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Date: Thursday, July 16, 2009, 12:17 PM
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Hiya Donna
                                    > > What do you mean by "grounded and centred perspective" .
                                    > > Just another random statement maybe ?
                                    > > In my humble opinion it is all so easy to throw these flipent
                                    > > coments around
                                    > > without any explaination
                                    > > So where is your situation ? Where is your centre ?
                                    > > Can explain ?
                                    > > xxx
                                    > > --- On *Mon, 13/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya
                                    > > /<fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>/* wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>
                                    > > Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                                    > > To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > > Date: Monday, 13 July, 2009, 9:38 PM
                                    > >
                                    > > thank you, E.B., for your post. you have a very grounded
                                    > > and centered perspective.
                                    > >
                                    > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                                    > > _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
                                    > > *Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa*
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- On *Mon, 7/13/09, Elizabeth Boswell /<xstchfan@yahoo. com>/*
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > From: Elizabeth Boswell <xstchfan@yahoo. com>
                                    > > Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                                    > > To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > > Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 6:21 AM
                                    > >
                                    > > So far I have not posted about this, because I am so new
                                    > > here. But I need to take exception here. His Holiness the
                                    > > Dalai Lama stated that the point of Buddism is "to be happy
                                    > > and to make others happy", so I don't see how everything we
                                    > > experience can be suffering.
                                    > >
                                    > > We do suffer, yes, when our ego tries to tell us that
                                    > > something is inherently good or bad and we attach ourselves
                                    > > to it as such. This causes either lust or anger, causing
                                    > > suffering. Please see "How to see yourself as you really
                                    > > are" by H. H. the fourtenth Dalai Lama.
                                    > >
                                    > > Thank you,
                                    > > Beth
                                    > >
                                    > > --- On *Sun, 7/12/09, Delec Delec /<delec63@yahoo. co.uk>/*
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > From: Delec Delec <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                                    > > Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                                    > > To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > > Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 PM
                                    > >
                                    > > Hiya Donna
                                    > > To clarify, everything that we experience, pain pleasure
                                    > > or whatever, is by its very nature suffering.
                                    > > This is explained in the 1st of The 4 Noble Truths, the
                                    > > truth of suffering
                                    > > which has 3 levels, the "suffering of suffering", the
                                    > > "suffering of change" and the "pervasive suffering of
                                    > > conditioning"
                                    > > Clear as mud eh ?
                                    > > This 1st level explains clearly Jades point/question, if
                                    > > she has one !
                                    > > I dont think there is any benefit to be gained by over
                                    > > complicating an already profound teaching, the 4 noble
                                    > > truths
                                    > > Your thoughts ?
                                    > > xxx
                                    > > --- On *Sun, 12/7/09, Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya
                                    > > /<fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>/* wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > From: Donna Barrera.Swirlsdanci ng@ya
                                    > > <fishycrackers99@ yahoo.com>
                                    > > Subject: Re: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                                    > > To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > > Date: Sunday, 12 July, 2009, 5:36 PM
                                    > >
                                    > > So, would we all agree that pain is objective but
                                    > > suffereing is subjective?
                                    > >
                                    > > Perhaps we could say that suffering is what ever
                                    > > process that one goes through while dealing with
                                    > > whatever pain one is feeling? Does that sound right?
                                    > >
                                    > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                                    > > _________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                                    > > _________ ________
                                    > > *Omnia Vivunt, Omnia Inter Se Conexa*
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- On *Sun, 7/12/09, delec63 /<delec63@yahoo.
                                    > > co.uk>/* wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > From: delec63 <delec63@yahoo. co.uk>
                                    > > Subject: [Buddhism_101] Re: Pain Versus Suffering
                                    > > To: Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > > Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:04 AM
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In Buddhism_101@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > > <http://us.mc576.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Buddhism_101%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                    > > Jade <collies85@ ..> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Hi Tara, Everyone,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I got to thinking that after you feel pain you
                                    > > end up suffering from that pain. There are
                                    > > different kinds of suffering too. Of course
                                    > > there are different pains too. But, suffering to
                                    > > me is the result of pain.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Greetings,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Jade
                                    > >
                                    > > Jade
                                    > > Having taken into account that this group is
                                    > > intended for us newbies to get a grip on basic
                                    > > Buddhist concepts, i still find some of your
                                    > > posts a little...er, well you know ?
                                    > > Lord Buddhas first teaching, or the first
                                    > > turning of the wheel of Dharma was about The
                                    > > Four Noble Truth.
                                    > >
                                    > > 1. the truth of suffering.
                                    > > 2. the truth of its origin.
                                    > > 3. the truth of its cessation.
                                    > > 4. the truth of the path that leads to its
                                    > > cessation.
                                    > >
                                    > > These truths form the basic structure for
                                    > > Buddhist practice.
                                    > > Refering back to the 1st NT, Buddha taught that
                                    > > suffering has to be recognised and identified as
                                    > > suffering and that there are 3 levels of
                                    > > suffering. The first one being the "suffering of
                                    > > suffering", which refers to the self evident
                                    > > suffering of pain, physical or emotional
                                    > > The Four Noble Truths are something i think you
                                    > > should investigate and study, as i try to do,
                                    > > and you may be able to answer some of your own
                                    > > questions and understand other peoples responses.
                                    > > I really do not think that posting random
                                    > > quotes, that you feel to be relevent helps
                                    > > anybodies understanding.
                                    > > I hope this helps
                                    > > Steve
                                    > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Cittamani
                                    Thanks to all kind and generous members for offering your views. Many were similar to mine and some new. I appreciate all. Here is a quote that closely
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jul 21, 2009

                                      Thanks to all kind and generous members for offering your views.  Many were similar to mine and some new.  I appreciate all. Here is a quote that closely represents my view [in words better than mine]. Hope you found the discussion interesting and informative as I did.

                                      Sarva mangalam,

                                      Tara

                                      -----------------

                                      The First Noble Truth declares unflinchingly, straight out, that pain is inherent in life itself just because everything is changing. The Second Noble Truth explains that suffering is what happens when we struggle with whatever our life experience is rather than accepting and opening to our experience with wise and compassionate response. From this point of view, there's a big difference between pain and suffering. Pain is inevitable; lives come with pain. Suffering is not inevitable. If suffering is what happens when we struggle with our experience because of our inability to accept it, then suffering is an optional extra.

                                      I misunderstood this when I started my practice and believed if I meditated hard enough I would be finished with all pain. That turned out to be a big mistake. I was disappointed when I discovered the error and embarrassed that I had been so naïve. It's obvious we are not going to finish with pain in this lifetime.

                                      The Buddha said, "Everything dear to us causes pain." Those of us who have chosen relational life have made the choice that the pain is worth it.

                                      - Sylvia Boorstein, It's Easier Than You Think

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