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RIMS ?'s

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  • ian
    I have decided to add a Rims system to my brew stand but have a some questions. I do not plan on step mashing and will be pre heating my mash water in a
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 1, 2010
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      I have decided to add a Rims system to my brew stand but have a some questions. I do not plan on step mashing and will be pre heating my mash water in a propane fired HLT. I do mostly 5 gallon batches with the occasional 10 gallon batch.

      Here are my questions.

      How many watts do i need to maintain or raise the temp a few degrees in case i miss my target and then maintain the temp?

      Would 500 be enough?

      At what Watt density will I start to scorth the wort using a march pump to constantly recirc the wort?



      Here are the two heat elements I am looking at.

      1. Firerod by watlow 120V 500W 12" long 5/8" round watt density of 22

      2. Firerod by watlow 120V 1000W 12" long 5/8" round watt density of 45

      they also make a 1500 with a watt density of 66. My thinking is the 500W should do the trick but I am new to this.


      thanks
      Ian
    • Dulcet Brewer
      Hi Ian. The formula for calculating heat energy is kW=(Volume * Specific Density * Specific Heat * Temp Difference) / Time in seconds. You need to approximate
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 9, 2010
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        Hi Ian.
        The formula for calculating heat energy is kW=(Volume * Specific Density *
        Specific Heat * Temp Difference) / Time in seconds.
        You need to approximate the SD - usually around 1060 to 1100 for mash wort.  Use
        a SP Ht of 3.9 and you wont be far away.
        A typical example is :  20 Litres * 1060  *  3.9 * 5 (degrees C)  /  600
        (seconds)  = 689 watts  ie 689 watt will raise 20 Liters of wort 5 degrees in 10
        minutes.

        As far as watts density is concerned, you need to pick the lowest possible, and
        you must ensure the heatstick is moving all the time - the faster the better. 
        Even the 22kW/m2 stick will generate a surface temp of over 200 degrees and
        scorching will occur at about 110-120C - the trick is to use the thermal lag of
        the fluid by moving the stick all the time.

        Best of luck with that.
         
        DulcetBrewer
        Perth, Western Australia
         
        was A Nudist illa
        but now the Oldest illaire



        ----- Original Message ----
        From: ian <wallace02mgd@...>
        To: BrewingEquipment@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 10:47:11 AM
        Subject: [BrewEquip] RIMS ?'s

        I have decided to add a Rims system to my brew stand but have a some questions.
        I do not plan on step mashing and will be pre heating my mash water in a propane
        fired HLT. I do mostly 5 gallon batches with the occasional 10 gallon batch.

        Here are my questions.

        How many watts do i need to maintain or raise the temp a few degrees in case i
        miss my target and then maintain the temp?


        Would 500 be enough?

        At what Watt density will I start to scorth the wort using a march pump to
        constantly recirc the wort?



        Here are the two heat elements I am looking at.

        1. Firerod by watlow 120V 500W 12" long 5/8" round watt density of 22

        2. Firerod by watlow 120V 1000W 12" long 5/8" round watt density of 45

        they also make a 1500 with a watt density of 66. My thinking is the 500W should
        do the trick but I am new to this.


        thanks
        Ian



        ------------------------------------

        Please also visit our other Yahoo Group which is EXCLUSIVELY about growing hops
        -- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Grow-Hops -- Thanks.Yahoo! Groups Links
      • Ian Jones
        My plan was to have the stick mounted in a stainless tube that would attach directly to my mash tun with a quick disconect a tee at the other end where the
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 9, 2010
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          My plan was to have the stick mounted in a stainless tube that would attach directly to my mash tun with a quick disconect a tee at the other end where the heat stick would go straight in and the fluid would run down the other port and to the march pump then back to the top of the grain bed. Do you think the march pump would create enough flow to keep the wort from scorching?

          --- On Tue, 11/9/10, Dulcet Brewer <dulcetbrewer@...> wrote:

          From: Dulcet Brewer <dulcetbrewer@...>
          Subject: Re: [BrewEquip] RIMS ?'s
          To: BrewingEquipment@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Tuesday, November 9, 2010, 12:53 AM

           
          Hi Ian.
          The formula for calculating heat energy is kW=(Volume * Specific Density *
          Specific Heat * Temp Difference) / Time in seconds.
          You need to approximate the SD - usually around 1060 to 1100 for mash wort.  Use
          a SP Ht of 3.9 and you wont be far away.
          A typical example is :  20 Litres * 1060  *  3.9 * 5 (degrees C)  /  600
          (seconds)  = 689 watts  ie 689 watt will raise 20 Liters of wort 5 degrees in 10
          minutes.

          As far as watts density is concerned, you need to pick the lowest possible, and
          you must ensure the heatstick is moving all the time - the faster the better. 
          Even the 22kW/m2 stick will generate a surface temp of over 200 degrees and
          scorching will occur at about 110-120C - the trick is to use the thermal lag of
          the fluid by moving the stick all the time.

          Best of luck with that.
           
          DulcetBrewer
          Perth, Western Australia
           
          was A Nudist illa
          but now the Oldest illaire

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: ian <wallace02mgd@...>
          To: BrewingEquipment@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 10:47:11 AM
          Subject: [BrewEquip] RIMS ?'s

          I have decided to add a Rims system to my brew stand but have a some questions.
          I do not plan on step mashing and will be pre heating my mash water in a propane
          fired HLT. I do mostly 5 gallon batches with the occasional 10 gallon batch.

          Here are my questions.

          How many watts do i need to maintain or raise the temp a few degrees in case i
          miss my target and then maintain the temp?

          Would 500 be enough?

          At what Watt density will I start to scorth the wort using a march pump to
          constantly recirc the wort?

          Here are the two heat elements I am looking at.

          1. Firerod by watlow 120V 500W 12" long 5/8" round watt density of 22

          2. Firerod by watlow 120V 1000W 12" long 5/8" round watt density of 45

          they also make a 1500 with a watt density of 66. My thinking is the 500W should
          do the trick but I am new to this.

          thanks
          Ian

          ------------------------------------

          Please also visit our other Yahoo Group which is EXCLUSIVELY about growing hops
          -- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Grow-Hops -- Thanks.Yahoo! Groups Links


        • Tom Kramer
          Arrgh! Energy is a measure of the ability to do work or raise temperature, Power is how fast energy is delivered. Power is measured in watts or joules/second,
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 9, 2010
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            Arrgh!

            Energy is a measure of the ability to do work or raise temperature,
            Power is how fast energy is delivered.
            Power is measured in watts or joules/second, energy is joules or watt-seconds.
            So a 1000 watt heater uses 1000 joules/second of power
            and in 1 second delivers 1000 joules of energy or heat.
            Otherwise your math is good.


            On Nov 9, 2010, at 12:53 AM, Dulcet Brewer wrote:

            > Hi Ian.
            > The formula for calculating heat energy is kW=(Volume * Specific Density *
            > Specific Heat * Temp Difference) / Time in seconds.
            > You need to approximate the SD - usually around 1060 to 1100 for mash wort. Use
            > a SP Ht of 3.9 and you wont be far away.
            > A typical example is : 20 Litres * 1060 * 3.9 * 5 (degrees C) / 600
            > (seconds) = 689 watts ie 689 watt will raise 20 Liters of wort 5 degrees in 10
            > minutes.
            >
            > As far as watts density is concerned, you need to pick the lowest possible, and
            > you must ensure the heatstick is moving all the time - the faster the better.
            > Even the 22kW/m2 stick will generate a surface temp of over 200 degrees and
            > scorching will occur at about 110-120C - the trick is to use the thermal lag of
            > the fluid by moving the stick all the time.
            >
            > Best of luck with that.
            >
            > DulcetBrewer
            > Perth, Western Australia
            >
            > was A Nudist illa
            > but now the Oldest illaire
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > From: ian <wallace02mgd@...>
            > To: BrewingEquipment@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 10:47:11 AM
            > Subject: [BrewEquip] RIMS ?'s
            >
            > I have decided to add a Rims system to my brew stand but have a some questions.
            > I do not plan on step mashing and will be pre heating my mash water in a propane
            > fired HLT. I do mostly 5 gallon batches with the occasional 10 gallon batch.
            >
            > Here are my questions.
            >
            > How many watts do i need to maintain or raise the temp a few degrees in case i
            > miss my target and then maintain the temp?
            >
            >
            > Would 500 be enough?
            >
            > At what Watt density will I start to scorth the wort using a march pump to
            > constantly recirc the wort?
            >
            >
            >
            > Here are the two heat elements I am looking at.
            >
            > 1. Firerod by watlow 120V 500W 12" long 5/8" round watt density of 22
            >
            > 2. Firerod by watlow 120V 1000W 12" long 5/8" round watt density of 45
            >
            > they also make a 1500 with a watt density of 66. My thinking is the 500W should
            > do the trick but I am new to this.
            >
            >
            > thanks
            > Ian
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Please also visit our other Yahoo Group which is EXCLUSIVELY about growing hops
            > -- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Grow-Hops -- Thanks.Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Please also visit our other Yahoo Group which is EXCLUSIVELY about growing hops -- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Grow-Hops -- Thanks.Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
          • Dulcet Brewer
            Hi Ian. Not enough info to make a meaningful observation, but my immediate reaction is that the March will not put enough volume past the heatstick to prevent
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 9, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Ian.
               
              Not enough info to make a meaningful observation, but my immediate reaction is that the March will not put enough volume past the heatstick to prevent scorch.   Putting elements in enclosed spaces is fraught with difficulty at the best of times, but if all else fails, build it and test it.  Worst you can do is burn some wort.
                 
              DulcetBrewer
              Perth, Western Australia
               
              was A Nudist illa
              but now the Oldest illaire



              From: Ian Jones <wallace02mgd@...>
              To: BrewingEquipment@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, November 10, 2010 12:28:10 AM
              Subject: Re: [BrewEquip] RIMS ?'s



              My plan was to have the stick mounted in a stainless tube that would attach directly to my mash tun with a quick disconect a tee at the other end where the heat stick would go straight in and the fluid would run down the other port and to the march pump then back to the top of the grain bed. Do you think the march pump would create enough flow to keep the wort from scorching?

              --- On Tue, 11/9/10, Dulcet Brewer <dulcetbrewer@...> wrote:

              From: Dulcet Brewer <dulcetbrewer@...>
              Subject: Re: [BrewEquip] RIMS ?'s
              To: BrewingEquipment@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, November 9, 2010, 12:53 AM

               
              Hi Ian.
              The formula for calculating heat energy is kW=(Volume * Specific Density *
              Specific Heat * Temp Difference) / Time in seconds.
              You need to approximate the SD - usually around 1060 to 1100 for mash wort.  Use
              a SP Ht of 3.9 and you wont be far away.
              A typical example is :  20 Litres * 1060  *  3.9 * 5 (degrees C)  /  600
              (seconds)  = 689 watts  ie 689 watt will raise 20 Liters of wort 5 degrees in 10
              minutes.

              As far as watts density is concerned, you need to pick the lowest possible, and
              you must ensure the heatstick is moving all the time - the faster the better. 
              Even the 22kW/m2 stick will generate a surface temp of over 200 degrees and
              scorching will occur at about 110-120C - the trick is to use the thermal lag of
              the fluid by moving the stick all the time.

              Best of luck with that.
               
              DulcetBrewer
              Perth, Western Australia
               
              was A Nudist illa
              but now the Oldest illaire

              ----- Original Message ----
              From: ian <wallace02mgd@...>
              To: BrewingEquipment@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 10:47:11 AM
              Subject: [BrewEquip] RIMS ?'s

              I have decided to add a Rims system to my brew stand but have a some questions.
              I do not plan on step mashing and will be pre heating my mash water in a propane
              fired HLT. I do mostly 5 gallon batches with the occasional 10 gallon batch.

              Here are my questions.

              How many watts do i need to maintain or raise the temp a few degrees in case i
              miss my target and then maintain the temp?

              Would 500 be enough?

              At what Watt density will I start to scorth the wort using a march pump to
              constantly recirc the wort?

              Here are the two heat elements I am looking at.

              1. Firerod by watlow 120V 500W 12" long 5/8" round watt density of 22

              2. Firerod by watlow 120V 1000W 12" long 5/8" round watt density of 45

              they also make a 1500 with a watt density of 66. My thinking is the 500W should
              do the trick but I am new to this.

              thanks
              Ian

              ------------------------------------

              Please also visit our other Yahoo Group which is EXCLUSIVELY about growing hops
              -- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Grow-Hops -- Thanks.Yahoo! Groups Links





            • Ian Jones
              I found a element that is 500w 24 long and 5/8 diameter i come up with a watt density of 5 watts per square inch. From what i can come up with most of the
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 10, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                I found a element that is 500w 24" long and 5/8 diameter i come up with a watt density of 5 watts per square inch. From what i can come up with most of the water heater elements that are used are around 1000w 45 inches long (two rows folded over) and 5/16 in diameter giving them a watt density in the upper 20's. depending on exact dementions.
                 
                With 500w i should be able to heat 5 gallons of wort 5 degrees F in 7.71 minutes or 10 gallons in 15.43 minutes. Since I mostly just want to maintain temperature or raise it a couple degrees if I miss my target I think this will get the job done hopefully without scorching problems.
                 
                Also if I don't mount the heater in a enclosure what  are my other options?

                --- On Tue, 11/9/10, Dulcet Brewer <dulcetbrewer@...> wrote:

                From: Dulcet Brewer <dulcetbrewer@...>
                Subject: Re: [BrewEquip] RIMS ?'s
                To: BrewingEquipment@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Tuesday, November 9, 2010, 11:35 PM

                 
                Hi Ian.
                 
                Not enough info to make a meaningful observation, but my immediate reaction is that the March will not put enough volume past the heatstick to prevent scorch.   Putting elements in enclosed spaces is fraught with difficulty at the best of times, but if all else fails, build it and test it.  Worst you can do is burn some wort.
                   
                DulcetBrewer
                Perth, Western Australia
                 
                was A Nudist illa
                but now the Oldest illaire



                From: Ian Jones <wallace02mgd@...>
                To: BrewingEquipment@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wed, November 10, 2010 12:28:10 AM
                Subject: Re: [BrewEquip] RIMS ?'s



                My plan was to have the stick mounted in a stainless tube that would attach directly to my mash tun with a quick disconect a tee at the other end where the heat stick would go straight in and the fluid would run down the other port and to the march pump then back to the top of the grain bed. Do you think the march pump would create enough flow to keep the wort from scorching?

                --- On Tue, 11/9/10, Dulcet Brewer <dulcetbrewer@...> wrote:

                From: Dulcet Brewer <dulcetbrewer@...>
                Subject: Re: [BrewEquip] RIMS ?'s
                To: BrewingEquipment@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Tuesday, November 9, 2010, 12:53 AM

                 
                Hi Ian.
                The formula for calculating heat energy is kW=(Volume * Specific Density *
                Specific Heat * Temp Difference) / Time in seconds.
                You need to approximate the SD - usually around 1060 to 1100 for mash wort.  Use
                a SP Ht of 3.9 and you wont be far away.
                A typical example is :  20 Litres * 1060  *  3.9 * 5 (degrees C)  /  600
                (seconds)  = 689 watts  ie 689 watt will raise 20 Liters of wort 5 degrees in 10
                minutes.

                As far as watts density is concerned, you need to pick the lowest possible, and
                you must ensure the heatstick is moving all the time - the faster the better. 
                Even the 22kW/m2 stick will generate a surface temp of over 200 degrees and
                scorching will occur at about 110-120C - the trick is to use the thermal lag of
                the fluid by moving the stick all the time.

                Best of luck with that.
                 
                DulcetBrewer
                Perth, Western Australia
                 
                was A Nudist illa
                but now the Oldest illaire

                ----- Original Message ----
                From: ian <wallace02mgd@...>
                To: BrewingEquipment@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 10:47:11 AM
                Subject: [BrewEquip] RIMS ?'s

                I have decided to add a Rims system to my brew stand but have a some questions.
                I do not plan on step mashing and will be pre heating my mash water in a propane
                fired HLT. I do mostly 5 gallon batches with the occasional 10 gallon batch.

                Here are my questions.

                How many watts do i need to maintain or raise the temp a few degrees in case i
                miss my target and then maintain the temp?

                Would 500 be enough?

                At what Watt density will I start to scorth the wort using a march pump to
                constantly recirc the wort?

                Here are the two heat elements I am looking at.

                1. Firerod by watlow 120V 500W 12" long 5/8" round watt density of 22

                2. Firerod by watlow 120V 1000W 12" long 5/8" round watt density of 45

                they also make a 1500 with a watt density of 66. My thinking is the 500W should
                do the trick but I am new to this.

                thanks
                Ian

                ------------------------------------

                Please also visit our other Yahoo Group which is EXCLUSIVELY about growing hops
                -- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Grow-Hops -- Thanks.Yahoo! Groups Links






              • Bob
                If you re concerned about scorching have you considered making a HERMS? That s what I use for the very reason of preventing wort scorching. It s impossible to
                Message 7 of 8 , Nov 10, 2010
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                  If you're concerned about scorching have you considered making a HERMS?
                  That's what I use for the very reason of preventing wort scorching.
                  It's impossible to do in a HERMS.

                  Anyhow it's something to think about.

                  Bob O.
                • trebat
                  I use a brew stick that works perfectly as an alternative to mounting a water heater. I actually use the brew stick with my electric stove to do 6 gal boils. I
                  Message 8 of 8 , Nov 10, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I use a brew stick that works perfectly as an alternative to mounting a water heater. I actually use the brew stick with my electric stove to do 6 gal boils. I have never had an issue with scorched wort.  Here is a link to the construction of a brew stick...

                    http://www.3d0g.net/brewing/heatstick


                    From: Ian Jones <wallace02mgd@...>
                    To: BrewingEquipment@yahoogroups.com
                    Cc:
                    Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 10:53:40 AM
                    Subject: Re: [BrewEquip] RIMS ?'s

                     
                    I found a element that is 500w 24" long and 5/8 diameter i come up with a watt density of 5 watts per square inch. From what i can come up with most of the water heater elements that are used are around 1000w 45 inches long (two rows folded over) and 5/16 in diameter giving them a watt density in the upper 20's. depending on exact dementions.
                     
                    With 500w i should be able to heat 5 gallons of wort 5 degrees F in 7.71 minutes or 10 gallons in 15.43 minutes. Since I mostly just want to maintain temperature or raise it a couple degrees if I miss my target I think this will get the job done hopefully without scorching problems.
                     
                    Also if I don't mount the heater in a enclosure what  are my other options?

                    --- On Tue, 11/9/10, Dulcet Brewer <dulcetbrewer@...> wrote:

                    From: Dulcet Brewer <dulcetbrewer@...>
                    Subject: Re: [BrewEquip] RIMS ?'s
                    To: BrewingEquipment@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tuesday, November 9, 2010, 11:35 PM

                     
                    Hi Ian.
                     
                    Not enough info to make a meaningful observation, but my immediate reaction is that the March will not put enough volume past the heatstick to prevent scorch.   Putting elements in enclosed spaces is fraught with difficulty at the best of times, but if all else fails, build it and test it.  Worst you can do is burn some wort.
                       
                    DulcetBrewer
                    Perth, Western Australia
                     
                    was A Nudist illa
                    but now the Oldest illaire


                    From: Ian Jones <wallace02mgd@...>
                    To: BrewingEquipment@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wed, November 10, 2010 12:28:10 AM
                    Subject: Re: [BrewEquip] RIMS ?'s



                    My plan was to have the stick mounted in a stainless tube that would attach directly to my mash tun with a quick disconect a tee at the other end where the heat stick would go straight in and the fluid would run down the other port and to the march pump then back to the top of the grain bed. Do you think the march pump would create enough flow to keep the wort from scorching?

                    --- On Tue, 11/9/10, Dulcet Brewer <dulcetbrewer@...> wrote:

                    From: Dulcet Brewer <dulcetbrewer@...>
                    Subject: Re: [BrewEquip] RIMS ?'s
                    To: BrewingEquipment@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tuesday, November 9, 2010, 12:53 AM

                     
                    Hi Ian.
                    The formula for calculating heat energy is kW=(Volume * Specific Density *
                    Specific Heat * Temp Difference) / Time in seconds.
                    You need to approximate the SD - usually around 1060 to 1100 for mash wort.  Use
                    a SP Ht of 3.9 and you wont be far away.
                    A typical example is :  20 Litres * 1060  *  3.9 * 5 (degrees C)  /  600
                    (seconds)  = 689 watts  ie 689 watt will raise 20 Liters of wort 5 degrees in 10
                    minutes.

                    As far as watts density is concerned, you need to pick the lowest possible, and
                    you must ensure the heatstick is moving all the time - the faster the better. 
                    Even the 22kW/m2 stick will generate a surface temp of over 200 degrees and
                    scorching will occur at about 110-120C - the trick is to use the thermal lag of
                    the fluid by moving the stick all the time.

                    Best of luck with that.
                     
                    DulcetBrewer
                    Perth, Western Australia
                     
                    was A Nudist illa
                    but now the Oldest illaire

                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: ian <wallace02mgd@...>
                    To: BrewingEquipment@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 10:47:11 AM
                    Subject: [BrewEquip] RIMS ?'s

                    I have decided to add a Rims system to my brew stand but have a some questions.
                    I do not plan on step mashing and will be pre heating my mash water in a propane
                    fired HLT. I do mostly 5 gallon batches with the occasional 10 gallon batch.

                    Here are my questions.

                    How many watts do i need to maintain or raise the temp a few degrees in case i
                    miss my target and then maintain the temp?

                    Would 500 be enough?

                    At what Watt density will I start to scorth the wort using a march pump to
                    constantly recirc the wort?

                    Here are the two heat elements I am looking at.

                    1. Firerod by watlow 120V 500W 12" long 5/8" round watt density of 22

                    2. Firerod by watlow 120V 1000W 12" long 5/8" round watt density of 45

                    they also make a 1500 with a watt density of 66. My thinking is the 500W should
                    do the trick but I am new to this.

                    thanks
                    Ian

                    ------------------------------------

                    Please also visit our other Yahoo Group which is EXCLUSIVELY about growing hops
                    -- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Grow-Hops -- Thanks.Yahoo! Groups Links









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