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Re: wort chiller ???

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  • Reverend R Clark
    Greetings Stephen and ALL! ... ...the ... Friday (29FEB2K8) I received shipment from Midwest of the SS wort chiller (amongst other goodies)...
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 2 7:44 AM
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      Greetings Stephen and ALL!

      > Stephen Crawford wrote:
      <SNIP>...the
      > > properties of copper transfer heat much more effeciently than
      > > stainless steel.

      Friday (29FEB2K8) I received shipment from Midwest of the SS wort
      chiller (amongst other goodies)...

      http://www.midwestsupplies.com/products/ProdByID.aspx?ProdID=7733
      <http://www.midwestsupplies.com/products/ProdByID.aspx?ProdID=7733>.

      While I've not got my brewing rig up and running yet having only just
      gotten the spigot...

      (http://www.midwestsupplies.com/products/ProdByID.aspx?ProdID=4496
      <http://www.midwestsupplies.com/products/ProdByID.aspx?ProdID=4496>)

      ...installed on my keggle. So I can't yet offer my own experience,
      however, in the package from Midwest is their hardcopy catalog and on
      the first page it has an annoucement about the SS chillers in which
      the blurb states,

      "The stainless version works just like a copper immersion wort
      chiller and cools 94% as efficiently. We at Midwest believe the
      benefits of stainless steel's long term durability and ease of
      cleaning and sanitizing more than compensate for any loss in cooling
      efficiency. This piece of equipment will be looking nice as the rest
      of your stainless brewing gear for years to come."

      Interesting ay? What do ya'll think of this?

      Thanks for Everything!
      One Love, R
      ++++++
      "I can walk on water, but I stagger on alcohol."
      ++++++
    • Reverend R Clark
      Greetings Folks! Reverend R Clark wrote: ... ... I find upon further reflection that plastic is difficult to
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 2 8:59 AM
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        Greetings Folks!

        Reverend R Clark <clark@...> wrote:
        <snipperino>
        > Even without the presence of verdigris I am thinking that wort is
        > on the acid side of things and would leach copper into the brew.
        <snipperama>
        > I intend to avoid using PVC and other vinyl compounds in brewing.
        > http://www.pvcfree.org/ <http://www.pvcfree.org/>

        I find upon further reflection that plastic is difficult to replace
        altogether and the normal tubing for racking off and bottling is
        actually a form of less toxic vinyl.

        According to the following link it seems that the best plastics
        available are the polyolefins.

        http://archive.greenpeace.org/toxics/pvcdatabase/bad.html
        <http://archive.greenpeace.org/toxics/pvcdatabase/bad.html>

        "Polyolefins such as Polyethylene (PE) and Polypropylene (PP) are
        simpler polymer structures that do not need plasticizers, although
        they do use additives such as UV and heat stabilizers, antioxidants
        and in some applications flame retardants. The polyolefins pose fewer
        risks and have the highest potential for mechanical recycling. Both
        PE and PP are versatile and cheap, and can be designed to replace
        almost all PVC applications. PE can be made either hard, or very
        flexible, without the use of plasticizers. PP is easy to mold and can
        also be used in a wide range of applications.

        In comparison with PVC, PE and PP use fewer problematic additives,
        have reduced leaching potential in landfills, reduced potential for
        dioxin formation during burning (provided that brominated/chlorinated
        flame retardants are not used), and reduced technical problems and
        costs during recycling."

        PE and PP tubings are made by NewAge Industries with the PE seeming
        to be the better choice as it has a working temperature cap of 160
        degrees F.

        http://www.newageindustries.com/tubehose.asp
        <http://www.newageindustries.com/tubehose.asp>

        Alternatively,
        http://www.instechlabs.com/Infusion/tubing/polyethylene.php
        <http://www.instechlabs.com/Infusion/tubing/polyethylene.php>

        In searching I find many manufacturers and am experiencing difficulty
        in finding a retail outlet for PE tubing/pipe and fittings.

        Still and all bottomline the GoodHouseKeepingSealO'Approval is
        primarily clear on a truly short list of inert materials IMNSHO:
        Glass & Stainless Steel.

        Just my 2%. What do you think?

        Thanks for Everything!
        One Love, R
        ++++++
        "If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at
        least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things."
        - Rene Descartes (1596-1650) French philosopher

        "Doubt everything at least once, even the proposition that two times
        two equals four."
        - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg, scientist and philosopher (1742-1799)
        ++++++
      • Joseph Kubik
        Home Depot / Lowes / your hardware store are likely to carry Cross-linked polyethylene as PEX. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PEX That being said, it is not a
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 2 9:41 AM
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          Home Depot / Lowes / your hardware store are likely to carry
          Cross-linked polyethylene as PEX.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PEX

          That being said, it is not a good replacement for highly flexible hoses.
          I suggest food grade silicone tubing for flexible hoses, if you are
          concerned with the chemistry of your plastics.
          -Joseph-

          Reverend R Clark wrote:
          >
          > Greetings Folks!
          >
          > Reverend R Clark <clark@...
          > <mailto:clark%40acceleration.net>> wrote:
          > <snipperino>
          > > Even without the presence of verdigris I am thinking that wort is
          > > on the acid side of things and would leach copper into the brew.
          > <snipperama>
          > > I intend to avoid using PVC and other vinyl compounds in brewing.
          > > http://www.pvcfree.org/ <http://www.pvcfree.org/>
          > <http://www.pvcfree.org/ <http://www.pvcfree.org/>>
          >
          > I find upon further reflection that plastic is difficult to replace
          > altogether and the normal tubing for racking off and bottling is
          > actually a form of less toxic vinyl.
          >
          > According to the following link it seems that the best plastics
          > available are the polyolefins.
          >
          > http://archive.greenpeace.org/toxics/pvcdatabase/bad.html
          > <http://archive.greenpeace.org/toxics/pvcdatabase/bad.html>
          > <http://archive.greenpeace.org/toxics/pvcdatabase/bad.html
          > <http://archive.greenpeace.org/toxics/pvcdatabase/bad.html>>
          >
          > "Polyolefins such as Polyethylene (PE) and Polypropylene (PP) are
          > simpler polymer structures that do not need plasticizers, although
          > they do use additives such as UV and heat stabilizers, antioxidants
          > and in some applications flame retardants. The polyolefins pose fewer
          > risks and have the highest potential for mechanical recycling. Both
          > PE and PP are versatile and cheap, and can be designed to replace
          > almost all PVC applications. PE can be made either hard, or very
          > flexible, without the use of plasticizers. PP is easy to mold and can
          > also be used in a wide range of applications.
          >
          > In comparison with PVC, PE and PP use fewer problematic additives,
          > have reduced leaching potential in landfills, reduced potential for
          > dioxin formation during burning (provided that brominated/chlorinated
          > flame retardants are not used), and reduced technical problems and
          > costs during recycling."
          >
          > PE and PP tubings are made by NewAge Industries with the PE seeming
          > to be the better choice as it has a working temperature cap of 160
          > degrees F.
          >
          > http://www.newageindustries.com/tubehose.asp
          > <http://www.newageindustries.com/tubehose.asp>
          > <http://www.newageindustries.com/tubehose.asp
          > <http://www.newageindustries.com/tubehose.asp>>
          >
          > Alternatively,
          > http://www.instechlabs.com/Infusion/tubing/polyethylene.php
          > <http://www.instechlabs.com/Infusion/tubing/polyethylene.php>
          > <http://www.instechlabs.com/Infusion/tubing/polyethylene.php
          > <http://www.instechlabs.com/Infusion/tubing/polyethylene.php>>
          >
          > In searching I find many manufacturers and am experiencing difficulty
          > in finding a retail outlet for PE tubing/pipe and fittings.
          >
          > Still and all bottomline the GoodHouseKeepingSealO'Approval is
          > primarily clear on a truly short list of inert materials IMNSHO:
          > Glass & Stainless Steel.
          >
          > Just my 2%. What do you think?
          >
          > Thanks for Everything!
          > One Love, R
          > ++++++
          > "If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at
          > least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things."
          > - Rene Descartes (1596-1650) French philosopher
          >
          > "Doubt everything at least once, even the proposition that two times
          > two equals four."
          > - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg, scientist and philosopher (1742-1799)
          > ++++++
          >
          >
        • Bill Velek
          ... snip ... snip Their .pdf downloadable catalog says the same thing. ... Both chillers have the same length of coil -- 25 -- but no diameter of tube is
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 2 10:09 AM
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            Reverend R Clark wrote:

            > > Stephen Crawford wrote:
            > <SNIP>...the
            > > > properties of copper transfer heat much more effeciently than
            > > > stainless steel.
            >
            > Friday (29FEB2K8) I received shipment from Midwest of the SS wort
            > chiller (amongst other goodies)...
            >
            > http://www.midwestsupplies.com/products/ProdByID.aspx?ProdID=7733
            snip
            > ... in the package from Midwest is their hardcopy catalog and on
            > the first page it has an annoucement about the SS chillers in which
            > the blurb states,
            >
            > "The stainless version works just like a copper immersion wort
            > chiller and cools 94% as efficiently. ...

            snip

            Their .pdf downloadable catalog says the same thing.

            > Interesting ay? What do ya'll think of this?

            Both chillers have the same length of coil -- 25' -- but no diameter of
            tube is given for their SS version, and we don't know the thickness of
            the tube wall, either. I imagine that they are using thinner gauge
            metal and larger diameter tube on the SS so that they essentially intend
            to say that the 25' SS cools 94% as efficiently as _THEIR_ 25' copper
            cooler. Anything else defies science and would, in my opinion,
            constitute false advertising. Of course, that's not _exactly_ what they
            say because they sort of lead one to believe that SS in general is 94%
            as efficient as copper. It's NOT!! It isn't possible. And so I think
            the ad is misleading. The formula for heat transfer -- Fourier's Law --
            uses thermal conductivity of a material as a direct factor as follows:
            q = k A dT / s -- where ...
            q = heat transferred per unit time
            A = heat transfer area
            k = thermal conductivity of material
            dT = Temperature difference across the material
            s = material thickness

            One problem with comparing the values for copper and stainless is that
            they seem to be given a WIDE range of values on the Intenet; e.g., for
            copper I've seen as high as 401 and as low as 231, and for SS as high as
            45 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_conductivity> and as low as
            7. Giving the greatest benefit of the doubt to Midwest, copper is AT
            LEAST five times as conductive as SS (it's generally considered a LOT
            more conductive than that), and with the direct factoring of those
            values into the formula, ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, I can't see how
            the SS could have better than _20%_ of the efficiency of the copper.

            Cheers.

            Bill Velek
          • Reverend R Clark
            Greetings Bill and ALL! Thank You for your cogent reply, your comments are most convincing, I am more interested than ever in seeing what happens when the
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 3 4:00 AM
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              Greetings Bill and ALL!

              Thank You for your cogent reply, your comments are most convincing, I
              am more interested than ever in seeing what happens when "the rubber
              meets the road" and I actually get a chance to see the SS chiller in
              action. I've already considered that because the municipal water
              supply here in Florida isn't very chill that I might need to use ice
              water in a washtub recirculated by a pump to get the job done.

              As an aside, I notice that some folks use pumps to move brewing
              liquor, sparge water, wort, beer. I imagine that an aquarium pump
              would suffice for cool liquid. Do you have any recommendations as to
              brands and models that will not taint our precious liquids when warm
              or even hot?

              Bill Velek <billvelek@...> wrote:
              <snipperino>
              > Both chillers have the same length of coil -- 25' -- but no
              diameter of
              > tube is given for their SS version, and we don't know the thickness
              of
              > the tube wall, either. I imagine that they are using thinner gauge
              > metal and larger diameter tube on the SS so that they essentially
              <snipperama>

              I'm away from home so I can't measure the SS tubing in the coil I
              bought. As I recall it seems to be 3/8" which I think is in keeping
              with Midwest's comparable copper model. The shipping weight is the
              same for copper and SS at four pounds so no telling there. The actual
              heft of the SS one in hand was quite light so I suspect that, as you
              say above, the wall thickness is quite thin.

              If all that you surmise is true I may very well have a legitimate
              grievance with Midwest IRT their misleading me and prolly other
              credulous folks as well.

              Thanks for Everything!
              One Love, R
              ++++++
              "Alcohol doesn't solve any problems,
              and then again, neither does milk."
              ++++++
            • Joe Strain aka Yodar
              I am in Florida too. 85 degree groundwater sux I use this in my ice tub http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1229/6309647/12253703/287267741.jpg goldmine-elec.com
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 3 4:14 AM
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                I am in Florida too. 85 degree groundwater sux  I use this in my ice tub

                http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1229/6309647/12253703/287267741.jpg

                goldmine-elec.com   $7.95

                put hose barbs on the outlets

                pumps like a s.o.b

                yodar

                Reverend R Clark <clark@...> wrote:
                Greetings Bill and ALL!

                Thank You for your cogent reply, your comments are most convincing, I
                am more interested than ever in seeing what happens when "the rubber
                meets the road" and I actually get a chance to see the SS chiller in
                action. I've already considered that because the municipal water
                supply here in Florida isn't very chill that I might need to use ice
                water in a washtub recirculated by a pump to get the job done.

                As an aside, I notice that some folks use pumps to move brewing
                liquor, sparge water, wort, beer. I imagine that an aquarium pump
                would suffice for cool liquid. Do you have any recommendations as to
                brands and models that will not taint our precious liquids when warm
                or even hot?

                Bill Velek <billvelek@. ..> wrote:
                <snipperino>
                > Both chillers have the same length of coil -- 25' -- but no
                diameter of
                > tube is given for their SS version, and we don't know the thickness
                of
                > the tube wall, either. I imagine that they are using thinner gauge
                > metal and larger diameter tube on the SS so that they essentially
                <snipperama>

                I'm away from home so I can't measure the SS tubing in the coil I
                bought. As I recall it seems to be 3/8" which I think is in keeping
                with Midwest's comparable copper model. The shipping weight is the
                same for copper and SS at four pounds so no telling there. The actual
                heft of the SS one in hand was quite light so I suspect that, as you
                say above, the wall thickness is quite thin.

                If all that you surmise is true I may very well have a legitimate
                grievance with Midwest IRT their misleading me and prolly other
                credulous folks as well.

                Thanks for Everything!
                One Love, R
                ++++++
                "Alcohol doesn't solve any problems,
                and then again, neither does milk."
                ++++++





                Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

              • Reverend R Clark
                Greetings Joseph and ALL! Thanks for your reply. Yes silicone does look promising http://www.newageindustries.com/silicone_tubing.asp
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 3 4:21 AM
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                  Greetings Joseph and ALL!

                  Thanks for your reply. Yes silicone does look promising
                  http://www.newageindustries.com/silicone_tubing.asp
                  <http://www.newageindustries.com/silicone_tubing.asp> especially as
                  it is reputed to perform well when exposed to heat.

                  Internal searches for "PEX pipe" with Lowe's and Home Despot Dot Com
                  net nothing but a few brass connectors for PEX piping and they are
                  the biggest suppliers of building materials in my area (Gainesville,
                  FL 32601). I am also needing to replace the plumbing in my aged home
                  and I am thinking that this seems to be a viable alternative, i.e.
                  green enough to suit me.

                  Joseph Kubik <shrike@...> wrote:
                  <snip>
                  > Home Depot / Lowes / your hardware store are likely to carry
                  > Cross-linked polyethylene as PEX.
                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PEX
                  >
                  > That being said, it is not a good replacement for highly flexible
                  hoses.
                  > I suggest food grade silicone tubing for flexible hoses, if you are
                  > concerned with the chemistry of your plastics.
                  <snip>

                  Thanks for Everything!
                  One Love, R
                  ++++++
                  An alcoholic is someone you don't like that drinks as much as you do.
                  ++++++
                • kensail
                  ... I have a problem similar to this as I live in oklahoma and it gets hotter than florida in the summer. My technique is simple and very effective. equipment:
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 3 6:36 AM
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                    --- In BrewingEquipment@yahoogroups.com, "Reverend R Clark"
                    <clark@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Greetings Bill and ALL!
                    >
                    > Thank You for your cogent reply, your comments are most convincing, I
                    > am more interested than ever in seeing what happens when "the rubber
                    > meets the road" and I actually get a chance to see the SS chiller in
                    > action. I've already considered that because the municipal water
                    > supply here in Florida isn't very chill that I might need to use ice
                    > water in a washtub recirculated by a pump to get the job done.
                    >

                    I have a problem similar to this as I live in oklahoma and it gets
                    hotter than florida in the summer. My technique is simple and very
                    effective.

                    equipment:
                    1 copper immersion chiller
                    1 old 5 gal bucket
                    1 oz SanaStar
                    1 inexpensive sump pump (ace hardware ~$30)
                    2 bags of ice

                    Technique:
                    Attach the garden hose end of your chiller to the sump pump out

                    Put sump pump and immersion chiller in old bucket ( leave cord out)
                    Fill with water to cover chiller
                    add cleaner for ~5 gallons of water

                    10-20 min before end of boil:
                    turn on sump pump and let the water re-circulate in the bucket
                    wipe down all surfaces of the immersion chiller as it will be in
                    direct contact with the wort.

                    End of boil, put hot wort into a clean bucket. Turn off pump. Take
                    immersion chiller out of bucket (it should be very very clean inside
                    and out). Shake vigorously. Put immersion chiller in bucket with hot
                    wort. Put sump pump in old bucket with cleaner solution. Add ice to
                    bucket with cleaner solution. Turn on pump. Stir wort. Cold break to
                    70F in about 10-15 min depending on amount of ice used.

                    When cold break is done. Clean immersion chiller by putting it back in
                    the bucket with the cleaner and ice. SanStar cleaner works at all temps.

                    Basically all you are doing is pumping the cold liquid from the old
                    bucket through the coil to cold break the wort. You can keep adding
                    ice if you need to and the sump cannot get jammed because the ice
                    floats and the sump sits on the bottom of the bucket.

                    Process is simple and effective. I'm a stove topper so you full 5 gal
                    brew guys might need double the ice.
                  • Bill Velek
                    Reverend R Clark wrote: snip ... First, for purposes of moving anything that you will be drinking, including strike water and sparge water, you ought to use a
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 3 9:28 AM
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                      Reverend R Clark wrote:

                      snip

                      > As an aside, I notice that some folks use pumps to move brewing
                      > liquor, sparge water, wort, beer. I imagine that an aquarium pump
                      > would suffice for cool liquid.

                      First, for purposes of moving anything that you will be drinking,
                      including strike water and sparge water, you ought to use a 'mag' pump
                      which doesn't have any direct mechanical link between the motor and the
                      pump and therefore no 'seals' to leak lubricant; I don't know if
                      aquarium pumps are 'mag' pumps or not.

                      Second, I'd imagine that you'd want pretty good volume capacity, and
                      maybe there are aquarium pumps that are big enough, but I'd look around
                      for a 'mag' pump myself. You can find lots of recommendations on this
                      list by going to the homepage 'Message' board and using the search
                      function and type 'mag pump'.

                      Good luck.

                      Bill Velek
                    • jamesryancase
                      Bill, I haven t joined the Hop Growing group as I get all mine for free. I live in Moxee Washington. But I thought you might be interested in this for your Hop
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 11 1:40 PM
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                        Bill,

                        I haven't joined the Hop Growing group as I get all mine for free. I
                        live in Moxee Washington.

                        But I thought you might be interested in this for your Hop Growing
                        group so I am placing it here for you to do what you will with. Sorry
                        for it being off topic for the group, but it is in good intention.

                        Ryan

                        Copied text to follow.

                        Freshops.com
                        2008 Rhizomes are in
                        You are receiving this email because you have placed an order with
                        freshops.com since 2002, thank you for your orders...
                        We weathered a soggy snowy January but February brought good hop
                        rhizome digging weather here in Oregon and Washington. Feel free to
                        look through our fine assortment of hop rhizomes now available at
                        http://freshops.com Please read as much as you can about the various
                        varieties we offer at freshops.com and order on-line if possible. Our
                        secure on-line web store will accept VISA, Mastercard, Paypal, or mail
                        checks as ordering options. Also check out our various other hop
                        rhizome links at freshops.com to see photos and information about
                        planting, spacing, and harvesting, etc. The default shipping/handling
                        method of priority mail will be the fastest and cheapest method of
                        shipping for most orders. If you decide to become a hop grower,
                        please anticipate approximately 10 days for delivery. It is only
                        March so unless you are down south, I suggest you either store your
                        rhizomes in the fridge and watch for mold which can be washed off or
                        pot them in gallon pots indoors as you wait for warmer weather.
                        Freshops is giving you an opportunity to purchase some of the finest
                        30 year old Cascade Crowns at our ebay auction site.
                        Happy Hoppin"...
                        Dave Wills
                        Freshops
                      • Bill Velek
                        ... No problem at all, Ryan; thanks for your attempt to help out. By the way, our Grow-Hops group offers a whole lot more than just obtaining rhizomes. Lots
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 11 2:25 PM
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                          jamesryancase wrote:

                          > I haven't joined the Hop Growing group as I get all mine for free. I
                          > live in Moxee Washington.
                          >
                          > But I thought you might be interested in this for your Hop Growing
                          > group so I am placing it here for you to do what you will with. Sorry
                          > for it being off topic for the group, but it is in good intention.

                          No problem at all, Ryan; thanks for your attempt to help out. By the
                          way, our Grow-Hops group offers a whole lot more than just obtaining
                          rhizomes. Lots of interesting discussions; for example, a few of us
                          have just started to discussion companion planting of herbs that will
                          chase the pests away from your hops. So, unless you have everything
                          mastered, you might pick up an extra pointer or two, ... and if you DO
                          have everything mastered already, we can use your advice. ;-)

                          Cheers.

                          Bill Velek
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