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Re: XB-70 AND F-108 Rapier!!

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  • Christian Bryan
    Anyone here been to Dayton OH to see the Valkyrie? Yup; sat on the main tyres and ate my lunch. :-) This was in 1974, when she was still outside. We stayed
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 1, 2007
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      "Anyone here been to Dayton OH to see
      the Valkyrie?"

      Yup; sat on the main tyres and ate my lunch. :-)

      This was in 1974, when she was still outside. We stayed at a motel
      right across from the museum, and I could'nt sleep that night trying
      to contain my excitement for the next day.

      I kept waking up, making multiple trips to the soda pop ("Pop" here
      in the NW, "Soda" in San Francisco where I grew up) machine, but
      actually I was just rising and shining to gaze across the street at
      the World's only Mach 3 bomber.

      I would LOVE to share photos with the group, but I unfortunately lost
      these in a house fire. I had pictures of my Mom, Dad, & two brothers
      in front of, and underneath her. None with me, 'cause I was taking
      the pictures. :)

      The highlights for me were the XB-70, B-58, B-36, and touching the X-
      3, and #2 X-15 (The fastest of the three) is something I'll never
      forget.

      I almost threw a tantrum when I could'nt find the YB-52 though. I
      went up to the information desk, asked the guy (who reminded me of
      Gerome "Curly" Howard), and asked him where my B-52 was!!

      I mean, how do you hide a Stratofortress??

      We chopped it up!!! He said very curtly.

      Painful for my 13 year old ears.

      A nice buffer was later that evening, a KC-135A was shooting touch n'
      go's at Patterson field, and I was very enjoyably basking in the
      screech & roar. :-)

      It was the first time I ever saw "Lightning bugs" (Fireflies") as
      well. I always refer to the walk I took that night as the "Skeeter &
      Stratotanker" evening.

      I still have not made it to the Smithsonian, but I have been to
      pretty much every museum that has a B-52.

      Needless to say, XB-70A, A/V #1 made the whole trip for me! :-)

      Christian







      tdJo

      ^twoiP,
      rDayton









      --- In Box-Art@yahoogroups.com, "MGC" <max_g_cunningham@...> wrote:
      >
      > Anyone here been to Dayton OH to see
      > the Valkyrie ?
      > I did, back when i was still outside, which afforded
      > excellent conditions to stand back far enough to take
      > good wide angle photographs.
      >
      > A few years ago I picked up the re-issued B-58 hustler kit,
      > I check to see if I still have the carton.
      >
      > MC
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LWJF/
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CombatAircraft/
      >
      > --- In Box-Art@yahoogroups.com, "John P. Braungart" <braungart@>
      wrote:
      > > The wings and tail are developed from
      > > the P-51.
      > >
      >
    • C. Bibbee
      Christian & Co; Being from Lancaster, OH, (about 70 mi from Dayton), I ve been there several times, usually with my local model club, which I was secretary of
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 1, 2007
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        Christian & Co;

         Being from Lancaster, OH, (about 70 mi from Dayton), I've been there several times, usually with my local model club, which I was secretary of for most of its existence. (I've now handed that duty off to a younger member with more legible handwriting.) So I've seen the Valkyrie both outside the Museum and inside it.

         Trivia fact; the reason the XB-70 was never produced in quantity had nothing to do with President Kennedy's policies, as popularly believed. It was the fuel. In the early 1950s, Olin Mathieson (working to an Air Force contract) and Callery Chemical (doing the same for  Navy BuAer) developed a series of borane/hydrocarbon based fuels, known as "HEF" or "Zip Fuels" which had a higher heat of formation than straight hydrocarbon fuels like the JP series. Based on work GE had done right after WWII (Project Hermes) to develop high-energy liquid rocket propellants, the borane-based fuels were supposed to generate the necessary extra power to allow the Valkyrie to sustain cruise at Mach 3+. In fact, the engines in the Valkyrie were designed around those very fuels.

        But when they actually tested them in ground runs in a test cell, they found a little problem. Namely, that the boranes did not burn to completion as OM and Callery had hypothesized. Instead, a good bit of the borane content was instead exhausted as elemental boron or, worse, boron trioxide- which, as it cooled below the vapor phase (at about 800K IIRC) became a glassy, viscous "gunk" that tended to stick tenaciously to solid objects. Like the turbine blades of the exhaust impeller that drove the front-end compressor fans. And since there was only a few thousandths of an inch clearance between those impeller blades, and they were rotating at several tens of thousands of RPM, and the BeO3 quickly filled up the space in-between.......

         Can you say "catastrophic engine self-disassembly"?

        While the boranes later proved to be decent LPR fuels (usually burned with  hydrazine) used experimentally until superseded by Chlorine Pentafluoride (ClF5) as the high-energy fuel everybody wanted, there was just no way to safely use them in a jet engine. And without them, even running on JP-7 like the SR-71, there was just no way to get the XB-70 up to its designed speed and keep it there for any length of time.

         And that's what really cancelled the "B-70", folks. They made the classic error of doing their design work BEFORE doing their basic research.

         On the plus side, all the borane work done as part of the "Zip" program did have a long-term bonus. The "boron-graphite composites" used in everything from fighter aircraft to Formula 1 race cars and even some buildings today, all had their origins in the "HEF" and "Zip" programs. They might not have made terrific jet fuels- but they do make some Sierra Hotel jet planes.

        (Above historical trivia courtesy of;

         Clark, Dr. John D. IGNITION!; An Informal History Of Liquid Rocket Propellants. Rutgers University Press, 1972. ISBN 0-8135-0725-1. Chapter 10, "Exotics".)

                                                                                                   Sincerely,
                                                                                                   Carl B.

        Christian Bryan <craviola880@...> wrote:

        "Anyone here been to Dayton OH to see
        the Valkyrie?"

        Yup; sat on the main tyres and ate my lunch. :-)

        This was in 1974, when she was still outside. We stayed at a motel
        right across from the museum, and I could'nt sleep that night trying
        to contain my excitement for the next day.

        I kept waking up, making multiple trips to the soda pop ("Pop" here
        in the NW, "Soda" in San Francisco where I grew up) machine, but
        actually I was just rising and shining to gaze across the street at
        the World's only Mach 3 bomber.

        I would LOVE to share photos with the group, but I unfortunately lost
        these in a house fire. I had pictures of my Mom, Dad, & two brothers
        in front of, and underneath her. None with me, 'cause I was taking
        the pictures. :)

        The highlights for me were the XB-70, B-58, B-36, and touching the X-
        3, and #2 X-15 (The fastest of the three) is something I'll never
        forget.

        I almost threw a tantrum when I could'nt find the YB-52 though. I
        went up to the information desk, asked the guy (who reminded me of
        Gerome "Curly" Howard), and asked him where my B-52 was!!

        I mean, how do you hide a Stratofortress? ?

        We chopped it up!!! He said very curtly.

        Painful for my 13 year old ears.

        A nice buffer was later that evening, a KC-135A was shooting touch n'
        go's at Patterson field, and I was very enjoyably basking in the
        screech & roar. :-)

        It was the first time I ever saw "Lightning bugs" (Fireflies") as
        well. I always refer to the walk I took that night as the "Skeeter &
        Stratotanker" evening.

        I still have not made it to the Smithsonian, but I have been to
        pretty much every museum that has a B-52.

        Needless to say, XB-70A, A/V #1 made the whole trip for me! :-)

        Christian

        tdJo

        ^twoiP,
        rDayton

        --- In Box-Art@yahoogroups .com, "MGC" <max_g_cunningham@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > Anyone here been to Dayton OH to see
        > the Valkyrie ?
        > I did, back when i was still outside, which afforded
        > excellent conditions to stand back far enough to take
        > good wide angle photographs.
        >
        > A few years ago I picked up the re-issued B-58 hustler kit,
        > I check to see if I still have the carton.
        >
        > MC
        > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/LWJF/
        > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/CombatAirc raft/
        >
        > --- In Box-Art@yahoogroups .com, "John P. Braungart" <braungart@>
        wrote:
        > > The wings and tail are developed from
        > > the P-51.
        > >
        >




      • MGC
        ... Kewl. When I was there they had added the streak eagle right next to it. At that time they had also added a YF-12 in the annex. Unfortunately at that time
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 1, 2007
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          --- In Box-Art@yahoogroups.com, "Christian Bryan" <craviola880@...>
          wrote:
          > Yup; sat on the main tyres and ate my lunch. :-)
          >
          > This was in 1974, when she was still outside.

          Kewl.

          When I was there they had added the streak eagle right next to it.
          At that time they had also added a YF-12 in the annex.
          Unfortunately at that time the B-58 was not on display, being restored.
          MC
        • Christian Bryan
          BTW Max; welcome aboard! :-) I see that you are new with us here. BE SURE to check out our website for the REAL display: http://theboxartden.com Thanks for
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 1, 2007
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            BTW Max; welcome aboard! :-)

            I see that you are new with us here. BE SURE to check out our website
            for the REAL display:

            http://theboxartden.com

            Thanks for mentioning the YF-12; that wasn't there yet when I was there
            in '74!

            Chris



            --- In Box-Art@yahoogroups.com, "MGC" <max_g_cunningham@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In Box-Art@yahoogroups.com, "Christian Bryan" <craviola880@>
            > wrote:
            > > Yup; sat on the main tyres and ate my lunch. :-)
            > >
            > > This was in 1974, when she was still outside.
            >
            > Kewl.
            >
            > When I was there they had added the streak eagle right next to it.
            > At that time they had also added a YF-12 in the annex.
            > Unfortunately at that time the B-58 was not on display, being
            restored.
            > MC
            >
          • Jean Aker
            I put up a quick and dirty picture page of some of the pics I took at Wright Pat in the mid-1970s. The B-58 and B-70 were there outside. I also added a few
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 1, 2007
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              I put up a quick and dirty picture page of some of the pics I took at
              Wright Pat in the mid-1970s.
              The B-58 and B-70 were there outside.
              I also added a few special ones.

              http://www.biker.net/aircraft/airplane_pics.htm

              Jean
            • Christian Bryan
              That s what I m talkin about! That head on shot of the B-58; I remember taking one standing in the exact same spot. :-) I think Allen is right... ...Nuthin
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 1, 2007
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                That's what I'm talkin' about! That head on shot of the B-58; I
                remember taking one standing in the exact same spot. :-)

                I think Allen is right...

                ...Nuthin' cooler than a B-70! :-)

                Chris



                mebr--- In Box-Art@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Aker" <jfa23@...> wrote:
                >
                > I put up a quick and dirty picture page of some of the pics I took at
                > Wright Pat in the mid-1970s.
                > The B-58 and B-70 were there outside.
                > I also added a few special ones.
                >
                > http://www.biker.net/aircraft/airplane_pics.htm
                >
                > Jean
                >
              • Aerospace Systems Analysis
                Whoa....wait just a minute! A B-36 or B-58 is at least twice as cool! ;^) Steve B. ... From: Christian Bryan To:
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 1, 2007
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                  Whoa....wait just a minute! A B-36 or B-58 is at least twice as cool!  ;^)
                   
                  Steve B.
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Christian Bryan" <craviola880@...>
                  Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 4:00 PM
                  Subject: [Box-Art] Re: XB-70 & B-58

                  > That's what I'm talkin' about! That head on shot of the B-58; I
                  > remember taking one standing in the exact same spot. :-)
                  >
                  > I think Allen is right...
                  >
                  > ...Nuthin' cooler than a
                  B-70! :-)
                  >
                  > Chris
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > mebr--- In
                  Box-Art@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Aker" <jfa23@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> I put up a quick and dirty
                  picture page of some of the pics I took at
                  >> Wright Pat in the
                  mid-1970s. 
                  >> The B-58 and B-70 were there outside.
                  >>
                  I also added a few special ones.
                  >>
                  >>
                  href="http://www.biker.net/aircraft/airplane_pics.htm">http://www.biker.net/aircraft/airplane_pics.htm
                  >>
                  >> Jean
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                • Christian Bryan
                  Hard to decide, isn t it! :-) Chris ... cool! ;^) ... took at
                  Message 8 of 29 , Dec 1, 2007
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                    Hard to decide, isn't it! :-) Chris



                    --- In Box-Art@yahoogroups.com, "Aerospace Systems Analysis"
                    <aerospacesystems@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Whoa....wait just a minute! A B-36 or B-58 is at least twice as
                    cool! ;^)
                    >
                    > Steve B.
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Christian Bryan" <craviola880@...>
                    > To: <Box-Art@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 4:00 PM
                    > Subject: [Box-Art] Re: XB-70 & B-58
                    >
                    >
                    > > That's what I'm talkin' about! That head on shot of the B-58; I
                    > > remember taking one standing in the exact same spot. :-)
                    > >
                    > > I think Allen is right...
                    > >
                    > > ...Nuthin' cooler than a B-70! :-)
                    > >
                    > > Chris
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > mebr--- In Box-Art@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Aker" <jfa23@> wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >> I put up a quick and dirty picture page of some of the pics I
                    took at
                    > >> Wright Pat in the mid-1970s.
                    > >> The B-58 and B-70 were there outside.
                    > >> I also added a few special ones.
                    > >>
                    > >> http://www.biker.net/aircraft/airplane_pics.htm
                    > >>
                    > >> Jean
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • MGC
                    ... That s good stuff, nonone will be able to capture those perspectives anymore on the XB-70 since it moved indoors. I have some similar 35mm, but not
                    Message 9 of 29 , Dec 1, 2007
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                      --- In Box-Art@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Aker" <jfa23@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I put up a quick and dirty picture page of some of the pics I took at
                      > Wright Pat in the mid-1970s.

                      That's good stuff, nonone will be able to capture those perspectives
                      anymore on the XB-70 since it moved indoors.

                      I have some similar 35mm, but not scanned into digital format.

                      For sheer rakeish lines, simply reeking of speed,
                      amoung larger AC /non-fighters the B-58, XB-70 and
                      A-11/12 SR-71 through YF-12 Blackbirds all take the cake.

                      As previously noted, it's a toss up, I'd take one or another
                      on any given day, depending on what side of the bed,,,,..

                      The TSR-2 was an intersting looking bird too, you can tell
                      by the fineness ratio it was no turn'n burner though,
                      just straight line, low and fast as stink.

                      The Aussies still luv thier F-111s, (gotta luv those crazy buggers)
                      but if things had been just a little different, they might still be
                      flying TSR-2.


                      Max.
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CombatAircraft/
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LWJF/
                    • Ken Palmer
                      My questions are: 1. How the heck does the pilot get in the cockpit, by helicopter? 2. What the heck were they smoking when they designed that thing? It
                      Message 10 of 29 , Dec 1, 2007
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                        My questions are:

                        1. How the heck does the pilot get in the cockpit, by
                        helicopter?

                        2. What the heck were they smoking when they designed
                        that thing? It certainly has to be among the most
                        unique designs ever!

                        KCP

                        P.S. Sorry, Mrs. Sheridan, I know one isn't supposed
                        to modify the word "unique"....

                        --- Christian Bryan <craviola880@...> wrote:

                        > That's what I'm talkin' about! That head on shot of
                        > the B-58; I
                        > remember taking one standing in the exact same spot.
                        > :-)
                        >
                        > I think Allen is right...
                        >
                        > ...Nuthin' cooler than a B-70! :-)
                        >
                        > Chris
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > mebr--- In Box-Art@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Aker"
                        > <jfa23@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I put up a quick and dirty picture page of some of
                        > the pics I took at
                        > > Wright Pat in the mid-1970s.
                        > > The B-58 and B-70 were there outside.
                        > > I also added a few special ones.
                        > >
                        > > http://www.biker.net/aircraft/airplane_pics.htm
                        > >
                        > > Jean
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • MGC
                        ... It was a railed large custom built staircase. SR-71 had similar, much smaller, seen it, videotaped pilot egress.
                        Message 11 of 29 , Dec 1, 2007
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                          --- In Box-Art@yahoogroups.com, Ken Palmer <kendall_c_p2@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > My questions are:
                          >
                          > 1. How the heck does the pilot get in the cockpit, by
                          > helicopter?
                          >
                          It was a railed large custom built staircase.
                          SR-71 had similar, much smaller, seen it, videotaped pilot egress.
                          http://www.suchoj.com/andere/XB-70/images/XB-70_09.jpg


                          > 2. What the heck were they smoking when they designed
                          > that thing? It certainly has to be among the most
                          > unique designs ever!

                          It's quite astonishing, the planform is called a double delta,
                          with canards, including twin tails and a gigantic propulsion
                          system, consisting of 6 30,000 lbs thrust class bafterburing
                          turbojets, rated for sustained mach 3 speeds and thermodynamic loads
                          at over 70,000ft asl. The wing tips also folded downwards upto 90
                          degrees, and were designed to "trap" the supersonic shockwave,
                          and increase lift by a worthwhile percentage.

                          Like nothing seen before, or since.

                          Only the lockheed mach 3 blackbird family surpassed it in imagination
                          and performance, and by a considerable factor.

                          MC
                          rr
                        • RNelson898@aol.com
                          In a message dated 12/1/2007 8:27:52 P.M. Central Standard Time, ... RE the B-70, one of the best stories I ve heard about was during the first taxi tests.
                          Message 12 of 29 , Dec 1, 2007
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                            In a message dated 12/1/2007 8:27:52 P.M. Central Standard Time, max_g_cunningham@... writes:

                            > 2.  What the heck were they smoking when they designed
                            > that thing?  It certainly has to be among the most
                            > unique designs ever!
                            RE the B-70, one of the best stories I've heard about was during the first taxi tests.  They started down a taxiway and started asking the escort what the heck was wrong.  The pilots were getting shaken up by 1 foot oscillations and they figured there was a major malfunction with the nose gear.  Turned out it was the unevenness of the concrete and it was amplified by the cockpit being 70' in front of the nose gear.
                             
                            Rick




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                          • John P. Braungart
                            ... Or by now, maybe a TSR-3? That aircraft is from (as far as technology is concerned) a long time ago. I know that the B-52 is still front- line, but I think
                            Message 13 of 29 , Dec 2, 2007
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                              --- In Box-Art@yahoogroups.com, "MGC" <max_g_cunningham@...> wrote:

                              > The Aussies still luv their F-111s, (gotta luv those crazy buggers)
                              > but if things had been just a little different, they might still be
                              > flying TSR-2.

                              Or by now, maybe a TSR-3? That aircraft is from (as far as technology
                              is concerned) a long time ago. I know that the B-52 is still front-
                              line, but I think that happened between economical upgrades and the
                              lack of a feasable replacement.
                            • Jim Galloway
                              If your question was about the70/58, others have answered already. If it s about the XC-120, I ve googled it and checked all the references that came up. There
                              Message 14 of 29 , Dec 2, 2007
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                                If your question was about the70/58, others have answered already. If it’s about the XC-120, I’ve googled it and checked all the references that came up. There are a couple of photos but I can find nothing about the interior. My guess would be a pull down stairway but nothing to back that up.   Jim galloway

                                 


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