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Re: [BoundaryPoint] DELU condo research

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  • Brendan Whyte
    IF it DOES come from the 1815 Vienna treaty, remember that Moresnet did too, because of the inability to reach any other compromise between Neth and Prussia.
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 23, 2001
      IF it DOES come from the 1815 Vienna treaty, remember that Moresnet did too,
      because of the inability to reach any other compromise between Neth and
      Prussia. Thus a land condominium, effectively neutral, to compliment the
      riverine one(s).

      BW


      >From: Mats Hessman <blofeld_es@...>
      >Reply-To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
      >To: "'BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com'" <BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com>
      >Subject: [BoundaryPoint] DELU condo research
      >Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:21:25 +0200
      >
      >Colleagues,
      >
      >Based on the "Grenzvermessung Deutschland-Luxemburg..." it seems
      >possible to throw forward the following postulates:
      >
      >The delu condominuim seems to have it's origin in the Main Document of
      >the Treaty of Vienna following the Congress of Vienna 1815, which states
      >that some (particularly wet) bordes between Pussia and the Netherlands
      >shall
      >be equally owned by the two states. This goes for the current wet border
      >(Mosel-Sauer-Our), and for at least one unnamed road, and maybe for
      >the Ribbach as well.
      >
      >The Main Document was a broad treaty, stating that the specifics should
      >be sorted out by several future comissions-to-be-formed.
      >
      >The Prussian-Netherlands Border Commission draws on the Treaty of
      >Vienna, and states in the Treaty of Aachen 1816 at least the following:
      >
      >- Mosel, Sauer and Our are jointly and equally owned by Prussia and
      >the Netherlands.
      >
      >- Islands within these waters belong to either of the states, and are thus
      >not condominial.
      >
      >- The community of Vianden shall not be divided, hence the dry border
      >east of the community.
      >
      >Then there is the Protocol of Emmerich of 1816 (?, Peter?). This is a
      >riddle,
      >because it does not mention the condominium situation at all. The
      >protocol mainly concerns the separation of the islands of Mosel-Sauer-Our,
      >and specifically states that the border between the states follows the
      >main channel of the waters.
      >
      >How to interpret this contradiction?
      >
      >Some help in interpreting this comes from the fact that when the Reich
      >approached Luxemburg in the late thirties on a dissolvement of the
      >condominium,
      >Luxemburg answered that it was not sure that this was a bilateral question,
      >since possibly all the parties of the Treaty of Vienna would have to be
      >consulted. This suggest, I think, that at least the Treaty of Vienna, and
      >possibly the Treaty of Aachen supersedes the Protocol of Emmerich,
      >at least in the minds of the Luxemburgers. Then the second World War
      >intervened before an agreement could be reached.
      >
      >In 1980 to 1984 the border was measured anew, and "refreshed". The
      >following seems to be true:
      >
      >- There are two contigious parts of the condominium; north of Vianden and
      >south of Vianden.
      >
      >- The "ends" of the condominia (the "trilines") are straight lines.
      >
      >- The condominium is limited by the line where land and water meet at
      >normal water height (Mittelwasserstand).
      >
      >- There are dry parts of the condominium; several dams (large and tiny),
      >locks, power plants, bridges, bridge fundaments and other installations.
      >
      >- The condominium extends below and above ground, in the same way
      >as ordinary borders do.
      >
      >- The islands are now part of the condominium. This is based on
      >praticality. Several of the islands mentioned in the Protocol of Emmerich
      >exist no more, and others have formed.
      >
      >- The borders are amply marked. There are primary (52 pairs), secondary
      >and tertiary border stones. At some bridges there are brass plates, at
      >others tin plates as shown in Wolfgang's excellent document. Where the
      >border traverses dry ground, such as at dams and locks and some bridges,
      >there are small cast iron circular plates that Peter has shown us in
      >previous
      >messages. There is also a handful of metal bolts at selected places.
      >
      >Mats


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    • Jesper & Nicolette Nielsen
      Thanks alot maps I am starting to feel very well equipted for delu for GCEBE. But we still are out of a 1:10000 map of the binational tripoints S of Vianden.
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 23, 2001
        Thanks alot maps
         
        I am starting to feel very well equipted for delu for GCEBE.
         
        But we still are out of a 1:10000 map of the binational tripoints S of Vianden.
         
        Jesper
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 9:21 PM
        Subject: [BoundaryPoint] DELU condo research

        Colleagues,

        Based on the "Grenzvermessung Deutschland-Luxemburg..." it seems
        possible to throw forward the following postulates:

        The delu condominuim seems to have it's origin in the Main Document of
        the Treaty of Vienna following the Congress of Vienna 1815, which states
        that some (particularly wet) bordes between Pussia and the Netherlands shall
        be equally owned by the two states. This goes for the current wet border
        (Mosel-Sauer-Our), and for at least one unnamed road, and maybe for
        the Ribbach as well.

        The Main Document was a broad treaty, stating that the specifics should
        be sorted out by several future comissions-to-be-formed.

        The Prussian-Netherlands Border Commission draws on the Treaty of
        Vienna, and states in the Treaty of Aachen 1816 at least the following:

        - Mosel, Sauer and Our are jointly and equally owned by Prussia and
        the Netherlands.

        - Islands within these waters belong to either of the states, and are thus
        not condominial.

        - The community of Vianden shall not be divided, hence the dry border
        east of the community.

        Then there is the Protocol of Emmerich of 1816 (?, Peter?). This is a
        riddle,
        because it does not mention the condominium situation at all. The
        protocol mainly concerns the separation of the islands of Mosel-Sauer-Our,
        and specifically states that the border between the states follows the
        main channel of the waters.

        How to interpret this contradiction?

        Some help in interpreting this comes from the fact that when the Reich
        approached Luxemburg in the late thirties on a dissolvement of the
        condominium,
        Luxemburg answered that it was not sure that this was a bilateral question,
        since possibly all the parties of the Treaty of Vienna would have to be
        consulted. This suggest, I think, that at least the Treaty of Vienna, and
        possibly the Treaty of Aachen supersedes the Protocol of Emmerich,
        at least in the minds of the Luxemburgers. Then the second World War
        intervened before an agreement could be reached.

        In 1980 to 1984 the border was measured anew, and "refreshed". The
        following seems to be true:

        - There are two contigious parts of the condominium; north of Vianden and
        south of Vianden.

        - The "ends" of the condominia (the "trilines") are straight lines.

        - The condominium is limited by the line where land and water meet at
        normal water height (Mittelwasserstand).

        - There are dry parts of the condominium; several dams (large and tiny),
        locks, power plants, bridges, bridge fundaments and other installations.

        - The condominium extends below and above ground, in the same way
        as ordinary borders do.

        - The islands are now part of the condominium. This is based on
        praticality. Several of the islands mentioned in the Protocol of Emmerich
        exist no more, and others have formed.

        - The borders are amply marked. There are primary (52 pairs), secondary
        and tertiary border stones. At some bridges there are brass plates, at
        others tin plates as shown in Wolfgang's excellent document. Where the
        border traverses dry ground, such as at dams and locks and some bridges,
        there are small cast iron circular plates that Peter has shown us in
        previous
        messages. There is also a handful of metal bolts at selected places.

        Mats

        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      • Jesper & Nicolette Nielsen
        Sorry Mats I meant Thanks alot Mats It s just that I am a mapaholic. Jesper ... From: Jesper & Nicolette Nielsen To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com Sent:
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 23, 2001
          Sorry Mats
           
          I meant
           
          Thanks alot Mats
           
          It's just that I am a mapaholic.
           
          Jesper
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 7:59 AM
          Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] DELU condo research

          Thanks alot maps
           
          I am starting to feel very well equipted for delu for GCEBE.
           
          But we still are out of a 1:10000 map of the binational tripoints S of Vianden.
           
          Jesper
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 9:21 PM
          Subject: [BoundaryPoint] DELU condo research

          Colleagues,

          Based on the "Grenzvermessung Deutschland-Luxemburg..." it seems
          possible to throw forward the following postulates:

          The delu condominuim seems to have it's origin in the Main Document of
          the Treaty of Vienna following the Congress of Vienna 1815, which states
          that some (particularly wet) bordes between Pussia and the Netherlands shall
          be equally owned by the two states. This goes for the current wet border
          (Mosel-Sauer-Our), and for at least one unnamed road, and maybe for
          the Ribbach as well.

          The Main Document was a broad treaty, stating that the specifics should
          be sorted out by several future comissions-to-be-formed.

          The Prussian-Netherlands Border Commission draws on the Treaty of
          Vienna, and states in the Treaty of Aachen 1816 at least the following:

          - Mosel, Sauer and Our are jointly and equally owned by Prussia and
          the Netherlands.

          - Islands within these waters belong to either of the states, and are thus
          not condominial.

          - The community of Vianden shall not be divided, hence the dry border
          east of the community.

          Then there is the Protocol of Emmerich of 1816 (?, Peter?). This is a
          riddle,
          because it does not mention the condominium situation at all. The
          protocol mainly concerns the separation of the islands of Mosel-Sauer-Our,
          and specifically states that the border between the states follows the
          main channel of the waters.

          How to interpret this contradiction?

          Some help in interpreting this comes from the fact that when the Reich
          approached Luxemburg in the late thirties on a dissolvement of the
          condominium,
          Luxemburg answered that it was not sure that this was a bilateral question,
          since possibly all the parties of the Treaty of Vienna would have to be
          consulted. This suggest, I think, that at least the Treaty of Vienna, and
          possibly the Treaty of Aachen supersedes the Protocol of Emmerich,
          at least in the minds of the Luxemburgers. Then the second World War
          intervened before an agreement could be reached.

          In 1980 to 1984 the border was measured anew, and "refreshed". The
          following seems to be true:

          - There are two contigious parts of the condominium; north of Vianden and
          south of Vianden.

          - The "ends" of the condominia (the "trilines") are straight lines.

          - The condominium is limited by the line where land and water meet at
          normal water height (Mittelwasserstand).

          - There are dry parts of the condominium; several dams (large and tiny),
          locks, power plants, bridges, bridge fundaments and other installations.

          - The condominium extends below and above ground, in the same way
          as ordinary borders do.

          - The islands are now part of the condominium. This is based on
          praticality. Several of the islands mentioned in the Protocol of Emmerich
          exist no more, and others have formed.

          - The borders are amply marked. There are primary (52 pairs), secondary
          and tertiary border stones. At some bridges there are brass plates, at
          others tin plates as shown in Wolfgang's excellent document. Where the
          border traverses dry ground, such as at dams and locks and some bridges,
          there are small cast iron circular plates that Peter has shown us in
          previous
          messages. There is also a handful of metal bolts at selected places.

          Mats

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        • Peter Smaardijk
          Thanks Mats. I find your postulates very convincing. Until we find out something else, of course. What strikes me is your guess that at one time a wet
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 24, 2001
            Thanks Mats. I find your postulates very convincing. Until we find
            out something else, of course.

            What strikes me is your guess that at one time a wet condominium
            existed (just as it exists right now), but that the islands were
            alotted to one of the two states. Which is exactly the opposite of my
            guess of the situation at Ile de la Conference, where the river is
            divided, but the island is a condominium.

            Do you base your assumption that the islands are nowadays part of the
            condominium on the literature in your possession? It would indeed be
            much more practical.

            By the way: Everything I know about the Emmerich protocols is from
            Wolfgang's documents.

            And I know of at least one road on the border of the Netherlands and
            Germany, that has the name "Neutral Road". But I suspect this has
            nothing to do with a possible dry condominium there. Brendan's guess
            that the dry condo might be Moresnet stands a good chance of being
            right.

            Peter S.

            --- In BoundaryPoint@y..., Mats Hessman <blofeld_es@y...> wrote:
            > Colleagues,
            >
            > Based on the "Grenzvermessung Deutschland-Luxemburg..." it seems
            > possible to throw forward the following postulates:
            >
            > The delu condominuim seems to have it's origin in the Main Document
            of
            > the Treaty of Vienna following the Congress of Vienna 1815, which
            states
            > that some (particularly wet) bordes between Pussia and the
            Netherlands shall
            > be equally owned by the two states. This goes for the current wet
            border
            > (Mosel-Sauer-Our), and for at least one unnamed road, and maybe for
            > the Ribbach as well.
            >
            > The Main Document was a broad treaty, stating that the specifics
            should
            > be sorted out by several future comissions-to-be-formed.
            >
            > The Prussian-Netherlands Border Commission draws on the Treaty of
            > Vienna, and states in the Treaty of Aachen 1816 at least the
            following:
            >
            > - Mosel, Sauer and Our are jointly and equally owned by Prussia and
            > the Netherlands.
            >
            > - Islands within these waters belong to either of the states, and
            are thus
            > not condominial.
            >
            > - The community of Vianden shall not be divided, hence the dry
            border
            > east of the community.
            >
            > Then there is the Protocol of Emmerich of 1816 (?, Peter?). This is
            a
            > riddle,
            > because it does not mention the condominium situation at all. The
            > protocol mainly concerns the separation of the islands of Mosel-
            Sauer-Our,
            > and specifically states that the border between the states follows
            the
            > main channel of the waters.
            >
            > How to interpret this contradiction?
            >
            > Some help in interpreting this comes from the fact that when the
            Reich
            > approached Luxemburg in the late thirties on a dissolvement of the
            > condominium,
            > Luxemburg answered that it was not sure that this was a bilateral
            question,
            > since possibly all the parties of the Treaty of Vienna would have
            to be
            > consulted. This suggest, I think, that at least the Treaty of
            Vienna, and
            > possibly the Treaty of Aachen supersedes the Protocol of Emmerich,
            > at least in the minds of the Luxemburgers. Then the second World War
            > intervened before an agreement could be reached.
            >
            > In 1980 to 1984 the border was measured anew, and "refreshed". The
            > following seems to be true:
            >
            > - There are two contigious parts of the condominium; north of
            Vianden and
            > south of Vianden.
            >
            > - The "ends" of the condominia (the "trilines") are straight lines.
            >
            > - The condominium is limited by the line where land and water meet
            at
            > normal water height (Mittelwasserstand).
            >
            > - There are dry parts of the condominium; several dams (large and
            tiny),
            > locks, power plants, bridges, bridge fundaments and other
            installations.
            >
            > - The condominium extends below and above ground, in the same way
            > as ordinary borders do.
            >
            > - The islands are now part of the condominium. This is based on
            > praticality. Several of the islands mentioned in the Protocol of
            Emmerich
            > exist no more, and others have formed.
            >
            > - The borders are amply marked. There are primary (52 pairs),
            secondary
            > and tertiary border stones. At some bridges there are brass plates,
            at
            > others tin plates as shown in Wolfgang's excellent document. Where
            the
            > border traverses dry ground, such as at dams and locks and some
            bridges,
            > there are small cast iron circular plates that Peter has shown us in
            > previous
            > messages. There is also a handful of metal bolts at selected places.
            >
            > Mats
          • Mats Hessman
            The Grenzvermessung Deutschland-Luxemburg is a truly remarkble book. (It even has a large friendly map printed on the cover :). Here is what is has to say on
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 25, 2001
              The "Grenzvermessung Deutschland-Luxemburg" is a truly
              remarkble book. (It even has a large friendly map printed on
              the cover :). Here is what is has to say on some specific
              points:

              Reference to other condominia
              --
              A note to the concept of a condominium goes as follows:
              "Zur Frage der Gebietshoheit an gemeinschaftlichen Grenzflüssen
              finden sich in der einschlägigen Literatur zwei Parallellfälle:
              a) Huber, Max: Ein Beitrag zur Lehre von der Gebietshohiet an
              Grenzflüssen. In: Zeitschrift für Völkerrecht und
              Bundesstaatsrecht I. Bd. Breslau 1907 S. 29-58 und 159-217.
              b) Plössl, H: Dokumentation über die deutsch-österreischische
              Staatsgrenze. Bayrisches Landesvermessungsamt
              (Herausg.) München 1977/1980, Seite 38."

              This rises the question on a possible condominium along
              the German-Austrian border, which may very well be the one
              that Brendan has commented on.

              Islands in the rivers
              --
              The book says a lot about the islands. To sum it up: the
              islands of 1816 were divided by the states according to
              the Protocol of Emmerich. After 1816 several islands have
              disappeared, and others have formed.

              The book: "Von den 15 Inseln in Our und Sauer sind also
              neun Inseln neu entstanden, bei zweien ist es zweifelhaft
              ob sie alt oder neu sind."

              "Wie sollten die neuen Inseln zugeordnet werden? Sollten Sie -
              wie 1816 - über das gemeinschaftliche Hoheitsgebiet hinweg in
              das Hoheitsgebiet des einen oder des anderen Staates
              einbezogen werden, oder waren Sie Teil des gemeinschaftlichen
              Hoheitsgebietes?"

              "Die Inseln liegen im gemeinschaftlichen Hoheitsgebiet. Ihre
              Existenz ist mit der Existenz des Flusses untrennbar verbunden.
              Inseln teilen überlicherweise das rechtliche Schicksal des Flusses.
              Ist der Fluss ein gemeinschafticher, müssen es auch seine
              Inseln sein."

              "Sie [i.e. the islands] sind Teil des gemeinschaflichen Hoheitsgebietes."

              "Diejenigen Inseln, die sich seit 1816 möglicherweise erhalten
              haben, können rechtlich nicht anders behandelt werden als Inseln
              die sich neu gebildet haben."

              This is a home-made short translation:

              Nine of the 15 islands in Our and Sauer are new, and another two
              may be new.

              Should these new islands be divided between the states, or should
              they be regarded as part of the condominium?

              The islands are situated in the jointly owned territory. Their existence
              is undividedly coupled with the existence of the river. If the river
              is a condominium, then the islands must belong to that condominium.

              The islands that may have existed all the way since 1816 could
              juridically not be treated different from the newly formed islands.

              Collectors of border markings
              --
              Anyone of you who plan to visit the border area in question, should
              be aware that there are at least six interesting types of border
              markings. This has been previoulsy reported by Wolfgang, this
              is just a reminder that a visit to the condominium is not complete
              if you do not return with photographs of all kinds of markings.

              1. Border stones, some more interesting than others of course.
              2. Beautiful brass plates at some bridges.
              3. Colorful, not less beautiful, tin plates at other bridges.
              4. Circular, cast iron plates where the border crosses dry land
              at bridge heads, locks, etc.
              5. Metal bolts. These seem to be a lot more precious. There are
              only seven in total; six of them on a cliff north of Vianden, the
              seventh is in the road at Roth.
              6. Wallmarkings. These seem to be present only at the pier
              at defrlu.

              Mats
            • Peter Hering
              Thanks Mats, for your most interesting and breathtaking remarks on the condo areas... of course, mate, we wouldn t dare coming home without having taken a
              Message 6 of 8 , Jul 25, 2001
                >
                Thanks Mats, for your most interesting and
                breathtaking remarks on the condo areas...
                of course, mate, we wouldn't dare coming
                home without having taken a lottttttt of pix!
                Regards - and : vi ses i CPH...!?
                Peter H.
                 
                -------Original Message-------
                 
                Date: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 14:59:03
                Subject: RE: [BoundaryPoint] Re: DELU condo research
                 
                The "Grenzvermessung Deutschland-Luxemburg" is a truly
                remarkble book. (It even has a large friendly map printed on
                the cover :). Here is what is has to say on some specific
                points:

                Reference to other condominia
                --
                A note to the concept of a condominium goes as follows:
                "Zur Frage der Gebietshoheit an gemeinschaftlichen Grenzflüssen
                finden sich in der einschlägigen Literatur zwei Parallellfälle:
                a) Huber, Max: Ein Beitrag zur Lehre von der Gebietshohiet an
                Grenzflüssen. In: Zeitschrift für Völkerrecht und
                Bundesstaatsrecht I. Bd. Breslau 1907 S. 29-58 und 159-217.
                b) Plössl, H: Dokumentation über die deutsch-österreischische
                Staatsgrenze. Bayrisches Landesvermessungsamt
                (Herausg.) München 1977/1980, Seite 38."

                This rises the question on a possible condominium along
                the German-Austrian border, which may very well be the one
                that Brendan has commented on.

                Islands in the rivers
                --
                The book says a lot about the islands. To sum it up: the
                islands of 1816 were divided by the states according to
                the Protocol of Emmerich. After 1816 several islands have
                disappeared, and others have formed.

                The book: "Von den 15 Inseln in Our und Sauer sind also
                neun Inseln neu entstanden, bei zweien ist es zweifelhaft
                ob sie alt oder neu sind."

                "Wie sollten die neuen Inseln zugeordnet werden? Sollten Sie -
                wie 1816 - über das gemeinschaftliche Hoheitsgebiet hinweg in
                das Hoheitsgebiet des einen oder des anderen Staates
                einbezogen werden, oder waren Sie Teil des gemeinschaftlichen
                Hoheitsgebietes?"

                "Die Inseln liegen im gemeinschaftlichen Hoheitsgebiet. Ihre
                Existenz ist mit der Existenz des Flusses untrennbar verbunden.
                Inseln teilen überlicherweise das rechtliche Schicksal des Flusses.
                Ist der Fluss ein gemeinschafticher, müssen es auch seine
                Inseln sein."

                "Sie [i.e. the islands] sind Teil des gemeinschaflichen Hoheitsgebietes."

                "Diejenigen Inseln, die sich seit 1816 möglicherweise erhalten
                haben, können rechtlich nicht anders behandelt werden als Inseln
                die sich neu gebildet haben."

                This is a home-made short translation:

                Nine of the 15 islands in Our and Sauer are new, and another two
                may be new.

                Should these new islands be divided between the states, or should
                they be regarded as part of the condominium?

                The islands are situated in the jointly owned territory. Their existence
                is undividedly coupled with the existence of the river. If the river
                is a condominium, then the islands must belong to that condominium.

                The islands that may have existed all the way since 1816 could
                juridically not be treated different from the newly formed islands.

                Collectors of border markings
                --
                Anyone of you who plan to visit the border area in question, should
                be aware that there are at least six interesting types of border
                markings. This has been previoulsy reported by Wolfgang, this
                is just a reminder that a visit to the condominium is not complete
                if you do not return with photographs of all kinds of markings.

                1. Border stones, some more interesting than others of course.
                2. Beautiful brass plates at some bridges.
                3. Colorful, not less beautiful, tin plates at other bridges.
                4. Circular, cast iron plates where the border crosses dry land
                at bridge heads, locks, etc.
                5. Metal bolts. These seem to be a lot more precious. There are
                only seven in total; six of them on a cliff north of Vianden, the
                seventh is in the road at Roth.
                6. Wallmarkings. These seem to be present only at the pier
                at defrlu.

                Mats






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              • acroorca2002
                ... wow mats & excuse me but i must have missed this also the first 2 times around so can you or anyone summarize what if anything we know about any atde condo
                Message 7 of 8 , Dec 8, 2001
                  --- In BoundaryPoint@y..., Mats Hessman <blofeld_es@y...> wrote:

                  >

                  > The "Grenzvermessung Deutschland-Luxemburg" rises the question on a possible condominium along

                  > the German-Austrian border, which may very well be the one

                  > that Brendan has commented on.



                  wow mats & excuse me but i must have missed this also the first 2 times around so can you or anyone summarize what if anything we know about any atde condo



                  > Islands in the rivers

                  > --

                  > The book says a lot about the islands. To sum it up: the

                  > islands of 1816 were divided by the states according to

                  > the Protocol of Emmerich. After 1816 several islands have

                  > disappeared, and others have formed.



                  but presumably no leads here to any present insular inhabitants or living boat people of delu



                  however even if not it occurs to me we may have a much better chance of finding our living condoite moored to or perhaps squatting on some of the reclaimed lands of the bidassoa wet esfr condo



                  m
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