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Re: [BoundaryPoint] Historic geographic anomalies

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  • Jesper & Nicolette Nielsen
    Well Mike I wrote to the webmaster of newafrica.com (the only address I could find on the site, the e-mail bounced back saying the guy s inbox was to full.
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 1, 2001
      Well Mike

      I wrote to the webmaster of newafrica.com (the only address I could find on the site, the e-mail bounced back saying the guy's inbox was to full. Left a note on the guestbook instead.

      Anyway thanks for the copies that arrived yesterday 31st. No they do not deliver mail on Sundays here, maybe the post was delivered initially to the neighbour.

      Anyway, I have located Brownlies here in Copenhagen, so I will go look there really soon.

      btw, the yellow paper - is that a lotto ticket?

      Jesper
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "michael donner" <m@...>
      To: <BoundaryPoint@egroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 1:14 AM
      Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Historic geographic anomalies


      > >
      > >
      > >on <http://www.newafrica.com/maps> http://www.newafrica.com/maps is a
      > >(C)2000 site, of which I would like to steal their map for "our" African
      > >Tripoint site. Very strange, but click on South Africa or Namibia - Walvis
      > >Bay is still an exclave.
      > >
      > >Jesper
      >
      > thats nuthin man
      > look what they did to western sahara
      > completely lost it in a sandstorm
      >
      >
      > & heres more truth & power to your ad
      >
      > maybe we could even repay them for the map by alerting them to such
      > improvements as we have been finding
      > & also by helping them exploit their neglected tripoint gold
      >
      > think of all the potential acutourism value we might even get to share with
      > them
      >
      > m
      >
      >
      >
      > also
      > not sure whether you were making a boundary or a point about the canal zone
      > but it certainly did split panama so neatly in 2 & so oddly backwards as well
      > that i couldnt tell her major clave from her minor clave
      > nor which end of the canal nor zone was which for that matter
      > as i worked a month in the zone for & with panamanians
      > while living in a panama slum with americans
      > when this late american ghost or ex exclave was still a living exclave
      >
      > i have a feeling too that the zone was actually completely surrounded by
      > panamanian lands & waters
      > making of it an enclave as well as an exclave
      > & making the 2 supposed halves of panama actually reunite just offshore
      > but i cant prove it
      >
      > the topological question of what territory is actually open ended & what
      > territory is actually enclosed or joined here is strangely reminiscent of
      > the question of the jungholz x or neck
      >
      > schematically this may in fact just be the flip side of that coin
      > or perhaps it is the whole toony for that loony
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • Mats Hessman
      ... I haven t really thought of how to define historic geographic anomalies, but let me try right away: Because they are historic they should be gone, in one
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 1, 2001
        David wrote:

        > > HISTORIC GEOGRAPHIC ANOMALIES
        > > --
        > > Please help fill the list!
        >
        > How do you define this category?

        I haven't really thought of how to define historic
        geographic anomalies, but let me try right away:
        Because they are historic they should be gone, in
        one way or another, but they should have been around
        long enough and recently enough to attract our
        attention, shouldn't they?

        I have seen the discussions on this list as to what
        constitutes an enclave or an exclave. For example,
        we don't seem to be able to agree upon whether Jungholz
        is an exclave or not. But it certainly is a geographic
        anomaly, isn't it? And a unique and very interesting
        one, too.

        So for me a georaphic anomaly is something that you
        see on a map, and instantly feel an urge to go there,
        this feeling being based on the appearance on the
        map alone.

        But an anomaly is not an ordinary country or a city,
        there has to be a certain degree of extraordinarity
        about the borders of the anomaly.

        In short: if you are predisposed in a way that we who
        contribute to this list all seem to be, you will
        know a geographic anomaly when you see one! (Unless
        your vision is clouded by birdwatching... :)

        Here is another one to put on the list, by the way:
        The Saar-area between Germany and France, that was
        finally merged with Germany (West) after a referendum.


        Arif wrote:

        > I am sorry I haven't been able to put the Berlin
        > exclaves online.

        I'll be waiting eagerly!

        > Mats, I made a mistake when I wrote exclaves.
        > There is only one exclave in Belgium.

        I understand.

        > I have better paper maps of
        > almost all the exclaves that you put online, so I can
        > send them to you if you give me your snail-mail
        > address.

        Yes, please! Your unexpected courtesy really surprises
        me, and I'll be very grateful.

        Please send to:
        Mats Hessman
        Ideon
        S-223 70 Lund
        Sweden

        Please don't hesitate to include maps of the Berlin
        exclaves, should you have any.

        And please tell me what I can do for you in return.

        > Talking about Walvis Bay, you know about the
        > twelve tiny coastal islands of Namibia which were
        > South African, right?

        I didn't know. Thanks for the info.

        Mats
      • Arif Samad
        Mike - I thought Georgia interrupted South Carolina s march to Pacific, so thought it was an exclave. But, as I have mentioned, I did not get to look at the
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 1, 2001
          Mike - I thought Georgia interrupted South Carolina's
          march to Pacific, so thought it was an exclave. But,
          as I have mentioned, I did not get to look at the book
          for a long time. However, I am pretty sure Eastern
          New York did block Massachusetts' claim and thus there
          should be a detached territory there. Can you check
          it out?

          David - By my strict definition of exclave, which
          means an integral territory. Baikanour Cosmodrome, a
          leased territory, would not be an exclave. A leased
          territory could not be integral. I would say, though,
          anytime a lease does not mention that the host
          territory retains ownership, shouldn't we assume that
          ownership is transfered too? If that's not so, we
          would have been saying Hong Kong stopped at Boundary
          Street, which almost nobody thinks. Everything in
          life is temporary, and a leased territory should not
          be penalized for bring temporary. I do not know if
          the ownership of the land was transferred or not in
          the case of Porkkala, so I can't really say anything
          about it.

          Mats - I am not sure which catalog number you needed,
          so I will just give you the address
          http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/w for the catalog of New
          York Public Library, where I found my books to
          photocopy from. Put the words you need in the blank
          space. You should find some catalog numbers. I am
          not sure if it is the right number or not. I put the
          area and population of Berlin exclaves
          http://members.aol.com/marismits/Berlin.htm along with
          the approximate locations. I have photocopies from
          various books and maps that fill a whole box, so I
          advise you to give me an area whose maps you want
          before I can send a mail. I do not have great maps of
          Berlin, but I can send you the maps I do have.

          Arif


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        • michael donner
          dear arif glad you pursed this as it is interesting ... the boundary between ma & ny was controversial from early times & was not agreed upon in any sense til
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 1, 2001
            dear arif

            glad you pursed this
            as it is interesting

            >
            >Mike - I thought Georgia interrupted South Carolina's
            >march to Pacific, so thought it was an exclave. But,
            >as I have mentioned, I did not get to look at the book
            >for a long time. However, I am pretty sure Eastern
            >New York did block Massachusetts' claim and thus there
            >should be a detached territory there. Can you check
            >it out?

            the boundary between ma & ny was controversial from early times
            & was not agreed upon in any sense til 1773
            presumably in london particulars unknown
            nor acknowledged by congress til 1785
            nor marked til 1787
            all substantially as at present

            the demarcation had to be performed by a federal commission tho
            evidently owing to the vehemence of the disagreement even then

            since all sovereign claims to western lands by ma beyond the mississippi
            were extinguished in 1783
            & all those west of ny in 1785
            & all those within ny in 1786
            it sure looks as tho ma was forced to retract her western limits
            progressively eastward from the pacific to the taconics
            & as tho her boundary with ny could not be drawn on the ground til she
            actually consented once & for all to the entire truncation
            as a matter of complicated political expediency & compromise

            it is possible tho that someone might have believed & might still believe
            based on the above data that ma really did have a disconnected western
            territory at some time between 1773 & 1787

            so maybe we should call this type a vanishing & reappearing ghost exclave
            if any

            plainly tho it is not as clear or definite as those of ct
            even if i am prejudiced

            m
          • michael donner
            dear mats ... actually we have reason to hope it is not unique for it may prove to be 1 of perhaps 5 similar international boundary crosses aka binational
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 1, 2001
              dear mats

              >I have seen the discussions on this list as to what
              >constitutes an enclave or an exclave. For example,
              >we don't seem to be able to agree upon whether Jungholz
              >is an exclave or not. But it certainly is a geographic
              >anomaly, isn't it? And a unique and very interesting
              >one, too.

              actually we have reason to hope it is not unique
              for it may prove to be 1 of perhaps 5 similar international boundary crosses
              aka binational quadripoints
              with probably 1 or 2 or 3 more like it in baarle
              & likewise in bengal

              now with your & jespers ability to read small measurements in baarle & to
              visit the scene relatively easily
              you may be the first to positively confirm some of these

              i believe one of them may be marked on the ground by a cobblestone cross

              good luck & vis tecum
              m
            • michael donner
              thanx & good news jesper that was uncannily fine tuning by both of us to complete the millennium pass by snail mail on a sunday yes the yellow paper was
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 1, 2001
                thanx & good news jesper

                that was uncannily fine tuning by both of us to complete the millennium
                pass by snail mail on a sunday

                yes the yellow paper was designed to be a lottery ticket of sorts

                it is 1 of a numbered limited edition of 1000 handouts
                announcing the unexpectedly early arrival of the millennium a few years ago
                as determined by actual chronological evidence & computations
                of which i managed to give away a few hundred copies on ground hog day 2
                feb 1997 in punxsutawney pennsylvania
                weather & prognostication capital of the world

                since it is the earliest known authentic millennium souvenir
                i figure it can only gain in value now along with other such collectable
                memorabilia of this more recently wonderful year & day that was

                the text is at http://www.mohawk.net/~barbaria/groundhog.html
                & i would be glad to mail a copy to other members hopefully bearing some
                permutation of whatever personally lucky number they may request
                as i have hundreds left

                m


                >
                >Well Mike
                >
                >I wrote to the webmaster of newafrica.com (the only address I could find
                >on the site, the e-mail bounced back saying the guy's inbox was to full.
                >Left a note on the guestbook instead.
                >
                >Anyway thanks for the copies that arrived yesterday 31st. No they do not
                >deliver mail on Sundays here, maybe the post was delivered initially to
                >the neighbour.
                >
                >Anyway, I have located Brownlies here in Copenhagen, so I will go look
                >there really soon.
                >
                >btw, the yellow paper - is that a lotto ticket?
                >
                >Jesper
              • Brendan Whyte
                ... No, the Cypriot bases are Brit sovereign terriroty. All cyprus was British until 1960. Some (ie 99%) was made independent as the Rep of Cyprus. The rest
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 2, 2001
                  > David, Porkkala was a soviet (I think the land
                  >was leased) base in Finland. It is like Guantanamo or
                  >the Cypriot bases or the treaty ports in China. Even
                  >Panama Canal Zone was similar.

                  No, the Cypriot bases are Brit sovereign terriroty.
                  All cyprus was British until 1960. Some (ie 99%) was made independent as the
                  Rep of Cyprus. The rest stayed British. Thus these bases are NOT like
                  Guantanamo or Porkkala, in that the Cypriots have not leased them to the UK.
                  When the brits want to leave they will give them to Cyprus (they can't sell
                  them to someone else), but they are British sovereign territory.
                  Thus the bases are usually labelled UKSB: UK Sovereign Base, or UK Sovereign
                  Military base.

                  Brendan
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