Re: [BoundaryPoint] Historic geographic anomalies
- Well Mike
I wrote to the webmaster of newafrica.com (the only address I could find on the site, the e-mail bounced back saying the guy's inbox was to full. Left a note on the guestbook instead.
Anyway thanks for the copies that arrived yesterday 31st. No they do not deliver mail on Sundays here, maybe the post was delivered initially to the neighbour.
Anyway, I have located Brownlies here in Copenhagen, so I will go look there really soon.
btw, the yellow paper - is that a lotto ticket?
----- Original Message -----
From: "michael donner" <m@...>
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 1:14 AM
Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Historic geographic anomalies
> >on <http://www.newafrica.com/maps> http://www.newafrica.com/maps is a
> >(C)2000 site, of which I would like to steal their map for "our" African
> >Tripoint site. Very strange, but click on South Africa or Namibia - Walvis
> >Bay is still an exclave.
> thats nuthin man
> look what they did to western sahara
> completely lost it in a sandstorm
> & heres more truth & power to your ad
> maybe we could even repay them for the map by alerting them to such
> improvements as we have been finding
> & also by helping them exploit their neglected tripoint gold
> think of all the potential acutourism value we might even get to share with
> not sure whether you were making a boundary or a point about the canal zone
> but it certainly did split panama so neatly in 2 & so oddly backwards as well
> that i couldnt tell her major clave from her minor clave
> nor which end of the canal nor zone was which for that matter
> as i worked a month in the zone for & with panamanians
> while living in a panama slum with americans
> when this late american ghost or ex exclave was still a living exclave
> i have a feeling too that the zone was actually completely surrounded by
> panamanian lands & waters
> making of it an enclave as well as an exclave
> & making the 2 supposed halves of panama actually reunite just offshore
> but i cant prove it
> the topological question of what territory is actually open ended & what
> territory is actually enclosed or joined here is strangely reminiscent of
> the question of the jungholz x or neck
> schematically this may in fact just be the flip side of that coin
> or perhaps it is the whole toony for that loony
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- David wrote:
> > HISTORIC GEOGRAPHIC ANOMALIESI haven't really thought of how to define historic
> > --
> > Please help fill the list!
> How do you define this category?
geographic anomalies, but let me try right away:
Because they are historic they should be gone, in
one way or another, but they should have been around
long enough and recently enough to attract our
attention, shouldn't they?
I have seen the discussions on this list as to what
constitutes an enclave or an exclave. For example,
we don't seem to be able to agree upon whether Jungholz
is an exclave or not. But it certainly is a geographic
anomaly, isn't it? And a unique and very interesting
So for me a georaphic anomaly is something that you
see on a map, and instantly feel an urge to go there,
this feeling being based on the appearance on the
But an anomaly is not an ordinary country or a city,
there has to be a certain degree of extraordinarity
about the borders of the anomaly.
In short: if you are predisposed in a way that we who
contribute to this list all seem to be, you will
know a geographic anomaly when you see one! (Unless
your vision is clouded by birdwatching... :)
Here is another one to put on the list, by the way:
The Saar-area between Germany and France, that was
finally merged with Germany (West) after a referendum.
> I am sorry I haven't been able to put the BerlinI'll be waiting eagerly!
> exclaves online.
> Mats, I made a mistake when I wrote exclaves.I understand.
> There is only one exclave in Belgium.
> I have better paper maps ofYes, please! Your unexpected courtesy really surprises
> almost all the exclaves that you put online, so I can
> send them to you if you give me your snail-mail
me, and I'll be very grateful.
Please send to:
S-223 70 Lund
Please don't hesitate to include maps of the Berlin
exclaves, should you have any.
And please tell me what I can do for you in return.
> Talking about Walvis Bay, you know about theI didn't know. Thanks for the info.
> twelve tiny coastal islands of Namibia which were
> South African, right?
- Mike - I thought Georgia interrupted South Carolina's
march to Pacific, so thought it was an exclave. But,
as I have mentioned, I did not get to look at the book
for a long time. However, I am pretty sure Eastern
New York did block Massachusetts' claim and thus there
should be a detached territory there. Can you check
David - By my strict definition of exclave, which
means an integral territory. Baikanour Cosmodrome, a
leased territory, would not be an exclave. A leased
territory could not be integral. I would say, though,
anytime a lease does not mention that the host
territory retains ownership, shouldn't we assume that
ownership is transfered too? If that's not so, we
would have been saying Hong Kong stopped at Boundary
Street, which almost nobody thinks. Everything in
life is temporary, and a leased territory should not
be penalized for bring temporary. I do not know if
the ownership of the land was transferred or not in
the case of Porkkala, so I can't really say anything
Mats - I am not sure which catalog number you needed,
so I will just give you the address
http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/w for the catalog of New
York Public Library, where I found my books to
photocopy from. Put the words you need in the blank
space. You should find some catalog numbers. I am
not sure if it is the right number or not. I put the
area and population of Berlin exclaves
http://members.aol.com/marismits/Berlin.htm along with
the approximate locations. I have photocopies from
various books and maps that fill a whole box, so I
advise you to give me an area whose maps you want
before I can send a mail. I do not have great maps of
Berlin, but I can send you the maps I do have.
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- dear arif
glad you pursed this
as it is interesting
>the boundary between ma & ny was controversial from early times
>Mike - I thought Georgia interrupted South Carolina's
>march to Pacific, so thought it was an exclave. But,
>as I have mentioned, I did not get to look at the book
>for a long time. However, I am pretty sure Eastern
>New York did block Massachusetts' claim and thus there
>should be a detached territory there. Can you check
& was not agreed upon in any sense til 1773
presumably in london particulars unknown
nor acknowledged by congress til 1785
nor marked til 1787
all substantially as at present
the demarcation had to be performed by a federal commission tho
evidently owing to the vehemence of the disagreement even then
since all sovereign claims to western lands by ma beyond the mississippi
were extinguished in 1783
& all those west of ny in 1785
& all those within ny in 1786
it sure looks as tho ma was forced to retract her western limits
progressively eastward from the pacific to the taconics
& as tho her boundary with ny could not be drawn on the ground til she
actually consented once & for all to the entire truncation
as a matter of complicated political expediency & compromise
it is possible tho that someone might have believed & might still believe
based on the above data that ma really did have a disconnected western
territory at some time between 1773 & 1787
so maybe we should call this type a vanishing & reappearing ghost exclave
plainly tho it is not as clear or definite as those of ct
even if i am prejudiced
- dear mats
>I have seen the discussions on this list as to whatactually we have reason to hope it is not unique
>constitutes an enclave or an exclave. For example,
>we don't seem to be able to agree upon whether Jungholz
>is an exclave or not. But it certainly is a geographic
>anomaly, isn't it? And a unique and very interesting
for it may prove to be 1 of perhaps 5 similar international boundary crosses
aka binational quadripoints
with probably 1 or 2 or 3 more like it in baarle
& likewise in bengal
now with your & jespers ability to read small measurements in baarle & to
visit the scene relatively easily
you may be the first to positively confirm some of these
i believe one of them may be marked on the ground by a cobblestone cross
good luck & vis tecum
- thanx & good news jesper
that was uncannily fine tuning by both of us to complete the millennium
pass by snail mail on a sunday
yes the yellow paper was designed to be a lottery ticket of sorts
it is 1 of a numbered limited edition of 1000 handouts
announcing the unexpectedly early arrival of the millennium a few years ago
as determined by actual chronological evidence & computations
of which i managed to give away a few hundred copies on ground hog day 2
feb 1997 in punxsutawney pennsylvania
weather & prognostication capital of the world
since it is the earliest known authentic millennium souvenir
i figure it can only gain in value now along with other such collectable
memorabilia of this more recently wonderful year & day that was
the text is at http://www.mohawk.net/~barbaria/groundhog.html
& i would be glad to mail a copy to other members hopefully bearing some
permutation of whatever personally lucky number they may request
as i have hundreds left
>I wrote to the webmaster of newafrica.com (the only address I could find
>on the site, the e-mail bounced back saying the guy's inbox was to full.
>Left a note on the guestbook instead.
>Anyway thanks for the copies that arrived yesterday 31st. No they do not
>deliver mail on Sundays here, maybe the post was delivered initially to
>Anyway, I have located Brownlies here in Copenhagen, so I will go look
>there really soon.
>btw, the yellow paper - is that a lotto ticket?
> David, Porkkala was a soviet (I think the landNo, the Cypriot bases are Brit sovereign terriroty.
>was leased) base in Finland. It is like Guantanamo or
>the Cypriot bases or the treaty ports in China. Even
>Panama Canal Zone was similar.
All cyprus was British until 1960. Some (ie 99%) was made independent as the
Rep of Cyprus. The rest stayed British. Thus these bases are NOT like
Guantanamo or Porkkala, in that the Cypriots have not leased them to the UK.
When the brits want to leave they will give them to Cyprus (they can't sell
them to someone else), but they are British sovereign territory.
Thus the bases are usually labelled UKSB: UK Sovereign Base, or UK Sovereign
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